Gen IV charging issue

[bks]

My 2009 coupe with 12,600 miles on it developed a charging issue out of the blue. It had the red ETC warning light on the left, and the voltage gauge fluctuated between 11 and 12 volts, with a red light there as well. The car would idle, but only rev to around 2500 rpm.

I replaced the optima red top I had in the car along with the alternator, neither of which fixed the problem, so I ordered a Mopar PCM with the Arrow tune on it, which I installed today. Now the car has the same warning lights, but it will start, rev to 1500 rpm, and immediately die. I'm at a loss where to look next for a solution, other than putting the stock PCM back in and towing it to the dealership. If anyone has any troubleshooting ideas, they would be greatly appreciated.

Edit:
I'm going to update this as I get more information to try to help anyone who experiences this in the future. I put the stock PCM back in and pulled the following codes after a few starts and minutes of running. There were also 15 Stored codes in the PCM before I cleared it, which I will add if anyone thinks that info would be useful.

Stock PCM Pending Codes:
P0014 - B Camshaft Position Timing Over Advance or System Performance Bank 1
P0134 - O2 Sensor Circuit No Activity Detected Bank 1 Sensor 1
P0560 - System Voltage
P0658 - Actuator Supply Voltage A Circuit Low
P2502 - Charging System Voltage

Update 2:
I put the Mopar/Arrow PCM back in, and it is starting and running, but it is rough as hell, shaking and sounding like it's running on maybe 5 cylinders. It's not responding to throttle input, I'm assuming because of code P2104 below. There were 20 stored codes at first, but after clearing and running a few times, these were the codes it showed.

Mopar PCM Pending Codes:
P0014 - B Camshaft Position Timing Over Advance or System Performance Bank 1
P0560 - System Voltage
P0658 - Actuator Supply Voltage A Circuit Low
P2104 - Throttle Actuator Control System Forced Idle
P2502 - Charging System Voltage

Update 3:
I pulled out the the new alternator and took it and the old stock alternator to be tested, both passed with no problems. I put the stock alternator back in the car tonight and got similar results as I did with the new alternator. The stock PCM idles but goes into limp mode, same codes, the Mopar PCM however does not idle tonight, but this seems to be related to temperature, it's much colder tonight (55F) than it was the other day when it was doing its terrible idle (72F).

Update 4:
Long story short, the resolution to this problem was a faulty ASD Relay 1. Check ASD Relay 1 and 2 first when troubleshooting a charging or PCM problem.

A few other things to note: 1. It is possible to get a Mopar PCM directly from Prefix with the Arrow tune, without having to get the PCM installed, get it paired, then send it back to Prefix to get the Arrow tune put in it. 2. What you read about the Arrow tune is true, the throttle map is MUCH more (too?) sensitive on tip-in, and pops like it's the car's job on deceleration. Thanks everyone for your input on this problem.

[Steve M]

Did you note any issues with the wiring when replacing either the battery or alternator? The PCM was a good thought, but clearly isn't the culprit here.

[bks]

I didn't see anything obvious. I also got under the car before ordering the PCM and checked all the grounds I could find (3 I think), everything looked and felt right to me.

[Ninjakris]

Do you have a multi-meter? Check voltages on the battery itself from the car turned off all the way through when it breaks up at 1500 RPM's. Do the same with the output of the alternator. Double check your output of the alternator matches the input of the fuse block (I don't have a gen IV, but in theory it should work). It sounds like to me there is a bad ground or a short somewhere. You can also check the output of the alternator (or any +) source and touch the other end to each ground point you can see.

Also check your belt for any excessive wear and if there is tension on it. My thought there is, the faster the engine turns, it might not be spinning the alternator the correct speed causing a mismatch of expected voltages and the PCS is shutting it down.

I'm not a mechanic by trade, but understand electronics fairly well.

Sorry to hear the Mopar PCM didn't fix the issue, that was a good idea. Good luck and please post the outcome on here. I'm curious what it will end up being.

[Stealth78]

Are you throwing any codes?

[bks]

I put the stock PCM back in and pulled the following codes after a few starts and minutes of running. There were also 15 Stored codes in the PCM before I cleared it, which I will add if anyone thinks that info would be useful.

Pending Codes:
P0014 - B Camshaft Position Timing Over Advance or System Performance Bank 1
P0134 - O2 Sensor Circuit No Activity Detected Bank 1 Sensor 1
P0560 - System Voltage
P0658 - Actuator Supply Voltage A Circuit Low
P2502 - Charging System Voltage

The voltage measured at the alternator at idle is 12.37v, but voltage is 12.71 at the input to the fuse block and the battery itself since I've had it on a trickle charger.

Also, Ninjakris, to be clear, it's not breaking up at 1500rpm, it's just the normal limp mode slow rev deal.

[Redx]

The codes are normal with first time startup after arrow tune has been put in. Maybe not the charging system ones but the rest would be.

[bks]

I put the stock PCM back in, cleared the codes, and those five were what showed up. I was thinking about putting the Mopar/Arrow PCM back in temporarily and pulling those codes just to see if it would give any more information. I will probably do that tomorrow.

[EZ 2B Green]

The alternator voltage at idle is too low. What was the condition of charge on the battery before startup? If the battery was charged then I would pull the alternator and get it tested.
If that checks out and you are sure the battery is good and you didn't find any loose grounds, Ohm out the wiring from the PCM to the alternator or where the PCM senses/controls the system voltage.

[bks]

EZ 2B Green, it's a new battery and alternator, but I am going to get the old alternator tested, and I may pull out the new one and get it tested too, I don't know, I'm just not sure what to do next at this point.

I put the Mopar/Arrow PCM back in, and it is starting and running, but it is rough as hell, shaking and sounding like it's running on maybe 5 cylinders. It's not responding to throttle input, I'm assuming because of code P2104 below. There were 20 stored codes at first, but after clearing and running a few times, these were the codes it showed.

Mopar PCM Pending Codes:
P0014 - B Camshaft Position Timing Over Advance or System Performance Bank 1
P0560 - System Voltage
P0658 - Actuator Supply Voltage A Circuit Low
P2104 - Throttle Actuator Control System Forced Idle
P2502 - Charging System Voltage

[Steve M]

Did you have the throttle relearn done when you installed the Arrow PCM? Seems odd that it wouldn't respond to pedal input...

P2014 is limp mode, so you won't be able to do anything until you get that cleared and not coming back.

[bks]

Did you have the throttle relearn done when you installed the Arrow PCM? Seems odd that it wouldn't respond to pedal input...

P2014 is limp mode, so you won't be able to do anything until you get that cleared and not coming back.

Not yet, Prefix is telling me that the car should run with the new PCM even without having the throttle mapped. Their advice was to put the stock PCM back in the car and take it to a dealership to be fixed.

[Steve M]

For clarity, you had already installed the Mopar PCM on your car and had it running before the Arrow reflash, correct?

[bks]

For clarity, you had already installed the Mopar PCM on your car and had it running before the Arrow reflash, correct?

Well, no. I talked to Dale Matthews at Prefix about needing a Mopar PCM, and they sold me a new Mopar PCM with the Arrow tune reflash already in it. I agree with you, everything I've read says you can't have the Arrow reflash put on until the PCM is installed by Dodge, but if anyone would know, it would be Prefix, right?

[EZ 2B Green]

EZ 2B Green, it's a new battery and alternator, but I am going to get the old alternator tested, and I may pull out the new one and get it tested too, I don't know, I'm just not sure what to do next at this point.

I put the Mopar/Arrow PCM back in, and it is starting and running, but it is rough as hell, shaking and sounding like it's running on maybe 5 cylinders. It's not responding to throttle input, I'm assuming because of code P2104 below. There were 20 stored codes at first, but after clearing and running a few times, these were the codes it showed.

Mopar PCM Pending Codes:
P0014 - B Camshaft Position Timing Over Advance or System Performance Bank 1
P0560 - System Voltage
P0658 - Actuator Supply Voltage A Circuit Low
P2104 - Throttle Actuator Control System Forced Idle
P2502 - Charging System Voltage

"New" doesn't necessarily = "good" but the odds are that the problem is somewhere else. I'm including a page from the 2008 wiring manual (it's likely the same as your 2009). If all of the basics check out, I would check the "GEN FIELD CONTROL" and "GEN SENSE" wiring.

Scan0011.pdf

[Steve M]

So are you still having the charging issues even with the stock PCM?

Regardless of what they said, you need to have the dealership do a throttle relearn for the new PCM.

[bks]

"New" doesn't necessarily = "good" but the odds are that the problem is somewhere else. I'm including a page from the 2008 wiring manual (it's likely the same as your 2009). If all of the basics check out, I would check the "GEN FIELD CONTROL" and "GEN SENSE" wiring.

Scan0011.pdf

Will do, thank you for that, I appreciate it.

[bks]

So are you still having the charging issues even with the stock PCM?

Regardless of what they said, you need to have the dealership do a throttle relearn for the new PCM.

Yes, I'm having a charging issue with both PCMs. The biggest difference between the two is that the stock PCM actually idles, and the Mopar/Arrow PCM does a smooth rev to 1500rpm on start, then settles into a terrible, shitty idle, like the timing is way off.

[viperBase1]

Hey just throwing this out there.

If you have a closed system oil catch can.. make sure its empty / drain it.

[Steve M]

Yes, I'm having a charging issue with both PCMs. The biggest difference between the two is that the stock PCM actually idles, and the Mopar/Arrow PCM does a smooth rev to 1500rpm on start, then settles into a terrible, shitty idle, like the timing is way off.

That's limp mode, and it is because it needs the throttle relearn procedure done...unfortunately, that can only be accomplished with the dealer scan tool for the Arrow PCM.

[bks]

Hey just throwing this out there.

If you have a closed system oil catch can.. make sure its empty / drain it.

Nope, I don't have a catch can on this car.

[bks]

I pulled out the the new alternator and took it and the old stock alternator to be tested, both passed with no problems. I put the stock alternator back in the car tonight and got similar results as I did with the new alternator. The stock PCM idles but goes into limp mode, same codes, the Mopar PCM however does not idle tonight, but this seems to be related to temperature, it's much colder tonight (55F) than it was the other day when it was doing its terrible idle (72F).

[bks]

That's limp mode, and it is because it needs the throttle relearn procedure done...unfortunately, that can only be accomplished with the dealer scan tool for the Arrow PCM.

Shouldn't it at least idle normally? Are you saying that you think it will run normally if I just have the Arrow PCM mapped or paired to the car?

[Steve M]

Shouldn't it at least idle normally? Are you saying that you think it will run normally if I just have the Arrow PCM mapped or paired to the car?

Yes. If you can get it to the dealer, install the Arrow PCM and have them do a throttle relearn.

I won't promise 100% that it will solve your problems, but based on what you described, and given that you never had the Mopar PCM properly mated to the car prior to the Arrow reflash, this is what I'd try next.

[bks]

So this problem was resolved today. I drove the car in limp mode for a very sketchy 28 miles to the dealership this morning. They paired the Mopar/Arrow PCM after which the car ran, but it didn't fix the charging issue. The dealer believed it was the alternator at that point, but after putting in the new alternator I already had and getting the exact same results, they dug a little deeper and found that the charging problem was caused by a faulty ASD Relay 1.

Thank you everyone for your input on this, and to the people looking for answers on a similar problem, check your ASD relays first.