Need tips on T&D RR install.

[Sybil TF]

Ok, I have a brand new set of T&D RR's just begging to be installed soooooo, any one care to tell me how to do this so I can be sure to supervise my man slave in the right direction? Going on my 96GTS.

[slitherv10]

Are you putting them on stock heads or did you port and polish those?

Did you have any idea as to what it will add in terms of performance...HP, TQ,,response,,,etc..would be interested as I have been thinking of building the motor in my 96 slowly as well

[Sybil TF]

Stock heads.Have M&M headers, hi-flow cats and Borla cat back. Just doing bolt on stuff right now. I see a SC in my future though.

[Sybil TF]

Well, hell I am the only one on here that will do self install. Sweet.

[Fatboy 18]

Sorry I can't offer any advice, but I would also like to see an install guide, I have often thought about this mod for my car

[ViperTony]

I've done it. Gathering some pics and details to post here soon. Hopefully tomorrow.

[99RT10]

I've done it. Gathering some pics and details to post here soon. Hopefully tomorrow.

That would be great to put in the "How to" section. Thanks Tony!

[Sybil TF]

I've done it. Gathering some pics and details to post here soon. Hopefully tomorrow.

Thank you!!

[ViperTony]

You're going to need an adjustable push rod length checker to measure for new push rods. I have an adjustable TD push rod length checker you can use. PM your address and I'll drop it in the mail. Or you can just get one for about $20. It's a good idea to measure for new push rods. Cheap insurance. I'll post some information this afternoon.

[Sybil TF]

You're going to need an adjustable push rod length checker to measure for new push rods. I have an adjustable TD push rod length checker you can use. PM your address and I'll drop it in the mail. Or you can just get one for about $20. It's a good idea to measure for new push rods. Cheap insurance. I'll post some information this afternoon.

Got one, thanks tho.

[345s-bspinnin]

I did a T&D lifter install after I got my heads ported (Gen III). Good advise on the pushrod length checker, but you need to make sure that you have the right preload on the lifter. It is important for proper lashing and torquing down the rockers.

This thread has good info: http://ls1tech.com/forums/generation...r-preload.html

[slitherv10]

What will adding the TT rockers do as far as performance etc.

[Sybil TF]

What will adding the TT rockers do as far as performance etc.

About 10-15 hp so I am told.

Some claim 20hp. That's about it. Only $1,500 for 20hp, sweet lol.

[slitherv10]

About 10-15 hp so I am told.

Some claim 20hp. That's about it. Only $1,500 for 20hp, sweet lol.

Will it make the exhaust note any different?

[Sybil TF]

Will it make the exhaust note any different?

I'll let you know when mine are on but mine is kinda loud so probably won't be able to tell a difference. I can't see how a little more lift and and a little less friction could cause more exhaust noise.

[Fatboy 18]

This is a good read

http://www.viperacr.com/tuners/refer...?submit=submit

[345s-bspinnin]

What will adding the TT rockers do as far as performance etc.

Basically zero if the ratio is the same no stock engine. However, a jump in ratio means a multiplicative effect in cam lift, and thus the mentioned gains ranging in 15-20 hp on fully OEM setup. However, the real benefits come to those with built engine who chose to spin their engines higher. The shaft mounted rockers allow for better valve train stability. Furthermore, these are adjustable, and thus allow better lashing. Although the lashing is not as critical on a hydraulic lifter, it becomes a necessity when moving over to solid roller cams. In that latter, these are a necessity for spinning the engine sky high.

[ViperTony]

What will adding the TT rockers do as far as performance etc.

Actually, on a stock engine they help add a little bit of horsepower and a more stable valve train. They increase lift. I've been told 10-15rwhp. I never dyno'd a before/after with the rockers as this was more of a long-term series of related modifications for me. But the rockers compliment other modifications such as the heads/cam mods you're considering. I add my rockers after I did headers and exhaust to help the engine breath better. When I added my GG heads and cam the rockers were a must as the stockers couldn't handle the new spring pressures. The increase lift provided by the 1.7 ratio complimented the package as well.

In and of themselves I don't believe Rockers are worth the money for pure power increase. Combined with other modifications then yes they're worth it and needed especially in case where higher spring pressures would obliterate the stock rockers. Not good.

I purchased my T&D new old stock for $700. They were never used, still mounted in their original packaging. So in my case, it was a bargain.

[Troublemaker]

I always thought there real benefit was reduced friction in a motor, which in turn adds to faster revving and slightly freed up horsepower. Going to a 1.7 adds another benefit mentioned above.

[ViperTony]

So, installing the T&D rockers requires paying attention to a few things namely: proper geometry, valve lash, proper pushrod length, pre-load. It's not as complicated as it may sound.

I assume you know how to remove the valve covers so I won't go there. Once you have the valve covers removed you can disassemble the stock rockers:

P7030272.JPG

You may find some graffiti in your heads. After trying to figure out what the inscriptions meant I came to the conclusion that they read: "Yellow vipers are faster".

P7030275.JPG

Next you'll want to remove the pushrods by simply pulling them up and out. Be careful not to drop them into the engine, it's possible, don't ask me how I know this.

One you've removed the stock valve train you're ready to install the T&D rocker stand. The rocker stand has "V10" stamped on one side. You want the "V10" facing towards you when you bolt down the rocker stand to the head. Don't install all of the stand bolts yet as you need to check for rocker geometry first. So I installed the stand with a couple of bolts first:

Rockers-001.jpg

The above image show the stand installed. It also shows a T&D rocker assembly disassembled. T&D instructions discuss how to check for rocker geometry using the stand height gauge that comes with the kit. It's the small L-shaped aluminum piece in the bag with the washers (shims). There are two ways to check for rocker geometry, The T&D is the more cumbersome of the two approaches. Essentially, you disassemble one of the rockers and mount the pedestal portion over one of the valves as show above. You then need to remove the spring from the valve you're working on with a spring compressor tool, hold up the valve so it doesn't drop into the cylinder, etc. I didn't do that. Instead, I modified the stand height gauge so that it would fit over the pedestal and valve tip without interfering with the spring:

Rockers-002.jpg

Using the modified stand height gauge, holding it perpendicular to the pedestal and valve stem will indicate if the geometry is off or not. The T&D kit comes with various-sized washers use to raise the rocker stand, if needed, to achieve proper geometry such as when the rocker stand is too low. In some case, the rocker stand is too high and may require milling the stand bosses on the cylinder. In most cases, milling the stand bosses on the head is not required on stock heads.

[ViperTony]

FYI, this is a good read on what checking the rocker geometry is all about: http://www.pontiacpower.com/faqs4.htm

The easier way to check for rocker geometry involves using tape and a sharpie. I learned this from Greg Good and it's reliable and easier to perform. I'm comfortable doing this procedure now because I've done it so many times. But the procedure requires that you have either the correct length push rod or an adjustable push rod checker set to the correct length and the rocker torqued down with appropriate lash. Essentially, you take a sharpie and mark up the rocker roller tip. Place a piece of tape (optional) on top of the valve stem. Rotate the engine until the rocker goes threw two iterations of movement. This will leave behind a line on the tape/top of valve stem indicating the sweep of the rocker:

Rockers-003.jpg

In the pic above I didn't use tape on the tip of the stem but the line is clear. If you look at the picture above, the second valve has a mark left behind from this procedure. If the sweep is too wide, or the mark is too high up or too low on the valve stem the geometry is off. It should leave behind a very narrow line a hair before the center of the valve stem. I also used an adjustable pushrod length check set to the proper length with zero lash (more on this later). However, there's yet another simpler way to do this and I borrowed Ellow Vipers pics from 6 years ago here:

Without a push rod, take the tape across the valve stem. Lift up the rocker with your hands and slap it down on the valve/tape. You mark up the rocker roller with a sharpie when doing this too:
Valve_4.JPG

Let the rocker fall a few times on the valve to make mark in the tape:
Valve_3.JPG

Remove the rocker and look for the indentation on the tape. If you marked the roller with a sharpie you should see a line on the tape. If not then take a pencil or marker and trace the indentation in the tape:

Valve_5.JPGValve_6.JPG

If the geometry is off then you can use the shims provided in the kit to raise the rocker stand to correct it. Check the geometry again to verify it's correct. At this point, you can check for pushrod length using an adjustable push rod length checker. More to follow....

[ViperTony]

For reference, here are the T&D Rocker Installation Instructions:

direct.jpgdirect1.jpgdirect111.jpgdirect112.jpg

[ViperTony]

Placeholder post for pushrod length check, lash and pre-load.....

You'll need to rotate the engine or camshaft when doing this installation. There are a few ways to do this. One is to rotate the engine manually using the bolt on the harmonic balancer. Another method is to use a bump-start switch connected to the starter just under the driver's side exhaust manifold. I think I picked up a bump start from Autozone for a few dollars. Inexpensive and easy to use.

It helps to have all of the spark plugs removed when doing this. Gear is in neutral. Key in the off position.

You'll need to find top dead center or TDC. I found a useful tool for this. It screws into the spark plug hole of the cylinder you're working on. It's not a piston stop. I can't remember where I purchased this from...

Tool1.jpg

Basically, you screw this into the spark plug hole of the cylinder you're working on, rotate the crank until the plunger tops out on the tool to find TDC. A straw or screwdriver also works for this purpose. Finding TDC is one way to check for pushrod length but there's another method as well. We'll discuss this later.

When I did my rockers I never took pictures of these steps so I apologize for the lack of visuals here. If someone has pictures of these procedures please post them. Hopefully this thread will be useful for folks who decided to install T&Ds.

I started with Cylinder #1 in checking for pushrod length. I rotated the crank until Cylinder #1 was at TDC. You don't have to check every cylinder. I checked three for good measure. Starting with Cylinder #1 I installed my push rod length checker for the intake valve and a rocker arm assembly then I installed a rocker assembly on it. Make certain the checker is seated into the cup of the lifter. T&D instructions state to check for pushrod length with the Rocker Adjustment Screw turned down 1 full turn from the full screw out position. So (from full out) turn the rocker adjuster screw down/in one full turn. This is the initial adjuster position.

For reference:
Rocker.jpg

Next you want to adjust your push rod length check to get to zero lash. Using your fingers screw the push rod length checker until it begins to touch/seat against the cup of the rocker arm. Work it slowly using your fingers to twist the push rod and feel for when the push rod is touching the cup. You don't want to put pressure on the rocker or on the lifter. You simply want to take up the slack between the push rod and the rocker. If you've put load on the lifter you've gone too far. If you're turning the adjuster and its causing the rocker to move down on the valve you've gone way too far. Back it out and do it again. I used my fingers to turn the push rod adjuster until there was no slack between the top of the push rod and rocker cup. I also wasn't able to spin the push rod with my fingers at zero lash. I also felt zero lash by rattling the rocker, adjusting the push rod until the rattle was gone.

Once you've achieved zero lash remove the push rod length checker (without turning the push rod adjuster and losing all that work you just did) to get your push rod length. The tip here is that with T&D you need to measure the push rod with the rocker adjuster screw turned in 1 full turn from the full out position and with the push rod adjuster turned to zero lash. Check a few cylinders to be certain though many tell me this is not necessary I did anyway.

I don't remember what my push rods measured out to be. I'm going to say 7.5". The T&D instructions further states to add another .050" to the final measurement to preload the lifter. So I think mine were 7.55". You have choices for push rods. I went with beefier push roads recommended by Dan Lesser. He ordered my Trend Double-Tapered 3/8" push rods. When I saw these new push rods I realized how wimpy the stockers were.

I used the "Finding TDC" process for finding the base circle of the cam. There's another method recommended by many engine builders and Greg Good educated me on this one. I've used it when I did my heads and cam:

- Adjust the Intake Rocker when the Exhaust Valve For That Cylinder Begins To Open.
- Adjust the Exhaust Rocker when the Intake Valve For That Cylinder Starts to Close.

Do this by watching the valves move on the cylinder you're working on. I'll leave it up to the experts to determine which method works best.

More to come...

[ViperTony]

So you've measured for your push rods and are ready to install them. Using either the TDC procedure or Exhaust/Intake opening procedure to get to the base circle of the cylinder you're working on begin installing the push rods. I started with Cylinder #1. Install the push rods into the cup of the lifter (make certain it's resting in the lifter cup and not the top of the lifter). Install the rocker assembly and torque the shaft hold down nuts to 25 ft lbs. Run the rocker adjuster screw all the way UP till it bottoms out. Now start turning it back down until it just touches the push rod. You want to take up all play (same as you did when you measured for push rod length) but you don't want it putting pressure on the push rod. It is better to have a few thousands play than to have it pressing on the push rod.

If your push rods are the correct length your new push rod will touch the rocker cup with the rocker adjustment screw turned in 1 full turn from the full "Out" position. Due to variations in the valve train geometry the amount of turn may vary from one full turn. If all of them vary dramatically, then the push rods are the wrong lengths. I would worry if the adjuster hits the push rods at less than 1/2 turn or greater than 1-1/2 turn. Done properly, you'll need no more than two full turns of the rocker adjustment screw from the full out position.

Once you find the position where the adjuster just touches the push rod you adjust it down one full turn and that is it. Tighten the adjuster screw jam nut 20 ft lbs. Wash, rinse and repeat for each of the cylinders.

[ViperTony]

Thanks to JackB several years ago he found a way to speed up the adjustment of the rockers. I hope he doesn't mind me sharing this here but here it is:

"I just had some head work done and before I adjusted the rockers I looked at making the process a bit easier. I have adjusted rockers multiple times and it has never been easy. Everyone has had to come back more than one time to get it right. The key is to manually rotate the engine by hand, via the harmonic balancer bolt head. Using the following sequence you only have to rotate the crank two revolutions. This method also assures that the lifters are on the base circle. Taking my time it took me 30 minutes to adjust the rockers, plus, I did not have to come back and adjust them a second time. There is also no need to warm the engine.

One of the keys to proper geometry is the correct pushrod length. With the T&D's you must measure/size the pushrod with the rocker adjusting nut one turn down. You then turn/preload the adjuster down one further turn, that is ideal. Each full turn of the adjuster equals .050"."

Viper_Valve_Adjustment.jpg