Gen V Stock Belanger Arrow Stage 1

[TrackAire]

Regardless of what single high flow cat you use (or the Magnaflow you've got now), even if you don't have an MIL now, you will in 2000 to 2500 miles. Just my experience as the tiny cats cannot handle the heat and literally wear out and become inefficient. I look at aftermarket "high flow" cats as a wear item that just does not last as long as the stock dual setup. If they really do last like the originals, have the supplier put it in a written guarantee......I'm guessing nobody will. Hard to make a grapefruit sized cat last long with 600 hp blasting through it.

In my experience the side sills will still get hot even with high flow cats if you're on the gas under load for a long time. An example would be climbing long gradual mountain grades at 80-ish mph for 15 or more minutes. I've never felt my side sills that hot, even after track sessions.

Good luck with your project, I'm sure you'll find out where the lost hp is.

[Bryan Savage]

Brian, as others said odd numbers with those mods. The headers/exhaust and ECU should give you 50 more rwhp. Not sure how much those cats hold you back but I'll trust Scott's answer. As to the cats, check with Lou and maybe he can swap them out for you?

Also, octane matters especially with the Arrow controller. While they say 93 minimum, try a mix of 100 and get to 95 octane. good luck, Mike

That's an interesting suggestion. I found some 110 octane leaded racing fuel, but other than that, it's E85 or 93 RON. It would be fun to try something higher, but unless there's timing being retarded due to knock, do these cars check fuel octane and modify the ignition maps to take advantage of higher octane fuels? That sounds like something only a custom tune would do.

I would love to see if you swap out the cats what your gains are, I can't personally believe the cats are holding back 50rwhp.

It's in the works, sir!! And I agree. It seems unlikely, but I'm here to learn! Rather than listen to everyone else who's had the same problems, I have to stumble my way through on my own. That's human nature, I think. Or at least, my nature.

decrease in temp comes from removal of secondary cat. Primary cat is replaced with HF. My belanger exhaust cat looked different than the one you had when i installed it last year

Here's the uncropped photo I grabbed the catalytic converter photo from. I must have optioned for a full-functioning cat.

2017-08-19 Belanger System.jpg

Regardless of what single high flow cat you use (or the Magnaflow you've got now), even if you don't have an MIL now, you will in 2000 to 2500 miles. Just my experience as the tiny cats cannot handle the heat and literally wear out and become inefficient. I look at aftermarket "high flow" cats as a wear item that just does not last as long as the stock dual setup. If they really do last like the originals, have the supplier put it in a written guarantee......I'm guessing nobody will. Hard to make a grapefruit sized cat last long with 600 hp blasting through it.

In my experience the side sills will still get hot even with high flow cats if you're on the gas under load for a long time. An example would be climbing long gradual mountain grades at 80-ish mph for 15 or more minutes. I've never felt my side sills that hot, even after track sessions.

Good luck with your project, I'm sure you'll find out where the lost hp is.

Thanks sir!! Also, this system has been on the car for over a year and has at least 10,000 miles on it. So far so good, but I do admit to driving like an old man if I'm not on the track. All highway miles mostly, so take that 600hp and knock it down to 50hp. lol

But yeah, under load and on the track, the sills still get hot, but it's nothing compared to the factory exhaust temps. I'll bring my FLIR on the next Viper cruise and see what's what, versus someone with stock exhaust.

[ForTehNguyen]

yea mine doesnt have that clamshell looking design, it looked more like a smooth canister like in here:

https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/sho...12&postcount=3

[RedTanRT/10]

That's an interesting suggestion. I found some 110 octane leaded racing fuel, but other than that, it's E85 or 93 RON. It would be fun to try something higher, but unless there's timing being retarded due to knock, do these cars check fuel octane and modify the ignition maps to take advantage of higher octane fuels? That sounds like something only a custom tune would do.

The ECU pull's timing for knock. G5's guys all talk about the IAT temp pulling timing. The reason you use a catch can is to keep oil out of the intake (which reduces octane) and retards timing. Don't ever use leaded fuel with cats. Here's the Sunoco link for PA, not sure where you live. You can also google 100 octane fuel in your city or county. If you can get 93 at the pump, try a 33% mix of 100 before you dyno. Dan Cragin always told me that the Arrow ECU really wants 95 octane.

https://www.sunocoracefuels.com/fuel...fid=&range=300

[Jack B]

The ECU pull's timing for knock. G5's guys all talk about the IAT temp pulling timing. The reason you use a catch can is to keep oil out of the intake (which reduces octane) and retards timing. Don't ever use leaded fuel with cats. Here's the Sunoco link for PA, not sure where you live. You can also google 100 octane fuel in your city or county. If you can get 93 at the pump, try a 33% mix of 100 before you dyno. Dan Cragin always told me that the Arrow ECU really wants 95 octane.

https://www.sunocoracefuels.com/fuel...fid=&range=300

A little to add, timing is pulled for multiple reasons, the main problem areas are:

1. A massive amount of timing is pulled by the IAT sensor/pcm. Once you get an IAT in the mid 90's your hp is rapidly declining.

2. The coolant temp sensor/pcm only pulls a few degrees until the temps go extremely high.

3. The knock retard function is totally separate from the timing pulled by the IAT function. It is harder to assign the amount of timing pulled by the knock sensors. It is also hard to track because it is an enhanced PID and very few scan tools can pick it up on the G5, typically you need the dealers Witech to log the knock retard. HPT can log the knock retard on the G4, but, to the best of my knowledge they never went to that step on the G5.

If he can, perhaps Scot can add a comment on how the Arrow controller utilizes the knock retard.

[v10tt]

I can tell you my last tuner (Ken B, Palm beach Dyno)was able to pull timing on (2) of my cylinders( while keeping total advance the same on the timing tables) by logging Knock while dyno tuning with HP tuners. Guys is a wizard with HP tuners. Picked up power everywhere.

3. The knock retard function is totally separate from the timing pulled by the IAT function. It is harder to assign the amount of timing pulled by the knock sensors. It is also hard to track because it is an enhanced PID and very few scan tools can pick it up on the G5, typically you need the dealers Witech to log the knock retard. HPT can log the knock retard on the G4, but, to the best of my knowledge they never went to that step on the G5.

[EX1]

Thanks for sharing your findings. Let us know what happens when you swap the cats out!

[SilveRT8]

Sorry those are not high flow cats
They are dual ceramic core cats manufactured by magnaflow.
Compared to a high flow cat you are leaving 20 rear wheel hp on the table.

Hi Scott,
On my '16 GTC /TA2 group, I also have Belanger Headers with HF Cats necked down to 2 1/2'' to fit the stock mufflers size. Here is a pic of my cat which looks like the magnaflow non HF cat. Can you confirm on this and do you sell the High flow cat also necked down to 2 1/2'' or should I be better off also changing the mufflers to a 3'' inlet size to fit with your version of the cats? I would not like to leave 20 RWHP on the table. !

[Voice of Reason]

But what about the pickle!

IMO it’s pretty shit of Belanger to be selling HF systems with crap cats. Just another reason to go ARH and not worry about it!

[kriskyk]

I can tell you my last tuner (Ken B, Palm beach Dyno)was able to pull timing on (2) of my cylinders( while keeping total advance the same on the timing tables) by logging Knock while dyno tuning with HP tuners. Guys is a wizard with HP tuners. Picked up power everywhere.

Vipers have individual cylinder knock and timing controls from the factory / hp tuners?

[Steve M]

Vipers have individual cylinder knock and timing controls from the factory / hp tuners?

Yes.

[Jack B]

Yes.

Wasn't there a post a while back where they could not tell which cylinder was knocking because there was a single sensor per two cylinders.

[Jack B]

But what about the pickle!

IMO it’s pretty shit of Belanger to be selling HF systems with crap cats. Just another reason to go ARH and not worry about it!

Look back at Scot's thread where they did some research on available cats, they then tested several of them. I do not think it was only Belanger.

[kriskyk]

Yes.

That's pretty awesome especially for factory. To bad the MAF calibrations don't scale...

[Steve M]

That's pretty awesome especially for factory. To bad the MAF calibrations don't scale...

For what application?

[kriskyk]

For what application?

Boost, if i recall anything over 7 psi your pushing it


Correction meant MAP not MAF doohh...

[Steve M]

Boost, if i recall anything over 7 psi your pushing it

Yeah...these PCMs are a bit quirky. Work pretty well NA though.

[Jack B]

Yeah...these PCMs are a bit quirky. Work pretty well NA though.

Steve:

I looked back in the manual, there are only two Knock Sensors. they terminate into connectors D1534 and D1535. They then terminate in the PCM at cavities C34/C25 and cavities C26/C35. They may give data for ten cylinders, however, they must work directionally, probably a guess on noisy cars. I have a 2013 and 2014 manual, the data is the same in both.

[Steve M]

Steve:

I looked back in the manual, there are only two Knock Sensors. they terminate into connectors D1534 and D1535. They then terminate in the PCM at cavities C34/C25 and cavities C26/C35. They may give data for ten cylinders, however, they must work directionally, probably a guess on noisy cars. I have a 2013 and 2014 manual, the data is the same in both.

That tracks with my understanding of them...individual cylinders would be assigned to a sensor, and the sensor would only listen for the different cylinders during fixed windows throughout the crank's rotation.

[Scot@Prefix]

Hi Scott,
On my '16 GTC /TA2 group, I also have Belanger Headers with HF Cats necked down to 2 1/2'' to fit the stock mufflers size. Here is a pic of my cat which looks like the magnaflow non HF cat. Can you confirm on this and do you sell the High flow cat also necked down to 2 1/2'' or should I be better off also changing the mufflers to a 3'' inlet size to fit with your version of the cats? I would not like to leave 20 RWHP on the table. !

Yes that is a standard cat, keep in mind it is probably higher flowing than the stock cat system! Also it may not throw a code so no CEL, easy installation without issues.
True high flow cats will throw a code.

What we do is take a high flow cat with 2 1/2 inlet/outlet and cut the one end to allow the 3 inch pipe to connect.
Its a little bit of fab work, we also install the heat shield that was there!

There was a long post of the forum about this, with pictures, dyno tests, and lots of good info!!

[Voice of Reason]

Look back at Scot's thread where they did some research on available cats, they then tested several of them. I do not think it was only Belanger.

I remember that thread:

https://driveviper.com/forums/thread...ight=Magnaflow

I stand by my snarky comment

[dewilmoth]

I’m surprised so many people are die hard Belanger fans when they are selling junk like this. I was considering buying their 2nd cat delete, glad I saw this.

[Bryan Savage]

But what about the pickle!

IMO it’s pretty shit of Belanger to be selling HF systems with crap cats. Just another reason to go ARH and not worry about it!

I’m surprised so many people are die hard Belanger fans when they are selling junk like this. I was considering buying their 2nd cat delete, glad I saw this.

Come on boys. Settle down. I didn't remember what I'd ordered from Belanger except that I wanted to pass emissions. What I was sold did exactly that. No smell and no check engine light.

The sound is awesome, the sill temps are half or less, and the headers are super nice.

You can't go trashing a company because a couple guys were confused on what they ordered. Belanger's website isn't even updated to show a Gen V on it. Lou is an old school guy who can build some great stuff. It's partly our fault if we didn't fully understand what we were ordering.

I would prefer a nice website with diagrams and photos of the available options, and a list of pros and cons for each, but alas, that's not what we get.

There's enough of us on these forums to supply all the information that a buyer would need, but it's scattered around so much that it's very difficult to find, search function or not. That's why there are so many threads rehashing the same topics over and over (like this one!!). I just wanted to share my personal experiences in case they're different than others who don't share as much information. There's some good stuff in this thread and I think it helped people learn a few things.

dewilmoth, I hope it helps you make a more-informed purchasing decision, but it's not fair to immediately condemn a company because the 50hp you thought you just bolted on isn't there.

I'm going to spend some more money and try some other suggestions made here and post the results. Over time, this thread too will become lost in the noise, and we'll see many more like it, but as long as it's there, maybe it will help someone.

[Jack B]

It's not only Belanger, read Scot's test/thread

[Jack B]

Come on boys. Settle down. I didn't remember what I'd ordered from Belanger except that I wanted to pass emissions. What I was sold did exactly that. No smell and no check engine light.

The sound is awesome, the sill temps are half or less, and the headers are super nice.

You can't go trashing a company because a couple guys were confused on what they ordered. Belanger's website isn't even updated to show a Gen V on it. Lou is an old school guy who can build some great stuff. It's partly our fault if we didn't fully understand what we were ordering.

I would prefer a nice website with diagrams and photos of the available options, and a list of pros and cons for each, but alas, that's not what we get.

There's enough of us on these forums to supply all the information that a buyer would need, but it's scattered around so much that it's very difficult to find, search function or not. That's why there are so many threads rehashing the same topics over and over (like this one!!). I just wanted to share my personal experiences in case they're different than others who don't share as much information. There's some good stuff in this thread and I think it helped people learn a few things.

dewilmoth, I hope it helps you make a more-informed purchasing decision, but it's not fair to immediately condemn a company because the 50hp you thought you just bolted on isn't there.

I'm going to spend some more money and try some other suggestions made here and post the results. Over time, this thread too will become lost in the noise, and we'll see many more like it, but as long as it's there, maybe it will help someone.

You have an excellent point, conversely, multiple parties have somewhat misled this forum. Everyone should read Scot's review of cats and exhausts. He was neutral in his review, but, the results should irritate anyone who changed cats and/or headers plus cats looking for hp.