We re going to nurburgring

[RedTanRT/10]

ek1, maybe I should have been more specific with my comment, "1 hot lap." These are flying laps and I would doubt that they leave the pits on cold tires then try to go flat out. I would guess they run a moderate lap to get the tire temps up then go full race a few corners from the start/finish straight.

And sure, they got all the fresh tires they want for free from Kumho. From Bernie's comments, the track heat is too much for those tires. Not Kumho bashing on my part.

[dadeuce]

There is an interesting interview with Jim Glickenhaus from a few months ago where he highlights the complexities of running a street legal tire at the ring. "it takes an incredible amount of development to make a road tire that can go even one full lap.".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2M8zj9PCyA

I'm not trying to bash Kumho either. They are probably a big reason why the ACR was able to set so many records at other tracks.

[ek1]

There is an interesting interview with Jim Glickenhaus from a few months ago where he highlights the complexities of running a street legal tire at the ring. "it takes an incredible amount of development to make a road tire that can go even one full lap.".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2M8zj9PCyA

I'm not trying to bash Kumho either. They are probably a big reason why the ACR was able to set so many records at other tracks.

The TYPE of tire is the reason for ACR track records. Pretty sure performance would have been the same or better on Pilot Sport Cup 2's or Pzero Trofeo R's, which are used by all top tier sports car manufacturers. There is a reason those tires are standard on the 458 Speciale, SLS AMG Black Series, 918 Spyder, Huracan Performante, etc. If Kumhos were better then all "street legal track cars" would be equipped with them. As we know, that's not the case today. I saw some info last year (don't recall where) that said Dodge went with Kumho because nobody else wanted to do a tire for an ACR due to small volume. In the end of the day the cheaper price of Kumhos makes no difference if another tire costs almost twice as much, but also lasts twice as much.

Anyway....all of this is a moot point, regardless of how bad / how good the Kumhos are, they are what's going to be used, for better or for worse. Back to the subject of setting a record....

[Terminator02]

I may be in the minority here but i fear the coolest part has already occurred. With the original article it mentions as we know this crowd funded effort and the absolutely stock viper with hardly any setup time in less than ideal conditions hit a 703 at the ring. Unless it breaks that 7 second mark I think the baddest event occurred. It has the stick record and is already high on the list. Whining about tires, temps, conditions, budgets, etc kinda poisons how awesome that first attempt is. It sounds like more is in the car but most were confident that traction control off, and better shifting would shave 4-5 seconds alone. So while optimistic, for me, if it breaks 7 min then it is as bad ass as the first attempt but if all the repeats dont get there then it lessens that impact of "yeah we drop that snake off stock real quick to 1 take the na stick record. Mic drop walk off"

[TrackAire]

Funny to think we need to reduce the time approximately .8% to get into the 6's.......less than 1% doesn't sound like a lot, but it can be monumental.

Just shows how hard and how much effort even tenths of a second are required at this level. Not sure if they have one more attempt to try, hopefully they do.

Overall, pretty exciting and job well done up to now. Anything faster is just more gravy.

[Russ Oasis]

Guys, I just read the thread. First of all, I want you to know how hard we're all working. None of us gets more than 5 hours of sleep a night. We have had all sorts of problems, ranging from needing more tires (and DHL doesn't deliver them) to moist (from fog) track conditions in the morning. There is a lot of truth in what many of your posts say and a lot of BS in what many of your posts say. Dale Lomas, the journalist for "Road & Track," is an expert at The Ring. He is the paid Jaguar Ring Taxi driver, and you can take it from me, he knows what he's doing (read: is an excellent driver) and has seen everything here. He told us that we are crazy to think that we can book an hour or two or there and expect to beat Porsche, who spent WEEKS at the track with their full compliment of engineers, drivers, and three cars, waiting for the exact right conditions. How many 7:03's do you think they ran before they got a lap like a 6:57? If we had their budget, I'd be happy to stay here and keep trying until we hit the ideal day. Everybody is working for free to get this done. Many of the guys, like Bernie Katz, Joe Kallas, and Dick Winkles, are away from their paying jobs to make this happen. If you want my opinion of the pivotal issue, it does have to do with tires. The Kumhos are the closest thing to a race tire that's street legal. They are very soft, sticky, and good. The thing that is their advantage on shorter tracks, is our disadvantage at the Ring. We are overheating them. They were not designed for 13 mile long single laps (with VERY rough pavement) in extreme summer temps. When we go out for a flyer, you must do one lap to warm them up and then go for it. That's 26 miles at this track. That's like doing ELEVEN hard laps at Mid Ohio. Would you want to try to set a Mid Ohio record on the ELEVENTH lap? Dale Lomas said that if we camped out and could catch the exact right day where it wasn't so hot that we over-cooked the tires, we'd cut 5 seconds off our time (that would be a 6:58). I can't express how great and supportive ALL the guys from Kumho have been. They have given us as many tires as we want, and even chipped in for us to come back the second time. THEY see that the car and tires will do it, we just need the same advantages that the factory supported teams get. No matter what happens, here's what you need to know: There is a 6:58 in this car on Kumho street tires. Kumho is the greatest supporter of Viper in the world, and we did this on a shoe string budget. I guess I didn't realize that was the case when we started. Ben Keating warned me that it was going to be much more expensive than I had planned and he was right. We still have a couple of bullets in our gun. If our load of fresh tires finally shows up from DHL, we have 2, maybe 3 more flyers on the track this week. Of course, you need to pray for weather. Guys, I'll put our Vipers against ANY of the best exotics. The fact that there's even a competition between a million dollar Porsche and a $140,000 Viper, says it all. Thanks for the support and don't think that because we don't post the times every second that we don't care or are holding back....we're just really busy trying to get set up for our next attempt. A special thanks to Bernie who is sharing this burden, the drivers who show up at their own expense, and the crew who left their jobs and homes to help us because they love the car. It ain't over yet. Pray for DHL shipments and good weather. PS If you know of anyone who hasn't contributed, please urge them to....we could use it.
PPS A GUESS, is that the car is a 6:54 or :55 on slicks on the right day.

[dewilmoth]

Guys, I just read the thread. First of all, I want you to know how hard we're all working. None of us gets more than 5 hours of sleep a night. We have had all sorts of problems, ranging from needing more tires (and DHL doesn't deliver them) to moist (from fog) track conditions in the morning. There is a lot of truth in what many of your posts say and a lot of BS in what many of your posts say. Dale Lomas, the journalist for "Road & Track," is an expert at The Ring. He is the paid Jaguar Ring Taxi driver, and you can take it from me, he knows what he's doing (read: is an excellent driver) and has seen everything here. He told us that we are crazy to think that we can book an hour or two or there and expect to beat Porsche, who spent WEEKS at the track with their full compliment of engineers, drivers, and three cars, waiting for the exact right conditions. How many 7:03's do you think they ran before they got a lap like a 6:57? If we had their budget, I'd be happy to stay here and keep trying until we hit the ideal day. Everybody is working for free to get this done. Many of the guys, like Bernie Katz, Joe Kallas, and Dick Winkles, are away from their paying jobs to make this happen. If you want my opinion of the pivotal issue, it does have to do with tires. The Kumhos are the closest thing to a race tire that's street legal. They are very soft, sticky, and good. The thing that is their advantage on shorter tracks, is our disadvantage at the Ring. We are overheating them. They were not designed for 13 mile long single laps (with VERY rough pavement) in extreme summer temps. When we go out for a flyer, you must do one lap to warm them up and then go for it. That's 26 miles at this track. That's like doing ELEVEN hard laps at Mid Ohio. Would you want to try to set a Mid Ohio record on the ELEVENTH lap? Dale Lomas said that if we camped out and could catch the exact right day where it wasn't so hot that we over-cooked the tires, we'd cut 5 seconds off our time (that would be a 6:58). I can't express how great and supportive ALL the guys from Kumho have been. They have given us as many tires as we want, and even chipped in for us to come back the second time. THEY see that the car and tires will do it, we just need the same advantages that the factory supported teams get. No matter what happens, here's what you need to know: There is a 6:58 in this car on Kumho street tires. Kumho is the greatest supporter of Viper in the world, and we did this on a shoe string budget. I guess I didn't realize that was the case when we started. Ben Keating warned me that it was going to be much more expensive than I had planned and he was right. We still have a couple of bullets in our gun. If our load of fresh tires finally shows up from DHL, we have 2, maybe 3 more flyers on the track this week. Of course, you need to pray for weather. Guys, I'll put our Vipers against ANY of the best exotics. The fact that there's even a competition between a million dollar Porsche and a $140,000 Viper, says it all. Thanks for the support and don't think that because we don't post the times every second that we don't care or are holding back....we're just really busy trying to get set up for our next attempt. A special thanks to Bernie who is sharing this burden, the drivers who show up at their own expense, and the crew who left their jobs and homes to help us because they love the car. It ain't over yet. Pray for DHL shipments and good weather. PS If you know of anyone who hasn't contributed, please urge them to....we could use it.
PPS A GUESS, is that the car is a 6:54 or :55 on slicks on the right day.

Are the tire pressures being bled down after the warmup? Or are tire warmers being used? It seems to be proven by the frequent ACR track rats that the pressures have to be right on the Kumhos for them to survive.

[viperBase1]

Hey all the best to the team at NurRing!

Its got to be somewhat stressful knowing hurricane Harvey is still slamming their home town back in the states (Houston).
Fingers crossed they know all their loved ones are safe and out of harms way. Cars too.

Hang in their guys n' let us know if there's anything we can do to help with the flood recovery effort.

[FrankBarba]

Russ. Hoosiers are street legal.....You guys should try these instead of the Kumos.. Michelin should also be able to help you out.
We appreciate what your doing and you are keeping my crew chief and had mechanic. You luck to have him. I can't get my comp coupe
track worthy with out him....He know myself car too well.

[ACR]

Are we done with attempts?

[commandomatt]

Are we done with attempts?

Read post # 781

[ViperJon]

Russ. Hoosiers are street legal.....You guys should try these instead of the Kumos.. Michelin should also be able to help you out.

How many times......ah forget it.

[Stealth]

Russ: thank you and the rest of team Viper for all that you do to advance the Viper cause! Your efforts are truly awe-inspiring and the results thus far are already a giant win for Viper Nation. Anything else is just icing on the cake. just curious, since you now have more first-hand experience at the ring do you think a car with less downforce like the TA 2.0 on Corsa tires would have an advantage over the ACR at the ring? Thank you and the team again for this once-in-a-lifetime experience!

[commandomatt]

How many times......ah forget it.

I know it.......

[SharpMan]

Awesome effort! Keep it up!

Guys, I just read the thread. First of all, I want you to know how hard we're all working. None of us gets more than 5 hours of sleep a night. We have had all sorts of problems, ranging from needing more tires (and DHL doesn't deliver them) to moist (from fog) track conditions in the morning. There is a lot of truth in what many of your posts say and a lot of BS in what many of your posts say. Dale Lomas, the journalist for "Road & Track," is an expert at The Ring. He is the paid Jaguar Ring Taxi driver, and you can take it from me, he knows what he's doing (read: is an excellent driver) and has seen everything here. He told us that we are crazy to think that we can book an hour or two or there and expect to beat Porsche, who spent WEEKS at the track with their full compliment of engineers, drivers, and three cars, waiting for the exact right conditions. How many 7:03's do you think they ran before they got a lap like a 6:57? If we had their budget, I'd be happy to stay here and keep trying until we hit the ideal day. Everybody is working for free to get this done. Many of the guys, like Bernie Katz, Joe Kallas, and Dick Winkles, are away from their paying jobs to make this happen. If you want my opinion of the pivotal issue, it does have to do with tires. The Kumhos are the closest thing to a race tire that's street legal. They are very soft, sticky, and good. The thing that is their advantage on shorter tracks, is our disadvantage at the Ring. We are overheating them. They were not designed for 13 mile long single laps (with VERY rough pavement) in extreme summer temps. When we go out for a flyer, you must do one lap to warm them up and then go for it. That's 26 miles at this track. That's like doing ELEVEN hard laps at Mid Ohio. Would you want to try to set a Mid Ohio record on the ELEVENTH lap? Dale Lomas said that if we camped out and could catch the exact right day where it wasn't so hot that we over-cooked the tires, we'd cut 5 seconds off our time (that would be a 6:58). I can't express how great and supportive ALL the guys from Kumho have been. They have given us as many tires as we want, and even chipped in for us to come back the second time. THEY see that the car and tires will do it, we just need the same advantages that the factory supported teams get. No matter what happens, here's what you need to know: There is a 6:58 in this car on Kumho street tires. Kumho is the greatest supporter of Viper in the world, and we did this on a shoe string budget. I guess I didn't realize that was the case when we started. Ben Keating warned me that it was going to be much more expensive than I had planned and he was right. We still have a couple of bullets in our gun. If our load of fresh tires finally shows up from DHL, we have 2, maybe 3 more flyers on the track this week. Of course, you need to pray for weather. Guys, I'll put our Vipers against ANY of the best exotics. The fact that there's even a competition between a million dollar Porsche and a $140,000 Viper, says it all. Thanks for the support and don't think that because we don't post the times every second that we don't care or are holding back....we're just really busy trying to get set up for our next attempt. A special thanks to Bernie who is sharing this burden, the drivers who show up at their own expense, and the crew who left their jobs and homes to help us because they love the car. It ain't over yet. Pray for DHL shipments and good weather. PS If you know of anyone who hasn't contributed, please urge them to....we could use it.
PPS A GUESS, is that the car is a 6:54 or :55 on slicks on the right day.

[67PLY]

Heat Cycle help?

[Boosted Motorsports]

Russ. Hoosiers are street legal.....You guys should try these instead of the Kumos.. Michelin should also be able to help you out.
We appreciate what your doing and you are keeping my crew chief and had mechanic. You luck to have him. I can't get my comp coupe
track worthy with out him....He know myself car too well.

I think even if they wanted to try this they can't really. Kuhmo was/is a HUGE contributor to this effort and throwing on a set of Hoosier tires would be a swift kick in the nuts to Kuhmo firsthand and then when the car does a faster lap time on the Hoosier it would deliver the second blow...

[IHOP]

I think even if they wanted to try this they can't really. Kuhmo was/is a HUGE contributor to this effort and throwing on a set of Hoosier tires would be a swift kick in the nuts to Kuhmo firsthand and then when the car does a faster lap time on the Hoosier it would deliver the second blow...

I agree! And the whole point is to be a straight stock car, changing the tires voids this. Yes the other cars have different, better tires, more factory support and tons of money behind them. But that's what makes this even more incredible, the Viper competing and dominating these other cars with this team and crowd funding!

[Racingswh]

If you want my opinion of the pivotal issue, it does have to do with tires. The Kumhos are the closest thing to a race tire that's street legal. They are very soft, sticky, and good. The thing that is their advantage on shorter tracks, is our disadvantage at the Ring. We are overheating them. They were not designed for 13 mile long single laps (with VERY rough pavement) in extreme summer temps. When we go out for a flyer, you must do one lap to warm them up and then go for it. That's 26 miles at this track. That's like doing ELEVEN hard laps at Mid Ohio. Would you want to try to set a Mid Ohio record on the ELEVENTH lap? Dale Lomas said that if we camped out and could catch the exact right day where it wasn't so hot that we over-cooked the tires, we'd cut 5 seconds off our time (that would be a 6:58). I can't express how great and supportive ALL the guys from Kumho have been. They have given us as many tires as we want, and even chipped in for us to come back the second time. THEY see that the car and tires will do it, we just need the same advantages that the factory supported teams get. No matter what happens, here's what you need to know: There is a 6:58 in this car on Kumho street tires. Kumho is the greatest supporter of Viper in the world, and we did this on a shoe string budget. I guess I didn't realize that was the case when we started. Ben Keating warned me that it was going to be much more expensive than I had planned and he was right. We still have a couple of bullets in our gun. If our load of fresh tires finally shows up from DHL, we have 2, maybe 3 more flyers on the track this week. Of course, you need to pray for weather.

PPS A GUESS, is that the car is a 6:54 or :55 on slicks on the right day.

Hi Russ,

I wrote this yesterday in response on another forum to questions about your attempt. You acknowledge my belief about the tires.

Any validity to my speculation of less than optimal top speed and average acceleration in 5th on the straight sections?

I would be honored to hear your thoughts.

I am still stunned everytime I take it to the track at how fast my car is. Thanks for making this effort!!

My post from yesterday:

"Regarding the latest posts about the Viper ACR-E and the latest Ring attempt I am not surprised they did not go any faster. They certainly may go faster but I think there are a couple issues working against them.

The first challenge I believe is that the tires on it are prone to overheating and disintegrating quickly. During the sessions I drove it with the Kumho's on the car I overheated the fronts in about 4 minutes and the car started to push. I took mine off after three sessions and they have never been back on. My guess is that around the 4 minute mark of a lap at the Ring or even sooner the tires are starting to get very greasy.

The second issue I believe is that there are quite a few high speed sections there and the car just isn't that fast. It only goes 170 mph or so on that long straight. That's just not fast enough when compared to a 918 at 181 mph on the same stretch of track."

[Snakebit10]

Nothing we can do about the tire situation folks. Those are the tires that come stock with the Viper. They were not designed with a 13 mile long track in mind. After these few attempts it appears that the ACR will not run with the Performante or GT2 RS on the Ring with the Kumho's. Those two cars don't have the ridiculous down force of the Viper that, along with the road surface and high temps, are conspiring to beat the snot out of any performance tire. It would be interesting to see if the Trofeo R's or MPSC 2's can deal with the Vipers unique amount of punishment it deals out on tires.

I personally don't think the 7:03 is indicative of what the ACR can do flat out but I'm starting to believe it is indicative of what it can do flat out "on the stock Kumho's". Two full blown hot-shoes wrung its neck around the Ring and the tires keep coming up short. That is the limiting factor preventing the Viper from doing a sub 7 min lap imho. No knock to Kumho at all. They designed a heck of a tire that is partly responsible for the Vipers umpteen track records stateside. The Ring was not in the plans when they developed this tire.

[Scott_in_fl]

^^^ This 1000%

Would be nice to spoon on some other tires to see what it can do with Trofeo R; what it can do with MPSC2; what it can do with Hoosier; and what it can do with slicks. Obviously it would take a lot of time to do all of that, but if they had the sets already mounted, it could be done pretty easily if they have another hour or two window.

My hunch is that you can pick up at least 6 seconds with a DOT legal tire that can go the full lap without becoming overworked. Yes, you likely give up some grip due to the compound (and that is questionable) but you pick up traction with all the downforce the car makes and at least you are not driving on greasy tires for the second half of the lap (which is a huge time killer). That would get us right close to 6:57, conservatively speaking, which makes sense given the time of the 918 which has about 40% less downforce than the ACR-E.

I also surmise that a cut slick (likely what Performante was using) is good for at least another 6-8 seconds. That would get us to 6:50, which also makes sense given the time of the Performante which has about 50% less downforce than the ACR-E.

Yes, both cars have more power and accelerate somewhat quicker, but that does not tend to show itself as a factor in the videos (but for the very long straight at the end which is only about a 2.5 second deficit for the Viper). What is immediately evident in the videos is the traction issue in the turns between the ACR-E and the other cars. That is the only real limiting factor at this point, just witnessed by our own eyes.

[13COBRA]

Kumhos will be the only tired used... the only way that would change is if Michelin, Hoosier or another tire brand paid for some lap time; Kumho will not sponsor a lap driven on anything beside Kumhos, and I don't blame them haha

[ChiViper1]

Does anyone know when and if they are for sure going back to make the 3rd attempt?

[13COBRA]

Does anyone know when and if they are for sure going back to make the 3rd attempt?

They said they are for sure...I haven't seen a date or anything.

[AZTVR]

Does anyone know when and if they are for sure going back to make the 3rd attempt?

They said they are for sure...I haven't seen a date or anything.

Friday. Russ just posted on the Viper Ring Record Run page about the two "solo" runs today, first in the morning, second at the end of the day. They inadvertently were held up by traffic on a lap given to them at the end of the day. Durn.

https://www.facebook.com/ViperRingKi...89812711120240