is this idle normal

[Jack B]

Really? No closed loop operation at all.

On day one I saw trims were missing, so I contacted Winkles, he confirmed it was normal on HC cars.

[ViperGeorge]

On day one I saw trims were missing, so I contacted Winkles, he confirmed it was normal on HC cars.

Jack, I did not realize the change to the Arrow programming in a HC car. The OP did not specify that he had a HC car only that he had the Arrow controller and headers. I'm assuming he would have mentioned that if he did. Without the HC package does the Arrow controller still look at the front O2 sensors? It used to. Given that the front O2s are what the PCM uses to adjust fuel/air I would still say the idle hunting is do to an exhaust leak upstream of the sensor. Best way to find it would be a smoke test. Shouldn't have to remove the sills to do this as only a leak upstream of the front O2 would cause the problem. You can see this without removing the sills (although a lift would help).

[Jack B]

Jack, I did not realize the change to the Arrow programming in a HC car. The OP did not specify that he had a HC car only that he had the Arrow controller and headers. I'm assuming he would have mentioned that if he did. Without the HC package does the Arrow controller still look at the front O2 sensors? It used to. Given that the front O2s are what the PCM uses to adjust fuel/air I would still say the idle hunting is do to an exhaust leak upstream of the sensor. Best way to find it would be a smoke test. Shouldn't have to remove the sills to do this as only a leak upstream of the front O2 would cause the problem. You can see this without removing the sills (although a lift would help).

This control scheme started with the HC, perhaps Scott can add his input. I purposely checked the trims on my first ride (after HC), because I knew where the trims had been averaging prior to the HC. When you have MAF input you have a lot of options. I have owned a G1, G2 and G5, in all cases you can notice the pcm/O2's searching at approx 2000 rpm, it may be minor, but, it is there. When I put a cam in the G2 that hunt/search became a lot worse at 2000 rpm. I had the advantage of time, but, could not totally get rid of that hunt/search the pcm was creating.

This has sort of been covered, but, calling the Nth Moto clutch light needs some explanation. The overall clutch is lighter than the OEM, however, the flywheel is steel (at least mine is), this gives you the best of both worlds. The flywheel has relatively high moment of inertia, this helps starting or launching. Secondly, the clutch components (plates/disks) have a relatively low moment of inertia, this allows better shifting.

[cashcorn]

That's weird. I've had the pulley on two Vipers (putting it on a third and forth tomorrow at IPSCO) and never had this issue with the stock belt.

It maybe weird, but it was a quick fix. On start-up it was fine, but after sitting at a stop light that's when it started. I had the exact same problem with my idle. I can't be the only one? hope this helps..

[cubeman]

It maybe weird, but it was a quick fix. On start-up it was fine, but after sitting at a stop light that's when it started. I had the exact same problem with my idle. I can't be the only one? hope this helps..

This is exactly my thing, The car does fine but when sitting it causes this issue. What belt did you end up getting? I'm just going to apply every fix possible.

[ayousef]

This is exactly my thing, The car does fine but when sitting it causes this issue. What belt did you end up getting? I'm just going to apply every fix possible.

Im using the stock belt with the underdrive since the belt that was sent with the kit was too short.

[ayousef]

I don’t know what is causing your idle issues, but it isn’t the clutch. I have headers, exhaust, pulley, Arrow ECU, and an Nth Moto clutch and I have ZERO issues. Stock ECU, Arrow ECU...doesn’t matter which one is in the car it drives and idles completely fine.

well that sucks to know to be honest, how does your clutch sound at idle? No rattling? also can you transition from a stop without using the throttle pedal and just by modulating the clutch pedal?

Does your car sound anything like the second video I posted, where the sound is clearly audible

[ayousef]

I wonder if there’s a problem with the install of the clutch. I remember reading a post from Andy where his Nth clutch had issues at first. After some adjustments it then worked just like stock. I don’t think I’ve read a single other post about people having issues with the Nth clutch. I hope you get it worked out!

Im guessing not alot of people have the nthmoto clutch but I could be mistaken. Also the clutch was installed by the guys at Viper Exchange before the car was shipped to me, so im guessing they have done the procedure but what do I know?

You didn't say which brand of headers you have. With the ARH headers a leak can develop where you bolt the pieces together at the collector. Bolting these pieces together is one of the harder things to do with the install. I don't know if Bellangers have the same issue. Jack can comment as he has done both. If a leak is upstream of the O2 sensor. The leak causes the PCM to constantly try to adjust A/F based on inaccurate data from the O2 sensor. A leak downstream of the front O2 will not cause this problem.

Im pretty sure its not a leak, my fuel trims are 100% perfect and very close to zero at all times. Also the car idles very smoothly once the idle was raised to 1000rpms. I am pretty sure it will idle smoothly even with slightly lower idle speed, but I have yet to find that out since the new ECU will only idle at 1000rpms for about 500miles. Once it drops I can find the lowest smooth idle spot.

[1.8t]

well that sucks to know to be honest, how does your clutch sound at idle? No rattling? also can you transition from a stop without using the throttle pedal and just by modulating the clutch pedal?

Does your car sound anything like the second video I posted, where the sound is clearly audible

Yes, I can move the car easily without using any throttle at all. Also, you will get some neutral gear rattle. The Nth design minimizes it as much as possible for a triple disc clutch, but it will happen and seems to be loudest when the trans is up to temperature. If you push your clutch in while in neutral it should go away and then you can confirm it is neutral gear rattle. The factory twin disc in my gen 4 also had neutral gear rattle.

[ayousef]

Yes, I can move the car easily without using any throttle at all. Also, you will get some neutral gear rattle. The Nth design minimizes it as much as possible for a triple disc clutch, but it will happen and seems to be loudest when the trans is up to temperature. If you push your clutch in while in neutral it should go away and then you can confirm it is neutral gear rattle. The factory twin disc in my gen 4 also had neutral gear rattle.

The neutral rattle is exactly what ive been referring to, perhaps I used the incorrect terminology callimg it a chatter. Sound does disappear when I oress the clutch, i thought it mught be a bad throwout bearing. Increasing the idle rpm gets rid of it completely. Ill send my Arrow ecu to get idle speed raised 150-200 rpms since it also makes the car drive easier and sounds cool.

[Steve M]

Yes, I can move the car easily without using any throttle at all. Also, you will get some neutral gear rattle. The Nth design minimizes it as much as possible for a triple disc clutch, but it will happen and seems to be loudest when the trans is up to temperature. If you push your clutch in while in neutral it should go away and then you can confirm it is neutral gear rattle. The factory twin disc in my gen 4 also had neutral gear rattle.

How loud are we talking here? As loud as the video he posted earlier? Tolerable?

[ayousef]

How loud are we talking here? As loud as the video he posted earlier? Tolerable?

Steve, if you idle at 850-900 rpms I think it would be dead silent, like I said at 1000rpms its non existent but 1000rpms is way too much for a stock cammed car like mine, it does sound nice though.

[Whitey]

The neutral rattle is exactly what ive been referring to, perhaps I used the incorrect terminology callimg it a chatter. Sound does disappear when I oress the clutch, i thought it mught be a bad throwout bearing. Increasing the idle rpm gets rid of it completely. Ill send my Arrow ecu to get idle speed raised 150-200 rpms since it also makes the car drive easier and sounds cool.

My Nth Moto clutch had a loud "chatter/rattle" noise when it was new. It would stop when I depressed the clutch. I too thought there was a throw out bearing issue. The loud noise went away slowly between 75-300 miles. The only noise I can hear now is the classic neutral gear rattle.

Your video audio may be distorting the sound, but it sounds louder than mine. How many miles are on your new clutch?

[1.8t]

How loud are we talking here? As loud as the video he posted earlier? Tolerable?

More than tolerable. I usually never even hear it unless I have driven for an extended period of time. My Gen 4’s factory clutch was more noticeable IMO.

[V10SNAKE]

My 2015 has the exact same rough idle problem. Arrow Stage 1 PCM, high flow cats, K&N drop in filter. I replaced the Arrow PCM with the stock PCM and it’s better but still rough. Exhaust leek upmstream of the O2 could be an issue. Passed Vacuum test.

[Jack B]

I have a digitial tach in the car and the stock pcm, HPT tuned PCM and the arrow pcm all have had 20-40 rpm swing at idle. If the car was quiet and did not have a tach, i probably would not know about the rpm swing.

[Arizona Vipers]

Did you do the proper dealer throttle relearn after installing the venom CPU?

[ayousef]

Did you do the proper dealer throttle relearn after installing the venom CPU?

Was installed by Viperexchange so im assuming it was done as per instructions, I dont mind passing by the dealer for them to do a re-learn

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My 2015 has the exact same rough idle problem. Arrow Stage 1 PCM, high flow cats, K&N drop in filter. I replaced the Arrow PCM with the stock PCM and it’s better but still rough. Exhaust leek upmstream of the O2 could be an issue. Passed Vacuum test.

I noticed your speedo is in KPH, where are you based at?

[V10SNAKE]

Was installed by Viperexchange so im assuming it was done as per instructions, I dont mind passing by the dealer for them to do a re-learn

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I noticed your speedo is in KPH, where are you based at?

I am Canadian but the car is in south Florida. We have a great Viper mechanic here in Toronto.
Does anyone have a recommendation for a Viper mechanic near Boca Raton FL?