Does the Gen 6 announcement affect everyone s inflated sense of worth on SE cars

[Mazak]

I can play this game. I have bought two.

I hope they build a Gen 6. With a smaller, yet powerful engine and DCT.

I may has well play. I bought four and kept two.

I hope they come back with an Automatic and a V12.

[SlateEd]

The Viper lost its market edge (not performance edge) slowly, one generation at a time, as domestic muscle and sports cars developed some wild specs, and magazines started comparing Viper with those instead of true exotics. For example:

C+D headline 1995 --
"1995 Acura NSX-T vs. Dodge Viper RT/10, Ferrari F355, Lotus Esprit S4S, Porsche 911 Turbo
The Supercar Olympics: Introducing five predatory athletes from five countries, all with carnivorous appetites. They''ll eat your lunch, your wallet, possibly you, too."

fast forward to 2013, and the headline from the same mag reads
"2013 SRT Viper GTS vs. 2013 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1
Patriot Games: The reborn Viper faces off against the current king of 600-plus-hp American sports cars."


When the GenV was released, it needed to be non-stop comparison tested against Ferarri and Lambo and Porsche and McLaren to establish a market with those buyers Chrysler was targeting at the time. Instead, the Viper got 'stuck' in the Corvette Trap. For the younger market, Viper didn't come off like a 'dream' car anymore, it came off as a very fast, kinda-scary-but-not-as-much-anymore, attainable car.

If there is to be a Gen6, it needs to be instantly recognizable as exotic, and whether we like it or not, that starts with price. Out of reach of almost all buyers (which will probably exclude me too). It needs to cost at least double what the highest spec Challenger costs, otherwise you'll get the same old "just a Dodge" BS right away. With a new exotic sticker price, the marketing team needs to play up the exotic aspects of the car, exclusivity due to low supply, not exclusive through low-demand. As much as we may critique what Ford did with the engine choice and the buyer-selection-process on the new GT, they got a few things right in the branding - It's in the same bucket as 720s, not C7Z.

It doesn't need an Italian platform and techno-driveline to achieve these marketing goals, just a clear desire to get the exotic swagger back, and a branding push to match.

[slitherv10]

It's been a long time since the end of the Gen V was announced and the first customer orders placed...what, maybe two years? That FCA is exploring a global brand effort that may or may not be possible, approved or built, and may or may not be called a Viper should not be too surprised. Designing and developing new cars never stops. Viper did end, they did wrap it up with a bow and a celebration, and maybe the name might return in another few years. That's good news for enthusiasts everywhere and "most" Viper owners that should benefit in various ways.

Those that only bought one because production was ending did in fact see production end...winning!

Bruce, I always have respected your thoughts and opinions. That's for sure, but, I would have to say that in this case if i am understanding you correctly in your final thought above, you're saying that its ok what happened to people that bought for the one reason alone that they thought it would be the last and it was do or die for them. Well keep in mind there were a few people that gave their last penny to get into the "LAST" Viper. Unlike Lambo and Ferrari and the like enthusiasts, Viper guys and gals are hard earning and hard working individuals who for not once but for the second time were taken by Chrysler with their uncertainty and or trickery that as snorman said earlier, took us all for a ride for financial gain

When your wife or husband cheats on you once and then cheats on you twice, would you believe they are being truthful the third. I know my answer there.

i don't think any one was a winner or is a winner. If they bought because they just felt like having one, then great, but for those others that jumped higher than they could , I feel for them yet Chrysler sure wouldn't care.

Now if what I am replying to is not what you intended on saying then, I apologize.

[Angleiron]

Just hope IF they bring it back it does not go like it has in the past....

[ViperJon]

Although Ford overcame the stigma somewhat with the FGT...nothing that has to be bought at, serviced by and most importantly branded DODGE will ever be considered an exotic.

[Bruce H.]

While the return of Viper is all speculation at this point, I have always thought automotive manufacturers were as driven to maximize profits for their shareholders as most large corporations are, often making unpopular decisions affecting their workers and customers. I don't recall FCA claiming the Viper name would never return, and thought it likely that it might as the name has great value... and since we've all seen iconic names return many times before. Of course they would try to profit as much as possible in ending production just as they did while producing them and I see no evidence of them being deceitful.

I feel sorry for anyone who would make such a completely unnecessary purchase, whether for love of car or desire to profit from speculation, if it meant putting themselves at financial risk and I hope no one did that in the purchase of a Viper. How, or if, owners will be positively or negatively affected by a future car with the Viper name is completely unknown. This is a discretionary purchase of a luxury item and I believe most plans to purchase were made soon after the announcement that the Gen V production would end. Even then there was speculation that while production was ending, yet again, that it would return at some point, yet again.

Those that purchased a Viper of any year or Gen for love of car and to enjoy a piece of automotive history shouldn't have their enjoyment affected either way and shouldn't blame Dodge for what it may or may not do in the future...although I suspect some will.

[Murpowa]

If there is to be a Gen6, it needs to be instantly recognizable as exotic, and whether we like it or not, that starts with price. Out of reach of almost all buyers (which will probably exclude me too). It needs to cost at least double what the highest spec Challenger costs, otherwise you'll get the same old "just a Dodge" BS right away. With a new exotic sticker price, the marketing team needs to play up the exotic aspects of the car, exclusivity due to low supply, not exclusive through low-demand. As much as we may critique what Ford did with the engine choice and the buyer-selection-process on the new GT, they got a few things right in the branding - It's in the same bucket as 720s, not C7Z.

.

No way, no how unless FCA does a complete overall on the majority of their dealerships + service departments. Who is going to pay top dollar for their 'Dodge exotic' when it is serviced right next to a bay full of (no disrespect) Caravans and Darts? Remember when SRT spun off? That failed miserably...

[Scott_in_fl]

If there is to be a Gen6, it needs to be instantly recognizable as exotic, and whether we like it or not, that starts with price. Out of reach of almost all buyers (which will probably exclude me too). It needs to cost at least double what the highest spec Challenger costs, otherwise you'll get the same old "just a Dodge" BS right away. With a new exotic sticker price, the marketing team needs to play up the exotic aspects of the car, exclusivity due to low supply, not exclusive through low-demand. As much as we may critique what Ford did with the engine choice and the buyer-selection-process on the new GT, they got a few things right in the branding - It's in the same bucket as 720s, not C7Z.

It doesn't need an Italian platform and techno-driveline to achieve these marketing goals, just a clear desire to get the exotic swagger back, and a branding push to match.

^^^ One of the best posts on this forum.

[/B]

Bruce, I always have respected your thoughts and opinions. That's for sure, but, I would have to say that in this case if i am understanding you correctly in your final thought above, you're saying that its ok what happened to people that bought for the one reason alone that they thought it would be the last and it was do or die for them. Well keep in mind there were a few people that gave their last penny to get into the "LAST" Viper. Unlike Lambo and Ferrari and the like enthusiasts, Viper guys and gals are hard earning and hard working individuals who for not once but for the second time were taken by Chrysler with their uncertainty and or trickery that as snorman said earlier, took us all for a ride for financial gain

When your wife or husband cheats on you once and then cheats on you twice, would you believe they are being truthful the third. I know my answer there.

i don't think any one was a winner or is a winner. If they bought because they just felt like having one, then great, but for those others that jumped higher than they could , I feel for them yet Chrysler sure wouldn't care.

Now if what I am replying to is not what you intended on saying then, I apologize.

Slither, I think you nailed it also. Most here might recall that I had just purchased a brand new '16 Z06 for about 3 months when I learned that the Viper was being discontinued.

After owning many great sports cars, including a Gen III coupe, I bought the Z06 with an automatic shift (which is unlike me) so that (a) the wife could enjoy it also; and (b) I would finally make use of a sports car as a daily driver (we have lots of traffic here in SoFla). I also loved the Z06 because, at $72k, I didn't mind that it would sit outside all day at my office, or that I would pack on tons of miles onto it, or that it would be parked in grocery store lots from time to time. It had a huge trunk, all the comfort and convenience, sounded amazing, accelerated like a raped ape... it was great.

Then, I learned that the Viper was being discontinued. From everything I had read and learned, this really was the end. Even the Dodge folks themselves were playing that story to the media, to dealers, and anyone else who would listen.

Although the timing was terrible, I was not missing the opportunity to get back into a Viper, and this time one that I could hold onto for a very, very long time. I immediately called Bill Pemberton to order a 1-of-1. Initially, we spec'ed a non-ACR, because I knew that I would hardly, if ever, track it (I spent many, many years racing superbikes, so the track junkie stuff is out of my system for the most part ). But then it became clear that if you're going to get a final year car, and if there is any plan on keeping it, you might as well reach for the highest spec and craziest model they make -- the ACR-E. And the rest is history.

I love the car, no doubt about it. But it took some maneuvering, some changed plans, and lots of peace-making with the wife to almost immediately turn around and take a loss on the Z06 that served a dual role as a DD/fun car, and then go right into shelling out $150k on a garage queen (and then go buy a replacement DD). Although we have it, we would not typically spend that kind of money on a single car. I can find all of the driving enjoyment I need for $72k (plus, I still have several bikes and plenty of other toys/hobbies that require my unyielding devotion as well -- a/k/a steady flow of $$ infusions).

So yeah, I don't like the games. And there must be plenty of others with similar stories, and maybe plenty of folks that end up getting hurt as a result. Pretty weak if that is how FCA needs to sell cars.

[V10powerr]

we are all in the blind-
enjoy your car now. there will always be something better in the future, viper or something else.
for all the people that say they would not buy a viper if it was not a v10, its very short sighted. you dont even know what the new one will end up looking like or power. its like i tell my kids, dont tell me you dont want to eat something before you have seen and tasted it.
i love my viper but would be open to newer ones just like when i traded my gen 3 for a gen 5.

[cubeman]

i hope a gen 6 comes out so i can get a Gen V ACR for the lowlow

[Scott_in_fl]

^^^^ Agreed. And the more I think about it, the more it appears that we're all in one of two camps.

Camp 1: If I had purchased an SRT or GTS to use as a daily, I likely would have picked one up used for a screaming deal. In fact, I would have gone for a '14 TA in orange. Back when I was looking (Fall of 2016), I probably would have paid $80k and intended to drive the snot out of it for a few years. Had I gone that route, I would be loving the idea of a Gen VI at some point with even more performance. By the time it comes out, I'd be ready to lose the TA and move on. The folks in this camp, which also includes all non-Gen V owners, would love to see a Gen VI (perhaps so they can purchase a Gen V on the cheap).

Camp 2: If you purchased a new final year car with a big MSRP because you wanted to grab onto a piece of history, then you likely purchased an ACR-E, full carbon, Stryker colors, etc., etc., etc., or maybe one of the final year SE cars. After all, if they're not ever making them again, then you want the best you can afford. Some of the ACR-E cars purchased by folks on this forum have nearly $200k stickers. Some even purchased multiple such cars. The folks in this camp are going to be irate if the whole "last Viper ever" mantra was a planned scheme to clear inventory.

[AZTVR]

Other than maybe two people, are there actually a group of people who believe that there was a covert plan to fool rich people into buying expensive toys by lying to them about whether a new Viper was ever going to be produced, and then shutting down the plant and disbanding the team so that their secret plan would not be foiled?

[Bruce H.]

Scott, for someone that has posted volumes about all things automotive, exotic and collectible I find you suddenly sounding awfully naive and somehow a victim "if" the Viper name returns.

I only casually follow what goes on in the automotive world but would suggest there's no foul in them winding up production and leaving the door open to bring it back at some point. Maybe it's just me, but I would have thought that buyers of toys and garage queens do it to stroke their fancy and egos and would take more responsibility for their purchase/investment decisions.

I simply don't get the hurt feelings, some being disappointed I get. Who knows how values will be affected if another Gen emerges, but those that made decisions and gambled on future values accepted the same risk as if they had bought any other kind of investment like stocks and real estate that do go up and down. Lots of people have real and serious problems, and this seems trivial from some owners that perhaps should not have purchased one in the first place.

Nothing has happened to those that bought the car to enjoy, and if the Viper were to return it might even help from a parts and service standpoint.

[cubeman]

Other than maybe two people, are there actually a group of people who believe that there was a covert plan to fool rich people into buying expensive toys by lying to them about whether a new Viper was ever going to be produced, and then shutting down the plant and disbanding the team so that their secret plan would not be foiled?

I can see Sergio in the corner now after declaring all debt is paid off

26djqh.jpg

[Steve M]

Nothing has happened to those that bought the car to enjoy, and if the Viper were to return it might even help from a parts and service standpoint.

That's probably the part I've enjoyed most about the Gen 5 - so many parts were interchangeable with my Gen 4, it relieved some of my anxiety about being able to source parts (like window regulators) for my own ride. Some parts were even upgrades that were pretty much a straight swap (the intake manifold being the most popular). The aftermarket also took off with the Gen 5, which indirectly affected me as well - a lot more companies were willing to step up and produce go-fast parts, many of which were also adaptable to the Gen 4. That kind of aftermarket support was never there for the Gen 4.

If the Gen 6 is going to be vastly different though, I don't think Gen 5 owners are going to see any of those benefits. That said, I also can't see it being so vastly different that there won't be at least some parts commonality, and that is a big plus for those owners that have a sentimental attachment to their cars like me.

[Scott_in_fl]

Scott, for someone that has posted volumes about all things automotive, exotic and collectible I find you suddenly sounding awfully naive and somehow a victim "if" the Viper name returns.

I only casually follow what goes on in the automotive world but would suggest there's no foul in them winding up production and leaving the door open to bring it back at some point. Maybe it's just me, but I would have thought that buyers of toys and garage queens do it to stroke their fancy and egos and would take more responsibility for their purchase/investment decisions.

I simply don't get the hurt feelings, some being disappointed I get. Who knows how values will be affected if another Gen emerges, but those that made decisions and gambled on future values accepted the same risk as if they had bought any other kind of investment like stocks and real estate that do go up and down. Lots of people have real and serious problems, and this seems trivial from some owners that perhaps should not have purchased one in the first place.

Nothing has happened to those that bought the car to enjoy, and if the Viper were to return it might even help from a parts and service standpoint.

Bruce, you are in Camp 1. Thus, as stated above, your view is different than those in Camp 2.

That said, let me be clear. The Gen V is great, amazing even. I love, love, love my car. I'm not a speculator, it's not my retirement plan, and I'm not selling it.

I'm also not crying in my porridge about values because I still believe they are only going up from here. The cars are collectible, and always will be, for all of the reasons you already know. Any forthcoming Gen VI, if it is happening at all, is not happening for a long time. And, when it does, it will be nothing like our current cars. Will it be awesome? Maybe. Will it be able to compete with a mid-engine Z06/ZR1 that will be sure to be its competition in 2021-22? Who knows.

So, to the OP's original question, I don't see SE car values as inflated and I don't see a Gen VI having any impact on values. '05-'06 FGT prices have not been noticeably impacted by NFGT, nor have air cooled Pcar prices been impacted by 911R or any other modern variant, nor have limited Fcar models prices, etc., etc. The same is true with American classics.

The problem I have is that I despise being lied to. That's really all it boils down to. Don't lie to sell something.

But it's too early to know if that's even the case. For all we know, the current rumor could be entirely untrue and we've all just wasted a bunch of time talking about it for nothing.

[uberpube]

Last year FCA registered the Cuda name, I suspect that will be the name of a new model on a lighter platform using shared hemi v8 tech. FCA isn't swimming in extra cash for platforms what don't share tech, they need to get in the hybrid/ev game with a larger profile or gov regulations will make them disappear, and to do that, they need to stretch their r and d dollars out.

[mackzilla]

Here's how you create a winning gen6 combo:

Build further improvements on the G5 suspension, interior and powertrain.
Dump a Gen2 GTS body on top of it.

Retro that, ya ma'fuckers.

[ClayR]

Cuda is coming, then the REPLACEMENT to the Viper will be shared with an Italian frame. Viper will be dead. It will be a completely different car, but it will be a Halo car, in my opinion.

[Nyad K.]

Why is it extra hard for many to believe or even absolute denial a gen 6 will come? Like there will always be a new vette, gt2, gt3, gtr, nsx, m3, m5, & so on. So why can't this same idea apply to the viper?

Agree!

[Martin]

FCA isn't swimming in extra cash for platforms what don't share tech, they need to get in the hybrid/ev game with a larger profile or gov regulations will make them disappear, and to do that, they need to stretch their r and d dollars out.

Call me stupid, but I have a feeling that the EPA will be a ghost of what it is today, and government regulations around these cars will be a lot less strict than they are today. By the time 2022 comes around the EPA regulations will be so watered down that car manufacturers will have one last hurrah before the EPA gets enough funding to re-build their whole program. By then, the younger crowd will be tired of electric or hybrid cars and they'll want fun things again. That'll probably carry us all the way into 2030 and the only people who won't benefit from it are the California residents like me. California will always screw us with hair-brained regulations.

[Stealth78]

Factory Five Racing is coming out with a new coupe that looks very very close to the car and driver article. Maybe the writer got his lines crossed?

We (New England Region) went to the Factory Five plant last year. Place is incredible for a smaller sized manufacturer. We joked with them about building a Viper!

[Stealth78]

It CAN happen but the timing on this would be odd imo. It just ceased production and plant did close. I think viper was troubled each gen by poor marketing and furthering the perception of not existing. The gen IV ending was pretty substantial and most lay car lovers thought it was dead. Gen V is more substantial with more news reports and announcements with the plant closure "last viper" etc...that is HARD to come back from.

So yes it can come back but serious marketing and engineering needs to go with it. No more behind the books Batman creations can occur. These new engines, options and regulations make for a he'll of a sizeable investment.

Then there is the issue of what Halo car does this really help? Vette program is long established and the base is damn good enough. Those Z06/ZR1 make sense. Same with the stangs. Stang V8 is good and also long established. V6 keeps the bodystyle is cheap and most popular. Most popular due to the history of the Stang and continued rivals to make the V8 GT and above cars relevant. Viper hasn't really ever marketed or budgeted well so those are real obstacles. Makes more sense to finally an ounce and build up a new in between model then possibly bring out the new viper if that is successful and the real budget is there. I am team Viper but a tuned V10 and super creative people on a budget just cannot compete with the changes here and upcoming.

Regarding people defending viper ending and the responses of their motive for value retention I don't understand. The new cars coming out well before the viper will kill it's performance. Any new viper isn't going to be from the last gen of manuals, less tech and more driver oriented so i could actually see all previous gens rising in value so it can go either way.

Bottom line is marketing and kiss poor budgeting wrecked the gen V and all that creativity didn't get properly noticed. Hand painted, hand assembled, V10, widest tires, etc...man that really puts the value so much higher than it ended up being. The 15k cut didn't help much IMO either. It's devaluing the brand to push cars. I hope for a new viper but I'd let the horse stay murked for a few years before credible leaks hit!

Speaking of bad timing, I'm wondering how this is going to affect the BJ auction. Last Demon and "Last" Viper to be auctioned as a pair!?!?

[cubeman]

Call me stupid, but I have a feeling that the EPA will be a ghost of what it is today, and government regulations around these cars will be a lot less strict than they are today. By the time 2022 comes around the EPA regulations will be so watered down that car manufacturers will have one last hurrah before the EPA gets enough funding to re-build their whole program. By then, the younger crowd will be tired of electric or hybrid cars and they'll want fun things again. That'll probably carry us all the way into 2030 and the only people who won't benefit from it are the California residents like me. California will always screw us with hair-brained regulations.

Come to New York, we're only half-assed, not full-assed like California.

[Murpowa]

i can see sergio in the corner now after declaring all debt is paid off

26djqh.jpg

lmao