We re going to nurburgring

[ViperGTS]

With all the shifting necessary you clearly see the difference to an automatic/paddle/blabla...system! My guess is 30 secs.

[ACRucrazy]

With all the shifting necessary you clearly see the difference to an automatic/paddle/blabla...system! My guess is 30 secs.

No.

[ViperGTS]

A double-clutch (e.g. Lambo) transmission system shifts with ZERO delay between the gears. No power loss.
A shift in a Viper takes how long? Pressing the clutch, shifting, clutch pedal out... 0.5 to 1.0 seconds per shift? Power loss for some time.

Do the math for a 7 min run with dozends of shifts.

[stradman]

It's about 8 secs difference over 13 miles using an automated geatbox

[Martin]

Honestly, the discussion of an automated gearbox just to set a track record doesn't do anything for me. There are so few cars available that have a real manual transmission today, that I'd never want to give that up. The fun of shifting a car in everyday driving far outweighs saving a few seconds on a track. Plus, added complexity is getting out of control on cars today. Keep things simple - nothing worse than too much technology packed into too small a space. Something goes wrong, and a flat-bed trip to the dealer is just no fun.

[Snakebit10]

30 secs improvement with a DCT you say????????? IMHO Impossible. Ok think about this.. The Porsche 918 has the Viper severely outgunned in the power dept, and on top of that it has AWD and DCT transmission and instant torque from the hybrid power unit. By the 30 sec logic the Viper should not be within 6 secs of the 918's time. Also look at the slew of cars both more powerful, have AWD, DCT and lighter than the ACR that are quite a bit slower than both the Gen IV and Gen V ACR Vipers. It shouldn't even be beating the lighter P1 as it has DCT and 900hp with serious levels of down force.

Also I've seen many tests over the years between the manual and DCT transmissions, even some with the same car that is offered with a choice of either transmission. The biggest gap is in acceleration where the DCT almost always is faster and its usually under a second faster than the manual from different acceleration endpoints like 0-60, 100 etc. But obviously the mag drivers were not power shifting the manual cars or the results would be much closer as we know from watching guys like PDV race and beat many DCT equipped cars by powershifting. When they did the lap battles between the two the DCT in several test was marginally faster with a few that had the manual faster.

Has it been absolutely concluded that DCT is the fastest way around the track? It kind of reminds me of the HP/L and OHV/DOHC attacks the Viper has always had to deal with. Meanwhile its cleaning every ones clock with those supposed deficiencies.

[13COBRA]

30 seconds?

hahahha

[bluesrt]

the drag/downforce is quite a bit higher in the acr.


I wish dom would keep both hands on the wheel more often.

everyone has a differant drive style just like a ball player with pitch or batting i guess

[v10enomous]

I'd love to see a video of the ACR and the Lambo cockpit views with the instruments side by side if someone knows how to do that.

[ACR_Matt]

Donating right now. I'd also be extremely interested in any memorabilia that might come out of this. Especially a "Ring King" poster to go with all the other racing hisssstory items I've collected.

[Scott_in_fl]

Okay, down the back stretch, the Lambo enters the straight at 6:03 and begins braking for the next turn at 6:36 -- which is a 33 second total elapsed time down the longest nRing straight.

The Viper enters the straight at 6:12 (there is a post on the left behind the fence line that we can start from) and begins braking for the next turn at 6:48 -- which reveals a 36 second elapsed time down the same straight.

Losing three seconds here is not that bad considering the aero disadvantage for the Viper. But, we should be getting back more than that amount of time in the long sweepers.

I'll keep looking and comparing sections to see where the time is being lost.

[AZTVR]

I'd love to see a video of the ACR and the Lambo cockpit views with the instruments side by side if someone knows how to do that.

I tried to get the videos I know of synched up at the beginning; by looking at the stripes on the wall in one of the first corners.

http://www.youtubemultiplier.com/597...erformante.php

[13COBRA]

Okay, down the back stretch, the Lambo enters the straight at 6:03 and begins braking for the next turn at 6:36 -- which is a 33 second total elapsed time down the longest nRing straight.

The Viper enters the straight at 6:12 (there is a post on the left behind the fence line that we can start from) and begins braking for the next turn at 6:48 -- which reveals a 36 second elapsed time down the same straight.

Losing three seconds here is not that bad considering the aero disadvantage for the Viper. But, we should be getting back more than that amount of time in the long sweepers.

I'll keep looking and comparing sections to see where the time is being lost.

GREAT eye!

[stradman]

Having now watched both the ACR and the 918 side by side on Youtube and comparing laps synchronously, I don't think the ACR will be able to overcome the 200+hp and faster gearchanges of the 918. I think we can just simply forget about the Lambo time-whether that was legit or not. If the ACR can do a 6:58 or even match the 918, it will truly will be a herculean and extremely respectable achievement. But simply put the 918 gets ahead and stays ahead extending its lead, pretty much from the first 30 secs onwards. Its ability, due to its superior power, to shrink any straights between corners is amazing. And its not that slow in the corners either......Oh and it does cost the price of 6 ACR's!

[Scott_in_fl]

I tried to get the videos I know of synched up at the beginning; by looking at the stripes on the wall in one of the first corners.

http://www.youtubemultiplier.com/597...erformante.php

And you can see within the first mile there is already a 2 second difference, probably all related to manual shift vs. paddle.

I do see some fast sweepers though where we should be pulling back some time but do not seem to be.

That, together with the relative ease that the Lambo driver is going around the track (damn guy might as well be texting while driving) compared to Dom having to wrestle the car in every turn has me convinced 1000% that the Lambo run is BS.

They have less than half the downforce of the Viper and there is no way that car can carry the same (or higher) speeds in those turns and be so planted on a street-legal tire. Impossible. It's physics.

Next time out, let's put slicks on the second car just for shits and giggles, and let's see what she can pull. I'll bet there is 10-12 seconds right there.

In fact, what we should crowdfund next is a prize money pool. Bring a stock Lambo Performante to nRing from dealer stock (not an MFG car), on stock tires. Allow a transparent, witnessed, instrumented timed lap, and you get the prize money if you can beat the Viper time. I'd pitch in. Hell, expand it to any other production street car under $1m.

Bring your NFGT, 720S, Performante, whatever you like. Let's go.

[SSGNRDZ_28]

How many laps did the lambo have under its belt? I don't know but had to be more than one. From the R&T article, the Viper lap started off on a bad foot. With track time things will get smoother for the Viper and the difference between the two will shrink.

That led to some complications: As Farnbacher told me immediately after he set the 7:03.45 lap time on Wednesday, he had no idea where his braking point for the first corner should be—during industry lapping sessions, cars enter the track immediately before the first turn at a slow speed.

He also mentioned having trouble with the Viper's transmission. Farnbacher was shifting at full-throttle to try to make up the inherent time loss of a manual transmission, and after his lap he mentioned that the gearbox was balking, particularly on 2-3 upshifts. In the video, you can see a few moments where he's fighting the gear lever.

Finally, Farnbacher admitted to a bit of a goof: For the first few moments of the flying lap, the Viper's traction control was in its most aggressive setting. American cars reset traction control to full-on whenever they're turned off, a fact the German driver didn't know until he'd started this lap. You can see him prodding at the steering wheel buttons early in the run, eventually getting the car's traction and stability control systems into Track mode.

[AZTVR]

I tried to get the videos I know of synched up at the beginning; by looking at the stripes on the wall in one of the first corners.

http://www.youtubemultiplier.com/597...erformante.php

Here is a second try, re-synching the videos at the first cross over bridge 90 seconds into the run, just to try to see how both cars/drivers are handling the same curves. They seem closer after this point.

http://www.youtubemultiplier.com/597...e-from-bri.php

[stradman]

Here is a second try, re-synching the videos at the first cross over bridge 90 seconds into the run, just to try to see how both cars/drivers are handling the same curves. They seem closer after this point.

http://www.youtubemultiplier.com/597...e-from-bri.php

Can you do this with the 918 please?

[stradman]

Here is a second try, re-synching the videos at the first cross over bridge 90 seconds into the run, just to try to see how both cars/drivers are handling the same curves. They seem closer after this point.

http://www.youtubemultiplier.com/597...e-from-bri.php

Its also running the ACR lap ahead a couple of seconds for some reason. Or maybe you just want to see the curves on their own I guess...

[AZTVR]

Its also running the ACR lap ahead a couple of seconds for some reason. Or maybe you just want to see the curves on their own I guess...

Yes, on the second video, I just wanted to see the drivers "restarted" side by side doing the same curves.

[Scott_in_fl]

The way to really do this is to break the track up into various sections and time each section, for each car, to see where the larger differentials are coming from.

[dewilmoth]

That, together with the relative ease that the Lambo driver is going around the track (damn guy might as well be texting while driving) compared to Dom having to wrestle the car in every turn has me convinced 1000% that the Lambo run is BS.

That brings up a good point and something I'm curious about. Watching the video of Randy Pobst break the Laguna Seca record, he looks to be wrestling the car significantly less. Are the track surfaces really that different, or is there a major suspension tuning difference between the LS car and the NR car? In the NR video it looks to be quite a task just to keep the car pointed in the right direction and I was a little surprised to see that. Awesome run nonetheless, and the driver is a beast.

[stradman]

Here is a second try, re-synching the videos at the first cross over bridge 90 seconds into the run, just to try to see how both cars/drivers are handling the same curves. They seem closer after this point.

http://www.youtubemultiplier.com/597...e-from-bri.php

Yes that track has some major undulations...

[AZTVR]

Can you do this with the 918 please?

http://www.youtubemultiplier.com/597...orsche-918.php

The way to really do this is to break the track up into various sections and time each section, for each car, to see where the larger differentials are coming from.

Yes, definitely. But, really only pertinent after the driver has some laps at full speed and has learned the car's idiosyncrasies at those speeds on that track.

[ViperGTS]

And you can see within the first mile there is already a 2 second difference, probably all related to manual shift vs. paddle.

Multiply by 13 (miles).