How to tell whether a gen 2 has forged internals or not

[My98RT10]

...Time for Grandpa to take a nap and not tell any stories of the early days of the Snake ,as appears everyone already knows the end of each chapter.

Oh no, please don't do this!

I think the majority of us here is loves to here the real stories from "tier 1" Viper guys like you and others!!! I see this happen in all areas of life that information presented in the Internet is taken for granted but often it shouldn't. It became so easy to "create facts" this way. Mostly you don't know the track record of the source of information to at least estimate the validity of the presented information. Therfore, I believe that "stories" from guys like you are so exceptionally valuable to the Viper community.

So, please don't stop, please!

[BLRDViper]

"By the way the revised cam and pistons were due primarily to the poseurs and whiners of the day , who didn't like the car shaking ( when many of us loved it)."

....and still do love it.
BLRD

[BrianACR]

I'm going to be putting that 708 cam into my 'creampuff' so it will shake more lol.
Bill, thanks for all the info you share with us!! It's so great to have somebody here that knows so much about our cars and is willing to share his vast knowledge with us!
No naps allowed!! lol

[Matt M, Pa]

As one that has been around Vipers for 20 years...I'm glad to see "Viper hissstory" welcomed here. I've been with one of our Vipers at a cruise, cars & coffee, etc...and heard other early Viper owners say some crazy things. I remember a local guy (who's really a nice guy) tell me how rare it was to have the polished 17" GTS wheels on his '93..."they were hard to get then." There's another guy with a sidepipe Viper (1992-1995) who is just positive that his came as the rare "ketchup and mustard" scheme with yellow wheels and decals....even though the decal has the Striker Viper on them...

I've been involved with the car hobby for a very long time and I avoid at all costs getting into discussions about these things...so I just say "nice car" and move on...

[Camfab]

25 posts later and no response from the original poster............. As an FYI, I'd love to have one of those early block 2000 engines as I think those would be the ultimate engine to build. Funny how no one knows or talks about this.

[river rat]

Just went and checked my 2000 gts and it has a build date of 11/99, hmmm

[Boosted Motorsports]

25 posts later and no response from the original poster............. As an FYI, I'd love to have one of those early block 2000 engines as I think those would be the ultimate engine to build. Funny how no one knows or talks about this.

Pretty sure this is what is in my car. Is it just because of the sleeves as Bill was mentioning or other reasons?

[Camfab]

Pretty sure this is what is in my car. Is it just because of the sleeves as Bill was mentioning or other reasons?

I don't believe Bill mentioned anything about the sleeves. If you re-read my earlier post, I outlined why I believe those early cars were so strong. I will say this, I've owned two 2000 ACR's both built after the block changeover. Both cars were built on the same day and were one hour a part on their build. I dyno'd both cars and both layed down exactly 424 RWHP on a Dynojet. it is true, that I have seen other 2000 plus cars coming in with numbers substantially lower than my results. My personal opinion is that the eutectic piston cars are a great starting point for a naturally aspirated build. The rods are longer and the lighter (due to a reduction in physical size) pistons lend themselves to a really responsive and powerful N/A package. If supercharging or turbocharging was your ultimate goal, then the earlier cars make for a better starting point. In the end though, if your going crazy, it really doesn't matter anyway, because a serious build will dump the stock pistons (forged or not) and step up to a properly designed per application piston.
In my case, I'm a super OCD perfectionist and I had to have a 2000 because of my color choice. Personally I feel the Vipers exhaust note sounds like the stereotype UPS truck. I knew the OEM cam and heads on all Gen II's was not going to meet my tastes. As far as why the engineers went with eutectic pistons and a slightly smaller cam on 2000 + cars.... I do believe it really was for emission purposes, specifically to meet the much tighter 2000 plus CA standards. Again, I do believe that those bleeddown lifters which actually make the cam seem smaller than it actually is, provide additional low end torque. Again this explains why these engines would perform better on a road course coming out of a corner.
Either way, this thread has been totally sidetracked, but hey it really doesn't matter because the guy who wrote it seems to have disappeared.
I'm happy Bill always jumps in to defend these cars, because the early myths started by a bunch of clowns back in the day seems to have been turned to fact, which is wrong.

[RTTTTed]

I don't believe Bill mentioned anything about the sleeves. If you re-read my earlier post, I outlined why I believe those early cars were so strong. I will say this, I've owned two 2000 ACR's both built after the block changeover. Both cars were built on the same day and were one hour a part on their build. I dyno'd both cars and both layed down exactly 424 RWHP on a Dynojet. it is true, that I have seen other 2000 plus cars coming in with numbers substantially lower than my results. My personal opinion is that the eutectic piston cars are a great starting point for a naturally aspirated build. The rods are longer and the lighter (due to a reduction in physical size) pistons lend themselves to a really responsive and powerful N/A package. If supercharging or turbocharging was your ultimate goal, then the earlier cars make for a better starting point. In the end though, if your going crazy, it really doesn't matter anyway, because a serious build will dump the stock pistons (forged or not) and step up to a properly designed per application piston.
In my case, I'm a super OCD perfectionist and I had to have a 2000 because of my color choice. Personally I feel the Vipers exhaust note sounds like the stereotype UPS truck. I knew the OEM cam and heads on all Gen II's was not going to meet my tastes. As far as why the engineers went with eutectic pistons and a slightly smaller cam on 2000 + cars.... I do believe it really was for emission purposes, specifically to meet the much tighter 2000 plus CA standards. Again, I do believe that those bleeddown lifters which actually make the cam seem smaller than it actually is, provide additional low end torque. Again this explains why these engines would perform better on a road course coming out of a corner.
Either way, this thread has been totally sidetracked, but hey it really doesn't matter because the guy who wrote it seems to have disappeared.
I'm happy Bill always jumps in to defend these cars, because the early myths started by a bunch of clowns back in the day seems to have been turned to fact, which is wrong.

Just to add my $.02 the creampuffs came with a larger oil pan for better oiling and the rear of the creampuff oil pan has 3 ribs compared to the early 2 rib pan. I read "Longer rods and lighter pistons". Having build a "Short stack" 440 back in the day I can attest to the hp advantages of longer rods, increasing piston dwell and their hp. It was "Smokey" that started the long rod short piston craze that increased hp and modern engines look to have been improved in this way. Thanks for the info CamFab and Mr. Pemberton.

[GTS Dean]

Again, I do believe that those bleeddown lifters which actually make the cam seem smaller than it actually is, provide additional low end torque. Again this explains why these engines would perform better on a road course coming out of a corner.

If you're coming thru a corner apex and not already turning 3.5k+ rpm (near the engine's torque peak), you are going to get smoked by me in my mostly stock lumpy cam forged motor car with handling out the wazoo.

[Bill Pemberton]

Thanks and to me the extremely funny irony is how one seems to always associate the situation just to 2000 , and not like there were much to change in 2001 or 2002 except for ABS. We continue into the next generation with a bit bigger block but plenty of similarities and yet Woodhouse Motorsports Division pops out over 300 Paxton Supercharged modded Snakes with nary an issue. Nuff said, but there are so many examples in automotive culture where perception caused many to believe it was reality -- nature of the beast with folks passionate about their automobiles, but one still needs to work to dispel myths when possible?

[Desert Venom Racer]

Thanks for being there to set the record straight Bill. I had never heard the full story.

[Bill Pemberton]

No problem Desert Tracksnake, I am sure over the coming years plenty of us old timers will contribute more and more to clarify things that happened during the Viper's tenure on this blue Planet. Some of the rumors/perceptions have actually helped the Viper sell better or built a mystique, so it is often hard to rearrange the myths. But, the history and sidebars that can be contributed by folks who have been active in the Viper community for years are all part of the fun and passion of this wondrous car. I know you can tell some great stories of racing your Vipers and I think there will be a point in the future where a section devoted to exploits from the past will be viewed with pride for those owning the marquee?

Stories from Jon B, Maurice, and Ralph are always noted, wanted and well received, but I encourage many to jump in with their tales and remembrances to keep the mystery alive. We can debate back and forth about many things , but it is awfully hard not to open our eyes to what a remarkable machine we all own , when we park it at a car show and the throngs of folks asking questions , taking pictures, smiling and laughing , overshadows so many exotics one might suppose would have a bigger draw.

[river rat]

Didn't all the Gen3 and Gen4 vipers have hypereutectic pistons? Whats the big deal?

[Bill Pemberton]

Yes , River Rat, my point exactly .......................

[GTS Dean]

The new cast pistons are better in almost every way relative to forged, except in their ability to handle higher cylinder pressures from boosted applications. The biggest reason Dodge initially went to them is their lower thermal expansion when cold, which allows tighter wall clearances, reducing blowby and startup emissions.

[ViperRyan]

Bottom line is that you can't tell. Just because a car was built in '99 doesn't mean it has '99 spec pieces. The engines were redesigned for MY 2000. One note that most people don't know about the 2000 model year is that there was an engine block update which occurred somewhere if my memory serves me correctly in Nov of '99. The early blocks (2000 MY prior to Nov) had a special sleeve material that was absolutely bullet proof if I recall. The problem was most individuals couldn't/didn't break them in properly. These motors when broken in right were ringers for sure. Apparently so many people had issues burning oil that Dodge reverted back to the old sleeves. The 2000 engine incorporated a longer rod, much shorter lighter piston which certainly was a tighter engine, when coupled with those sleeves it made great power. That's, my friends why the 2000 MY kicked butt.
So the real question is........... do you have one of those original blocks? Was your car one of the ones sent back to Arrow Racing to be converted to the old sleeves? Remember that '99 and earlier forged pistons were larger, heavier, and would require the earlier shorter rods as well as a complete engine rebalance. You have to realize that your talking about a seventeen year old car, and I'm guessing your not the original owner. 2000 model year Vipers also have a ten QT oil pan. Hope this helps......

Yes LATAMUD is correct, if you knew what your looking at, one could tell by dropping the pan.

Great, now I want to know exactly what's in my 2000 GTS

Pretty sure this did not happen, because if you went to the Plant in 99 for a 2000 ( which I did ) the Employees all wanted to tell you about the new motor in all 2000s. They were not shy about telling you the advantages and the increase in horsepower , though not shown on paper. Only a month or two later there was a complete cease and desist order at the Plant and the motor was no longer discussed since there was a strong battle raging in SCCA with Corvette and they did not want the information out there. Viper Days had over $50,000 held back by Dodge as the Class Matrix placed points on the 2000 models over earlier models. Money was released after the Matrix changed the points and reverted back, making all Gen IIs equal. Dodge did not want GM to know anything about this car and engine. Time and perception has changed fact and reality , but don't really want to repeat this full story all over again.

The new cast pistons are better in almost every way relative to forged, except in their ability to handle higher cylinder pressures from boosted applications. The biggest reason Dodge initially went to them is their lower thermal expansion when cold, which allows tighter wall clearances, reducing blowby and startup emissions.

Bill, you ordered my car new. What's in it