2014 car with 10k miles, using 1qt/300 miles, found to have scoring on pistons

[dethred]

Just for a moment, im going to take a step back and say that I do LOVE my car. It's an amazing car and their vision for the car was spot on.

I cannot agree more, I just wish they didn't release it, and then shit all over their customers.

[dhx]

Part of me is wondering if they actually know what the root cause is. Has anyone heard of it being isolated?

Oh and to clarify on a previous post... I think Arrow would get named in the suit also. At a minimum they need to be subpoenaed to appear, but they may have liability. May..

[dethred]

Part of me is wondering if they actually know what the root cause is. Has anyone heard of it being isolated?

Oh and to clarify on a previous post... I think Arrow would get named in the suit also. At a minimum they need to be subpoenaed to appear, but they may have liability. May..

Considering they've installed a new block washing station (yes you need to get all this info too, as that is practically admission of "guilt"), I'd say they've narrowing it down to the casting sand theory. Blocks were not being washed properly from the company that cast the blocks. Casting sand would break off into the oil and find it's way into the oil galleries for the rod bearings and score them, eventually leading to spun bearings and engine failure.

[Vprbite]

Would FCA really want the true number of Gen V motor failures made public during discovery in a legal proceeding?
I would think that alone would be a huge help to the case. I'll bet its far more than we have even guessed here. And hugely embarrassing.

I could see something like this happening. Lotus a few years ago had some problems with a battery coming loose and for many owners they either replaced the car or made them whole with the caveat of an NDA. I have a friend who had that problem, soon after he had a new lotus and even amongst friends chatting cars he honors his NDA. Let alone on forums.

Is that gonna happen here? Sounds doubtful but you never know. I do agree that the PCM makes it harder on the owner because FCA can argue that's the brains behind the whole thing and you messed with the brains, compared to a catback exhaust which wouldn't effect oil consumption/contamination.

Best of luck. Squeakey wheels do get greased so I support you in squeaking as loud as possible. You have a legitimate gripe and no reason not to make Them hear you.

[TrackAire]

LOL, at least i got one laugh tonight

I'll post updates as soon as I have them, but due to the stress of my beloved car away form home I'm going to step back form the debate for a bit. Give me a day or two until I here what they suggest. I'm going to be pissed off if they want me to pay to reassemble the car, which I may have to do so that I can at least enjoy it while I litigate, but I'm not sure if that would cause additional damage to parts that could have been saved for a future rebuild...

You may want to have them hold off assembling the motor to give you a chance to hire an automotive forensics specialist whose emphasis is motors. They can do measuring, take samples, photograph and diagnose specific issues way beyond what any Viper tech was ever taught. They may also have access to tests having to do with chemical samples showing how the oil is burned, temps, take detailed measurements, etc. All this matters when going legal. This is a specialized field that is very focused on the specific part of the vehicle in question. Any good lemon law attorney should have access to these engineer/expert witnesses.

Whenever we had an issue and somebody got hurt/killed, we would always race to hire the best "expert witness" in that specific field and put him on retainer so the other side couldn't hire them. The expert witness will testify for either side depending on whose check clears first, lol. The key was to end up with the "leader in his field" type expert as they could often sway the jury because of both their credentials and their very persuasive courtroom charm. Also, if the guy is a kick ass specialist in his field and produces a formal report explaining what the true cause was in his opinion, this can sway FCA to settle and avoid court because proof is proof. If they do settle, you will probably have to sign a non disclosure agreement and we'll never know what happens. Good luck!!

[AZTVR]

Part of me is wondering if they actually know what the root cause is. Has anyone heard of it being isolated?

Oh and to clarify on a previous post... I think Arrow would get named in the suit also. At a minimum they need to be subpoenaed to appear, but they may have liability. May..

The way that you worded your question implies that there is a singular root cause in play with the Gen V engine failures, and that the one that most people have been talking about has anything to do with your engine's failure. My feeling is that there is more than one root cause of engine failures being talked about in various threads. We don't know if your car always consumed an excessive amount of oil or not. If it always did, then it appears to fall in a different category than many others that appear to be due to some kind of debris in the oiling system. This is where the automotive forensics expert is needed rather than a line mechanic or service writer at the dealership.

There have been quite a few reports of much higher oil consumption than what the typical car guy would expect, even during the break in period. Others consume virtually no oil. This sounds more like a manufacturing or design tolerancing issue involving the cylinders or rings than it does a debris issue.

[Terminator02]

AND one of the most UNRELIABLE cars ever made! I love Vipers but for gods sake, you have shattering rear windows, blown motors, differential issues, paint problems (bubbling) especially with the heat from mufflers, stuck horns, window regulator issues and on and on. Then you have the anxiety of trying to have your car serviced and I emphasize the trying aspect. Most dealers treat the car like its a Dart, and I agree every car should be treated with care but for christ sake, when it costs a 100k I expect some extra care.

My 1998 and 2000 Viper did not have a single problem, NOT ONE! Absolute trouble free driving.

I had paint bubbling on my gen ll ACR. Had to replace clutch at 18k, harmonic balancer broke loose throwing my belt and nearly toasting my crank. Was able to get it pinned. Oh and the AC stopped working and holding a charge at 30k miles. So far not a single problem with my Gen V. It goes both ways but don't talk like the gen ll was known to be without problems. The balancer was a real issue as were the head gaskets of gen one.

[swexlin]

AND one of the most UNRELIABLE cars ever made! I love Vipers but for gods sake, you have shattering rear windows, blown motors, differential issues, paint problems (bubbling) especially with the heat from mufflers, stuck horns, window regulator issues and on and on. Then you have the anxiety of trying to have your car serviced and I emphasize the trying aspect. Most dealers treat the car like its a Dart, and I agree every car should be treated with care but for christ sake, when it costs a 100k I expect some extra care.

My 1998 and 2000 Viper did not have a single problem, NOT ONE! Absolute trouble free driving.

As much as I hate to admit, this is valid. My car has not been trouble free. Hasn't left me stranded (yet, knock wood), but there shouldn't be this many issues, with only 11,500 on the odo. PS - I owned a Turbo Dart (traded for my Ram), and in the 3 years and 35,000 miles I owned it, the ONLY issue was the passenger sun visor was replaced. That's it. And I drove that car and put it away wet. Not ONE problem, engine, drivetrain, electrical, nothing.

The problems with the Gen 5 have really taken the fun out driving. I'm keeping my car for now, as it's not worth anything anyway, and it's paid for.

[ViperJon]

And lest anyone think they issues have been solved in 2017, I know a person who has had their spanking new '17 back to the dealer TWICE for issues with less than 700 miles on the car. Granted nothing of this magnitude. Yet. Sorry fan-bois but the QC on these cars is just abysmal.

[Jack B]

The G2 also had an intake gasket recall. The 96's had cracked wheels. Then there was oil starvation, power steering fluid fires, plastic water pump impeller failures and the infamous frame recall. What it did not have were the non-owner whiners.

I had paint bubbling on my gen ll ACR. Had to replace clutch at 18k, harmonic balancer broke loose throwing my belt and nearly toasting my crank. Was able to get it pinned. Oh and the AC stopped working and holding a charge at 30k miles. So far not a single problem with my Gen V. It goes both ways but don't talk like the gen ll was known to be without problems. The balancer was a real issue as were the head gaskets of gen one.

[my bandit]

One issue I can see arising from the fight is (now correct me if I'm wrong), that the Arrow PCM increases the redline of the engine. FCA could easily fight that and say the vehicle was over-revved due to the PCM. If it was meant to be revved to that limit, they would have made that the limit from the factory. They can easily show that an over-revved engine can result in damage. Now, I'm not say that is the cause of yours but it's a legitimate fighting point. I wish you the best but as mentioned earlier, I don't see this being a fight that is worth it. For the amount you'll pay for the lawyer, you're better off either selling the car or purchasing a new engine. They will probably settle for a new engine but you'll have a gag order placed on the settlement meaning you will have done nothing for anyone else.

[Dman]

Really there's nothing for us to continue to talk about, other than folks connecting who have the issue.

Legally it's really a 1, 2 argument.

1 - that engines that don't have your mod, ex Arrow, have failed in the same way, thus removing causality related to the Arrow/mod, also reinforced via testimony from say Dick Winkles, who I'd subpoena for expert testimony, who be better than anyone FCA could produce, to explain that this is a debris caused failure. Un-modded engines with same failure, expert testimony on actual cause, done on that argument.

2 - arguing that a mod doesn't cancel your entire warranty and rather a mod only cancels warranty coverage for damage it causes. Nail these two and slam dunk, fail on either and it's lost.

We all have opinions on how 1 & 2 would pan out, but only a consumer protection atty opinion would matter, and I'd think they could answer #2 very quickly so you'd know if pursuing #1 was worth while. If you get a positive on 2, then I'd pursue 1.

[AZTVR]

to explain that this is a debris caused failure.

What indication is there that this failure is a debris related failure?

[Dman]

What indication is there that this failure is a debris related failure?

Oil blow by due to scored pistons caused by debris. Just as other engines have failed due to debris scoring bearings, and debris clogging journals. Aftermarket and insiders in sidebar discussions, all only refer to one single issue they've found, debris from dirty blocks. Whether excessive oil burning, bearing failure, oil starvation, all can be attributed to debris, from 1st production thru Jan 2016 .. so far it is the only confirmed problem. For which FCA installed the block washing station in Jan.

[The_Ruski_Driver]

Excited to hear someone is gonna fight them. Good luck OP! I'd donate to your case, let us know if you have a link!

[dhx]

Excited to hear someone is gonna fight them. Good luck OP! I'd donate to your case, let us know if you have a link!

I appreciate the support, I don't think it would be appropriate yet, but thank you!

[GTS21]

Ok, now I'm officially nervous. My 02 RT/10 has been been rock solid. Maybe I shouldn't have pulled the trigger on a 17?

[7TH_SIGN]

Absolutely. I have told countless people exactly this. Only difference for me is I expected there to be constant problems from day one, as it's a super car. I merely expected dealerships to treat the car with respect. Instead they treat the car, and the customer, as if it's a dodge dart.

I will never ever own or recommend a Dodge product to anyone ever again. They fail from the corporate warranty fiasco down to how absolutely shitty their dealership network is. I'd go so far as to say they are the worst car company you can buy a car from in the US. On the other hand, Porsche treat everyone like they drove up with a 918 spider, give you daily calls to update you, provide you with decent loaners (not a dart for a Viper, but a Macan for 911), treat your car with kid gloves, etc.

Perfect example:

Take the Viper in for a seat creaking: "Oh, we wouldn't want to replace the seat because the leather might not match, so we're not even going to touch it".
Resolution: THREE DEALERSHIPS and a year LATER it turns out to be two bolts that needed tightening, 18 mile joy ride added onto odometer just for the hell of it.

Take the 911 in for a rattle in the door: "Here's your Cayman loaner, Sir, we'll update you by 4pm"
Resolution: "Door panel part replaced, car comes back vacuumed and washed with 3 miles to check for rattle."

Agreed.

I member on here PM'ed me his recent experience at his dealership. He dropped it off for service, when he arrived to pick his Viper up, they threw him the keys and said "here you go". Well as he made it to the driver side of the car he found a large dent and scratch going across the side sill removing the white paint.

[mnc2886]

Ok, now I'm officially nervous. My 02 RT/10 has been been rock solid. Maybe I shouldn't have pulled the trigger on a 17?

You'll be fine. Just don't modify it and do your maintenance and if you somehow get a bad motor, it'll get replaced. Note in every thread with these issues, the experience of owning the car and the car itself is always praised. It's just FCA that's been criticized.

[Murpowa]

I merely expected dealerships to treat the car with respect. Instead they treat the car, and the customer, as if it's a dodge dart.

I will never ever own or recommend a Dodge product to anyone ever again. They fail from the corporate warranty fiasco down to how absolutely shitty their dealership network is. I'd go so far as to say they are the worst car company you can buy a car from in the US. On the other hand, Porsche treat everyone like they drove up with a 918 spider, give you daily calls to update you, provide you with decent loaners (not a dart for a Viper, but a Macan for 911), treat your car with kid gloves, etc.
"

Completely agree. It's across the board. My DD is a WK2 Jeep SRT8 and it is the most expensive POS I've had the pleasure of owning in all my years as a car nut

[zee]

Ok, now I'm officially nervous. My 02 RT/10 has been been rock solid. Maybe I shouldn't have pulled the trigger on a 17?

Keep it stock and enjoy it if your nervous. Don't let the people from the sideline tell you otherwise. The G5 is an amazing machine and while it has had some QC issues, many are trouble free. I can understand how some owners are bitter if they got a crappy one and at the dealer all the time. One thing I agree with is the dealers for the most part are terrible. Worst part of the ownership experience by far and I only have been in once to complete R29. Night and day compared to my Porsche.

[Dave1968]

I wonder if the court would see this as a manf or seller liability.

If you could get this in writing from the Dodge salesman you might have a chance. They are deemed to be the expert in this case within contract law and if you proceed based upon what he has said to you to your detriment you do have a case.

[Dave1968]

Still on the fence? You would have the highest mileage motor break down if you did break down after 22k. If your car isn't consuming oil the I don't think you can get anymore reassurance than what you have in front of you. Hopefully you can modulate your anxiety and choose to install those products because they are indeed great products. Anyone over 10k without excessive oil consumption or other warning signs are most likely fine.

OP, you have stated repeatedly that you have the resources and ability to assemble the right team and my only recommendation is to just take action and if you want keep us updated. people should be excited someone is willing to take on FCA. It helps every viper because if he is successful litigating, he helps every viper owner here regardless of if your car even has problems. He helps from a resale standpoint alone. Good luck op.

Still on the fence, yes, but just because if I jump off too early and there is a problem, I donèt have the money right now to fix the car.

[Martin]

After reading post after post, and thread after thread about this, I'm not only concerned about my incoming '17 ACR, but I'm convinced that this matter needs to be litigated to put it to rest. Something is going on with these engines, and eventually one is going to fail in one of those "perfect storm" modes and cause some fatalities. At that point, FCA will be facing a whole new set of legal challenges.

What I don't get is the supposed connection between the Arrow PCM and the way these engines are failing. It's infuriating on one side because we all know that the PCM hasn't been proven to be the cause of the failure - any more than someone installing a non-factory oil fill or air cleaner. These kinds of cases have been gone over a million times via Magnusson Moss, and that's why Magnusson Moss exists.

On the other side, FCA does have enough leverage to stall and obscure any legal proceeding by just pointing to the warranty statement. It's wrong, but they have the legal right to at least try and argue that case. That's why this needs to be litigated - get it all out into public record, make all the facts known in the public domain, let the sides duke it out, and let the legal system do its job.

Personally, I'm just not going to modify anything on my car when it comes in - until well after the warranty is done. I'm even going to attempt to get in writing that doing things like a protective wrap won't void the warranty related to the paint.

At this point, we're in a whole new world order with respect to how warranties are being enforced, and I'm just not going to chance it. Let SEMA throw its lawyers at cases like this and let's see what happens. They're like the NRA for automotive enthusiasts and they have a very capable legal capacity.

Closing thought - it's really sad that this issue divides and polarizes the Viper community so much. We really should be sticking together on it and offering support to each other. This is an issue that seems to only affect some cars, and if you got lucky and got a car that is perfect, that's fantastic. But, there are people out there that got cars that have very similar problems - and that doesn't make them any less deserving of community support. Sure, if they went and put a 30 psi twin-turbo build on their engine and it went tits-up on them, well, they're hosed and that's common sense. But for some minor component install that didn't require cracking the engine, and was done by a dealer, and was designed by the former brain trust of the Viper engine development team, let's err on the side of common sense.

[texasram]

Your forgetting FCA makes other vehicles beside Vipers, if they fix Vipers, they would be expected to repair all vehicles that the owner modifies. What every comes out of this, would also apply to ALL vehicles FCA and other manufactures make. Based on this I don't see any manufacture now days "settling" when the owner does a modification that controls engine performance.

This is actually incorrect, just like the arrow controller, there are mopar performance parts that are dealer installed as well like mopar C.A.I's on challenger/chargers as opposed to C.A.I's by airraid/KNN, so this favorable outcome would be isolated only to the gen v's