Unsafe wheel design, crappy iForged customer service

[Viper Specialty]

I couldn't disagree more. The correct example your looking for would be buying an RT10 and getting wet with the TOP ON. These wheels were designed to operate on the road and if there is an issue that impacts their proper use on the road it needs to be disclosed. Is there a disclaimer on their website stating the issue? Regardless if it affects all reverse mount styles if it is a KNOWN issue it needs to be disclosed. Why don't they disclose it? Well people would hesitate to buy a set of wheels that can cause you to wreck in rain and it would cost them sales. I can tell you if I sold a product that did not operate as intended (no wheels are intended to operate with a wobble), then the products deficiency should be recalled and corrected. Now if the disclaimer is clearly put out then this is a non issue. I have been around these cars for a while and I have never heard of such an issue until this thread.

I am sorry we don't see eye to eye on this, but I think NineBall nailed it yet again above, and I still think my analogy holds water... no pun intended

It is not like if you drive on these wheels in the rain, your car suddenly takes off into a tree and all of the wheels fall off. The wobble will start, and then get progressively worse as you increase speed. This is a high speed problem only, not something that would occur at less than highway speeds. If someone is crazy enough to try and go faster when their car isn't driving correctly, then it is no surprise if they lose control. If you simply slow down a bit, the wobble stops. Even if you have NO IDEA what is happening, this should be a self explanatory solution. If all of your wheel weights fell off tomorrow, and you had a nasty wobble at 60 that gets worse at 65... would you keep going to try out 70? No, you wouldn't. You would slow down until it subsided then keep going.

I really hate to point fingers, but the fact is while this in an "annoyance", the only time it will cause someone to wreck, is if they do something stupid such as try to go faster than prudent for the conditions. This is no different than continuing to increase speed when your car is giving early signs of hydroplaning- you slow down, not speed up. If you speed up, you cannot be surprised or blame the tires for hydroplaning if you lose control; you should blame yourself for operating outside of safe conditions. Honestly, that example is even more forgiving than this one, as you can hydroplane with no warning if you hit deeper water unexpectedly. The condition being discussed here gives PLENTY of warning in every circumstance before it becomes an actual issue instead of just an annoyance.

I do realize that many people have never been told about this, and some may not know, but downsides are often associated with aftermarket components, which may or may not affect you. I can think of DOZENS of examples in the Viper market which are unsafe for the vehicle, engine, etc- and they are not marketed to include any possible downsides in their descriptions, as yes, people may think twice about purchasing. The aftermarket serves a particular market segment, and designs products to work within that general market segment. As soon as someone uses the products outside of the "norm" of intended usage, there is the potential for issues.

Again, in no way am I dismissing the manufacturers lack of a black-and-white notification about which wheels should be used for what purpose.

[Janni]

I think a better title would be: "Unsafe wheel design, crappy iForged customer service"

[City]

Hello fellow Viper owners. It came to my notice and I have been contacted by authorities of this forum regarding a dislike of the title for this tread. Its been accused of being threatening or missleading
I truly feel that my title isn't threatening or missleading. I believe that they did produce a dangerous product (I notified iForged of such, the did not deny it. The actual quotation on their site reads: "dreaded wheel vibyration problem". Its alarming and frightful vibration which is in turn dangerous. They refused to provide the fix, instead they tried to money grab, hence bed customer service. I think my title is fine.
Thank you
Mark

Let's not continue to suggest extremes here. "The authorities" constitutes 2 of us (1 moderator and 1 website committee member) who think this thread is not only fascinating but provides some excellent information as explained in great detail by several knowledgeable members. We take no issue with the thread. We do have a half-hearted singular issue with your chosen title and as such we're pleading with you for some, ANY compromise to soften the "Unsafe Product" claim. As has been discussed in the thread, the unsafe product in question is a specific type of aftermarket wheel, rather than an exclusive iForged wheel. We could have already made the change if we weren't more far more concerned with any possibility of member censorship than with the enjoyment of our fellow members. Since you seem to be outraged at your experience and refuse to consider any change, you might make note of the fact that we've let it go. I only hope you are this outraged with every other manufacturer producing a wheel of this nature as you are effectively not a direct customer of any.

[Chorps]

Some of you are blowing this rare occurrence out of proportion. So, allow me to interject a similar situation that is common.

Drag radial tires. They are DOT rated and legal for use on the road. But, those of us that choose to run them also understand that they do not work on wet surfaces. You cannot go over 40 mph on some asphalt roads, when the road is even damp, or you'll spin out.

So, are the DOT approved tires a design flaw, or do you accept the consequences to get the benefit or appearance gains from running them?

Same situation.

The drag radial tire descriptions I've looked at usually have some sort of caveat regarding the performance and function of the tire... all the reverse mount wheels should have some kind of explanation about the water imbalance potential somewhere in the vendor's ads, IMO.

drag radial examples:
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires...FA+Drag+Radial

The g-Force T/A Drag Radial meets DOT requirements, however it is not recommended for driving in wet conditions where standing water is present and there is the risk of hydroplaning; drivers should drive cautiously at reduced speeds if they encounter these conditions.

https://www.mickeythompsontires.com/...m=ETDragRadial

NOT FOR HIGHWAY USE!.

[1994viper]

Yes sir im a customer. I have purchased from them before. And by you, I am just a current owner of the wheels, which I am. Im not here to entertain the possibility of the previous owner receiving the parts and not installing them, as this is just gas lightning statement, without any factual support. It will be the same if i were to speculate scenario where the previous owner had received the parts but they made the issue worse, and he had to take them off. Please, lets not go down that path. I hope that you may see how its different from buying a used car that brakes. This one is more like buying a car that has issues, and puts people in danger or integrity of the product. Even if you are not the original owner, its still good for a recall years down the road. This is clearly a design flaw, which should be properly addressed by the manufactures. This instance its to be iForged.
Also someone compared this to a DOT rated tire not being well on the wet, or even illegal on public roads. This product that i have is not regulated, and sold to the public, without any desire to make it safe properly even when its possible, unlike with slicks. Ill say one thing. If this type of a wheel is to be a possible blame for an accident. Guess whose parties and names will be on a court paper. And from that point we can do gas lightening all we can . Also, someone compared this issue to getting wet in rt10. I dont think its fair comparison. Its more like loosing roof while driving due to faulty latches...
BTW. Thank you for letting me to keep the title guys. Ill consider, however, changing the title to something like " iForged (rim model number, or general description of wheel design) is dangerous on wet roads, bad customer service. If some one knows the model of the wheel.

[Janni]

Agree with chorps - totally NOT the same.

Tires have varying degrees of performance. All Season tires don't get taken to the racetrack, and drag radials don't get used for monster trucks or mudding. They have strengths and weaknesses (and - as noted- have warnings about using them outside their intended purpose - ESPECIALLY when that purpose is diametrically opposed to the tires main mission...)

I simply don't understand about a WHEEL that can't be driven in the rain. That seems amazingly messed up to me.

[Nine Ball]

Janni,

I've experienced it myself on a few personal sets of wheels, but I'll still put reverse lip wheels on my cars. I'm okay with the slight chance of getting caught in a downpour, and having to slow down temporarily. It isn't asking a lot to slow down in the rain. After a mile or two, the wobble is gone, and I'm able to resume my speed. The wheels can be driven in the rain, just not for excessive periods of time, above 60 mph. It isn't bad enough to make you lose control, because you simply slow down - like Dan mentioned about having a balance weight come off of your wheel.

Educating yourself about what might happen is key. Then when it happens, you will know what is causing the issue, and how to reduce the effect. That is what I'm trying to do here.

You are many, many times more likely to lose control due to hydroplaning a Viper, given it's tire widths on the front and rear. That is a far more dangerous issue than getting some water collecting inside a wheel. Anyone who has driven a Viper in the rain has likely felt it hydroplane. But, we survived.

[Viper Girl]

94V Has a really good tire shop balanced these rims since you got them? If they are not balanced then the water exacerbates the problem...
Personally if it was me, and I had a bad experience with any aftermarket part, the part would be off the car in a heartbeat...

Sell them to someone in SoCal, we rarely get rain here... LOL Then if it rains here, no one goes outside... We sit inside and panic while it's raining!

[KNG SNKE]

This is why we post on a forum, not everyone will see eye to eye. If you buy a viper, used, and it has a FACTORY DEFECT for its intended purpose (which Vipers do have factory recalls), then yes I would expect you to expect Dodge to fix it. In my eyes the inability for these type of wheels to drive in the rain is a factory defect and if there is a fix it should be done. Wheels are not cheap, so why screw the customers? Viper's are not the only cars with these types of wheels and a lot of people daily drive in them. Either way there is definitely a design flaw in the wheels and should be addressed.

[Janni]

Upon further review, I can actually agree with this with one caveat - the seller should have disclosed. The wheel manufacturer should disclose the "potential condition" or "performance limitation" of their product, as well as a recommended workaround.

When you know what it is - you can make educated decisions on what you want to put up with. Huge wheels and ultra low profile tires? More prone to bent rims from potholes. Great dry traction of a DOT race tire? Sacrifice wet weather performance. Reverse lip construction? Sacrifice wet weather feel / performance.

Would I ever buy wheels that would exhibit this behavior? No - but I do drive around on my Sport Cups sometimes - fully understanding the risk.

The one difference is that it appears there's a reasonable / manufacturer "fix" for the wheel issue...

I am with Viper Girl - sell 'em in SoCal!

Janni,

I've experienced it myself on a few personal sets of wheels, but I'll still put reverse lip wheels on my cars. I'm okay with the slight chance of getting caught in a downpour, and having to slow down temporarily. It isn't asking a lot to slow down in the rain. After a mile or two, the wobble is gone, and I'm able to resume my speed. The wheels can be driven in the rain, just not for excessive periods of time, above 60 mph. It isn't bad enough to make you lose control, because you simply slow down - like Dan mentioned about having a balance weight come off of your wheel.

Educating yourself about what might happen is key. Then when it happens, you will know what is causing the issue, and how to reduce the effect. That is what I'm trying to do here.

You are many, many times more likely to lose control due to hydroplaning a Viper, given it's tire widths on the front and rear. That is a far more dangerous issue than getting some water collecting inside a wheel. Anyone who has driven a Viper in the rain has likely felt it hydroplane. But, we survived.

[1994viper]

I think a better title would be: "Unsafe wheel design, crappy iForged customer service"

This one is okay I guess.

[plumcrazy]

This one is okay I guess.

ok, I changed it

[ViperGTS]

When I do crazy things with my Jeep in the snow - donuts for example...
The snow/ice accumulates in the rims and leads to a heavy WOBBLE.
First time it happened to me I was scared to hell!!!
Stop. Look. Cleaned out the snow from the rims and again -> donuts.
FUN.

But, I would not want to drive a Viper with rims in the rain that collect water and start to wobble - hydroplaning itself is dangerous enough.
Stupid design of the rims.

[1994viper]

When I do crazy things with my Jeep in the snow - donuts for example...
The snow/ice accumulates in the rims and leads to a heavy WOBBLE.
First time it happened to me I was scared to hell!!!
Stop. Look. Cleaned out the snow from the rims and again -> donuts.
FUN.

But, I would not want to drive a Viper with rims in the rain that collect water and start to wobble - hydroplaning itself is dangerous enough.
Stupid design of the rims.

Even after doing this ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xilJLDMAg4 ) for hours in my GX470, topping 85mph, does not effect its drivability, as bed as water in my Viper. . I know what a clogged rim full of snow feels. Its peaches compared to what was going on in my Viper.

[Viper Specialty]

Even after doing this ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xilJLDMAg4 ) for hours in my GX470, topping 85mph, does not effect its drivability, as bed as water in my Viper. . I know what a clogged rim full of snow feels. Its peaches compared to what was going on in my Viper.

I am sorry, but you have other problems going on then my friend. I have a Jeep SRT. I drive in the snow. I do stupid shit in snow-filled parking lots. I also have owned multiple sets of iForged and HRE wheels of varying types, and have driven in the rain more than most seeing as its nearly impossible to do ANYTHING in Buffalo stretching more than a single day without getting stuck in the friggen rain, not to mention moving cars around as needed. There is NO comparison between Rain Wobble and wet snow stuck inside wheels. Not even close.

If I was to guess, you likely have either a bent wheel or barrel defect, a hop, some kind of a wheel imbalance, or a suspension issue of some type that is making this problem worse for you than it should be.

[No hemi]

Offer still stands!!

[1994viper]

Offer still stands!!

Thanks, but NO. However, thank you for keeping my thread alive and fresh.

[pony23]

This is filled with good info. I have had the smooth lips wheels in the past and never knew this. I have friends with the same style wheels and will pass this off to them, so they are at least aware of the problem, incase they get caught in the rain.

Thanks Nine Ball for the great explanation.

[Rukcus]

nvm i didn't read the previous post

[commandomatt]

Great thread....and I can see both points made but agree with the buyer beware.

So many products that we buy have an incredible amount of disclosures, warnings, fine print etc........even a cup of Coffee from Mc D has a warning statement. Drives me crazy

Research is the answer. Before you decide to buy something or do something, educate yourself. Then based on what you find out, make a decision. Blaming manufacturers for designs and products they offer is ridiculous in most cases.

I can think of many products that aren't good but still sold without any warnings. One that comes to mind are the 1000's of runflats installed at the factory on our cars.

How many accidents, wrecks and even deaths have they caused ? Were they ever recalled ? How many people are still using them and when they get on a forum like this, they are quickly told to get rid of those tires ASAP ?

If someone buys a Viper with the above mentioned IForged, with runflats installed. Then IForged sucks because they don't take care of a possible issue but Michelin gets no heat for manufacturing a tire that does not work very well as intended.

So where do we draw the line ?

Matt

[KNG SNKE]

The runflats on the car are not being replaced due to a manufacturing defect, completely different scenario. They are being replaced because
A. They are old
B. Their traction is not on par with many other tires


They are not exploding on the street nor causing an unsafe wobble in the vehicle. Also comparing a common sense item such as "Coffee may be hot" is not the same as comparing the purchase of a wheel that wobble's when it rains. "Coffee may be hot" and other ridiculous warnings that you ask yourself why they are written on purchases are just a way to keep stupid people in the gene pool. Now take into consideration the rims. Lets say you drive your vehicle through snow or you have ice build up on your wheel. "Not so" common sense (sarcasm) tells you that you may get a wobble from that yes? Now driving through rain it is not common sense that a wheel will start wobbling due to a faulty design or a design flaw. I've been customizing cars for 16 years now from mild to wild and this thread was the first time I had read anything of this nature.

[commandomatt]

The runflats on the car are not being replaced due to a manufacturing defect, completely different scenario. They are being replaced because
A. They are old
B. Their traction is not on par with many other tires


They are not exploding on the street nor causing an unsafe wobble in the vehicle. Also comparing a common sense item such as "Coffee may be hot" is not the same as comparing the purchase of a wheel that wobble's when it rains. "Coffee may be hot" and other ridiculous warnings that you ask yourself why they are written on purchases are just a way to keep stupid people in the gene pool. Now take into consideration the rims. Lets say you drive your vehicle through snow or you have ice build up on your wheel. "Not so" common sense (sarcasm) tells you that you may get a wobble from that yes? Now driving through rain it is not common sense that a wheel will start wobbling due to a faulty design or a design flaw. I've been customizing cars for 16 years now from mild to wild and this thread was the first time I had read anything of this nature.

OK so...

- In your opinion, the run flats were perfectly ok and capable of handling the Vipers performance needs 100% ?
- Are you saying that these wheels, and any other with the same design are defective ?
- Car was bought used. Lets say there was a 'warning label' included with the wheels when purchased. If this then doesn't get passed along to the next owner, is it still the manufacturers problem even though they let it be known at the time of purchase ?
- If you in your 16 year of customizing have never heard of an issue like this with these wheel designs.....how common do you really think it is?
- Could it, for arguments sake, be somewhat related to how the car is driven in severe weather or, as been mentioned, there is something far more serious causing this 'wobble' such as other defective/worn out parts. The wheel may just accentuate the symptom ?
- It has been mentioned that several manufacturers use this design. So again......how big of a problem is this really ?
- I am not comparing the warning labels on Coffee directly with the wheel issue. I would really hope you would understand that. I am just talking about being overloaded with warnings everywhere we go. At some point it comes down to taking responsibility and not blaming others when there is a problem.

Matt

[KNG SNKE]

You seem to forget the ZR1 came with run flats as well. The problem with those tires was the drivers. Dogging on your car on street roads where uneven pavement, dirt etc is dangerous, i know this first hand.

If the wheels have issues driving in the rain, it is a design defect. They are WHEELS for an automobile. Though people like their cars and keep them in garages they are meant to be driven outside. Same thing if a new buyer buys a car from someone who didn't have a recall done. It is a design flaw any way you look at it.

Not sure how it can be related to how the car is driven. I only read what's in this thread and the disturbing info will keep me away from 3 piece wheels. Almost bought a set last year too. Glad I didn't.

No idea how big the problem is. As stated this is the first I have read about the issue. That bothers me. This is a potential safety issue. Your right, people have to take responsibility but if the information is not provided than that is not ok. I'm very big on safety related things and I'm glad I read this honestly. Not worth the risk.

[parabs]

Being a dealer for many wheels, I can explain this. We refer to it as "Rain Wobble". It is NOT specific to iForged.

It is a rare occurrence that can happen with any brand of wheel, that is built using a smooth lip, or soft lip construction. These wheels have the drop-center (the raised hump on the outer hoop) on the backside of the wheel, which makes the wheel lip appear flat/smooth. The opposite construction would be a stepped-lip wheel, with the drop center towards the face of the wheel. So, the smooth lip wheel has a valley between that hump, and the backside of the face of the wheel. This valley can collect water, as there is nowhere for it to escape. Some of you might even observe that puddle form behind the spokes, when washing your car - if you have smooth lip wheels.

That water getting trapped behind the spokes is what throws the wheel balance off. This only happens during HARD rain, as it has to be raining hard enough for water to collect back there. Driving slower usually makes the wobble disappear. When it stops raining, it only takes a few miles for the water to sling its way out, or dissipate. It is just a temporary issue.

Soft Lip (aka "Smoot Lip") wheel shown below. Notice the drop-center hump on the backside of the wheel. The water gets trapped between that hump and the back of the spokes.



Stepped Lip wheel shown below. Notice the hump is directly under the edge of the spokes, and the backside of the wheel is smooth. No place for water to get trapped.



Many people prefer the Soft Lip wheel, because the center forging is 1 inch larger in diameter, so it makes the wheel appear larger to the eye. It also makes the lip appear deeper than a stepped lip. But, the Stepped Lip wheel is lighter, due to the smaller center forging required, and is better for performance. I run both types, depending on the vehicle. Also, monoblock 1-piece wheels generally have the stepped lip internals, with the drop-center hump on the outer face. Those don't trap water, either.

Stepped lip on my '06



Soft lip on my '13





Tony

As many have said,

"I didn't know this"!

Thanks for another informative post!!

[Hathoway]

Buyer beware, not of the brand in this case, but of the product you are buying. The risk associated with the specific type of wheel in this thread is interesting and eye opening.

+1 on the informative post Nine Ball; you learn something new every day.