2014 car with 10k miles, using 1qt/300 miles, found to have scoring on pistons

[dhx]

I bet it will cost you over 2-3 ACR's to fight, just to lose. All big corporations have legal help on the books and they spent hundreds of hours on their legal documents concerning the wording they use in all of there literature. They will drown your legal team with hours of bullshit and before you know it, it wears you down to the point of saying, why did I do this.

Ask me how I know, been there done it. We thought we could beat the system. It Took us 5 years to pay off our lawyers with the case not even going to a jury, judge dismissed the case. We were served humble pie.

FCA will put you through the ringer. That PCM is so not worth it.

I'm sorry that you lost your case, but of course not every case is the same, and you didn't clarify who or why you were in a suit.

Here's the advantage we have: For every $1 we spend in legal fees they spend $2 to $3 on their own legal team. Corporate lawyers rack up big bills for their corporate clients. They may be ABLE to outspend us, but ultimately they won't, because it doesn't make financial sense because the cost of their own legal bills will very quickly exceed the cost of the new engine. Eventually they have to make a decision on when to call it a day and find a reasonable settlement.

- - - Updated - - -

I think a more discriptive thread title would be helpful for others with the same issue.

Something with the year and issue in the title.

2014 Recalls Complete, burns 1 qt every 300 miles - scored pistons

Am I able to change it? If I can I will gladly do so.

[Terminator02]

I bet it will cost you over 2-3 ACR's to fight, just to lose. All big corporations have legal help on the books and they spent hundreds of hours on their legal documents concerning the wording they use in all of there literature. They will drown your legal team with hours of bullshit and before you know it, it wears you down to the point of saying, why did I do this.

Ask me how I know, been there done it. We thought we could beat the system. It Took us 5 years to pay off our lawyers with the case not even going to a jury, judge dismissed the case. We were served humble pie.

FCA will put you through the ringer. That PCM is so not worth it.

strong chain logic and presumptuous reasoning. Unless you are referring to suing FCA over this very matter your juxtaposition is rather meaningless. What do you mean "we thought we could beat the system." That right there alludes to some disingenuous law suit anyway.

I have a few close friends who are highly successful litigators in Michigan and Baltimore that win huge cases against healthcare and big pharma and it's nowhere near out of the realm of possibility to win a case or will it cost 500k to do so Larry.

The question will always be opportunity costs and this poster has clearly stated he has already analyzed this from previous threads. So OP lawyer up, forget this post and update if you get anywhere. Good luck.

[dhx]

I'm going to suggest the following because I want you to win.....Just so you know I'm serious of supporting your cause you can look at past threads (I think it was the thread with Disc's car) that I even offered to put in money to help with legal fees. I don't even have a Gen 5 but FCA should step up and replace the "DEFECTIVE" motors, regardless if they have an Arrow PCM.

I'm not a lawyer, but I did use to work in an industry where I was sued multiple times for everything from people getting electrocuted to their deaths to a women claiming her husband could no longer satisfy her sexually because he used our cement mixer. If your above examples go to trial, I would think you'd have to convince the jury, not the judge. It would be so easy to destroy your case as you have it listed....can a tune damage the engine?....absolutely. Just google "bad tune ruined my motor" and you'll see tons of threads and cases of tunes that did damage a motor. I think an "expert witness" could also say that if the tune was running super rich, that washing down the cylinders with raw fuel causing excessive wear and oil to be able to go past the rings. No different than a very lean tune causing a piston to burn. So your argument that a tune cannot hurt the motor is easily defeated.

The person that developed the tune (I believe it was Dick Winkles) is no longer an FCA employee and did the tune after he left FCA. FCA had nothing to do with the Arrow tune. Would a jury believe his testimony that his tune is perfectly safe?....probably not, since it is pretty easy to find threads here where the Gen 4 Arrow tune had hick ups with throttle hang, etc. So if it can happen once, it can happen again.

Regarding the Dodge dealer, you can sue them for installing something that "may" have damaged your car. But unless FCA comes out with a specific reason as to why the controller caused your specific engine issue, you'd have a hard time winning that in front of a jury. Right now FCA isn't claiming anything, just that you voided the warranty by using an aftermarket tune. And they won't say anything else until taken to court and you're out a couple of years and $$$ to get to that point.

Your specific engine issue is a little unique that it is not a spun bearing. If it was, then I truly believe that the spun bearing issue is a defect from the factory and FCA should replace the motors even if they have a controller on them. And that issue I believe could easily be won, especially with a class action lawsuit. I am worried that if the diagnosis they gave you with oil getting past the rings may make it a little harder to call this a "defective" issue. I have heard reports that cylinders were found to be out of round. Could this cause oil consumption issues, probably. Was this a defect from the factory, maybe. But a good expert witness may be able to make a case that a defective tune dumping way to much fuel into the cylinder was a "potential" cause for this and that is all the jury would probably need to here.

I do hope you get this figured out and you win your case as the spun bearing and the excessive oil consumption is not normal and obviously some sort of defect. I don't buy that I should have to check my oil every time I fill up...that is bullshit and a jury would agree. Many people have to finance a Viper purchase....if they go legal they still have to make their payments, pay insurance, not be able to drive their car and pay for legal fees for a couple of years. Many do not have the means or the patience to do this.

I would definitely see where the other Viper owners are with a class action lawsuit....IMO a defective motor from the factory preempts anything you do after you receive the car. That is the issue you need to convince the jury of.

I do appreciate your input. I don't think it would ever get in front of a jury. It will be settled long before that. The cost of a jury trial for FCA is HUGE. There is no way they would allow that to go on. Can you see FCA spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to fight over $15k-$25k?

[swexlin]

I know that the one class action some of us were looking at went nowhere. I would suggest you contact KBViper on this forum, and not bring it into this thread. These cars have ALOT of issues, large and small. QC and build quality is less than stellar on the Gen 5. They are wonderful cars, but I won't ever be out of AAA flatbed range with my car. Period. I just don't trust it, and it does take the fun out of driving sometimes. But I'm keeping it, for now, as I wouldn't get anything for it.

Good luck to the OP, but it's going to be a tough battle.

[zee]

I know that the one class action some of us were looking at went nowhere. I would suggest you contact KBViper on this forum, and not bring it into this thread. These cars have ALOT of issues, large and small. QC and build quality is less than stellar on the Gen 5. They are wonderful cars, but I won't ever be out of AAA flatbed range with my car. Period. I just don't trust it, and it does take the fun out of driving sometimes. But I'm keeping it, for now, as I wouldn't get anything for it.

Good luck to the OP, but it's going to be a tough battle.

It's really crazy how a good amount of gen 5's are so different from eachother. I'm approaching 9500 miles and really have had no issues aside from really minor stuff not even worth mentioning. Previous owners also validated that my car was problem free during the time they owned it. I come on hear and hear horror stories, but negative things will always be talked about more than positive (not saying your post is negative by any means). Don't think I've ever had a car with so much variability in build quality...then again this is my first newer super car and not sure if other low production cars are the same? I know other manufactures have had their share of issues on their elite models.

[swexlin]

It's really crazy how a good amount of gen 5's are so different from eachother. I'm approaching 9500 miles and really have had no issues aside from really minor stuff not even worth mentioning. Previous owners also validated that my car was problem free during the time they owned it. I come on hear and hear horror stories, but negative things will always be talked about more than positive (not saying your post is negative by any means). Don't think I've ever had a car with so much variability in build quality...

I think the variability is because they are mostly hand built. Different people, who may be hung over, sick, mad, or otherwise distracted. All it takes is something not fitted, tightened or reviewed correctly. This is NOT a knock against the good people at CAAP. However, they are human, and humans make mistakes. I know I do, if I'm not feeling well. In my case, it's a bad input on a spreadsheet. Someone installing an engine - well, you see. My Ram, on the other hand, now has 10,000 miles in less than 10 months - just about the mileage on my Viper (11,450), which is now a 3 year old car. The Ram has been perfect, not a squeak, rattle, oil leak, bad diff, window regulator, etc problem. With the same amount a driving, and, I actually drive the Ram way harder than the Viper. I sure don't baby it. It's not garaged, sits outside 24-7 in temps in the winter that have been in single digits, and driven in poor conditions. Not a hiccup.

Didn't mean to get off topic, just expanding on what Zee said.

[Larryskillzs]

There's a moral ground and a legal ground. All the emotion in here is on moral ground. When a judge is done reading all of the testimony and evidence the legal ground will win, because of the PCM.

FCA will never settle this issue since they produce hundreds of thousands of vehicles. They settle 1 case concerning an aftermarket part, they will have to start settling thousands of claims.

If people in here think they would be that dumb to settle something like this, you are letting your emotions get to you a little bit too much.

[mnc2886]

I do appreciate your input. I don't think it would ever get in front of a jury. It will be settled long before that. The cost of a jury trial for FCA is HUGE. There is no way they would allow that to go on. Can you see FCA spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to fight over $15k-$25k?

The issue is they aren't fighting over $15k-$25k. They are fighting over yours, everyone's who's been denied at this point because of the Arrow PCM, and any future owner. Easily $250k. Again, I want you to win, but I'm going to be upfront so you hear all the devil's advocacy. I'm also willing to bet that FCA's lawyers are on salary. They can drag this out if they want.

[ViperJon]

Would FCA really want the true number of Gen V motor failures made public during discovery in a legal proceeding?
I would think that alone would be a huge help to the case. I'll bet its far more than we have even guessed here. And hugely embarrassing.

[swexlin]

Would FCA really want the true number of Gen V motor failures made public during discovery in a legal proceeding?
I would think that alone would be a huge help to the case. I'll bet its far more than we have even guessed here. And hugely embarrassing.

Jon, you make an excellent point.

[CarolinaViper]

The issue is they aren't fighting over $15k-$25k. They are fighting over yours, everyone's who's been denied at this point because of the Arrow PCM, and any future owner. Easily $250k. Again, I want you to win, but I'm going to be upfront so you hear all the devil's advocacy. I'm also willing to bet that FCA's lawyers are on salary. They can drag this out if they want.

Your forgetting FCA makes other vehicles beside Vipers, if they fix Vipers, they would be expected to repair all vehicles that the owner modifies. What every comes out of this, would also apply to ALL vehicles FCA and other manufactures make. Based on this I don't see any manufacture now days "settling" when the owner does a modification that controls engine performance.

[Special Ed]

I bet it will cost you over 2-3 ACR's to fight, just to lose. All big corporations have legal help on the books and they spent hundreds of hours on their legal documents concerning the wording they use in all of there literature. They will drown your legal team with hours of bullshit and before you know it, it wears you down to the point of saying, why did I do this.

Ask me how I know, been there done it. We thought we could beat the system. It Took us 5 years to pay off our lawyers with the case not even going to a jury, judge dismissed the case. We were served humble pie.

FCA will put you through the ringer. That PCM is so not worth it.

I sued Johnson and Johnson as an individual and won and they are 30 times larger than FCA. You must first have a viable case. My opinion is worth nothing, but I think all of these engine failures (and this is a failure) are the responsibility of FCA with or without the Arrow PCM.

[BAD BEAR]

Surprise...surprise here we go again. My solution...don't buy a G5 Viper. Very, very glad I didn't. Interesting that Woodhouse does their builds with G4 blocks. Wonder why?

Good luck to OP.

[Jack B]

A couple of thoughts:

1. There is no direct correlation between scored cylinder walls and and a R28 positive.

2. The cylinder walls typically are scored by lack of oil.

3. It is a stretch to go from scored cylinder walls to bearing failures.

4. The R28 probably is looking for aluminum or babbitt material, not necessarily machining debris.

R28 is not for oil consumption, it is for oil contamination. So they take a sample and send your oil sample in to check for metal in the oil. If found, you get a new engine. If not you get to drive your car with peace of mind since you have a 10 year warranty. R29 is just for older cars to update for oil pull over, not sure if they even bother checking anything. Simple design change to avoid high rpm high G pull over.

In this case, op's consumption is past the rings, likely due to the oil contamination and metal in the oil scratching up the bores. Suprised he hasnt spun a bearing yet! Then again could be a bad ring too unless multiple bores are damaged which rules out a bad ring.

[dethred]

If we contribute to a "legal fund", are we somehow able to hear any settlement/resolution even if a gag order is put in place? *wink wink*?

[zee]

Surprise...surprise here we go again. My solution...don't buy a G5 Viper. Very, very glad I didn't. Interesting that Woodhouse does their builds with G4 blocks. Wonder why?

Good luck to OP.

Or keep it stock if your worried and enjoy one of the most engaging cars ever built. You're missing out...big time.

[viperdriver5150]

Or keep it stock if your worried and enjoy one of the most engaging cars ever built. You're missing out...big time.

AND one of the most UNRELIABLE cars ever made! I love Vipers but for gods sake, you have shattering rear windows, blown motors, differential issues, paint problems (bubbling) especially with the heat from mufflers, stuck horns, window regulator issues and on and on. Then you have the anxiety of trying to have your car serviced and I emphasize the trying aspect. Most dealers treat the car like its a Dart, and I agree every car should be treated with care but for christ sake, when it costs a 100k I expect some extra care.

My 1998 and 2000 Viper did not have a single problem, NOT ONE! Absolute trouble free driving.

[7TH_SIGN]

AND one of the most UNRELIABLE cars ever made! I love Vipers but for gods sake, you have shattering rear windows, blown motors, differential issues, paint problems (bubbling) especially with the heat from mufflers, stuck horns, window regulator issues and on and on. Then you have the anxiety of trying to have your car serviced and I emphasize the trying aspect. Most dealers treat the car like its a Dart, and I agree every car should be treated with care but for christ sake, when it costs a 100k I expect some extra care.

My 1998 and 2000 Viper did not have a single problem, NOT ONE! Absolute trouble free driving.

You took my exact thoughts and feelings in this statement. I agree 110% with everything you said. I was relieved when I parted with my GEN V. Kind of wish I still had my 99 ACR. Never had an issue with that car.

[SRT_BluByU]

I know that the one class action some of us were looking at went nowhere. I would suggest you contact KBViper on this forum, and not bring it into this thread. These cars have ALOT of issues, large and small. QC and build quality is less than stellar on the Gen 5. They are wonderful cars, but I won't ever be out of AAA flatbed range with my car. Period. I just don't trust it, and it does take the fun out of driving sometimes. But I'm keeping it, for now, as I wouldn't get anything for it.

Good luck to the OP, but it's going to be a tough battle.

I drive daily drive mine and it has never left me stranded. For the most part it's been / is a great car!

[dhx]

There's a moral ground and a legal ground. All the emotion in here is on moral ground. When a judge is done reading all of the testimony and evidence the legal ground will win, because of the PCM.

FCA will never settle this issue since they produce hundreds of thousands of vehicles. They settle 1 case concerning an aftermarket part, they will have to start settling thousands of claims.

If people in here think they would be that dumb to settle something like this, you are letting your emotions get to you a little bit too much.

And guess what wins in court... moral ground. The law is often not applied as you think it would be. Ive been in court enough to see how the system works.

This case could have implications for other vipers with arrow PCM's but it doesn't necessary apply to every car. They could settle and admit that this failure wasn't due to the tune and be done with it...

The issue is they aren't fighting over $15k-$25k. They are fighting over yours, everyone's who's been denied at this point because of the Arrow PCM, and any future owner. Easily $250k. Again, I want you to win, but I'm going to be upfront so you hear all the devil's advocacy. I'm also willing to bet that FCA's lawyers are on salary. They can drag this out if they want.

How many people have been denied solely for the Arrow PCM, 2? I'm not saying that the case couldn't have an impact on other arrow tune denied customers, but I'm not sure there is $250k yet, maybe there is??

Would FCA really want the true number of Gen V motor failures made public during discovery in a legal proceeding?
I would think that alone would be a huge help to the case. I'll bet its far more than we have even guessed here. And hugely embarrassing.

Right, and mostly failed for the same reasons as this engine, and yet somehow the tune is blamed here (well, we think it will be blamed, we'll see soon)

Your forgetting FCA makes other vehicles beside Vipers, if they fix Vipers, they would be expected to repair all vehicles that the owner modifies. What every comes out of this, would also apply to ALL vehicles FCA and other manufactures make. Based on this I don't see any manufacture now days "settling" when the owner does a modification that controls engine performance.

One case doesn't set a legal precedent for every car they make. This situation isn't about "does a warranty cover damage from aftermarket parts" it's about "this part that's promoted by dodge dealers is being blamed for damage it didn't cause, and clearly this failure is common on all cars not just cars with this part"

As much as I feel for you on this situation with your motor. If you put your emotions aside and apply some basic common seance to this issue. From what I read from the 7/70 Maximum Care contract I bought for my 2013 GTS. It states that the warranty will "Not" cover "Repairs required as a result of use of other than the Vehicle manufacturer's parts during the term of the plan. That's pretty clear and TrackAire wrote what I thought as a very good post on how FCA mite be able to get that to work.
As I see it the only thing you could argue is 12 point after that one on my contract it reads. Repairs to a covered components caused by the failure of a non-covers component and/or an aftermarket installation not performed by an authorized dealer. The last part of that sentence mite sound like if the dealer installed it it should be covered. But was the dealer authorized by FCA to install the Arrow controller? If not how is the dealer going to help you with this. I'm not saying this is right on a moral level but they don't call it a lawsuit for nothing. It's about the law and not emotions or even right and wrong sometimes. It's only about the written law. So I do agree with part of what you wrote that this will not get in front of a jury. But for a different reason as I really don't think you will even get this in front of a judge. I'm sure you will find plenty of Lawyer's to take your money. But for FCA this would be about every car they ever sold so don't fool yourself into thinking that they won't fight this. Lastly it really sucks that you put yourself into this position "Having the controller installed". You most likely have a better chance of suing the dealership that installed it. If they told you that this won't void your warranty. But if that isn't in writing then it just isn't .I will add I'm no lawyer and no I don't believe the controller caused you oil problem but then my opine really doesn't mean squat. Good Luck

I don't think it's about every car ever sold, I think it's about ONE part that's being used as a tool to escape responsibility for failures the manufacturer is liable for. However, I understand your perspective and I do appreciate it.

[wrh3]

AND one of the most UNRELIABLE cars ever made! I love Vipers but for gods sake, you have shattering rear windows, blown motors, differential issues, paint problems (bubbling) especially with the heat from mufflers, stuck horns, window regulator issues and on and on. Then you have the anxiety of trying to have your car serviced and I emphasize the trying aspect. Most dealers treat the car like its a Dart, and I agree every car should be treated with care but for christ sake, when it costs a 100k I expect some extra care.

My 1998 and 2000 Viper did not have a single problem, NOT ONE! Absolute trouble free driving.

This is the FIAT Viper......not the Viper of years past.......sergio has killed my desire to own any more FCA products (and I own 2 now)......

[dethred]

AND one of the most UNRELIABLE cars ever made! I love Vipers but for gods sake, you have shattering rear windows, blown motors, differential issues, paint problems (bubbling) especially with the heat from mufflers, stuck horns, window regulator issues and on and on. Then you have the anxiety of trying to have your car serviced and I emphasize the trying aspect. Most dealers treat the car like its a Dart, and I agree every car should be treated with care but for christ sake, when it costs a 100k I expect some extra care.

My 1998 and 2000 Viper did not have a single problem, NOT ONE! Absolute trouble free driving.

Absolutely. I have told countless people exactly this. Only difference for me is I expected there to be constant problems from day one, as it's a super car. I merely expected dealerships to treat the car with respect. Instead they treat the car, and the customer, as if it's a dodge dart.

I will never ever own or recommend a Dodge product to anyone ever again. They fail from the corporate warranty fiasco down to how absolutely shitty their dealership network is. I'd go so far as to say they are the worst car company you can buy a car from in the US. On the other hand, Porsche treat everyone like they drove up with a 918 spider, give you daily calls to update you, provide you with decent loaners (not a dart for a Viper, but a Macan for 911), treat your car with kid gloves, etc.

Perfect example:

Take the Viper in for a seat creaking: "Oh, we wouldn't want to replace the seat because the leather might not match, so we're not even going to touch it".
Resolution: THREE DEALERSHIPS and a year LATER it turns out to be two bolts that needed tightening, 18 mile joy ride added onto odometer just for the hell of it.

Take the 911 in for a rattle in the door: "Here's your Cayman loaner, Sir, we'll update you by 4pm"
Resolution: "Door panel part replaced, car comes back vacuumed and washed with 3 miles to check for rattle."

[dhx]

Just for a moment, im going to take a step back and say that I do LOVE my car. It's an amazing car and their vision for the car was spot on.

[darbgnik]

Surprise...surprise here we go again. My solution...don't buy a G5 Viper. Very, very glad I didn't. Interesting that Woodhouse does their builds with G4 blocks. Wonder why?

Good luck to OP.

Hahaha, that's helpful. I guess if the law suit doesn't work out, the OP can build a time machine to make your advice useful to him.......

[dhx]

Hahaha, that's helpful. I guess if the law suit doesn't work out, the OP can build a time machine to make your advice useful to him.......

LOL, at least i got one laugh tonight

I'll post updates as soon as I have them, but due to the stress of my beloved car away form home I'm going to step back form the debate for a bit. Give me a day or two until I here what they suggest. I'm going to be pissed off if they want me to pay to reassemble the car, which I may have to do so that I can at least enjoy it while I litigate, but I'm not sure if that would cause additional damage to parts that could have been saved for a future rebuild...