We re going to nurburgring

[ek1]

My personal opinion about the Kumho's is they are by far the stickiest and fastest production tire ever put on a street legal car.

- Yes, for about 10-12 miles of relatively mild track driving, then they fall off. Andy's note about Kumhos losing a lot of grip on the last third of a lap mirrors exactly what people that rack their ACR-Es with Kumho's have experienced. The length of Nurburgring is roughly 12.9 miles, so 2/3 of that is roughly 8.6 miles. So in a hands of a very fast professional race driver, Kumhos grip for about 8.6 miles and in hands of people who are slower, they grip for about 10-12 miles, but some people corded their Kumhps in a few track sessions or about the same as 2/3 of a Nurburging lap.

If I had any reservations about the tires it would be the front size. I think the issue is that the sidewall is too short (being 25 series) for the amount of energy and downforce the car can create, especially on rough tracks with bumps, etc. The shorter sidewall probably gives much better steering feel for such a wide front tire but the trade off is no give, curb pinching and the possibility of breaking the bead if the pressures a just a little too low. A smaller diameter wheel with a 30 series version might solve a lot of the front tire issues.
Again, just my opinion.

I think this is 100% correct and also mirrors my observations. I am currently using taller P295/30ZR-19 Hoosiers on the front of my car now and although I give up a bit (about 10%) of front end grip, one set of tires already lasted 3 track days on short and medium length tracks and will last at least one more day.

Like Andy said....more car than tire. Very frustrating to everyone who contributed to this effort, including myself, but I am pretty sure everyone who tracks their ACR-Es already knew that. I definitely did.

[ek1]

Ok .. I am just going to ask the big question that probably on a lot of our minds ....Russ , talking to Andy and the rest of your team, if you got a large donation , or if the money could be raised again , is there any chance on going back to the Ring with these cars and trying it again, since you and all the rest of this Viper nation know there is a 6:5X number that can be had , or is this chapter closed with your team ?????

Thanks again for all your effort that you put into this great achievement in motor sports history ....

Russ, I'd like to know as well. Now that the team has a wealth of knowledge as to what to expect, I am pretty sure the next effort can deliver sub-7 times.

[stradman]

I'm not so sure that they would with the existing tires. Maybe with other tires but then its not production car record.
Look, I know everyone says the Kumho's loose grip on the last 1/3 of ring, but I am pretty certain that ANY street tire when pushed ragged and to the limits may and could fail. I am certain that cars like the 918 had many many 7:01's and 7:02's before, they set, in perfect conditions their 6:57. The ACR had what 3 laps in total? 1 with Dominik, 1 with Mario and 1 with Lance. All of those were on the FIRST lap! So I would argue that out of the box, and just like that, with these tires this car is a 7:01-7:03 Can you imagine if our guys had the resources of Porsche with umpteen laps, weeks as well as months of practice and support(especially from the tire company would would change compounds etc)?
I am certain that in the absolute perfect conditions(ie on a crisp sunny day in October, say a 12 degrees Celsius no wind, and say on a Monday after a weekend of racing where lots of rubber was left on the circuit) and after lots and lots of lap practice this car would be easily do a lap in 6:57 or less on KUMHOS. So I don't get all this hate.
And moreover the same applies with track days. Wear of the tire will depend on many conditions, including style of the driver. I managed 3 track days total on the front tires including 2 days at the Ring(and 1 day at Silverstone). OK it was my first time at Ring(but at Silverstone I was hammering the car) and of course I wasn't running anywhere near what the racers were running with the ACR. Although as a rookie at the Ring I did a great time, I was still just over a minute slower than Dom and crew. Even with practice and time I will never get anywhere near the pros-and I am sure the majority of track day users won't either. So I will never experience the wear that they were experiencing trying to get a lap record-including the tires being toast after 1 Ring lap!. . Anyway If I get to within 20-25 seconds of what the racers do I will be extremely pleased. I personally like the grip and feel that Kuhmos give me and as a rule I do not count on my fronts lasting more than 1-1.5 days(if more then that's a bonus) provided I manage my pressures propertly with hard use(according to my standards at least) I always have an extra set anyway particulalry if I'm away for a 2 day event. I can live with this. Would I like it if the tires could last 3-4 days instead. Sure. Provided I can find street legal tires-not Hoosiers-in same size that doesn't change all my geo. But until then.... That's the way I look at it.

[Stealth]

At least 2 pro drivers have exploded the tires...

1. Driver Safety.

2. TA 2.0 and Corsas.?

[Snakebit10]

My take:

The tires are the weak link not the car. I don't see the wisdom of another shoestring effort again considering what was learned about the tires on this attempt. The tires are just not up to the task for the whole lap.

As mentioned before driver safety. Why risk another blowout and tempt fate as it were. For a comparatively trivial record? They need factory backing for the next run and that ain't happening. These guys went above and beyond with this privateer effort. Cant thank them enough. But we can't forget this is a potentially dangerous undertaking and quite costly. Even with factory support this is a dangerous undertaking. Remember Lexus/Toyota lost a life in LFA testing if memory serves.

[gfviperman]

We should have a big party for the Team and the Cars when all are back and settled ...

[ACR08]

Kumho stepped up and made a tire for the ACR when no one else would.
Kumho stepped up and sponsored the Ring attempt when Dodge would not.

I say props to Kumho.

Completely agree. I'll be buying Kumhos for both mine and my wife's daily drivers from now on as away of thanking them. I hope Kumho takes all this experience and puts it towards producing an even better tire for the ACR in the future.

[darbgnik]

I don't know why every drag racer accepts weather as the make or break of any hero run, and everyone else questions it.

The same effects on power are felt on a lap over a much longer period of time, and the temperatures affect on the tires are even more of a determining factor.

My personal best time at my local track happened on a 15 minute session, on a cool morning. No matter how good I feel, I never quite match it in other less than those ideal conditions. I honestry believe they would have hit the mark they aimed for if the conditions were right. The problem with the ring, was a logistical one, trying to get the conditions they were after, in the limited time they had. If they happened upon the conditions they were looking for, they would have got the result they were chasing after a quick scrub up, not having to chase a second hot lap after the first one. If that had happened, the tire failure debate wouldn't have even come up. But shit happens when you let it all hang out. And they did just that.

But it wasn't meant to be, and I'm still proud to have played a small part in the attempt. They made a solid showing of themselves.

[SharpMan]

A buddy of mine is a rather successful race driver. He says just the ambient temp will affect times a couple of seconds either way so Ring times as amusing as they are aren't a good yardstick unless the cars were run on the same day in the same conditions.

I don't know why every drag racer accepts weather as the make or break of any hero run, and everyone else questions it.

The same effects on power are felt on a lap over a much longer period of time, and the temperatures affect on the tires are even more of a determining factor.

My personal best time at my local track happened on a 15 minute session, on a cool morning. No matter how good I feel, I never quite match it in other less than those ideal conditions. I honestry believe they would have hit the mark they aimed for if the conditions were right. The problem with the ring, was a logistical one, trying to get the conditions they were after, in the limited time they had. If they happened upon the conditions they were looking for, they would have got the result they were chasing after a quick scrub up, not having to chase a second hot lap after the first one. If that had happened, the tire failure debate wouldn't have even come up. But shit happens when you let it all hang out. And they did just that.

But it wasn't meant to be, and I'm still proud to have played a small part in the attempt. They made a solid showing of themselves.

[Dave1968]

Since Kuhmo is the only company that makes a tire for the ACR-E and it is the tire that comes on the production car as standard equipment and this run is for the production car record......wtf is your point???

I guess you are STILL not listening... The tires are NO GOOD!! It does not matter that Kuhmo is the only one who makes the tire - it does not stand up to 26 miles of hard driving - and it is not a case of simply wearing out - the damn thing grenades. That is my point! You dont see Usain Bolt running on Walmart shoes, do you.

[stradman]

I'll be honest with you. Doing 2 laps of the Ring in a Street Viper, in the some of the hotter conditions the cars were running, going at 110%-as these racers were doing- If the tires don't blow then the engine will. I found that pedalling my ACR at about 70% of what these guys were doing in the same conditions, last week, it was my engine temps that were going up not my Kuhmos that were the problem. I started to run at 240 degrees F water temp and 258 degrees oil and climbing by 1.5 laps , which made me slow down to cool, which it quickly did. So one or the other is going to give. Hot laps like these are ideally best done in the cooler months if possible.
Also spoke to Dick Winkles about this-who was on site at the Ring last week. He told me car needs more air and he showed me what to do. So when I got home I removed one of the plastic bars, as well as the plastic mesh from from the grill trim which will increase air by about 20%. Haven't tried car yet but will be on track next week in Holland and so will report back to see if this helps cool engine better.

[dadeuce]

If Walmart writes Usain Bolt a big a$$ check ... Usain Bolt would be blowing the sides off of those skips with a smile on his face.

If your position is that Kuhmos are no good, then isn't that like saying the group should have stayed home and not tried, or run on some non-factory tire? If they had run on something other than Kuhmos, the time would be quickly discounted by everyone watching.

[Dave1968]

LOL! No, I think it was a great experience - It would be interesting however, to try with other tires.

[ek1]

I'll be honest with you. Doing 2 laps of the Ring in a Street Viper, in the some of the hotter conditions the cars were running, going at 110%-as these racers were doing- If the tires don't blow then the engine will. I found that pedalling my ACR at about 70% of what these guys were doing in the same conditions, last week, it was my engine temps that were going up not my Kuhmos that were the problem. I started to run at 240 degrees F water temp and 258 degrees oil and climbing by 1.5 laps , which made me slow down to cool, which it quickly did. So one or the other is going to give. Hot laps like these are ideally best done in the cooler months if possible.
Also spoke to Dick Winkles about this-who was on site at the Ring last week. He told me car needs more air and he showed me what to do. So when I got home I removed one of the plastic bars, as well as the plastic mesh from from the grill trim which will increase air by about 20%. Haven't tried car yet but will be on track next week in Holland and so will report back to see if this helps cool engine better.

What was the ambient temp? Your temps are really high.

Also, please post which panels can be removed to get more air in.

[stradman]

What was the ambient temp? Your temps are really high.

Also, please post which panels can be removed to get more air in.

Outside temp was 85 F and track temp108F! Well after running the car pretty much between 5-6.2k revs throughout for 12-15 minutes continuously(at the Ring which is about 6-7 laps at most circuits without a break and full on-after a good warm up of course- in these conditions the coolant and oil temps rose as described. Dick told me they can and said up to 270 is ok for the oil although best to try and cool down car once you are creeping up to 240-245 on the coolant. He told me that he never wanted to have any plastic grill in the front radiator opening but they did it for looks. I asked him if putting a bigger radiator might help-he said no, they tried all permutations and it was all about air flow to the radiator.So if you can make more air come into radiator then the radiator will cool temps better. Makes sense. Basically its taking a hack saw to the outer plastic grill in the front of the opening. He showed me what needed to be done. I'll take some photos and post.

[ACR]

Outside temp was 85 F and track temp108F! Well after running the car pretty much between 5-6.2k revs throughout for 12-15 minutes continuously(at the Ring which is about 6-7 laps at most circuits without a break and full on-after a good warm up of course- in these conditions the coolant and oil temps rose as described. Dick told me they can and said up to 270 is ok for the oil although best to try and cool down car once you are creeping up to 240-245 on the coolant. He told me that he never wanted to have any plastic grill in the front radiator opening but they did it for looks. I asked him if putting a bigger radiator might help-he said no, they tried all permutations and it was all about air flow to the radiator.So if you can make more air come into radiator then the radiator will cool temps better. Makes sense. Basically its taking a hack saw to the outer plastic grill in the front of the opening. He showed me what needed to be done. I'll take some photos and post.

Do it please!

[ACR]

Can someone ease post the telemetry info on the failed laps vs completed. I'm curious what the projected times were

[stradman]

Oh and also I will be changing my front tow hook as well. It has quite a big wide base just in front of the radiator which is covering a 4 x 3 inch area just in front of the radiator on the right corner. And instead I will be buying the one that's at the bottom of this page here that doesn'b block any radiator area: http://www.viperpartsusa.com/catFrame.php?prodCat=3E. Every little bit of air getting through to radiator helps.

[Russ Oasis]

Because of the damage to the track armco and the fee to the group whose time we took after the incident, we're going to be short. Dom Farnbacher autographed and gave me his drivers suit to auction off to help pay expenses. Any interest among the Viper Nation? It would need to be something significant, so please don't throw low numbers at the suit. We went over by about $15,000 on the last day alone. You can PM me if you'd like to discuss.
Suit.JPGsuit 2.JPGsuit 3.JPGsuit 4.JPGsuit 5.JPG

[ek1]

Outside temp was 85 F and track temp108F! Well after running the car pretty much between 5-6.2k revs throughout for 12-15 minutes continuously(at the Ring which is about 6-7 laps at most circuits without a break and full on-after a good warm up of course- in these conditions the coolant and oil temps rose as described. Dick told me they can and said up to 270 is ok for the oil although best to try and cool down car once you are creeping up to 240-245 on the coolant. He told me that he never wanted to have any plastic grill in the front radiator opening but they did it for looks. I asked him if putting a bigger radiator might help-he said no, they tried all permutations and it was all about air flow to the radiator.So if you can make more air come into radiator then the radiator will cool temps better. Makes sense. Basically its taking a hack saw to the outer plastic grill in the front of the opening. He showed me what needed to be done. I'll take some photos and post.

Yeah...there will be no sawing of my grill.....ever Please post the pictures though anyway. Maybe someone can make something aftermarket or I can buy a spare grill at a junkyard and modify that.

[ek1]

Oh and also I will be changing my front tow hook as well. It has quite a big wide base just in front of the radiator which is covering a 4 x 3 inch area just in front of the radiator on the right corner. And instead I will be buying the one that's at the bottom of this page here that doesn'b block any radiator area: http://www.viperpartsusa.com/catFrame.php?prodCat=3E. Every little bit of air getting through to radiator helps.

What hook do you have now?

[stradman]

Yeah...there will be no sawing of my grill.....ever Please post the pictures though anyway. Maybe someone can make something aftermarket or I can buy a spare grill at a junkyard and modify that.

Well the plastic grill that I am sawing off cost 100 bucks-s0 I bought a spare to have. But in the meatime if I can have more air going into the radiator as a result I'm happy. I've got the standard long tow hook that has a base that attaches to the a bar in front of the radiator....http://www.ipsco.org/Viper_files/SRT...Tow%20Hook.htm

[ACRSNK]

Because of the damage to the track armco and the fee to the group whose time we took after the incident, we're going to be short. Dom Farnbacher autographed and gave me his drivers suit to auction off to help pay expenses. Any interest among the Viper Nation? It would need to be something significant, so please don't throw low numbers at the suit. We went over by about $15,000 on the last day alone. You can PM me if you'd like to discuss.
Suit.JPGsuit 2.JPGsuit 3.JPGsuit 4.JPGsuit 5.JPG

Any chance of putting this on EBay so people could bid on it?

[timberwolf]

Some of my observations from watching Lance's video vs Dominik's. Just from the style of driving, I can tell Dominik knows the Viper better.(I could be wrong) He lost time around 50 seconds in to the lap not up-shifting and hitting the limiter instead of using 4th gear and the torque through the following turns. Did anyone else notice that Dominik is no-lift shifting the car any chance he got? From what I observed Dominik no lifted on almost 3/4s of the shifts which anyone knows can make up huge amounts of time if all added up. Had Lance done that in addition to not missing that shift, he would have matched or bested the 918 time IMHO. Granted he may not have been 10 10ths on that lap like Dominik, typically road racers don't believe in no lift shifting, which in this car makes up time.

[ACRucrazy]

Did anyone else notice that Dominik is no-lift shifting the car any chance he got? From what I observed Dominik no lifted on almost 3/4s of the shifts which anyone knows can make up huge amounts of time if all added up. Had Lance done that in addition to not missing that shift, he would have matched or bested the 918 time IMHO. Granted he may not have been 10 10ths on that lap like Dominik, typically road racers don't believe in no lift shifting, which in this car makes up time.

Maybe that's why the trans started to go?