Anyone ever try Aerogel insulation blanket material for the sills

[Martin]

I messed with Aerogel a while back, and it's neat stuff. You can basically hold a blow torch to the stuff and put your hand on the other side and you don't feel the heat.

Fairly recently, I've found a source for Aerogel blanket insulating material. It's 10mm thick, and it's fairly easy to work with (comes in sheets that you can cut to fit around the cats, etc.). Supposedly, it's anywhere from 2x to 10x as effective for high-temperature (up to 1200 degrees) insulation as anything else out there.

I was wondering if anyone has messed with the stuff and whether it works to help control the heat in the side sills of these cars. If nobody has experimented with it yet, I think I'm going to order a roll of it and wrap my whole exhaust with it and do a thermal test. With some luck, it might help with some of the paint discoloration and wrap-bubbling that we're experiencing.

[donk_316]

What the source? Links?

[Martin]

What the source? Links?

http://www.buyaerogel.com/product/py...-mm-thickness/

[Camfab]

Looks like amazing stuff. The only issue I see is that this stuff is not intended or so it seems that placing it on your exhaust where it would be exposed to the elements. It says it's inherently dusty, and possibly a carcinogen ( you've got to read the full MSDS). I think lining your side sills with it would likely be a good application. Too bad you can't get it lined with a softer metallic material that could keep the dust at bay. I think directly wrapping your exhaust with something that's that efficient and likely to hold moisture will spell a very short lifespan for your exhaust unless it was at least 321 or Monel. You've certainly got my curiosity up.

[Scott_in_fl]

I think you're definitely onto something here. Looks just like the stuff wrapped around boiler piping, etc., which may be its primary application and would make sense for wrapping an exhaust that is buried within an enclosed sill. You might wrap with this stuff and then wrap over it with gold foil or something else that can keep any dust somewhat contained.

In other words, the Pyrogel sheet could be the first layer of what might be a multi-layer sandwich of heat insulators. This could be very, very effective assuming that the exhaust pipe itself can withstand the trapped heat (and not being able to be cooled).

I suppose if you run a straight pipe from the cat back, and it is made of Inconel, and then you wrap that with the sandwich, that might be the solution.

[Martin]

I'm thinking of wrapping everything downstream from the first cat (leave that one unwrapped), or maybe just use it to line the side sills. The main concern I have is that the sills get really hot and screw up the paint and the clear wrap. If I could lower the temp a bit so that the sills stay cool to the touch, that would be great.

Good thing is the stuff is pretty cheap now. When I first saw it about five years ago, it was around $30/ sq. ft. and now that it's down to around $8, it wouldn't hurt to give it a try.

What's also nice about it is that it's hydrophobic, so it won't saturate with water if the sills get wet. Reading through the MSDS, it seems pretty safe, too (CA is the only state that says one of the components in may be a carcinogen, and I believe that was Titanium Dioxide, which nobody else thinks is a problem).

[Voice of Reason]

This thread has given me an idea on what to do with some asbestos wrapped pipes I found in my new (very old) house.

Hmmmm

[OTHER SNAKE OWNER]

I'm very new here and very green on Dodges/Vipers. My ACR-E is on order.

I was looking into mods and came across this:

https://theviperstore.com/Viper5_Pro...ce_Exhaust.htm

Bottom of the page. Part #FSI-SSI-V3

Similar to the discussion?

Does wrapping the exhaust void the factory warranty in any way?

[ViperGeorge]

I'm very new here and very green on Dodges/Vipers. My ACR-E is on order.

I was looking into mods and came across this:

https://theviperstore.com/Viper5_Pro...ce_Exhaust.htm

Bottom of the page. Part #FSI-SSI-V3

Similar to the discussion?

Does wrapping the exhaust void the factory warranty in any way?

Looks like similar or the same stuff. And probably would void the warranty on the exhaust, maybe the whole car. I think farting in the car voids the warranty now.

[Martin]

^^^^lol

[Jack B]

If you read the specs close, they indicate the product releases/creates a dust, one way to interpret this is that the material itself has no capability to maintain its initial structural integrity. Basically it is for a static application. The vibration and physical pounding inside the sill may have a negative affect. Personally if I were going to use the material I would call their tech support to confirm the application.

[Vprbite]

My thought with wrapping any exhaust component is physical wear from bits of dust and sand, etc but also you would turn your cats into a crucible. Lining the sills themselves is something I've thought about on my 06, but hi flows and corsa helped a lot.

[Angleiron]

Wouldn't high flow cats lower the sill temps?

[Martin]

High flow cats would lower the sill temps, but also lower your chances of keeping the warranty intact...

Regarding the dust with this stuff, when I played with it, it really only releases dust when you're cutting or forming it, and the "XT-E" material supposedly produces less dust than the older XT stuff. I think that it might be OK as a sill liner - but there is a chance that the exhaust moving around will beat the stuff up a bit. In any event, it's the cat closest to the sills that causes the most problem, and if that area can be protected, it would solve a lot of problems.

[TrackAire]

I think (and I may me totally wrong here) that the issue is the exhaust it pretty much contained in a chamber, very much like an oven. So you have to ask yourself, if you wrap a turkey with aerogel and put it in the oven for 5 hours, would it cook the meat? My answer is yes, because eventually the temps heat soak the area (in this case inside the sills) and you'll still have the same issue. So if you drive the car for a couple of hours under load (like cruising at 70-80 mph) the sills will still got very hot IMO. Although the aerogel my be a barrier to a torch flame, it cannot stop the air molecules from heat soaking an enclosed area. Now if you could run with no side sills, then you could probably touch the aerogel product and not burn your hands.

If a little airflow could be introduced through the sills, that would make a huge difference is dissipating the heat, very much the same effect of trying to cook a turkey with the oven door open.

[Martin]

I think (and I may me totally wrong here) that the issue is the exhaust it pretty much contained in a chamber, very much like an oven. So you have to ask yourself, if you wrap a turkey with aerogel and put it in the oven for 5 hours, would it cook the meat? My answer is yes, because eventually the temps heat soak the area (in this case inside the sills) and you'll still have the same issue. So if you drive the car for a couple of hours under load (like cruising at 70-80 mph) the sills will still got very hot IMO. Although the aerogel my be a barrier to a torch flame, it cannot stop the air molecules from heat soaking an enclosed area. Now if you could run with no side sills, then you could probably touch the aerogel product and not burn your hands.

If a little airflow could be introduced through the sills, that would make a huge difference is dissipating the heat, very much the same effect of trying to cook a turkey with the oven door open.

Actually, Aerogel is a unique material in that it pretty much stops heat in its tracks. So, using your analogy, if you wrapped a turkey in the stuff for 5 hours in the oven, it might come out slightly warm. I first played with the stuff when I worked at NASA and some of the materials guys had a bunch that we were all marveling over. The blanket material isn't quite as perfect a non-conductor as the actual gel, but it is really good.

I'm sure you're right that eventually it will transfer heat, but it will delay that heat transfer for quite a while. I'm thinking maybe just long enough to minimize damage at the track. In normal driving, there doesn't seem to be much problem with the stock setup, but track runs get those cats super hot and everyone has issues with protective wraps, and the lighter colored cars definitely show signs of paint yellowing (GTS-R guys will be complaining like crazy - just like they did with the original GTS-R).

It would be great to figure out how to vent the cats so that air flows through. Over the years, I've seen all kinds of attempts to do it (generally drilling holes in the wheel wells), but the results have been mixed, and I don't like the idea of drilling holes in my car...

aerogelcrayons.jpg
Aerogel-Insulation-2.jpg

[Jack B]

High flow cats would lower the sill temps, but also lower your chances of keeping the warranty intact...

Regarding the dust with this stuff, when I played with it, it really only releases dust when you're cutting or forming it, and the "XT-E" material supposedly produces less dust than the older XT stuff. I think that it might be OK as a sill liner - but there is a chance that the exhaust moving around will beat the stuff up a bit. In any event, it's the cat closest to the sills that causes the most problem, and if that area can be protected, it would solve a lot of problems.

The rear cat does generate the greatest amount of heat, however, the discoloration happens at the horizontal seam of the hood. I have posted infrared camera pics showing the gradients. This is why removing the front cat solves the biggest issue which is the discoloration. Two high flow cats per side would probably help.

[Martin]

That's really good to know - the Suntek installer was pointing out to me where most of the wrap and paint damage happens, but it would be good to see where the hottest parts really are. With some luck, maybe it's possible to just apply the Aerogel to the areas where damage is likely to occur. There are a number of different products, some good for wrapping things, and some good for using an adhesive flexible tile directly to surfaces. If the area that gets damaged is a good candidate for the adhesive version, that would solve the problem of super-heating the cats.

I basically just want to shield the areas that are most prone to heat damage - without causing any other problems (cats can handle a lot of heat, but a good rule of thumb is to not make it impossible for them to shed heat...).

[345s-bspinnin]

Aerogel is legit and does possess great thermal properties (worked with it during my days at NASA). The C7 corvette has factory installed aerogel around the transmission tunnel.

See item 5 in: http://blog.caranddriver.com/10-awes...e-c7-corvette/

[Martin]

Aerogel is legit and does possess great thermal properties (worked with it during my days at NASA). The C7 corvette has factory installed aerogel around the transmission tunnel.

See item 5 in: http://blog.caranddriver.com/10-awes...e-c7-corvette/

Yup - from what I can glean from Google searches, they're using the exact same 10mm XT-E blanket that I'm looking at. It's not quite as good as the "real" Aerogel that is in the pictures above, but it's pretty darned close and a heck of a lot more durable.

[darbgnik]

They started using that stuff up here on water pipelines in our oil industry about 5 years ago, due to our extreme cold. But in every installation I've seen it in, it has it covered in a sprayed on rubber type coating. They deem it very important to seal up every crack or opening. I'd assume this is to keep it dry. If this is the case, if it gets wet in the sills, it should get quite a bit less efficient. The XT-E might be different.

Just guessing over here, as my background is electrical......

[Martin]

They started using that stuff up here on water pipelines in our oil industry about 5 years ago, due to our extreme cold. But in every installation I've seen it in, it has it covered in a sprayed on rubber type coating. They deem it very important to seal up every crack or opening. I'd assume this is to keep it dry. If this is the case, if it gets wet in the sills, it should get quite a bit less efficient.

Just guessing over here, as my background is electrical......

There are a bunch of different products - some for lower temperature applications, and some for super high temperature applications. The lower temp stuff is pretty fragile, so I would guess that they cover it with something strong so that it doesn't get shredded.

Aerogel is hydrophobic, and it doesn't absorb water at all. That's one of the unique properties of it - unlike fiberglass which soaks up water, Aerogel just sheds water. It really is cool stuff - and I'm glad it isn't super expensive anymore. Back in the day, a small piece of it would run $100. Now, you can get rolls of it for about $8 a square foot.

[Renn23]

I just placed an order for some AeroGel XT-E (think they call it PyroGel - 10mm thickness and rated to 1200 F) There is a seller on EBay who sells it for $11 per square foot. Hopefully I'll have it installed shortly and can report back in the next few weeks on how well it works.

[ViperGrunt]

I don't have a great deal of side seal heat and have never burned my hand or calf, but then again I don't wear capris. My biggest problem is side seal discoloration. I've put about 4k miles since I bought an '04 and the black paint on the side seals now look like matt black. I think it's only a matter of time before the paint bubbles. I had an '01 with a heat seal between the exhaust and the side seal but haven't seen it on the '04 anywhere. Has anyone insulated the side seal instead of the wrapping the exhaust?

[Martin]

My '09 ACR had a sandwich aluminum heat shield in the sills, and it seemed to do a pretty good job. But, I swapped the cats out for hi-flow units, and then I crashed the car before I could do a full analysis - so not enough data points on that one....

So far, on my purple '17 ACR, the Suntek seems to be holding up pretty well. Once I'm feeling a bit better, and it's not so damned hot outside, I plan to install the Aerogel blanket and see if that improves the sill heat problem any. These sills are a major pain in the ass to remove - just a PSA.