Gen V Stock Belanger Arrow Stage 1

[dewilmoth]

Come on boys. Settle down. I didn't remember what I'd ordered from Belanger except that I wanted to pass emissions. What I was sold did exactly that. No smell and no check engine light.

The sound is awesome, the sill temps are half or less, and the headers are super nice.

You can't go trashing a company because a couple guys were confused on what they ordered. Belanger's website isn't even updated to show a Gen V on it. Lou is an old school guy who can build some great stuff. It's partly our fault if we didn't fully understand what we were ordering.

I would prefer a nice website with diagrams and photos of the available options, and a list of pros and cons for each, but alas, that's not what we get.

There's enough of us on these forums to supply all the information that a buyer would need, but it's scattered around so much that it's very difficult to find, search function or not. That's why there are so many threads rehashing the same topics over and over (like this one!!). I just wanted to share my personal experiences in case they're different than others who don't share as much information. There's some good stuff in this thread and I think it helped people learn a few things.

dewilmoth, I hope it helps you make a more-informed purchasing decision, but it's not fair to immediately condemn a company because the 50hp you thought you just bolted on isn't there.

I'm going to spend some more money and try some other suggestions made here and post the results. Over time, this thread too will become lost in the noise, and we'll see many more like it, but as long as it's there, maybe it will help someone.

Fair enough, I may have come across as harsher than intended. I just would be irritated if I went through the effort and expense of upgrading my car to find out I have been duped. But if you weren’t sold high flow cats, my point is invalid.

[Voice of Reason]

I remember that thread:

https://driveviper.com/forums/thread...ight=Magnaflow

I stand by my snarky comment

It's not only Belanger, read Scot's test/thread

Is there another test thread that I’m missing? Because the one I posted above only calls out Belanger as using questionable cats.

[Bryan Savage]

I remember that thread:

https://driveviper.com/forums/thread...ight=Magnaflow

I stand by my snarky comment

That's a great thread!! I try to keep up and have no idea how I missed that! Thanks for the post!

Fair enough, I may have come across as harsher than intended. I just would be irritated if I went through the effort and expense of upgrading my car to find out I have been duped. But if you weren’t sold high flow cats, my point is invalid.

You're not wrong though. I definitely didn't get what I hoped to get, but it sounds like it was my fault for not understanding what I was asking for.

Or for having unrealistic expectations of the results!!

[Steve M]

You're not wrong though. I definitely didn't get what I hoped to get, but it sounds like it was my fault for not understanding what I was asking for.

Or for having unrealistic expectations of the results!!

You are a victim of early Gen 5 issues, mainly the lack of a tuning option until well after the Gen 5 was released. Lou was trying to make a header system that would work (i.e. not throw codes) with the OEM PCM since there was no other option for quite some time, which meant that he had to use a more restrictive catalytic converter to keep the PCM in check. I don't think people realized until recently just how less-than-ideal those cats were, but when you think back, it kinda makes sense - if you need things to function like OEM, you are going to have to leave some performance on the table. Ideally, Lou would offer a truly high flow option (and he probably could), but I'm not sure if it is worth his time since it is another thing to keep track of, and it could lead to a lot of confusion when placing/fulfilling an order.

I ordered high flow cats through Lou a couple years ago, and they threw codes within about 3 drive cycles for catalytic converter inefficiency on my Gen 4. Due to that, I'm going to assume they are "high flow", but I have no way of knowing for sure - the substrate appeared to be metallic just as I had ordered, but there are no part numbers and no other indications as to where they came from. I know he isn't sitting there in his basement spinning cats in his spare time, so he had to source them from somewhere, but where I have no idea. I guess it doesn't really matter anyway - my only other option would be to run without cats, but I'm not all that into smelling like 1970 when I step out of my car, and I personally think that catless cars sound like a bag of ass. The Viper V-10, IMO, doesn't need any help sounding worse.

[Jack B]

You are a victim of early Gen 5 issues, mainly the lack of a tuning option until well after the Gen 5 was released. Lou was trying to make a header system that would work (i.e. not throw codes) with the OEM PCM since there was no other option for quite some time, which meant that he had to use a more restrictive catalytic converter to keep the PCM in check. I don't think people realized until recently just how less-than-ideal those cats were, but when you think back, it kinda makes sense - if you need things to function like OEM, you are going to have to leave some performance on the table. Ideally, Lou would offer a truly high flow option (and he probably could), but I'm not sure if it is worth his time since it is another thing to keep track of, and it could lead to a lot of confusion when placing/fulfilling an order.

I ordered high flow cats through Lou a couple years ago, and they threw codes within about 3 drive cycles for catalytic converter inefficiency on my Gen 4. Due to that, I'm going to assume they are "high flow", but I have no way of knowing for sure - the substrate appeared to be metallic just as I had ordered, but there are no part numbers and no other indications as to where they came from. I know he isn't sitting there in his basement spinning cats in his spare time, so he had to source them from somewhere, but where I have no idea. I guess it doesn't really matter anyway - my only other option would be to run without cats, but I'm not all that into smelling like 1970 when I step out of my car, and I personally think that catless cars sound like a bag of ass. The Viper V-10, IMO, doesn't need any help sounding worse.

Steve:

I think that the "no cats" and smell in the car is over blown. I have run my G2 and G5 without cats and do not find it an issue. i do not notice a change in the cab environment and I drive a lot with the windows down. Even in traffic, I do not notice an increase in the "smell".
My wife cannot tolerate the exhaust smell and is forever putting the windows up and down when we are in my jeep on the road due to other cars, she has not one time noted an exhaust problem when she is in the viper, believe me she would not hesitate to let me know there was a problem.

[Bryan Savage]

Finally got around to finishing the replacement of the non-high-flow cats Belanger mid-pipes with catless Belanger mid-pipes. Will be heading to the dyno soon, but have a look at the photos. These pipes started out nice and shiny, but got brown and gross after some decent usage. To note that the catless pipes are full 3-inch, whereas the catted ones have a couple oddball neckdowns.

IMG_20190222_210307 2.jpg
IMG_20190222_210351 2.jpg
IMG_20190222_210728 2.jpg
IMG_20190222_210903~2 2.jpg

Pipes with mufflers: 14 lbs. Catless pipes: 11 lbs.

And here's a video of cold starts. The decibel meter is out of focus on the cold start I shot tonight, and I'm just too lazy to do it again tomorrow night.

[ViperGeorge]

Won't the smell from having no cats bother you? One of our club members has a Gen 2 without cats and no one ever wants to be behind him as the smell is overpowering.

[Bryan Savage]

Won't the smell from having no cats bother you? One of our club members has a Gen 2 without cats and no one ever wants to be behind him as the smell is overpowering.

I hope not, but methinks it will. From the rest of the thread, I did this solely for science. When I go back to the dyno, only having changed this one variable, I expect to see a distinctly measurable power gain across the board. If these power lines get lost in the noise of all my other efforts, I'm going to declare the entire bolt-on industry a crock of shit, and demand all my money back for all these parts. lol

And since you mentioned it, George, as a VOA Forums exclusive, here's the uncut video of the catless startup. Not shown is me opening the windows on the opposite side of the garage and letting it air out for a few minutes before closing up shop.

[Arizona Vipers]

I hope not, but methinks it will. From the rest of the thread, I did this solely for science. When I go back to the dyno, only having changed this one variable, I expect to see a distinctly measurable power gain across the board. If these power lines get lost in the noise of all my other efforts, I'm going to declare the entire bolt-on industry a crock of shit, and demand all my money back for all these parts. lol

And since you mentioned it, George, as a VOA Forums exclusive, here's the uncut video of the catless startup. Not shown is me opening the windows on the opposite side of the garage and letting it air out for a few minutes before closing up shop.

You've got the best sig on the forum!

[parabs]

In for results!!

[wakebum2507]

In for results as well. I've got HFC's on mine with the 3" side pipes, and i'm curious what I'm losing with the cats.

[serpent]

Bryan, i thought you went with your previous setup to pass emissions. I didnt read the entire thread but you went catless so no more emissions?
I want to do H&C eventually here in cali. #wannaberacecar

[J TNT]

Good Luck with your Testing Bryan , looking forward to your results !

[Bryan Savage]

Bryan, i thought you went with your previous setup to pass emissions. I didnt read the entire thread but you went catless so no more emissions?
I want to do H&C eventually here in cali. #wannaberacecar

Welllll yeah, about that. Before I had the Arrow controller, I wanted to not have a MIL staring me in the face. But since installing the Arrow, I know that won't be a problem anymore. I still care for the environment, but I care about my scientific experiment more at the moment.

In fact, the last inspection I had was with the MIL on. The car passed anyway. I was like "WTF, Dodge Dealership??" and they were like "We only need to verify that the car has one. It doesn't matter if it's on." I couldn't believe it. That would not have worked back in Colorado.

Here's all that's required for me in this county. http://www.ahs2.dep.state.pa.us/aq_a...ions/test.aspx
Lycoming Emissions.JPG

If I end up hating the catless setup, or if the power gains are not present, I'll switch back to the catted one.

[wakebum2507]

When do you plan on getting it on the dyno for the delta, Bryan?

[Bryan Savage]

When do you plan on getting it on the dyno for the delta, Bryan?

Just made an appointment for next Tuesday, March 5th, at 2pm EDT.

PREPARE FOR SCIENCE.

Guess I'd better take the car out before then and make sure my exhaust doesn't fall off. I was definitely probably not drinking beer whilst installing it.

[Vipes]

In for results as well. I've got HFC's on mine with the 3" side pipes, and i'm curious what I'm losing with the cats.

I've been told by one of the shops that does a lot of H/C builds that it will be 10-15 RWHP less on a H/C car with HFC vs none. I would guess you would lose even less than that with the stock heads/cam. The problem is not all HFC's are created equal, some are a lot more restrictive than others. I couldn't take the smell anymore so I went back to HFC's, it's worth the small loss of power for me personally. I'm looking forward to Bryan's test using the Arrow PCM.

[J TNT]

These cats came highly recommended by a few of the SRT Engineers , with minimal loss's .
https://vibrantperformance.com/catal...Path=1527_1326

[Bryan Savage]

These cats came highly recommended by a few of the SRT Engineers , with minimal loss's .
https://vibrantperformance.com/catal...Path=1527_1326

Thanks Jay!

This is starting to get pricey. I'm not sure if I want to build another exhaust. It will all be determined by the dyno results and if I can stand the smell, or if I'm sending busloads of school children to hospital because they got behind me on the highway. lol

[Bryan Savage]

ZomboMeme_25022019173944.jpg

Dammit Ron... LOL

[Jack B]

Just made an appointment for next Tuesday, March 5th, at 2pm EDT.

PREPARE FOR SCIENCE.

Guess I'd better take the car out before then and make sure my exhaust doesn't fall off. I was definitely probably not drinking beer whilst installing it.

Make sure you document the IAT on all pulls. It is strange, but, the highest numbers seem to come from runs 3 or 4. The viper torque does not like smooth rollers. If you ask for the file you can plot rpm versus mph, this will allow you to verify there is no slippage, therefore, lower than actual power.

[Bryan Savage]

Make sure you document the IAT on all pulls. It is strange, but, the highest numbers seem to come from runs 3 or 4. The viper torque does not like smooth rollers. If you ask for the file you can plot rpm versus mph, this will allow you to verify there is no slippage, therefore, lower than actual power.

Thanks Jack. I remember that from last time. I'll ask for a speed curve too, and see if I get get my OBD Link MX to plot IATs. The forecast shows it may not even get above freezing that day, so the IATs might end up super low. The dyno is near a garage door which they'll have open, or else the fumes will kill everybody. lol

[Jack B]

You will be fine merely noting the IAT from the dash. If you ask for the dyno file you can download the free dynojet software, I am assuming it is a dynojet.

[Topplayer]

very interested in the results

[ky13]

Sounds great, Bryan! In for results.