The Chronicles of SneakySnake Vol III

[Jack B]

If you use a wet system, the viper is no different than any other car. Install a wide band and start rich till you hit approximately 11.0 to 11.5 between 4000 and 5500. Without any means to retard the timing, the 11.X will retard the ignition cycle enough. That is not the perfect world, but, it gets you there.

What code are you throwing? As was stated, a relearn may solve the issue.

Bought the car used with ARH Headers, Cats, Exhaust, Underpulley, Arrow PCM. Car was perfectly fine for the 4-5k miles I've owned it but recently been having an idle issue. (Funny enough started around the sametime my A/C Compressor needed to be replaced and has been) I've been told to maybe send it out for recalibration. Maybe I need a throttle relearn as we've checked for vacuum leaks and can't find anything. My belt just began squealing a few days ago. It's a slight issue where the rpm stumbles 50-100rpm and will throw a code due to it.

I'd love to stay arrow, but with my hellcat I can drive out another 150rwhp for around 2-3k. Any engine power adders for the Gen V after bolt ons are 20k+, so to be able to squeeze another 100-150rwhp out of the viper I'd be happy. Unfortunately not much documentation of nitrous shots around here for Gen V's and the arrow controller included. Could always go 50-100-150 and watch AFR's on the testing and dyno.

[kriskyk]

If you use a wet system, the viper is no different than any other car. Install a wide band and start rich till you hit approximately 11.0 to 11.5 between 4000 and 5500. Without any means to retard the timing, the 11.X will retard the ignition cycle enough. That is not the perfect world, but, it gets you there.

What code are you throwing? As was stated, a relearn may solve the issue.

Any thoughts on far one could push a wet direct injection system before the stock ecu timing becomes a limiting factor?

[Jack B]

Any thoughts on far one could push a wet direct injection system before the stock ecu timing becomes a limiting factor?

G5 is an enigma, the salvation is, the stock pcm pulls a lot of timing near stock peak torque, however, the torque curve shifts down with the nos. A wideband and plug reading are the route. Early on, a G5 was running a 200 shot with the stock pcm. Let's give the the thread back to Alex.

[cubeman]

Giving thread back to Alex

[IHOP]

I wish it were that easy. Yes we measure the Cam bores, and use the same exact measurement equipment that Dick uses at Arrow. Everything was with in spec. Sadly it is what it is, we put a ton of effort into mitigating that risk as those are the only types of failures we’ve seen out of our H/C Packages. 87 built and running with 3 cam shaft seizures among those builds.

Having to pay for and eat the cost of a rebuild to honor our warranty isn’t fun lol, for me or the customer so we take our time going over them.

Andy

Andy what is the warranty you guys offer with the stage 2 H/C Package?

[slowhatch]

Bought the car used with ARH Headers, Cats, Exhaust, Underpulley, Arrow PCM. Car was perfectly fine for the 4-5k miles I've owned it but recently been having an idle issue. (Funny enough started around the sametime my A/C Compressor needed to be replaced and has been) I've been told to maybe send it out for recalibration. Maybe I need a throttle relearn as we've checked for vacuum leaks and can't find anything. My belt just began squealing a few days ago. It's a slight issue where the rpm stumbles 50-100rpm and will throw a code due to it.

My experience is when "random" issues start to occur after installs, chances are they aren't random. I would start by looking at what was touched/removed during the install. Sometimes silly things like air box couplers that aren't seated, bumped vacuum hoses, etc can cause a lot of silly issues. Your idle hunting may be a result of not performing an idle re-learn, which to my knowledge is done while the car is idling with the highest accessory loads present. Lights, AC on, defroster. The ECU is will move the idle speed around until it is satisfied with the alternator output relative to load.

A good Viper tech should be able to sort you out, hope you get it resolved.

[slowhatch]

Sorry to hear about your problems. I admire your perseverance to get it right but that's the mindset of a real gear head ....IMO

I noticed that in post# 404 that the slicks you were using had the same tire "tread" configuration as R7s or A7s. Were you using a road race slick? You said you have done some tracking so you would know how slippery road race tires are until you take some warm up laps to build up heat and make them stick, not to mention how much stiffer the sidewall is till they are warmed up.
What tire pressure were you running?
Do you think these issues may have affected your clutch issues?

I was not on a road race slick, I was on a Hoosier drag radial. They do appear similar but are miles apart in sidewall construction and compound. I usually start at 19psi cold, and am about 21psi hot after the burnout. As far affecting my clutch issues, yes they sure did, in the sense that their grip far outstrips the clutch's clamping capacity

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires...171226183358:s

I am in the middle of building a very similar gen4 engine but will use HP to disable the VVT and use a standard cut (non VVT) cam. I am looking forward to it because I will have the ability to adjust the ECU to get the most out of the standard cut custom cam to work the best with MY engine.. Not a generic reprogramed ECU without the ability to make changes. (Fuel, timing etc.) As we all know, all Viper engines run different and have different strong and weak points. A generic pre-programmed ECU won't be able to be adjusted accordingly to compensate for weak points and strong points of each particular modified engine.

Keith Prociuk from HP explained the process to some tuner friends of mine at PRI earlier this month... He also
explained the other HP/ECU adjustments needed to be made to make this work.

I think we have a fundamental difference in opinion of what constitutes a "generic ECU/tune". I look at hptuners (beta) as the band-aid approach, not the "custom" one. Arrow as an entity is the only current aftermarket source that has access to the entire suite of oem parameters, period. You want their level of access? Stand-alone is the only option. Hptuners gets a figurative peek into the sprawling web of the factory ecu, with an ability to press a few buttons here and there (which are connected to, and affect other parameters, which it cant touch). Thus come the band-aids and workarounds to accomplish things that tuners really want to do--which is where I take issue with the approach. If you doubt this, ask anyone with a heads/cam or bolt-on setup tuned with HPtuners how happy they are with their throttle response.

I hear this over and over again from people on social media; "Man it sucks that we can't mess with the arrow tune and squeeze more power", "Hey brosiff, I squeezed another 20hp out of my bolt on car with this custom HP tuners tune, why dont you switch, etc". Of course they did, there is no question that someone who wants to push for a more aggressive timing curve and back off the oem safeguards on knock control, timing, fueling, etc their specific setup will be rewarded with more power. But to what end? That hptune works for Dom who lives his life a quarter mile at time, but what about Billy, who's a track rat spending 30 minutes at a time at redline, or Johnny, a Colorado native who beats on his car at 7000ft elevation, or Amir, who tracks his car in Kuwait with 115* ambient temps, or Blaine in California who doesn't have access to anything past 91 octane but also wants to racecar? Get my drift? Comparing Arrow vs a "custom tune" is apples to oranges, as they don't support the same usage cases and needs from their customers. Sometime I akin this constant hptuners vs arrow back-n-forth to the age old "locked down" Apple vs "free as a bird" Android debate. Does Apple let you mess with its source code? No. Because they have no reason to, just like Arrow, their firmware supports ONE hardware end-product (in this case, Arrow's own HC setup, or intake/exhaust cars), no variations. To provide a warranty, provide the same experience for user x as user y, ease troubleshooting, and protect their R&D investment, the door gets locked and the key stored. All in all, the Gen 5 Viper community should be glad we have any options at all, its all recent developments really.

And no worries on the thread "sidetrack", its all good discussion. All the best on your build

[slowhatch]

Andy what is the warranty you guys offer with the stage 2 H/C Package?

1 year, 12,000 miles.

[IHOP]

1 year, 12,000 miles.

That's pretty damn good. Slowhatch your car is beautiful!

[TooBlue]

[QUOTE=slowhatch;331574]I was not on a road race slick, I was on a Hoosier drag radial. They do appear similar but are miles apart in sidewall construction and compound. I usually start at 19psi cold, and am about 21psi hot after the burnout. As far affecting my clutch issues, yes they sure did, in the sense that their grip far outstrips the clutch's clamping capacity

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires...171226183358:s



Gotcha on the tires. The shadow from the car looked like they might be R7s. I have witnessed several people use RR tires and wonder why they can't hook.

My reference to "generic tune" is that all the Arrow, VE or Woodhouse H/C tunes are precaliberated with the same tune regardless of the "personality" of the individual car. This was not meant to be derogatory just stating a fact

I think we have a fundamental difference in opinion of what constitutes a "generic ECU/tune". I look at hptuners (beta) as the band-aid approach, not the "custom" one. Arrow as an entity is the only current aftermarket source that has access to the entire suite of oem parameters, period. You want their level of access? Stand-alone is the only option. Hptuners gets a figurative peek into the sprawling web of the factory ecu, with an ability to press a few buttons here and there (which are connected to, and affect other parameters, which it cant touch).
Thus come the band-aids and workarounds to accomplish things that tuners really want to do--which is where I take issue with the approach. If you doubt this, ask anyone with a heads/cam or bolt-on setup tuned with HPtuners how happy they are with their throttle response.

I understand your mindset on HP. I was one of the first to put HP on my dedicated track car. I was very disappointed and disgusted with HP for the same reasons you mentioned above. That's why I removed the HP ECU and went back to my Arrow flashed ECU. I was also able to gain some HP with different tweaks as well with the Arrow ECU. The car ran great on track.

One of my questions would be the example of drivers that use their cars for different reasons, different geographical locations and driving style.. Your HP tune can be calibrated to better accommodate your type of driving as minor as it may be. Just depends how good your tuner is and what the car is being used for. Your examples of different driving styles is precisely my point. I messed with the knock control and timing. I thought the gamble to gain the additional power by changing these parameters wasn't worth the risk compared to the danger of the somewhat modest gains.
I hated my HP tuner when it was first installed for the reasons you stated below. Especially throttle response.

I hear this over and over again from people on social media; "Man it sucks that we can't mess with the arrow tune and squeeze more power", "Hey brosiff, I squeezed another 20hp out of my bolt on car with this custom HP tuners tune, why dont you switch, etc". Of course they did, there is no question that someone who wants to push for a more aggressive timing curve and back off the oem safeguards on knock control, timing, fueling, etc their specific setup will be rewarded with more power. But to what end? That hptune works for Dom who lives his life a quarter mile at time, but what about Billy, who's a track rat spending 30 minutes at a time at redline, or Johnny, a Colorado native who beats on his car at 7000ft elevation, or Amir, who tracks his car in Kuwait with 115* ambient temps, or Blaine in California who doesn't have access to anything past 91 octane but also wants to racecar? Get my drift? Comparing Arrow vs a "custom tune" is apples to oranges, as they don't support the same usage cases and needs from their customers. Sometime I akin this constant hptuners vs arrow back-n-forth to the age old "locked down" Apple vs "free as a bird" Android debate. Does Apple let you mess with its source code? No. Because they have no reason to, just like Arrow, their firmware supports ONE hardware end-product (in this case, Arrow's own HC setup, or intake/exhaust cars), no variations. To provide a warranty, provide the same experience for user x as user y, ease troubleshooting, and protect their R&D investment, the door gets locked and the key stored. All in all, the Gen 5 Viper community should be glad we have any options at all, its all recent developments really.

However, after listening to the founder and owner of HP tuners (that did race a badass GEN 4 Viper used for testing) tell us about this development that we can now pull the VVT cam and install a "standard", custom cut, NON VVT cam without spending the thousand$ and gain the same amount of additional power, every one in our group was all ears. There are a few other HP ECU adjustments that need to be made as well to make this work. The idea of a little more control over the ECU makes this even more interesting.

Keith said there are several cars running this HP non VVT cam set up already. There is obviously more to this and more info to be shared but not on some one else's thread

The engine is being built as I write this with the new cam set up. I do want to add that the engine is not stock. It is an all forged, balanced and blueprinted bottom half using 10.5:1 Arrow Drag pack pistons and rods. The heads have been ported by Toddy with M'M big tube headers (no cats). I am also using a Gen 5 Intake.
There is obviously more to this build

Again,There is obviously more to this build but not on some one els'e thread...I think I have been enough of a distraction from the topic of this thread and look forward to see how this build turns out for the OP. I will write my own thread on my project as to not take away from the tireless efforts of the OP and VE to get this build dialed in.

I promise not to do it again....

And no worries on the thread "sidetrack", its all good discussion. All the best on your build

[TT32VGT]

good on them for standing behind the work and helping out.. glad to hear you got your car back..

scary that 3/87 has had the same problem..

[slowhatch]

I was not on a road race slick, I was on a Hoosier drag radial. They do appear similar but are miles apart in sidewall construction and compound. I usually start at 19psi cold, and am about 21psi hot after the burnout. As far affecting my clutch issues, yes they sure did, in the sense that their grip far outstrips the clutch's clamping capacity

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires...171226183358:s



Gotcha on the tires. The shadow from the car looked like they might be R7s. I have witnessed several people use RR tires and wonder why they can't hook.

My reference to "generic tune" is that all the Arrow, VE or Woodhouse H/C tunes are precaliberated with the same tune regardless of the "personality" of the individual car. This was not meant to be derogatory just stating a fact

I think we have a fundamental difference in opinion of what constitutes a "generic ECU/tune". I look at hptuners (beta) as the band-aid approach, not the "custom" one. Arrow as an entity is the only current aftermarket source that has access to the entire suite of oem parameters, period. You want their level of access? Stand-alone is the only option. Hptuners gets a figurative peek into the sprawling web of the factory ecu, with an ability to press a few buttons here and there (which are connected to, and affect other parameters, which it cant touch).
Thus come the band-aids and workarounds to accomplish things that tuners really want to do--which is where I take issue with the approach. If you doubt this, ask anyone with a heads/cam or bolt-on setup tuned with HPtuners how happy they are with their throttle response.

I understand your mindset on HP. I was one of the first to put HP on my dedicated track car. I was very disappointed and disgusted with HP for the same reasons you mentioned above. That's why I removed the HP ECU and went back to my Arrow flashed ECU. I was also able to gain some HP with different tweaks as well with the Arrow ECU. The car ran great on track.

One of my questions would be the example of drivers that use their cars for different reasons, different geographical locations and driving style.. Your HP tune can be calibrated to better accommodate your type of driving as minor as it may be. Just depends how good your tuner is and what the car is being used for. Your examples of different driving styles is precisely my point. I messed with the knock control and timing. I thought the gamble to gain the additional power by changing these parameters wasn't worth the risk compared to the danger of the somewhat modest gains.
I hated my HP tuner when it was first installed for the reasons you stated below. Especially throttle response.

I hear this over and over again from people on social media; "Man it sucks that we can't mess with the arrow tune and squeeze more power", "Hey brosiff, I squeezed another 20hp out of my bolt on car with this custom HP tuners tune, why dont you switch, etc". Of course they did, there is no question that someone who wants to push for a more aggressive timing curve and back off the oem safeguards on knock control, timing, fueling, etc their specific setup will be rewarded with more power. But to what end? That hptune works for Dom who lives his life a quarter mile at time, but what about Billy, who's a track rat spending 30 minutes at a time at redline, or Johnny, a Colorado native who beats on his car at 7000ft elevation, or Amir, who tracks his car in Kuwait with 115* ambient temps, or Blaine in California who doesn't have access to anything past 91 octane but also wants to racecar? Get my drift? Comparing Arrow vs a "custom tune" is apples to oranges, as they don't support the same usage cases and needs from their customers. Sometime I akin this constant hptuners vs arrow back-n-forth to the age old "locked down" Apple vs "free as a bird" Android debate. Does Apple let you mess with its source code? No. Because they have no reason to, just like Arrow, their firmware supports ONE hardware end-product (in this case, Arrow's own HC setup, or intake/exhaust cars), no variations. To provide a warranty, provide the same experience for user x as user y, ease troubleshooting, and protect their R&D investment, the door gets locked and the key stored. All in all, the Gen 5 Viper community should be glad we have any options at all, its all recent developments really.

However, after listening to the founder and owner of HP tuners (that did race a badass GEN 4 Viper used for testing) tell us about this development that we can now pull the VVT cam and install a "standard", custom cut, NON VVT cam without spending the thousand$ and gain the same amount of additional power, every one in our group was all ears. There are a few other HP ECU adjustments that need to be made as well to make this work. The idea of a little more control over the ECU makes this even more interesting.

Keith said there are several cars running this HP non VVT cam set up already. There is obviously more to this and more info to be shared but not on some one else's thread

The engine is being built as I write this with the new cam set up. I do want to add that the engine is not stock. It is an all forged, balanced and blueprinted bottom half using 10.5:1 Arrow Drag pack pistons and rods. The heads have been ported by Toddy with M'M big tube headers (no cats). I am also using a Gen 5 Intake.
There is obviously more to this build

Again,There is obviously more to this build but not on some one els'e thread...I think I have been enough of a distraction from the topic of this thread and look forward to see how this build turns out for the OP. I will write my own thread on my project as to not take away from the tireless efforts of the OP and VE to get this build dialed in.

I promise not to do it again....

I type like I speak, sarcasm and all, sometimes it doesn't translate well over the monitor--I did not take offense to anything you said! I welcome the discussion.

Keep us updated on your motor build, that sounds like it will be WICKED!

[IHOP]

I was not on a road race slick, I was on a Hoosier drag radial. They do appear similar but are miles apart in sidewall construction and compound. I usually start at 19psi cold, and am about 21psi hot after the burnout. As far affecting my clutch issues, yes they sure did, in the sense that their grip far outstrips the clutch's clamping capacity

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires...171226183358:s





I think we have a fundamental difference in opinion of what constitutes a "generic ECU/tune". I look at hptuners (beta) as the band-aid approach, not the "custom" one. Arrow as an entity is the only current aftermarket source that has access to the entire suite of oem parameters, period. You want their level of access? Stand-alone is the only option. Hptuners gets a figurative peek into the sprawling web of the factory ecu, with an ability to press a few buttons here and there (which are connected to, and affect other parameters, which it cant touch). Thus come the band-aids and workarounds to accomplish things that tuners really want to do--which is where I take issue with the approach. If you doubt this, ask anyone with a heads/cam or bolt-on setup tuned with HPtuners how happy they are with their throttle response.

I hear this over and over again from people on social media; "Man it sucks that we can't mess with the arrow tune and squeeze more power", "Hey brosiff, I squeezed another 20hp out of my bolt on car with this custom HP tuners tune, why dont you switch, etc". Of course they did, there is no question that someone who wants to push for a more aggressive timing curve and back off the oem safeguards on knock control, timing, fueling, etc their specific setup will be rewarded with more power. But to what end? That hptune works for Dom who lives his life a quarter mile at time, but what about Billy, who's a track rat spending 30 minutes at a time at redline, or Johnny, a Colorado native who beats on his car at 7000ft elevation, or Amir, who tracks his car in Kuwait with 115* ambient temps, or Blaine in California who doesn't have access to anything past 91 octane but also wants to racecar? Get my drift? Comparing Arrow vs a "custom tune" is apples to oranges, as they don't support the same usage cases and needs from their customers. Sometime I akin this constant hptuners vs arrow back-n-forth to the age old "locked down" Apple vs "free as a bird" Android debate. Does Apple let you mess with its source code? No. Because they have no reason to, just like Arrow, their firmware supports ONE hardware end-product (in this case, Arrow's own HC setup, or intake/exhaust cars), no variations. To provide a warranty, provide the same experience for user x as user y, ease troubleshooting, and protect their R&D investment, the door gets locked and the key stored. All in all, the Gen 5 Viper community should be glad we have any options at all, its all recent developments really.

And no worries on the thread "sidetrack", its all good discussion. All the best on your build

Very good points and info!

[ViperDC]

what wheels are you running with the DRs?

[slowhatch]

what wheels are you running with the DRs?

They were OZ Challenge HLTs, 18x13.

[FLATOUT]

good on them for standing behind the work and helping out.. glad to hear you got your car back..

scary that 3/87 has had the same problem..

Although that is an exceptionally low failure rate, it's still part of the performance business that no shop likes to discuss. It's all about taking care of the customer even when it's something that is seamingly even out of our control. As a business I budget for it in the off case that it happens.

[slowhatch]

Scored a set of TA 2.0 extensions from Santa this year so I was anxious to get them mounted. One thing I don't like about the oem extensions was that they are just as-molded plastic in finish, and look a bit off up against the nice carbon splitter bodies. So i decided to wrap them to get some texture on them--I figured it'd look hit or miss, but was willing to give it a shot. There were 2 real options for gloss carbon wrap material, one 3M and the other some no-name brand. The no name brand looks exceptional, very glossy, hard to tell apart from the real deal with a glance, but I'd heard from installers that it's thin, and would get destroyed easily on a high traffic area (read: Front end). So I decided to go with a thicker, proven material, the 3M-DINOC. Its their "gloss carbon", but the gloss doesn't come close to matching the oem cleared fiber.



Disassembly of the oem splitters is painless with a safety torx bit and some elbow grease.








Mocking up the new extensions before prepping for wrap. Looks good




Other side removed;



Molded plastic has a poor surface finish and wont bond well with the 3M, so we decided to sand the splitters;




Sanded and cleaned, a small jig was made to bolt the splitters into. This allows for a nice stable surface to wrap and stretch properly over the edges.






Finished product, not too shabby;

[slowhatch]

Installed;






Overall, I should of sprayed some clear over the 3M to add more gloss, but I was impatient and just bolted them on. Regardless, I really like how it came out, makes the front end more aggressive.

[Murpowa]

Looks great, nice touch!

[slowhatch]

Also had the car dyno'd again after putting a few miles on it.

Was very happy with the delta, and it corroborates what the seat of the pants feel is--that there is TONS more power on the top end now. Dyno room conditions were within 5* ambient of the previous bolt-on run, and numbers are SAE, per usual. Costco's finest pump 93 fuel .








Look at the way the power keeps on after 6k relative to the stock cam;

[Magzx12r]

Nice numbers. Is that with the Heads/Cam kit and full exhaust only or do you have other mods.

[slowhatch]

Nice numbers. Is that with the Heads/Cam kit and full exhaust only or do you have other mods.

Outside of exhaust, I have a DSE heatshield and catch can setup, and an IPSCO underdrive pulley.

[bassplayrr]

Looks great! Where/who’s a good source for those 2.0 extensions? I’d love to add them to my 1.0.

[Jack B]

That rear tie down on the dyno solves a lot of issues. Your car turned out very nice, very few cars have both the power and the looks.

[slowhatch]

Looks great! Where/who’s a good source for those 2.0 extensions? I’d love to add them to my 1.0.

ARD motorsports sells them for less than 200 bucks.

That rear tie down on the dyno solves a lot of issues. Your car turned out very nice, very few cars have both the power and the looks.

Thanks Jack, excited to see your progress with the 9.0L, that kit is constantly on my mind