2014 car with 10k miles, using 1qt/300 miles, found to have scoring on pistons

[7TH_SIGN]

Could you share a bit about the process, how you selected your attorney, the time and money spent?

Sure thing. I'll pm you.

[Dave1968]

FCA is using it as a scapegoat and its clear.

I totally agree - they know the problem is the motor. They are using the ( no modification, etc... clauses) as their Get out of Jail free card and they have every legal contractual right to do so - Unfortunately! Watch your expenses.

[dhx]

FCA is using it as a scapegoat and its clear.

I totally agree - they know the problem is the motor. They are using the ( no modification, etc... clauses) as their Get out of Jail free card and they have every legal contractual right to do so - Unfortunately! Watch your expenses.

They really don't have the contractural right though, they just haven't been challenged properly. Can you imagine the judge asking them questions in court?

Judge: So, this "tune", you say it damaged the engine?
FCA: Yes, the offending aftermarket part was directly linked to the damage
Judge: And the people who designed the engine for you made this product?
FCA: Yes, the people we trust to design the motor also blew it up
Judge: And this damage causing part was sold by.... you?
FCA: Yes, one of our Dodge dealers sold it to him
Judge: And then you installed it for him?
FCA: Yes, our dealer installed it for him also
Judge: And you don't want to take responsibility for it.... why?

[Dave1968]

https://youtu.be/G_Z3lmidmrY

[dhx]

https://youtu.be/G_Z3lmidmrY

I did get a good laugh, and it is relevant Let's see how many of those phases I get through before I give up. I've sued and been sued many times. One of those was a big company that you all know, but I can't mention, but I can tell you that I won. I haven't won every case, but I know how to hire good people and how to gain leverage with creativity. Likely, if it gets to litigation I'll have to delete all these posts, but be sure to follow up with a PM down the road.

[Dave1968]

No disrespect intended, it just popped into my head as an episode I saw and I remember it being funny. I do wish you well, and as a fellow owner I want to do what I can to help you get through this as inexpensively as you can. Ièm always looking for more power and trying to find the good in the bad. If it was me I would be thoroughly pissed, but then I would dive right in and make my motor better than it ever was. Good luck!!

[Ludington1]

A dealer is an authorized reseller, not a branch office of FCA.

[dhx]

No disrespect intended, it just popped into my head as an episode I saw and I remember it being funny. I do wish you well, and as a fellow owner I want to do what I can to help you get through this as inexpensively as you can. Ièm always looking for more power and trying to find the good in the bad. If it was me I would be thoroughly pissed, but then I would dive right in and make my motor better than it ever was. Good luck!!

No worries, it was amusing and all too real

A dealer is an authorized reseller, not a branch office of FCA.

Even 'authorized reseller' sounds pretty official

[BJG32]

They really don't have the contractural right though, they just haven't been challenged properly. Can you imagine the judge asking them questions in court?

Judge: So, this "tune", you say it damaged the engine?
FCA: Yes, the offending aftermarket part was directly linked to the damage
Judge: And the people who designed the engine for you made this product?
FCA: Yes, the people we trust to design the motor also blew it up
Judge: And this damage causing part was sold by.... you?
FCA: Yes, one of our Dodge dealers sold it to him
Judge: And then you installed it for him?
FCA: Yes, our dealer installed it for him also
Judge: And you don't want to take responsibility for it.... why?

Lol! DHX this is exactly the point ive been screaming about! I hope you do follow through on this and cost doesn't create a road block. You will win and you'll be a hero. Sorry this happened!

Dont waste your energy on this forum. Go win this....then come back and feed the nah sayers crow.

[mnc2886]

If he wins, I'm buying an arrow controller.

[Terminator02]

Put your pipe down. Arrow controller = No warranty. Might as well face the facts, if they cover this one, they have to cover EVERY single claim from headers, controller, etc, etc, etc and there is no way they will open that door. I haven't put my decat pipes and controller on for this reason; I have 22,000 kms on the car and am still on the fence about when to install them. It's important to accept this early because FCA might charge him disassembly labour, shop supplies for the work required to dig deeper into the motor. He could face thousands of dollars in costs and be nowhere closer to a claim only to have it denied and then they bill him for all the work. It's time to mitigate the costs. Any lawyer with half a brain will read the contract and step aside unless he is guaranteed to be paid by the complainant.

Still on the fence? You would have the highest mileage motor break down if you did break down after 22k. If your car isn't consuming oil the I don't think you can get anymore reassurance than what you have in front of you. Hopefully you can modulate your anxiety and choose to install those products because they are indeed great products. Anyone over 10k without excessive oil consumption or other warning signs are most likely fine.

OP, you have stated repeatedly that you have the resources and ability to assemble the right team and my only recommendation is to just take action and if you want keep us updated. people should be excited someone is willing to take on FCA. It helps every viper because if he is successful litigating, he helps every viper owner here regardless of if your car even has problems. He helps from a resale standpoint alone. Good luck op.

[Terminator02]

No worries, it was amusing and all too real



Even 'authorized reseller' sounds pretty official

The elephant in the room. You are right it does sound very official. Unfortunately some used car salesmen pushed that product on hundreds of vipers as if there were no costs/benefits of doing so and essentially really screwed the entire viper community by doing so. The truth we have found out is that the controller isn't only beneficial with no drawbacks and when used alone, the benefits are even questionable as is. The fact it completely voided the warranty, created a used market people are afraid to touch and other negative consequences is just sad. So many people have emails stating that there are no negatives to installing the controller and the warranty will be kept in tact. Resellers represent the brand and if resellers aren't properly advising customers then one can argue therein may lie a level of responsibility.

[SRT_BluByU]

The elephant in the room. You are right it does sound very official. Unfortunately some used car salesmen pushed that product on hundreds of vipers as if there were no costs/benefits of doing so and essentially really screwed the entire viper community by doing so. The truth we have found out is that the controller isn't only beneficial with no drawbacks and when used alone, the benefits are even questionable as is. The fact it completely voided the warranty, created a used market people are afraid to touch and other negative consequences is just sad. So many people have emails stating that there are no negatives to installing the controller and the warranty will be kept in tact. Resellers represent the brand and if resellers aren't properly advising customers then one can argue therein may lie a level of responsibility.

I wonder if the court would see this as a manf or seller liability.

[AZTVR]

Likely, if it gets to litigation I'll have to delete all these posts, but be sure to follow up with a PM down the road.

Just an FYI, because Google and other webcrawlers save snapshots of webpages that they open, what you think has been deleted can often be found online by anyone that knows about when and where it originally existed.

[Martin]

I hope he goes for it and/or joins a group of owners to pool resources. If it gets to litigation, it's not just FCA that will get listed on the demand letter - so will Arrow, and the dealer that installed the controller. Best to start thinking about getting those guys to pitch in on your side of the case now before they have to be the burning man for FCA (who will eventually use the tactic of blaming them and making a case for them to pay the damages).

Good luck to you - if you get a judge/jury that knows anything about engines and are aware of Magnusson Moss, you'll eventually win. Will be costly, though, and probably removed to Federal court due to the multi-state nature of it. Not a bad thing - it makes it possible for the class action to be a part of this.

[ViperGeorge]

I have sued a two major auto manufacturers with one suit (Saleen and Ford). Car had a bad vibration which the dealer could not get rid of by balancing the wheels. They replaced one front tire and one rear wheel. Still couldn't fix it. I got a lawyer, not even a very good one quite honestly, they wrote some letters and we had a deposition with the manufacturer's lawyers. They had googled me and knew that I raced. They kept trying to say I raced the Saleen but I actually never did and they had no proof I did. I had another car for that. They wanted their experts to look at the car so they flew some engineers in from Detroit along with the head of Customer Service. They were allowed to drive the car and look at it but they were not allowed any further fixes. When they came back from the drive the look on their faces told me I was going to win.

They settled. They paid my legal fees, replaced all tires, wheels, and rotors. They gave me money and they upgraded the engine supercharger with warranty (over $1000 option). Picked it up and boy was it fast! But it still had the vibration. Took it to my Viper Tech and had him balance the tires and guess what vibration was gone.

Moral of the story is you can sue a major manufacturer and win. They play the odds, if they think they will lose a suit because of the facts involved they settle. They know lawyers are expensive so what's the point of fighting a losing battle. Usually though they place a gag order on the person suing to not disclose the settlement. This prevents the settlement from being of any help to anyone else. Class action suits though become public record so they can't hide from them. Good luck to the OP but chances are when he lawyers up and wins it won't help the rest of us unless he refuses to sign the gag order that will be part of any settlement.

[1of1TA1.0]

If FCA would have just given the ability to the aftermarket to read the computer codes like most manufacturers this wouldn't be an issue for them. They decided to make the only choice for an aftermarket tune (I know about HP Tuners but this is because they figured it out, well most of it anyway) now they decide to use it as a scapegoat for a preexisting issue that is KNOWN, SMH.

[Camfab]

If he wins, I'm buying an arrow controller.

If he wins, Arrow will likely go bankrupt.

[Larryskillzs]

To those who say "your money is better spent on a rebuild" or "don't waste your money its a big company", even big companies can be held accountable. I can afford to fight them if I need to, and I will until the situation is made right, even if it's cheaper and faster to pay for a rebuild.

I bet it will cost you over 2-3 ACR's to fight, just to lose. All big corporations have legal help on the books and they spent hundreds of hours on their legal documents concerning the wording they use in all of there literature. They will drown your legal team with hours of bullshit and before you know it, it wears you down to the point of saying, why did I do this.

Ask me how I know, been there done it. We thought we could beat the system. It Took us 5 years to pay off our lawyers with the case not even going to a jury, judge dismissed the case. We were served humble pie.

FCA will put you through the ringer. That PCM is so not worth it.

[Viper Girl]

I think a more discriptive thread title would be helpful for others with the same issue.

Something with the year and issue in the title.

2014 Recalls Complete, burns 1 qt every 300 miles - scored pistons

UPDATE: Changed title of thread with OP's permission from Another engine Failure to

"2014 car with 10k miles, using 1qt/300 miles, found to have scoring on pistons"

[7TH_SIGN]

I bet it will cost you over 2-3 ACR's to fight, just to lose. All big corporations have legal help on the books and they spent hundreds of hours on their legal documents concerning the wording they use in all of there literature. They will drown your legal team with hours of bullshit and before you know it, it wears you down to the point of saying, why did I do this.

Ask me how I know, been there done it. We thought we could beat the system. It Took us 5 years to pay off our lawyers with the case not even going to a jury, judge dismissed the case. We were served humble pie.

FCA will put you through the ringer. That PCM is so not worth it.

The only thing I agree with you on is that the Arrow PCM is not worth it.

But once again I'll say it..... Lemon Law Arbitration in many states is free. It cost me $300 and I was awarded a new replacement car by Toyota.

"​Lemon law was enacted to protect consumers against manufacturer defects when they purchase or lease a new motor vehicle. This law requires manufacturers, under certain circumstances, to replace or buy back a vehicle with a defect that substantially impairs its use, value or safety, and that cannot be or has not been properly repaired or repaired in a timely manner."

Its arbitration third party, settled out of court. We are not talking civil court and thousands of dollars.

[AZTVR]

"​Lemon law was enacted to protect consumers against manufacturer defects when they purchase or lease a new motor vehicle.

But the OP has stated that he did not buy the car new, and is the second owner.

[ViperGeorge]

People seem to think that because big corporations have lots of lawyers they automatically litigate every suit. WRONG! I can't say this loudly enough, it doesn't work that way. I've worked for many major companies in very senior roles and I have been involved in law suits more often than I would like. I will tell you companies look at the probabilities of winning, the cost of litigating (which many big firms outsource to specialized litigation firms which of course are expensive), and the cost to simply settle the suit (whether they really think they are right or not). Often someone hires a lawyer and they write a demand letter to the company demanding some restitution and compensation. The lawyers look at it, discuss it with senior management, and then a call is made. No CEO will throw out $100s of thousands or more on a poor probability. They simply will settle and insist the suitor signs a non-disclosure.

GET A LAWYER and start writing letters!!! You will get results. Might not help the rest of us though.

[TrackAire]

They really don't have the contractural right though, they just haven't been challenged properly. Can you imagine the judge asking them questions in court?

Judge: So, this "tune", you say it damaged the engine?
FCA: Yes, the offending aftermarket part was directly linked to the damage
Judge: And the people who designed the engine for you made this product?
FCA: Yes, the people we trust to design the motor also blew it up
Judge: And this damage causing part was sold by.... you?
FCA: Yes, one of our Dodge dealers sold it to him
Judge: And then you installed it for him?
FCA: Yes, our dealer installed it for him also
Judge: And you don't want to take responsibility for it.... why?

I'm going to suggest the following because I want you to win.....Just so you know I'm serious of supporting your cause you can look at past threads (I think it was the thread with Disc's car) that I even offered to put in money to help with legal fees. I don't even have a Gen 5 but FCA should step up and replace the "DEFECTIVE" motors, regardless if they have an Arrow PCM.

I'm not a lawyer, but I did use to work in an industry where I was sued multiple times for everything from people getting electrocuted to their deaths to a women claiming her husband could no longer satisfy her sexually because he used our cement mixer. If your above examples go to trial, I would think you'd have to convince the jury, not the judge. It would be so easy to destroy your case as you have it listed....can a tune damage the engine?....absolutely. Just google "bad tune ruined my motor" and you'll see tons of threads and cases of tunes that did damage a motor. I think an "expert witness" could also say that if the tune was running super rich, that washing down the cylinders with raw fuel causing excessive wear and oil to be able to go past the rings. No different than a very lean tune causing a piston to burn. So your argument that a tune cannot hurt the motor is easily defeated.

The person that developed the tune (I believe it was Dick Winkles) is no longer an FCA employee and did the tune after he left FCA. FCA had nothing to do with the Arrow tune. Would a jury believe his testimony that his tune is perfectly safe?....probably not, since it is pretty easy to find threads here where the Gen 4 Arrow tune had hick ups with throttle hang, etc. So if it can happen once, it can happen again.

Regarding the Dodge dealer, you can sue them for installing something that "may" have damaged your car. But unless FCA comes out with a specific reason as to why the controller caused your specific engine issue, you'd have a hard time winning that in front of a jury. Right now FCA isn't claiming anything, just that you voided the warranty by using an aftermarket tune. And they won't say anything else until taken to court and you're out a couple of years and $$$ to get to that point.

Your specific engine issue is a little unique that it is not a spun bearing. If it was, then I truly believe that the spun bearing issue is a defect from the factory and FCA should replace the motors even if they have a controller on them. And that issue I believe could easily be won, especially with a class action lawsuit. I am worried that if the diagnosis they gave you with oil getting past the rings may make it a little harder to call this a "defective" issue. I have heard reports that cylinders were found to be out of round. Could this cause oil consumption issues, probably. Was this a defect from the factory, maybe. But a good expert witness may be able to make a case that a defective tune dumping way to much fuel into the cylinder was a "potential" cause for this and that is all the jury would probably need to here.

I do hope you get this figured out and you win your case as the spun bearing and the excessive oil consumption is not normal and obviously some sort of defect. I don't buy that I should have to check my oil every time I fill up...that is bullshit and a jury would agree. Many people have to finance a Viper purchase....if they go legal they still have to make their payments, pay insurance, not be able to drive their car and pay for legal fees for a couple of years. Many do not have the means or the patience to do this.

I would definitely see where the other Viper owners are with a class action lawsuit....IMO a defective motor from the factory preempts anything you do after you receive the car. That is the issue you need to convince the jury of.

[7TH_SIGN]

But the OP has stated that he did not buy the car new, and is the second owner.

Damn. I apologize. I missed that.