Warranty and aftermarket PCM

[outnumbered]

With all the discussion about warranty denial because of an aftermarket PCM, has the question been asked about whether an aftermarket tune--such as HP Tuners, is detectable if the stock tune is returned to the car? From what I understand, physically swapping PCM's ultimately shows a mileage difference. However, installing a tune leaves the original PCM in tact. So with that being the case, does FCA have the ability to see that? If not, that has to be one hell of a marketing benefit to a custom tune.

[EZ 2B Green]

PCM reprogramming (& restoration) was/is detectable on C6+ Corvettes so it is possible. I would assume Dodge can detect it as well.

[7TH_SIGN]

I believe this was discussed in one of the engine failure threads.

The Arrow PCM can be detected. The HP Tuner can not as long as you remove it before visiting the dealer. This is mainly due to the fact that the Arrow requires a new PCM and thus the mileage difference between the two.

Just keep in mind that even with the HP Tuner, the PCM is recording data, rpms, engine temps, timing and so on. A dealership will be able to see you raised redline for example.

[nx91notch]

Just keep in mind that even with the HP Tuner, the PCM is recording data, rpms, engine temps, timing and so on. A dealership will be able to see you raised redline for example.

The dealer level techs won't be able to see all that with their scan tools.....to a point. Yes the PCM will grab a screencap of rpm, engine temp, etc. if a check engine light occurs. But there is no place in there that records all that sort of info that the dealer techs can access just to go snooping. And at this time dealer level techs can't see how many times it has been flashed either.

But FCA engineers have scan tools that unlock much much more than what a dealer level tech can access naturally. If they send a field agent out they do have access to deeper in the computer that shows all that. A lot of times now when FCA gets involved in a warranty claim they sometimes ask for a vehicle scan report. I have had to send them before to FCA but as to what's in them and how deep they unlock the computer IDK.

[Steve M]

The question has been asked before, but it has been a while so it is probably worth discussing again.

Can Chrysler tell if a PCM has been overwritten with HPTuners? Absolutely. For this application, HPTuners writes a custom operating system to the existing PCM. The reason this was done was to allow you to poll it for enhanced PIDs while scanning, because apparently the engineers only included a very basic set of parameters that you could pull from the OBD-2 port.

What makes the Viper unique compared to a GM platform like the Corvette is that they disabled the ability to read out the PCM through the OBD-2 port. It is unclear why this was done (probably proprietary source code), but that's why on the first write you are writing a generic Viper file, and you can adjust the parameters from there. Most other platforms allow you to pull the actual tune out of the car first before modifying anything. The end result is the same, but the process to get there is a little different.

Because of this, you can't actually put a Viper PCM back to completely stock, even if you rewrite the original, unaltered file. The custom operating system will remain, and that's how a tech will know something is up when they go to look at it with a wiTECH. I know some have tried to overwrite HPTuners with a wiTECH, but were unable to do so. I'm not sure if someone has figured out a way around that or not, but it is a known, not well documented issue.

Bottom line: any competent tech will be able to tell the PCM has been altered with HPTuners. A Chrysler engineer would most certainly be able to do so. You can't put the PCM back to completely stock, so you are just as sunk as someone that's gone the Arrow PCM route. If you want to retain your warranty without having to retain an attorney, just leave it alone.

[Voice of Reason]

It would be terrible if someone who has the Arrow PCM experienced an engine failure to also experience a catastrophic PCM short out that wouldn't allow for the mileage/state of the PCM to be read and compared against the gauge cluster.

Terrible indeed...

[wrh3]

it would be terrible if someone who has the arrow pcm experienced an engine failure to also experience a catastrophic pcm short out that wouldn't allow for the mileage/state of the pcm to be read and compared against the gauge cluster.

Terrible indeed...

[DZnutz]

It would be terrible if someone who has the Arrow PCM experienced an engine failure to also experience a catastrophic PCM short out that wouldn't allow for the mileage/state of the PCM to be read and compared against the gauge cluster.

Terrible indeed...

It would take someone with extensive electrical experience to make it look genuine

[ViperGeorge]

For those with the desire or resources I understand that a Witech I will sync the odometer with the PCM without uploading data to the Chyrsler cloud. A Witech II will upload the change. I personally don't have the skill. Just saying.

[dethred]

For those with the desire or resources I understand that a Witech I will sync the odometer with the PCM without uploading data to the Chyrsler cloud. A Witech II will upload the change. I personally don't have the skill. Just saying.

I just met an independent Viper tech that assured me if I ever had a problem with my motor under warranty, that I should send my car to him first to return it to stock, and he would match the stock PCM to the cluster mileage without any detectable evidence, and then tow it off to a different dealer. He seemed fairly confident about the lack of any evidence on the stock PCM. Thankfully I just ticked over 10k miles and it burns maybe one quart every 5k miles (with plenty of hard driving in there), so I have no worries about the motor and bearing health at this point.

[ViperGeorge]

I just met an independent Viper tech that assured me if I ever had a problem with my motor under warranty, that I should send my car to him first to return it to stock, and he would match the stock PCM to the cluster mileage without any detectable evidence, and then tow it off to a different dealer. He seemed fairly confident about the lack of any evidence on the stock PCM. Thankfully I just ticked over 10k miles and it burns maybe one quart every 5k miles (with plenty of hard driving in there), so I have no worries about the motor and bearing health at this point.

Interesting. The guy could start a business travelling the country to return modded cars to stock for those so inclined.

[BlueAdder]

It is detectable for certain.
Bottom line is that you should leave it alone. Personally, even though I enjoy car mods as everyone else, I'm not touching the Viper at all. It's got more than enough power already and I'm perfectly fine with that. That's just my opinion but why risk your warranty for something that's not all that useful?

[Arizona Vipers]

It would be terrible if someone who has the Arrow PCM experienced an engine failure to also experience a catastrophic PCM short out that wouldn't allow for the mileage/state of the PCM to be read and compared against the gauge cluster.

Terrible indeed...

[Terminator02]

It is detectable for certain.
Bottom line is that you should leave it alone. Personally, even though I enjoy car mods as everyone else, I'm not touching the Viper at all. It's got more than enough power already and I'm perfectly fine with that. That's just my opinion but why risk your warranty for something that's not all that useful?

That's your own personal bottom line. Technically the gen ll has more hp and capability than most owners will utilize. Many people value modding the car to their liking and will live with the consequences. I traded my warranty car for a non warrantied car and couldn't be happier. But that's my own personal preference.

[Taximan1]

Interesting. The guy could start a business travelling the country to return modded cars to stock for those so inclined.

NO way.. The problem is, if the PCM was ever changed. It will be in the VIN history in dealer connect.

[Dman]

You'd think. But FCA asks the dealers to take pics of the PCM and to check the mileage delta ... why wouldn't they just check the service history and see that a dealer installed one ?????