The Future Value Analysis for Viper

[Scott_in_fl]

Every year same story, big HP motors are done for. They're going away....this is it....... better grab one now. And then here comes a Hellcat or Demon to prove them wrong. High performance is never going away, it may just be in a different form. And there will be a bazillion leftover manual Vettes, Mustangs and Vipers to fill the void now and ten years from now.

Jon, you're missing the point. It's not about big HP motors. Vintage Pcars (and the slew of others that I identified) are not skyrocketing in value because of their HP. I also stated that future cars will be faster and have higher performance.

[ViperSmith]

Jon, you're missing the point. It's not about big HP motors. Vintage Pcars (and the slew of others that I identified) are not skyrocketing in value because of their HP. I also stated that future cars will be faster and have higher performance.

Trying to predict that collector market is hilarious

[BJG32]

Every year same story, big HP motors are done for. They're going away....this is it....... better grab one now. And then here comes a Hellcat or Demon to prove them wrong. High performance is never going away, it may just be in a different form. And there will be a bazillion leftover manual Vettes, Mustangs and Vipers to fill the void now and ten years from now.

Ford GT has a turbo V6 completely out of place on that car. NSX and 918 are hybrids. Ferrari just announced their last NA car.

The signs truly are pointing to the end.

Corvette, Hellcat and demon are not NA btw.

[Propsail]

The values on Vipers will go up, and will only go up... after I've sold my car.

Best post ever

[ViperSmith]

Ford GT has a turbo V6 completely out of place on that car. NSX and 918 are hybrids. Ferrari just announced their last NA car.

The signs truly are pointing to the end.

Corvette, Hellcat and demon are not NA btw.

The bet is that people who are in their 30's now who obsessed over the Viper when it came out will be willing to pay big bucks in 30 years when they are going through a late life crisis.

At that time who knows if we'll even be able to drive these vehicles by then

There are so many options out there now for high performance cars that it is hard to imagine younger generations will 1) care about performance cars 2) give a shit about manuals

[Scott_in_fl]

Trying to predict that collector market is hilarious

I've given you some ideas to ponder about why this car should increase in value over the next 10-20 years. Why don't you contribute something meaningful to the conversation by giving us the opposing view (if you are so inclined)? And, then, let's discuss those points.

[Rare Snake]

These posts are always fun to read.

I really think if any of them get a big price jump for collectability, it will be the Gen 1 cars. They deserve it, they are the ones that started it all, and it pains me to see how pathetically cheap these cars are selling for, my own included. I just hope they don't come up too much... because that loss will hurt even more lol.

The one thing I know for sure is that my car is not going to be worth anything if they really do take off, which I find unlikely. I didn't buy it as a collector, or because it was going to help me retire some day. I bought it because there was no other car on the market that I would rather spend my money on, and because my heart does a flip every time I get to see it or drive it. It's a 1 of 1 before that was even a thing, but that won't mean much either. It will have mileage that will make buyers cringe and it will be covered top to bottom in rock chips and road rash that each have a story and can only be earned by enjoying some real world seat time.

But if you're right OP, that would be very cool to see.

Dason

[ViperSmith]

I've given you some ideas to ponder about why this car should increase in value over the next 10-20 years. Why don't you contribute something meaningful to the conversation by giving us the opposing view (if you are so inclined)? And, then, let's discuss those points.

I have. Enjoy it now because who cares what the future holds. My time preference was today for enjoyment not that it may double in value in 20 years.

Trying to game the collector market is an exercise in futility.

[Bruce H.]

I predict a large over-supply of low mileage Vipers that buyers thought would become highly collectible if they basically didn't drive them. What the value will be I don't know, but I'm sure demand for these will depend on the desirability of future high performance cars, and whether there's enough buyers who care enough about the more analogue models enough to shell out large sums for an older Dodge. Affluent boomers have fueled the market for the older muscle cars they grew up with but I don't see that with their children's generation much at all.

If FCA taps their global resources they might produce a thoroughly modern Gen VI before long, go set a bunch of new records, or beat existing Viper records, and that would surely affect the used Gen V market. I'm a boomer and a track rat that has bought performance cars going back decades but the ones in my future will likely use more technology to improve the overall ownership and driving experience. My son loves cars too and I can't see him coveting the old stuff, analogue or not.

Younger generations are generally far more concerned with environmental issues than we ever were and I can see "green" performance cars being the most appealing to these future high-end buyers. The romantic appeal of the analogue driver's car may be mostly disappearing along with the manual transmission. That's a sad reality, but at least for now we have a place to gather with like-minded enthusiasts!

Bruce

[aspman]

I fear the generation of snowflakes coming along now will be too scared of the viper and wont have popped their mama's titty out of their mouths to drive one.

[ViperJon]

Well said and I agree Bruce. There will be a glut of Vipers available for a long time. And comparing the vast worldwide pool of Porsche enthusiasts to the razor thin pool of niche Viper enthusiasts is not even in the same conversation. Not nearly enough to outrun supply and that has to happen for a car to significantly appreciate.

[Coloviper]

I realized recently I really don't like turbocharged engines. Honestly they sound like shit compared to N/A. I think supercharged engines sound decent because of the whine (guess mostly Roots/twin screw?) but N/A still takes the cake. There's literally not 1 new car with a turbocharger that I can say I like the engine note of. Not to mention that the turbo comes in handy mostly when driving the EPA cycle, in real world driving if you drive it hard it uses just as much fuel as a larger engine.

I honestly do think in 20-30 years it will be mostly electric and/or self driving cars. 20-30 years is a lot of progress for electronics, just think of personal computers and how far they've come along. The hold up now isn't car technology, it's the electronic and battery related items. Couple that with the fact that younger generations don't really care about driving and more about gadgets and yeah...to me the future isn't that bright as a car enthusiast.

I thought the same thing and especially anything under 8-cylinders but I test drove a Alfa Romeo Guilia very recently and have been eyeing a new Stelvio to replace my 06' Cayenne Turbo S when that Stelvio comes out and all I can tell you was I was blown away with the V6-TT in that Alfa Romeo. It sounded frickin' amazing and at over 500HP, I could hear that all day long. Wow and just wow! Was not prepared for how that pulled me in.

[SnakeWatching]

I like charts when predicting future prices. Hagerty has this on a 1996 GTS:

1996-GTS-value-chart.jpg

[ViperSRT]

Who cares. They will only be pried from my fingers after I am cold and gone. Value be damned.

[Policy Limits]

Honestly even if I could get 7 figs 1/4 century from now it would be hard to let this one go. Love the stance on this thing. The wing is massive. The aero, the vents, the curves. So much fun to drive. ..and just to look at. Hope I keep it. At only 41 years old time is on my side to realize a profit if it takes time and if I decide to flip it. I've had some cool toys. This one is way up there.

[Track Pack]

Nice post Scott

[Larryskillzs]

I have kids aka snowflakes that come up to me and tell me the Viper is their dream car.

Kids and their love affair with sport cars might not be as crazy as it used to be, but millions of kids still dream about having a Viper in their garage.

All of this talk really makes me want an ACR. It will be worth it.

[stradman]

The bet is that people who are in their 30's now who obsessed over the Viper when it came out will be willing to pay big bucks in 30 years when they are going through a late life crisis.

At that time who knows if we'll even be able to drive these vehicles by then

There are so many options out there now for high performance cars that it is hard to imagine younger generations will 1) care about performance cars 2) give a shit about manuals

Kind of agree with this. Lets face it, in the future if the younger generation-who remember won't have much experience of manual cars/heel and toeing etc- are given a choice of which car they should jump into- a flappy paddle easy to go round fast car or waste time learning how to drive a manual with all its idiosyncrasies- I kinda know which one it will be and it won't be the Viper I'm afraid. This argument harks back to the "when I was a lad we had real cars, no syncromesh, no fuel injection, no disk brakes- cars for proper men!". Now I personally don't like driving those type of cars myself so you can see where my argument is coming from....

[Policy Limits]

Definitely don't agree. Last V10 with a stick: matters. Last production car with side pipes, largest naturally aspirated engine in the world, largest tires of any production car in the world, broke 13 major track records in its time, all matters. Hand built low production super car: matters. Final numbered special edition: matters.

Just look at values of gated F430, 6.0 Diablo, Manual Ford GT, gated lp640, etc. The Viper is going out on top with the ACR extreme. It's the most barely street legal race car in the market that money can buy. It matters. Huge collectible component to these. I've been considering buying a second one.

[Scott_in_fl]

I predict a large over-supply of low mileage Vipers that buyers thought would become highly collectible if they basically didn't drive them. What the value will be I don't know, but I'm sure demand for these will depend on the desirability of future high performance cars, and whether there's enough buyers who care enough about the more analogue models enough to shell out large sums for an older Dodge. Affluent boomers have fueled the market for the older muscle cars they grew up with but I don't see that with their children's generation much at all.

If FCA taps their global resources they might produce a thoroughly modern Gen VI before long, go set a bunch of new records, or beat existing Viper records, and that would surely affect the used Gen V market. I'm a boomer and a track rat that has bought performance cars going back decades but the ones in my future will likely use more technology to improve the overall ownership and driving experience. My son loves cars too and I can't see him coveting the old stuff, analogue or not.

Younger generations are generally far more concerned with environmental issues than we ever were and I can see "green" performance cars being the most appealing to these future high-end buyers. The romantic appeal of the analogue driver's car may be mostly disappearing along with the manual transmission. That's a sad reality, but at least for now we have a place to gather with like-minded enthusiasts!

Bruce

Bruce, excellent points. A changing automotive buyer is definitely a large risk to future valuations. But, at least Porsche is keen on trying to develop their forthcoming GT cars to copy the analog feel of days gone by. Look at 911R, GT3.2, GT4RS -- all specifically designed in many aspects to recreate the man/machine direct connection that made their older generations so fantastic. After all, that direct connection is what made the storied brands so successful (which translated to winning pedigrees).

As for FCA tapping global resources to produce a Gen VI, it is certainly possible (and probably likely in some form or another). But, there is no way that any current or future Alfa permutation is going to feel like the Viper we know and love. DOT requirements are becoming more stringent, not less. Cars are getting heavier (even in light of pervasive use of space age materials) because there are more computers, more batteries, more airbags, more rollover protection, more fire retardant materials, larger crumple zones, etc.

The 918 weighs 300 lbs. more than a Gen 5 Viper; the Laf weighs 100 lbs. more; the P1 weighs about the same. Those cars were developed with >$100m budgets, and are almost entirely built of exotic materials. FCA is not going there to develop a Dodge product. It might do some wanna-be car that it slaps the Viper nameplate onto, but that would be whoring out the brand. It cannot develop a world-beating car under the Dodge umbrella anytime soon.

How the rolling go cart that is the underpinnings of a current Viper managed to get this far is astonishing. But, it will never get approved that way ever again (and that is much of what makes it feel the way that it does). Any new car, even if it could be developed, is likely to feel much more like a GTR than what we know as the Viper (and no way would a new car be able to embarrass the likes of Ferrari, Lambo, McLaren ever again -- they are all on their game, have experience developing the "digital" car by now, and are advancing their technology quickly. For FCA to allow Dodge to jump into that pool, it would be crazy).

[Policy Limits]

There is no Gen 6 coming. It's over.

[Racingswh]

I am asking a mere 300k for my ACR-E if you or anyone you know wants to get in early and cash in on the tremendous upside to be enjoyed over the next 10 years.

Otherwise I am forced to keep it and beat the balls off it every track event I go to.

To that end the new owner not only will be making an exceptional and visionary investment but also saving a good car from a certain life of extreme operational torture. Would someone please find it in their heart to fork over the 300k to save this car?

[Policy Limits]

Muahahahahaha

[stradman]

This very recent phenomenon(only 3-4 years) of gated cars selling for more will die down. And remember it's still this generation that is buying these, not the next generation, based on the assumption or trying to second guess future values on what their current taste is at the moment. Next generation won't care as they won't know any better, nor will they have the ability or even desire to do so.
I have 4 kids- young adults and older teenagers. I have over a dozen high end classic sports cars and they simply cannot be bothered to get too excited by any of these-and their friends are the same. No, I'm convinced the interest stops with us guys and so enjoy the cars for what they are-that is what matters I think. Not what the potential value is going to be in 10 or 20 years time...

[Steve M]

I consider analog cars to mean those with naturally aspirated motors, manual transmissions, and little to no electronic aids. Think of cars that rumble and shake when you start them, that smell a bit like unburnt fuel when you stand behind them, that feel raw when you sit inside them, etc. There is no drive-by-wire, fly-by-wire, or any of that other crap. Analog cars are the pure driver's cars, offering the most direct sensation of working a car down the road, or around a track.

...

The section quoted is where you lost me. If you cut your definition of an analog car short at requiring a naturally aspirated motor and a manual transmission, then you just described a Viper, which is indeed a dying breed. As soon as you mention electronic aids, however, the Gen 5 Viper has the most electronic aids ever stuffed into this platform. Although I've never personally driven a Gen 5 (or any other Gen Viper for that matter), there are plenty of reviews from owners out there that essentially state that those aids and electronic gizmos are what made the Viper tolerable for them. I guess Dodge realized that people paying $100k+ for a car didn't want the interior that was lifted straight from a Dodge Caravan parts bin, and also wanted a car that they didn't feel like was going to kill them if they got a little carried away.

Personally, I don't consider the Gen 5 an analog car - it has drive-by-wire, ABS, traction control, stability control, hill assist, even cruise control. From all accounts, Dodge maintained that raw feeling, but an analog car it ain't. Just look at how many people on these boards bitched about not having an auto with flappy paddles as an option for the Gen 5, not to mention the other threads about wanting a high revving, overhead cam, lower displacement engine. The market is changing, and people value high tech over what I would consider to be a more blunt approach.

Will there be those that will pay top dollar for something like an ACR-E? Absolutely...there are lots of people in this world, and some of them even have money. IMO, that won't be the norm, and I think we've all seen evidence of that with the ever diminishing value of the earlier Gen Vipers, which are arguably far more analog than the Gen 5. Hell, even the used Gen 5 Viper market has taken a hit, probably only made worse by some of the more outrageously optioned GTS's that only sold after sitting for years on dealer lots. The Viper has always inspired passion, but that's never generated sales, even in the used market. I honestly don't ever see that changing.