ARH headers and stock mufflers

[Snorman]

So I can keep up with Keith's 700 rwhp ACR on track, I think I'm going to do the Venom controller, IPSCO UD pulley, DSE heat shield and ARH headers. While I would prefer to keep the cats, I think I'll go catless. But I'd prefer to run the stock mufflers rather than the ARH "full" system. Any thoughts on running headers with stock mufflers?
Thanks.

[Scot@Prefix]

So I can keep up with Keith's 700 rwhp ACR on track, I think I'm going to do the Venom controller, IPSCO UD pulley, DSE heat shield and ARH headers. While I would prefer to keep the cats, I think I'll go catless. But I'd prefer to run the stock mufflers rather than the ARH "full" system. Any thoughts on running headers with stock mufflers?
Thanks.

Check with "Whitey" on the forum here, his car is setup with the 9L xtreme, Belanger headers, high flow cats and stock mufflers. Made good power and sounds great!
There are a couple videos he posted as well of his car starting, and running.
Thanks

[cashcorn]

Headers/Hi-flows & stock mufflers with HPtune your at 600 rwhp. Venom controller same exhaust maybe 575-580 rwhp max. just my op..

[cashcorn]

If your talking 9L extreme, your probably in the ball park +!

[IHOP]

Headers/Hi-flows & stock mufflers with HPtune your at 600 rwhp. Venom controller same exhaust maybe 575-580 rwhp max. just my op..

How high it your redline? I'm pretty sure it's a higher redline than the Arrow PCU and if he is tracking having a higher redline is harder on the motor. IMO 25hp is worth a safer motor.

[BJG32]

I assume your driving skill will make up for hp on keith's 700 whp? Driver skill equal, You're not even close with the mods you listed so thats your only hope with keeping up.

[IHOP]

I assume your driving skill will make up for hp on keith's 700 whp? Driver skill equal, You're not even close with the mods you listed so thats your only hope with keeping up.

Or also get better tires than him. What tires does he/you run? Slicks/hoosiers vs street/track tires will make up the hp difference too.

[Jack B]

So I can keep up with Keith's 700 rwhp ACR on track, I think I'm going to do the Venom controller, IPSCO UD pulley, DSE heat shield and ARH headers. While I would prefer to keep the cats, I think I'll go catless. But I'd prefer to run the stock mufflers rather than the ARH "full" system. Any thoughts on running headers with stock mufflers?
Thanks.

The stock muffler is 2-1/2, go 3" all the way out, that means changing the muffler.

[Snorman]

Trying to keep the discussion to exhaust, not driving skill or tires. I'm not looking for input on those. Thanks.
S.

- - - Updated - - -

The stock muffler is 2-1/2, go 3" all the way out, that means changing the muffler.

So the stock mufflers ARE a 2.5" inlet? Crap...I thought they were 3".
S.

[IHOP]

Trying to keep the discussion to exhaust, not driving skill or tires. I'm not looking for input on those. Thanks.
S.

- - - Updated - - -


So the stock mufflers ARE a 2.5" inlet? Crap...I thought they were 3".
S.

Sorry Snorman!

[Voice of Reason]

I have the setup you’re mentioning plus high flow cats and love it. ARH can make your cat delete pipe sized to work with the stock mufflers easy enough. Yes there’s a size difference 3” -> 2.5” but I think it’s been shown that there’s no power increase from changing out the mufflers. And with no cats keeping the stock mufflers is your only hope of it not being insanely loud and annoying.

[Jack B]

The ARH 2-1/2 cat delete pipes are $520, I have a set for $250 shipped.

[Bruce H.]

Sean, I had a conversation with Ralph about the upgrade path and he felt using the stock mufflers didn't cost much power with his Arrow, ARH headers and cat delete. At the time he was running Borla mufflers which he had chosen to tame noise a bit after finding Corsas too loud. I'm sure Dick was intimately involved in every mod he's ever done so pretty sure that's his take also.

I wasn't considering cat delete due to our emissions testing up here and didn't want to go too loud due to track noise limits at tracks I frequent. As a general guideline he suggested the ECU alone was good for 20 hp from fuel and timing map changes, headers another 20, and mufflers another 20 if you could handle the noise levels.

And then speaking with Dick a few minutes later, focusing more on the ECU, I was left on the fence doing anything due to sparse local availability of the required 93 octane and likelihood of increased track temps.

And Ralph answered your same question which I asked him, that there was absolutely no problem and rather minimal cost to power running stock mufflers with any and all other mods.

Good luck with your decision... and another important consideration might even be some ear protection!

Bruce

[serpent]

Stock mufflers are heavy, swapping them to anything else will drop weight too. Something to consider.
It sucks racetracks have db limits (fucking retarded), but if you dont have to deal with that and because race car I would swap out the muffler in a heart beat.

Snor, have you considered going with lightweight wheels too? The forgelines for track use in these cars are strong as hell and about as light as the Sidewinder II from the Viper TA.

According to Bryan Savage:
https://driveviper.com/forums/thread...=wheel+weights
GTD1 (front's are 18" though)
19lbs front - Maybe Tony would know how much a 19" front GTD-1 wheel would weigh?
23lb rear (1lb lighter than the sidewinder II)

ACR wheel weights:
https://driveviper.com/forums/thread...Weights/page2?
front 26.0 lbs.
rear 27.8 lbs.

[Snorman]

I have the setup you’re mentioning plus high flow cats and love it. ARH can make your cat delete pipe sized to work with the stock mufflers easy enough. Yes there’s a size difference 3” -> 2.5” but I think it’s been shown that there’s no power increase from changing out the mufflers. And with no cats keeping the stock mufflers is your only hope of it not being insanely loud and annoying.

Sean, I had a conversation with Ralph about the upgrade path and he felt using the stock mufflers didn't cost much power with his Arrow, ARH headers and cat delete. At the time he was running Borla mufflers which he had chosen to tame noise a bit after finding Corsas too loud. I'm sure Dick was intimately involved in every mod he's ever done so pretty sure that's his take also.

I wasn't considering cat delete due to our emissions testing up here and didn't want to go too loud due to track noise limits at tracks I frequent. As a general guideline he suggested the ECU alone was good for 20 hp from fuel and timing map changes, headers another 20, and mufflers another 20 if you could handle the noise levels.

And then speaking with Dick a few minutes later, focusing more on the ECU, I was left on the fence doing anything due to sparse local availability of the required 93 octane and likelihood of increased track temps.

And Ralph answered your same question which I asked him, that there was absolutely no problem and rather minimal cost to power running stock mufflers with any and all other mods.

Good luck with your decision... and another important consideration might even be some ear protection!

Bruce

Great information, thanks guys!

[Snorman]

Stock mufflers are heavy, swapping them to anything else will drop weight too. Something to consider.
It sucks racetracks have db limits (fucking retarded), but if you dont have to deal with that and because race car I would swap out the muffler in a heart beat.

Snor, have you considered going with lightweight wheels too? The forgelines for track use in these cars are strong as hell and about as light as the Sidewinder II from the Viper TA.

According to Bryan Savage:
https://driveviper.com/forums/thread...=wheel+weights
GTD1 (front's are 18" though)
19lbs front - Maybe Tony would know how much a 19" front GTD-1 wheel would weigh?
23lb rear (1lb lighter than the sidewinder II)

ACR wheel weights:
https://driveviper.com/forums/thread...Weights/page2?
front 26.0 lbs.
rear 27.8 lbs.

Yeah, I can probably save a few pounds switching wheels but I've already got two sets of brass monkeys so will probably keep the stock wheels. To me, minimal weight savings isn't a big deal for DE's. But I'd like another 50-60 rwhp, lol.

[serpent]

Yeah, I can probably save a few pounds switching wheels but I've already got two sets of brass monkeys so will probably keep the stock wheels. To me, minimal weight savings isn't a big deal for DE's. But I'd like another 50-60 rwhp, lol.

Yea i understand, there's different levels to this stuff. I have a regular viper with TA body parts and the last thing I need is power. Just need lighter materials and better grip/better brakes which im working on! LOL.

Are you still on carbon rotors?

[Ninjakris]

I'm running ARH headers, ARH high-flow cats and stock mufflers. Also have smooth tubes, under drive pulley, and arrow PCM. The sound is good. I let ARH know I was using the OEM mufflers and they had the pipe reduced just before the muffler. I ran ARH catless initially but wasn't a fan of the fumes although it sounded amazing. So I went high-flows. I'm leaving a few ponies on the table, but the reduction of fumes and smelling like gas was worth it to me.

[Snorman]

Yea i understand, there's different levels to this stuff. I have a regular viper with TA body parts and the last thing I need is power. Just need lighter materials and better grip/better brakes which im working on! LOL.

Are you still on carbon rotors?

Nope, I converted to the Girodisc iron rotors last year. And it's one of the best things I've ever done on one of my track cars. I get 8 DAYS out of a set of Raybestos ST43 front pads and I think I'll get 12 out of a set of rear pads. I can get the front pads for $250/set and the rears for $200. So my allocation of brake pads costs is somewhere around ~$50/day, or about $10/session, lol. I'm not sure on the rotor rings but I only have some microcracks now, so maybe 15-20 days out of a set?

I'm running ARH headers, ARH high-flow cats and stock mufflers. Also have smooth tubes, under drive pulley, and arrow PCM. The sound is good. I let ARH know I was using the OEM mufflers and they had the pipe reduced just before the muffler. I ran ARH catless initially but wasn't a fan of the fumes although it sounded amazing. So I went high-flows. I'm leaving a few ponies on the table, but the reduction of fumes and smelling like gas was worth it to me.

This is the exact conversation I was having with Snake and MoparBoyy last night. I'm not 100% I want to eliminate the cats even though it will cost horsepower. I don't like the exhaust fumes. I think in the end, I'll end up without cats since the car is primarily a track car.
S.

[TrackAire]

Nope, I converted to the Girodisc iron rotors last year. And it's one of the best things I've ever done on one of my track cars. I get 8 DAYS out of a set of Raybestos ST43 front pads and I think I'll get 12 out of a set of rear pads. I can get the front pads for $250/set and the rears for $200. So my allocation of brake pads costs is somewhere around ~$50/day, or about $10/session, lol. I'm not sure on the rotor rings but I only have some microcracks now, so maybe 15-20 days out of a set?
This is the exact conversation I was having with Snake and MoparBoyy last night. I'm not 100% I want to eliminate the cats even though it will cost horsepower. I don't like the exhaust fumes. I think in the end, I'll end up without cats since the car is primarily a track car.
S.

After many combinations I ended up with ARH headers, no cats and stock mufflers. I don't think the aftermarket cats hold up very well to sustained exhaust temps that track days subject them to. I look at all aftermarket cats (I was running ARH's) as a consumable product. Nothing that is the size of a grapefruit is going to last longer than the mongo sized stock units......just my experience.

I've never had an issue when driving the car with exhaust smells because I'm catless....only on cold start up in an enclosed area like a garage. But even my stock Viper was stinky in that situation.

[Scot@Prefix]

After many combinations I ended up with ARH headers, no cats and stock mufflers. I don't think the aftermarket cats hold up very well to sustained exhaust temps that track days subject them to. I look at all aftermarket cats (I was running ARH's) as a consumable product. Nothing that is the size of a grapefruit is going to last longer than the mongo sized stock units......just my experience.

I've never had an issue when driving the car with exhaust smells because I'm catless....only on cold start up in an enclosed area like a garage. But even my stock Viper was stinky in that situation.

We have ultra high flow race cats, that are capable of supporting up to 1600hp. The OE cats are very durable, but that durability does cost power.

[Jack B]

After many combinations I ended up with ARH headers, no cats and stock mufflers. I don't think the aftermarket cats hold up very well to sustained exhaust temps that track days subject them to. I look at all aftermarket cats (I was running ARH's) as a consumable product. Nothing that is the size of a grapefruit is going to last longer than the mongo sized stock units......just my experience.

I've never had an issue when driving the car with exhaust smells because I'm catless....only on cold start up in an enclosed area like a garage. But even my stock Viper was stinky in that situation.

I am with you, i did not notice any change in smell when I went catless. The car got louder, but, the drone disappeared.

[TheWessss]

Snor, We are doing the exact same thing. I read through the entire thread and agree with just about all of it. I to considered the a/m mufflers. I wasn't a fan of the Corsa sound on my first G5. We drive year round in Florida and I track about a 12 times a year. I just picked up JackB's Bellanger headers and J-Pipe (probably will be selling the H/F cats if anyone is interested). Already have the DSE heat shield, I went with 1/2" Dyna Liner, couldn't find any 1'4" over Christmas Break, lol. IAT have gone down, as advertised, I compared with other G5s at the track on the same day with me. The only thing that I didn't hear anybody mention, that both JackB & Andy Wheeler, mentioned is the Calvo heat shields (~$100) for around the fuse box area. I don't have all the answers as I just a left a message for them and should be hearing back on Monday. But it was STRONGLY encouraged to make sure proper shielding is in place or you may have some smelting. No Bueno!!!!

[Nine Ball]

For some strange reason, my Gen 5's do not have the exhaust smell without cats. My wife is ultra-critical about it, and she doesn't even complain.