Cam upgrade questions

[Camfab]

I'm betting Dan has, likely both Dans.

[Viper Specialty]

Was this accomplished with the Gen IV head conversion with a Gen V manifold or a different set up? At what cost is your set up?

I'm trying to garner whether its worth dumping another 17K into my 1996, or save to the money, sell the car and move into a Gen V.
I know most will say its up to what car you want and the type of driving you do. I cruise 90% of the time. When i do i am out there for 3-5 hours sometimes in 26 degree celsius (79 F) weather. So I need it to withstand the temps and not overheat. Driveability is very important.

The one that Dan was quoting is not a conversion package, it was a Gen-3 with modified Gen-3 heads and a moderate cam.

I think you may be confusing "Dans", because the price indicates you were referring to our package.

Drivability is the most critical factor in anything I build. If it wont drive well, wont build it. Period. I have turned away more potential basket-case builds than I can count.

[Viper Specialty]

Again, has anyone done a cam only swap to see what gains are made over the 708? Swapping heads, exhaust, rockers, etc is not a fair comparison.

Technically, what you are asking for is basically a 1999 vs a 2000. Why even bother with the cam swap? It is splitting hairs, just compare a few stock cars and average them out. I for one, would never waste the time to do that comparison, thats a lot of money in gaskets, time, and hassle for basically nothing.

[Dan Cragin]

For those that currently have a 1996-1999 GTS with the production 708 cam. If you are considering doing cylinder head work and not doing a cam change, I would strongly suggest setting the intake centerline
of the production cam at 117 degrees and milling the heads for a .2 increase in compression. We have achieved the best results with this. Never seen more than 520rwhp with a 708 cam.

[Martyb]

Technically, what you are asking for is basically a 1999 vs a 2000. Why even bother with the cam swap? It is splitting hairs, just compare a few stock cars and average them out. I for one, would never waste the time to do that comparison, thats a lot of money in gaskets, time, and hassle for basically nothing.

But in my opinion it's the only way to see the gains from the better cams Dan. I have heard so many times that I wasted my money doing the upgrade to the 708. So can you substitute a better cam, have the same driving manners, run on the factory pcm and gain 35 horsepower with the so called better cams? I'm just asking, I honestly don't know.

[WDW MKR]

But in my opinion it's the only way to see the gains from the better cams Dan. I have heard so many times that I wasted my money doing the upgrade to the 708. So can you substitute a better cam, have the same driving manners, run on the factory pcm and gain 35 horsepower with the so called better cams? I'm just asking, I honestly don't know.

Are you saying you gained 35 rwhp with only a swap to the 708 cam in your '01?

[Fatboy 18]

I wish a full head conversion was in the budget, sadly its not. Makes it even worse that the Canadian dollar is low. IT costs me an extra 30+% on everything I purchase.
I'm not going for big power in this venture. I just want a bit more kick and better sound. I don't track my car either.

Respectfully, the monies people are talking here for modifying the engine (Heads and Cam) seem crazy for a few extra HP!

Many say the best bang for buck is to go with 355 rear end which makes the car feel much faster.
As for sound, the exhaust note that comes out of my car is armageddon! Its simply Awesome.
I still have stock headers (I did buy a used set of Belanger Headers off the Alley, had them shipped to the UK,only to find I was stitched up as one side were bent and had previous patch repairs)

Anyway back to my set up. Stock headers, into 3" tube cat delete and belanger cat back exhaust, that equates to 127db and sounds Awesome!

[Martyb]

Are you saying you gained 35 rwhp with only a swap to the 708 cam in your '01?

No, that's just a number I threw out. Just wondered what kind of numbers the better cams could generate while keeping stock drivability, run on stock pcm, etc.

[Viper Specialty]

But in my opinion it's the only way to see the gains from the better cams Dan. I have heard so many times that I wasted my money doing the upgrade to the 708. So can you substitute a better cam, have the same driving manners, run on the factory pcm and gain 35 horsepower with the so called better cams? I'm just asking, I honestly don't know.

Note quite. You stated you were curious about a 708 cam swap in a creampuff. My argument is that it is pointless, and a ton of time and effort for virtually nothing. The 1999 vs. 2000 is effectively the same comparison, and based on average numbers, there is no significant difference between creampuffs and earlier engines in stock form. Hence, why its an irrelevant cam swap to bother with. The cams are literally nearly the same specification with a slightly different lobe separation angle.

If you are now making the argument for Cam-Only Gen-2 swaps vs. the 00+ cam, that is a completely different conversation altogether, and yes, there are substantially better cam grinds out there then the 708, that make more power, drive like stock, and have no issues. The costs for one of these setups would be nearly identical to swapping the 708, its the same parts and process... so why bother with the 708? I think that is the argument everyone is making.

All that said, the Cam isn't the issue. The Gen-2 heads are the main problem with making lot of power, they simply don't have the flow of later heads. So far as the limits of properly driving cars, look no further than our own VS-X700 package. These setups make 700 horsepower, on the OE PCM, drive like a factory setup, WITH CONVERTERS and still pass emissions! To add insult to injury, this is done without even porting the heads yet. This is a 250 horsepower gain over stock... so, yes, there are substantially better setups than stock, in many ways.

Do I have numbers for cam swaps on stock heads? Nope. Personally, I would not bother, and same argument applies. Its a lot of money and work to try and squeeze power out of heads that are sub-par at best, swapping Viper cams is not like an LS1 to say the least. Its a given they will make more power than a 708 just based on extrapolated evidence, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to come to that conclusion given how small the OE cam actually is. But, how much of a gain with no other changes in the heads... that I could not really tell you. I would expect Gen-2 castings without porting to top out somewhere in the 525-550 range, and no cam no matter how large is going to push them much further, and of course the drivability is going to suffer.