Track temps HP timing etc

[lmcgrew79]

Refer to my ARH install thread, the difficulty with installation of the header merge joint can lead to damaging the gasket. The answer is to put a light tack coat of high temp red on one side and attach the gasket to the joint. The problem is, that adds a day (curing time) to the job and a lot of shops will not take the extra step. Time is money, I would probably to the same on a fixed price install.

I sanded the flanges and installed with no gasket, someone told me to do that, the gaskets can get crushed kinda with revs, load, etc. Will see how it works.

[1of1TA1.0]

No offense but Data is king, I'd like to see the comparison. I already said I like your product, I just think for a track car that isn't drag raced or street raced may not need it. I've actually read somewhere where you referenced the same. I hear what you said but having an obstruction on the other side of a radiator will affect airflow. Why exactly did Dodge go to a six vent hood instead of the two? Isn't the air intake under the hood the same since they both have only air coming through the radiator/front grill?

Data is king and I don’t have any comparing coolant or oil temps but if I wanted to block radiator air flow, placing an object spaced off the low pressure side is about the least effective way I can think of. The air is already through the radiator by the time it encounters the heat shield. At that stage you’re just diverting lower speed air in other directions but the air flow through the radiator will not have been affected.

[ViperGeorge]

Data is king and I don’t have any comparing coolant or oil temps but if I wanted to block radiator air flow, placing an object spaced off the low pressure side is about the least effective way I can think of. The air is already through the radiator by the time it encounters the heat shield. At that stage you’re just diverting lower speed air in other directions but the air flow through the radiator will not have been affected.

Doug, I have two of your heat shields, one on my 14 GTS and one that was on my 15 TA. I tried experiments at the track on my 15 TA with and without the shield, with and without the Arrow controller, and with and without the under drive pulley. Coolant temps and oil temps did not change one way or the other. Car would hit 243 coolant and 265 oil within about 15 minutes on track. IATs didn't change either. This led me to believe there was something else causing the temps to rise. A friend with a bone stock GTS was running similar temps. Maybe it was the waterpump issue that Andy talks about. My ACR runs to about 223 coolant on the track whereas my old 09 ACR rarely even saw 210.

One question I do have about the shield though is does it have to be so deep? It sits down pretty low behind the radiator, is there any impact to airflow through the hood vents? Not sure how you would prove that one way or the other without an wind tunnel.

[SSGNRDZ_28]

No offense but Data is king, I'd like to see the comparison. I already said I like your product, I just think for a track car that isn't drag raced or street raced may not need it. I've actually read somewhere where you referenced the same. I hear what you said but having an obstruction on the other side of a radiator will affect airflow. Why exactly did Dodge go to a six vent hood instead of the two? Isn't the air intake under the hood the same since they both have only air coming through the radiator/front grill?

No offense taken. Sounds like there is at least one data point below. The difference in the hoods allows more air to exit the engine bay (and removing the grilles helps even more) but what I’m saying is that an obstacle is not as big of a difference in the low speed air on the low pressure side of the radiator. The shield is definitely more beneficial at low speeds or idle and there’s less of a difference at high speed with more throttle in the car.

Doug, I have two of your heat shields, one on my 14 GTS and one that was on my 15 TA. I tried experiments at the track on my 15 TA with and without the shield, with and without the Arrow controller, and with and without the under drive pulley. Coolant temps and oil temps did not change one way or the other. Car would hit 243 coolant and 265 oil within about 15 minutes on track. IATs didn't change either. This led me to believe there was something else causing the temps to rise. A friend with a bone stock GTS was running similar temps. Maybe it was the waterpump issue that Andy talks about. My ACR runs to about 223 coolant on the track whereas my old 09 ACR rarely even saw 210.

One question I do have about the shield though is does it have to be so deep? It sits down pretty low behind the radiator, is there any impact to airflow through the hood vents? Not sure how you would prove that one way or the other without an wind tunnel.

Thanks George. Yeah it’s as small as it can be within reason to clear the drain plug. A more complex shape would make it potentially smaller but more expensive to manufacture. The hood air vents are to the side of the shield but would require complex CFD or a wind tunnel to quantify as you say.


Doug

[lmcgrew79]

Its seems the IAT timing is -3 @86, -4/95, -6/106, -8/113 -10/122, -12/140 degrees, ECT timing is -3/194, -5 @203, -7/212, and -8/221. Im not sure what the arrow pcm does or if these are compounded or its just the highest one. Either way on track the ect seems to be the culprit of timing pull, and on a cold day its easy to get to 203 even remotely cool day 212. Hope to see how this radiator does but pretty sure it wont take the coolant temp much lower.

[Arizona Vipers]

Its seems the IAT timing is -3 @86, -4/95, -6/106, -8/113 -10/122, -12/140 degrees, ECT timing is -3/194, -5 @203, -7/212, and -8/221. Im not sure what the arrow pcm does or if these are compounded or its just the highest one. Either way on track the ect seems to be the culprit of timing pull, and on a cold day its easy to get to 203 even remotely cool day 212. Hope to see how this radiator does but pretty sure it wont take the coolant temp much lower.

Does' anyone have any estimates on how much power would be lost at each of these levels of timing being pulled? -5 @ 203? WOW. No wonder GT3's walk away from us on the straights with 150-200 less hp.

[Arizona Vipers]

From the ECT timing pull data above, why don't all us track guys put as much ice as we can fit in the cooling system right before each session? The ECT's will be MUCH colder the entire session.
There's none of us that AREN'T losing power on the track according to the data above. It's pulling 3 degrees at only 194? LOL

[Arizona Vipers]

I know Lou Bellanger says not to wrap the headers. Don't know what ARH says.

Even with ceramic coating, hit the headers with a laser and the get EXTREMELY hot, especially on low gear tracks.
Wrapping solves this, but yes it will lower the lifespan of the header, especially mild steel headers. Without wrap i melted my fusebox, it looked like somebody took a blowtorch to it.

[Arizona Vipers]

Wrapping will not hurt the ARH headers. I had mine ceramic coated in/out. I do not know why, however, the engine bay and sills seem to run cooler with ARH, versus, Belanger. However, the Belange factory ceramic coating looked suspect.

Stainless steel has a much lower thermal conductivity than mild steel.

[ViperGeorge]

Even with ceramic coating, hit the headers with a laser and the get EXTREMELY hot, especially on low gear tracks.
Wrapping solves this, but yes it will lower the lifespan of the header, especially mild steel headers. Without wrap i melted my fusebox, it looked like somebody took a blowtorch to it.

Yea, been there done that. Melted the main wire harness too. The outside of the harness looked fine but 8 wires inside were toast. Also melted the plastic EVAP line that runs under the fuse box.

[Jack B]

Stainless steel has a much lower thermal conductivity than mild steel.

Excellent point, in general no one would be aware of the difference (more external heat generated) unless they had experienced both Belanger's and ARH on the same car. Which headers did you have when you melted the fuse box?

[ViperGeorge]

Excellent point, in general no one would be aware of the difference (more external heat generated) unless they had experienced both Belanger's and ARH on the same car. Which headers did you have when you melted the fuse box?

As for me I was running Belanger's.

[ayousef]

Its seems the IAT timing is -3 @86, -4/95, -6/106, -8/113 -10/122, -12/140 degrees, ECT timing is -3/194, -5 @203, -7/212, and -8/221. Im not sure what the arrow pcm does or if these are compounded or its just the highest one. Either way on track the ect seems to be the culprit of timing pull, and on a cold day its easy to get to 203 even remotely cool day 212. Hope to see how this radiator does but pretty sure it wont take the coolant temp much lower.

Where did you get those numbers from?

Take into consideration however that those arent the final numbers that get pulled since they then go through a multiplier table. I can show you what I mean if youre interested.

[lmcgrew79]

Where did you get those numbers from?

Take into consideration however that those arent the final numbers that get pulled since they then go through a multiplier table. I can show you what I mean if youre interested.

Someone posted them from hp tuner software, would def. like to see what happens and when.

[Steve M]

Someone posted them from hp tuner software, would def. like to see what happens and when.

Those were numbers for a Gen 4, which are more conservative than what is in the Gen 5 tune. The Gen 5 doesn't pull quite that much timing.

[Arizona Vipers]

Excellent point, in general no one would be aware of the difference (more external heat generated) unless they had experienced both Belanger's and ARH on the same car. Which headers did you have when you melted the fuse box?

The Belanger's. That being said Lou is a genius and makes badass headers. For my particular needs, I need all the help I can get and wrapped stainless headers for me is going to be my best bet. It's a track only car, here in Arizona and I run in 2nd gear 95% of the time so I'm punishing my headers more than 99.9% of you guys out there. Lou will make you custom heat shields if you ask, so if you are buying/own Belanger's and want to reduce heat just talk to Lou about some heat shields. No matter what header anyone out there is running, we can all agree you need to wrap your entire wiring harness at minimum. Calvo makes a fuse box heat shield as well that I run on both my track cars. To all you header guys out there that track your cars, take your hood vents off and pop your hood open the second you come off track.

[Jack B]

I am not advocating any brand of headers, i have run Belanger's for 18 years on multiple vipers. I just installed the ARH over the winter.This has never been discussed before, but, the with the heavy wall and the lower thermal conductivity, the ARH should run dramatically cooler (not cold) than the Belanger's. I noticed it immediately when I installed the ARH headers.

Can anyone comment if they have had a heat issue with ARH at the fuse box? Several cars have had damage to the fuse box with new headers, I wonder what the numbers are, ARH versus Belanger.

Another sidebar, the deacel popping noise almost went away when I pulled the cats off the Belanger's. However, since i installed the ARH headers, the popping under deacel is louder and more prevalent then it has ever been. The only other variable is, I upgraded the fuel pump, however, I believe? the regulator is in the bottle, not in the pump, therefore, it should not affect the deacel popping.

The Belanger's. That being said Lou is a genius and makes badass headers. For my particular needs, I need all the help I can get and wrapped stainless headers for me is going to be my best bet. It's a track only car, here in Arizona and I run in 2nd gear 95% of the time so I'm punishing my headers more than 99.9% of you guys out there. Lou will make you custom heat shields if you ask, so if you are buying/own Belanger's and want to reduce heat just talk to Lou about some heat shields. No matter what header anyone out there is running, we can all agree you need to wrap your entire wiring harness at minimum. Calvo makes a fuse box heat shield as well that I run on both my track cars. To all you header guys out there that track your cars, take your hood vents off and pop your hood open the second you come off track.

[ayousef]

Someone posted them from hp tuner software, would def. like to see what happens and when.

I have the HPTuners base file, and the numbers I see dont match at all. Also you need to consider that those values then have to go through a multiplier table, before they are applied. Ill try to get some screenshots and show what I mean.

[Jack B]

I will post a log of the timing curve tonight. It is worse than you think.