Selling through Viper Exchange Be careful

[PittsburghRT]

it all comes down to the seller couldn't sell his stuff, ve could with his facility and knowledge/ seller was happy with the sales till the fact that ve made a dollar off him/now he is not happy with the figure/ kinda like a child not caring about a toy,till another child is interested in it.then the child is pissed he cant have the toy back,cause another child now has it.lol-- who cares if ve got 1 million dollars for it, seller didn't have the way to get rid of it,ve did,

Dude you make no sense! The seller is mad because VE lied to him about needing his extra parts for the deal to go through and then selling some of them as extras to the new buyer of the car instead of including them with the sell. The seller was under the assumption that the parts needed to be included with the sell in order for the deal to be finalized. As a result, the seller gave up thousands in parts that didn't need to be. I am losing brain cells reading some of these responses.

[ViperSRT]

Seems it rests with the consignment contract. If the consignment charge was based on a percentage or a delta of the selling price and the accessories were included in the selling property, but not included in the purchase that would be a no-no. It all depends on the consignment agreement.

[13COBRA]

Dude you make no sense! The seller is mad because VE lied to him about needing his extra parts for the deal to go through and then selling some of them as extras to the new buyer of the car instead of including them with the sell. The seller was under the assumption that the parts needed to be included with the sell in order for the deal to be finalized. As a result, the seller gave up thousands in parts that didn't need to be. I am losing brain cells reading some of these responses.

You must've lost the brain cell right before reading my example of EXACTLY how not including the accessories would've kept the deal from happening.

Seems it rests with the consignment contract. If the consignment charge was based on a percentage or a delta of the selling price and the accessories were included in the selling property, but not included in the purchase that would be a no-no. It all depends on the consignment agreement.

Another +1.

Great point.

[13COBRA]

That's not what happened in this situation and even if it did then you don't lie to the seller about it. That's the whole point of this thread, it's about transparancy and ethics.

How do we know that's not what happened?

That's not lying to the customer. The OP said VE told him they needed that to make the deal; without that, depending on the consignment contract, VE might not have made anything. At that point, why would they even bother?

At the end of the day, the seller was happy with the selling price including his accessories; if he hadn't of been, the deal wouldn't have taken place.

[ellowviper]

I dont' get this aspect "I was told by Bernie prior to sale that I needed to include my spare set of Forgeline Wheels, my new in the box Splitter, and 3.55 Quaife rear diff with the sale of the car in order for the purchase to take place at below my asking price."

SO how much "below my asking price" are we talking? I'm assuming the parts were desired to make-up the difference? Don't know what the Delta was or what Bernie's profit expectations were. I doubt the profit margin was unreasonable regardless. In re-reading some of this, it seems that Bernie was telling you that he couldn't get your asking price without the assessories. Now I'm confused. Were these parts used to meet your asking price or not?

[13COBRA]

At the end of the day, I don't have a dog in this fight. Good luck to both parties, I'm sure it'll get ironed out.

My blood always starts boiling (prematurely at times) when dealers get fried because "the customer is always right", when in fact, they aren't.

Good luck!

[bluesrt]

Dude you make no sense! The seller is mad because VE lied to him about needing his extra parts for the deal to go through and then selling some of them as extras to the new buyer of the car instead of including them with the sell. The seller was under the assumption that the parts needed to be included with the sell in order for the deal to be finalized. As a result, the seller gave up thousands in parts that didn't need to be. I am losing brain cells reading some of these responses.

no, that's not the deal, ve just broke it down like that for the buyer to understand the total price mentally he wanted to pay/ its called sales technique/ and everyone was happy.. now the seller is twisting the story/ ve is going to make a certain figure or he is not messing with it.period/so he told the seller,look I need all this included and for this price for you in order for me to jack with this sale

[JasonMuscat]

The seller was led to believe parts were required to close the sale. The seller then finds out the parts were only received by the purchaser at an additional price and it had nothing to do with the necessity to make the sale of the vehicle. Meaning, the parts in question were requested from the seller with his assumptions it was required to close the sale, only to discover it was an additional revenue generator for the consignment company ALONE. And since the seller was not in contact with the purchaser, there was no checks and balances of what the consignment company was actually doing with the seller’s property.

The parts were requested for the sole purpose of making the consignment company money while keeping the purpose of the request intentionally vague. The sale of the vehicle was NOT contingent on the inclusion of the parts. But VE wanted the seller to assume this so no questions were asked.

You are correct, would have been no issue if the middle man was up front in telling the seller what they were intending to do with the parts. And if the intent was disclosed, of course the seller would have issues. I am pretty sure this is what motivated the middle man to keep things vague.

And by no means is the customer "always right". But this is a pretty clear case of Information manipulation.

Ethics 101.

[smhog]

Looking for clarification.

What I got from Toxic's post is Bernie told Toxic the buyer would only purchase the car if the extra parts were included in the deal. Toxic talked with buyer after sale and found out that was not the case. This is the issue Toxic has from what I read.

Is this the issue at hand?

[bluesrt]

its twisted/ anytime someone goes around bad mouthing someone without going to that person first, speaks for itself-period reguarless of what really happened, the basher is allways leaving something out of the story/ every time! think about that. why not go to them to see whats up? common sense to me...

[OneofOneViper]

whether it's common sense to you or not--the reality is the OP did nothing wrong. The vendor has come on and stated their side of things, the OP has stated his side of things. Sounds like no one is arguing from VE's side about the facts of what the OP posted just that this is business as usual for them.

[JasonMuscat]

Oneofoneviper ... bingo! And since VEs argument sux, ad hominem of the OP.

Piss poor ethics.

[JasonMuscat]

In fact, it could be argued that VE acquired the parts under false pretenses, and the seller saw no reimbursement for those parts . Given the sale of the parts was separate to the sale of the vehicle. It would be very interesting to see the actual verbiage of the agreement between the OP and VE.

[commandomatt]

While very few 'have a dog in this fight', the actual deal and handling of it is important.

On this forum there are 100's of potential buyers (and sellers). While many suggest that the issues should be kept private, I for one think it good that it's brought to light. Ultimately how a situation like this is handled will definitely determine whether or not some people are willing to do business with VE in the future.

It would be nice to hear VE's side of the story, not just some statement that 'everyone is happy' that essentially says nothing about what OP was upset about. If a straight forward answer and details were provided, then people can make up their own minds about whether or not the transaction was done properly

Recently a guy attacked GW in a thread and it would have been easy to take his side until GW came back with further details and at the and of the day, probably gained more respect from readers than if he would have went off-line to deal with it.

I don't think anyone is arguing that dealers should not make money....it is how it is done that makes a difference

[Resident Alien]

This issue sounds resolvable, and the OP can hopefully continue servicing his car with the best viper tech in the region. This thread is going the wrong direction by maybe focusing too much on the trees and not seeing the forest.


It's very easy to understand and sympathize with the OP, and I do, anyone in his shoes would have been pissed off to no end. It's probably harder to appreciate VE's position because it may not have been explained in the best way. Let's imagine for a second that all of the sales transactions at VE were consignment sales like this (assuming an extremely thin commission and no dealer financing involved). Since dealers make most of their money on financing and on healthy spreads between inventory acquisition and sales prices, VE would probably go out of business very quickly, all employees would have to be laid off, and the region (and the whole viper nation) would most certainly lose an enormous asset.


The way I see it, VE handled the transaction this way not to screw their loyal customer, but mostly out of necessity in an extremely tough industry. The customer was not supposed to see 'the making of the sausage' behind the scenes, and VE did their best to save him that aggravation. I've seen the making of the sausage in the healthcare space, and it's much uglier than in car sales. I'm sure people would be extremely upset to find out what the actual cost to the hospital of an MRI is, compared to what their insurance gets billed for it. That doesn't make the OP, a willing participant in that industry, unethical or bad in any way, shape or form. It's just the nature of the beast.


At the end of the day, the OP could have made some more money on the deal by selling his extra parts, had VE taken a much smaller than normal commission (something that on its own would threaten the existence of the dealership). However, the OP could have also been saved the rebuild of a couple of viper engines over the past few years by having the privilege of servicing his car with Morgan at VE, rather than Joe Schmo at XYZ Chrysler Dodge.

[OneofOneViper]

This issue sounds resolvable, and the OP can hopefully continue servicing his car with the best viper tech in the region. This thread is going the wrong direction by maybe focusing too much on the trees and not seeing the forest.


It's very easy to understand and sympathize with the OP, and I do, anyone in his shoes would have been pissed off to no end. It's probably harder to appreciate VE's position because it may not have been explained in the best way. Let's imagine for a second that all of the sales transactions at VE were consignment sales like this (assuming an extremely thin commission and no dealer financing involved). Since dealers make most of their money on financing and on healthy spreads between inventory acquisition and sales prices, VE would probably go out of business very quickly, all employees would have to be laid off, and the region (and the whole viper nation) would most certainly lose an enormous asset.


The way I see it, VE handled the transaction this way not to screw their loyal customer, but mostly out of necessity in an extremely tough industry. The customer was not supposed to see 'the making of the sausage' behind the scenes, and VE did their best to save him that aggravation. I've seen the making of the sausage in the healthcare space, and it's much uglier than in car sales. I'm sure people would be extremely upset to find out what the actual cost to the hospital of an MRI is, compared to what their insurance gets billed for it. That doesn't make the OP, a participant in that industry, unethical or bad in any way, shape or form. It's just the nature of the beast.


At the end of the day, the OP could have made some more money on the deal by selling his extra parts, had VE had taken a much smaller than normal commission (something that on its own would threaten the existence of the dealership). However, the OP could have also been saved the rebuild of a couple of viper engines over the past few years by having the privilege of servicing his car with Morgan at VE, rather than Joe Schnmo at XYZ Chrysler Dodge.

If you have to grey the lines and become unethical to maintain a business model---then it's time to close up shop and start a different business, or alter your model of business to make it a viable business. Making unethical decisions to keep your doors open on a business is not an option if you're a decent human being.

Now I'm not saying this is why VE did what it did---I'm just simply stating your point about making sausage and what is done behind the scenes is justified to keep the business up and running is bogus.

[bluesrt]

If you have to grey the lines and become unethical to maintain a business model---then it's time to close up shop and start a different business, or alter your model of business to make it a viable business. Making unethical decisions to keep your doors open on a business is not an option if you're a decent human being.

Now I'm not saying this is why VE did what it did---I'm just simply stating your point about making sausage and what is done behind the scenes is justified to keep the business up and running is bogus.

I agree, I just think there is more to the actual story

[JasonMuscat]

Ends don't justify the means. No matter how tasty the sausage.

[AZTVR]

Look at the original post.

This thread is disgraceful to the OP in my opinion. The issue lies in what EXACTLY was told to the OP. We have no way of knowing what was said and the OP has DELETED his part of the story. That makes me think that he misunderstood and mishandled this situation.

Lots of reasonable, intelligent people here are discussing this situation without knowing the actual facts. Without knowing what was actually agreed upon. Even though the OP deleted his part of the story, it is quoted later on and still there. Note that he did NOT say that Bernie told him that the parts were necessary for the buyer to buy the car. He said that he was told the parts were necessary to complete the sale below the asking price. He did not say that the parts were needed by the buyer or to be transferred to the buyer for free or sold at a discounted price to the buyer or to be sold separately by VE in order to allow them to sell the car below asking price.. There are THREE parties in this sale who need to be financially satisfied with the transaction.

We just do not know what the terms of the contract were.

Update. I have spoken directly with Ben Keating and will be working with Viper Exchange to resolve the problem originally listed in this post.

[JasonMuscat]

Go figure he did delete the original post. But the original post is included in many of the responses. Again, VE has the opertunity to respond. I, as i am sure others, are itching for the details. They have not commented outside of what oneofoneviper has already reviewed. At this point, argument is still in the OPs favor with this as simply more ad hominem.

[AZTVR]

Go figure he did delete the original post. But the original post is included in many of the responses. Again, VE has the opertunity to respond. I, as i am sure others, are itching for the details. They have not commented outside of what oneofoneviper has already reviewed. At this point, argument is still in the OPs favor with this as simply more ad hominem.

VE did have the opportunity to respond; and did so inadequately, I agree. But, a back and forth in an open forum will never end well when there is a disagreement about what words were spoken. There are folks who have posted above that read the OP's post and misinterpreted what he said that he was told by Bernie. They paraphrased it into what they thought that the OP thought that Bernie meant. Not what the OP actually posted that was said to him.

So, we can't even get it right when it is written down in black and white.

[JasonMuscat]

So, we can't even get it right when it is written down in black and white.

Ha, Good point.

As a perspective of personal arguing tecknique, once your given a chance for a direct rebuttle, all bets are off at that point if you piss it away. And this is where we are.

[Ninjazx71]

I'm glad the OP and VE are talking to get the issue resolved. It's tough to know what really happened without knowing the specific numbers used on their deal. Could the car have been sold under the asking price an VE used the extra parts to make up for that delta, and thus not making much of any money on the deal but keeping happy customers, sure. Is it possible the car would have sold for the asking price, but VE wanted to make more by selling the parts and mislead the seller as to why they "needed" the parts, sure.

End result, I just hope the OP or VE speak up with the real outcome of the situation. I won't judge either the OP or VE, but with reputation being a big part of repeat business, especially in a small community like Vipers, things need to be cleared up. As long as it doesn't turn into "change your story and update your review of our business and we'll give you XYZ" and the wool is pulled over our eyes. I've heard nothing bad about VE in the past so I don't think this would be the case, but an outcome would be good so people know who they are dealing with.

(NOTE: I had this exact thing happen to me when I contracted through a company for the transport of my Viper from TX. Not the major names mentioned here on the forums, so no worries about that. The company did a really shitty job, and I noted it all in their review. Not an hour later from my posting the review I got a call from them asking me to take it down and they would refund part of their fees... they knew fully well that paying a few hundred bucks to quiet the squeaky wheel would save them tens of thousands in lost customers. End of the day I told them to pound sand b/c I didn't want other people to go through the same BS that I did.)

[Vprbite]

Dude you make no sense! The seller is mad because VE lied to him about needing his extra parts for the deal to go through and then selling some of them as extras to the new buyer of the car instead of including them with the sell. The seller was under the assumption that the parts needed to be included with the sell in order for the deal to be finalized. As a result, the seller gave up thousands in parts that didn't need to be. I am losing brain cells reading some of these responses.

This is why I believe this sounds like a communication error more than fraud. You use a key phrase here, "under the assumption." I don't think anything in a car deal should be under assumption.

So when I say communication error, I mean the seller could have been told something like "we have a deal at $XX,XXX but to make the sale happen at that price we will need your diff and splitter."

Seller could have taken this to mean that the diff and splitter were getting installed on the car for the new owner when the dealer took this to mean they needed the diff and splitter to resell to make it profitable on their end. Especially noting that the O.P said the deal was below asking price.

I'm more apt to believe it was an issue like that than flat out fraud. It sounds like they have copies of the contract so is eveything represented in the contract what happened and the seller is upset because he was "under the assumption" it was going differently? "We need these parts to make the deal go through" is different than "we need these parts to install on the car for the deal." Of course dealers should be clear about what's happening, but maybe they thought they were and it comes down to a misunderstanding and poor word choice. Is it clear in the paper contract?

[plumcrazy]

based on YEARS of good history with VE, ill side with them till otherwise proven wrong.