Why isn t anyone suing FCA

[ACR]

If they are great I'd like to know, the community would as well. Why should they get away with this blown motor nonsense.

[ACRucrazy]

Why another thread?

[Bruce H.]

Not getting away with anything and there's no basis for a law suit. They've been replacing every stock blown motor under warranty and extended warranty on many more. Time to move on.

[Lemur]

Not getting away with anything and there's no basis for a law suit. They've been replacing every stock blown motor under warranty and extended warranty on many more. Time to move on.

No it's not time to move on. This is a serious issue and it should be at the top of the forum until it's resolved. Additionally, there is a substantial basis for lawsuit if you read the law.

[Bruce H.]

No it's not time to move on. This is a serious issue and it should be at the top of the forum until it's resolved. Additionally, there is a substantial basis for lawsuit if you read the law.

Could you briefly explain what that basis is so that forum members can understand what their position should be and what FCA should do?

I know there have been many stock engine failures, mostly among 2013 and early 2014 cars they issued the R28 recall on and that they have extended warranty on for an additional 5 years, with very few outside of that identified group. Failures almost always occur at low mileage. So every US stock Gen V engine made is warranted for 5 years, and the higher risk group is warranted for 10 years.

It seems to me that those warranties are long enough to reasonably satisfy current owners for at least 5 and 10 years. By then most will have put on enough miles where the engine will have proven itself to be safe. Those who don't plan to drive their cars enough over the next 5-10 years to satisfy themselves that their engine is among the unaffected have various choices and a long time to make them.

So I can see that FCA had a engine issue, with the vast majority in 2013 and early 2014, they've made significant improvements as failure rates since have been very low, and they've extended the warranty on the at-risk group.

The possibility of an engine failure over the long term is not unique to Vipers, and manufacturers warranties only provide coverage for a short term. FCA has done that, and beyond for many now. We'd all like to be covered for a lot longer, and in Canada we only get a 3 year warranty instead of the 5 year US one.

I think it would be impossible to build a legal case that FCA had not responded to the engine issue fairly. They are honoring warranty and have even extended it, fully protecting their owners for that period. Will every owner be satisfied with that...absolutely not, and anything short of a lifetime warranty won't satisfy some. But we need to get real, and each of us make and take responsibility for our own choices. In my case I know I bought an expensive car with expensive to repair parts and a warranty many years shorter than I typically keep a car. I took that risk with the Viper, but wouldn't take that risk when considering some other brands that would have been even more expensive. And like every car I've ever owned, I will decide when to sell it based on a variety of factors, projected costs and risks being among them.

This will never be "resolved" to the satisfaction of some, and I just can't see a compelling legal arguement. So please explain what you or anyone else feels is a winnable arguement.

[swexlin]

I am happy that FCA extended my warranty. Very cool of them. However, now, if your engine goes, they just don't replace it. Look at Reshetov's thread - now, the whole damn thing has to sit at the dealer, and everything torn down, before they will approve. It makes an already PITA process worse.

[Policy Limits]

And then even if given the green light on a new motor, the crappy part is replaced with the same part from same supplier. Haha. They say 90% of the things we worry about in life never even come to fruition. So chill. And unless your engine fails you don't have standing to sue anyway as you have no damages. As viperjon and others would say, you bought a "dodge"

[ViperPete]

Dear God let it go.

Don't modify your car if you don't want warranty issues.

Don't run Arrow PCM if you don't want warranty issues.

Some of us got a 10year 100k power train warranty. I would presume as a response to the engine failures occurring during the majority of 2013 and 2014 run of Vipers.

[swexlin]

Lemur, what is your issue? Did you motor pop? Or are they denying coverage for something? Please elaborate, if you are able.

[Lemur]

Dear God let it go.

Don't modify your car if you don't want warranty issues.

Don't run Arrow PCM if you don't want warranty issues.

Some of us got a 10year 100k power train warranty. I would presume as a response to the engine failures occurring during the majority of 2013 and 2014 run of Vipers.

No, I don't buy that. What FCA is doing isn't fair. It's a dealer sold and installed modification and they are denying due to reasons outside of the aftermarket part. That's not fair, and it's not legal to deny warranty coverage. If the tune did the damage, and it wasn't something I bought FROM a dodge dealer, I would own up to my responsibility, but it's NOT.

The people that got their 10 year warranty are happy, so they don't give a shit anymore - while the people that didn't got dicked over.

[swexlin]

No, I don't buy that. What FCA is doing isn't fair. It's a dealer sold and installed modification and they are denying due to reasons outside of the aftermarket part. That's not fair, and it's not legal to deny warranty coverage. If the tune did the damage, and it wasn't something I bought FROM a dodge dealer, I would own up to my responsibility, but it's NOT.

The people that got their 10 year warranty are happy, so they don't give a shit anymore - while the people that didn't got dicked over.

I have the warranty extension, and I DO give a shit. Even WITH the warranty, with the way FCA is treating people with popped engines (making them wait), we all have a dog in this fight.

[Terminator02]

Could you briefly explain what that basis is so that forum members can understand what their position should be and what FCA should do?

I know there have been many stock engine failures, mostly among 2013 and early 2014 cars they issued the R28 recall on and that they have extended warranty on for an additional 5 years, with very few outside of that identified group. Failures almost always occur at low mileage. So every US stock Gen V engine made is warranted for 5 years, and the higher risk group is warranted for 10 years.

It seems to me that those warranties are long enough to reasonably satisfy current owners for at least 5 and 10 years. By then most will have put on enough miles where the engine will have proven itself to be safe. Those who don't plan to drive their cars enough over the next 5-10 years to satisfy themselves that their engine is among the unaffected have various choices and a long time to make them.

So I can see that FCA had a engine issue, with the vast majority in 2013 and early 2014, they've made significant improvements as failure rates since have been very low, and they've extended the warranty on the at-risk group.

The possibility of an engine failure over the long term is not unique to Vipers, and manufacturers warranties only provide coverage for a short term. FCA has done that, and beyond for many now. We'd all like to be covered for a lot longer, and in Canada we only get a 3 year warranty instead of the 5 year US one.

I think it would be impossible to build a legal case that FCA had not responded to the engine issue fairly. They are honoring warranty and have even extended it, fully protecting their owners for that period. Will every owner be satisfied with that...absolutely not, and anything short of a lifetime warranty won't satisfy some. But we need to get real, and each of us make and take responsibility for our own choices. In my case I know I bought an expensive car with expensive to repair parts and a warranty many years shorter than I typically keep a car. I took that risk with the Viper, but wouldn't take that risk when considering some other brands that would have been even more expensive. And like every car I've ever owned, I will decide when to sell it based on a variety of factors, projected costs and risks being among them.

This will never be "resolved" to the satisfaction of some, and I just can't see a compelling legal arguement. So please explain what you or anyone else feels is a winnable arguement.

I know of at least 10 16s failed on here. Andy just said another stock 16 showed in his shop today and who knows how many pop up at dealers we don't hear about. Ironically, the only year I haven't heard many failures were 15s. But the failures keep coming as owners are driving: stock or not.

I agree that people need to modulate their emotion on the topic and do their own opportunity cost regarding stock vs modified when assessing risk. The risk is much higher with the gen V motor failing as opposed to any other Viper generation motor. I hear your point that engine issues occur with other manufacturers but you can't honestly say this generation and it's potential failure rate is anywhere NEAR normal for a Viper. That's what's frustrating owners I think as it makes modifying a car much scarier. Maybe you are really happy with everything on your car, plan to keep it stock and therefore the other side of the coin doesn't cross your mind?

Can someone reasonably sue for a denial of a preexisting engine problem with fca putting the onus of blame on the aftermarket controller? YES! Will one win if they sue? I don't know but encourage anyone to go find out. Why not explore It? I don't think it has to be belabored on the forums all the time in speculation.

It's been pointed out by members that they have has to sue in the past and the suits were settled. Bottom line is that there is a clear preexisting problem, maybe multiple problems with the gen V engine evidenced partially by the recalls. Previous gets did not have these problems and were truly bullet proof. Most people will be free of any spun bearings during the life of their ownership.

[mjorgensen]

I am happy that FCA extended my warranty. Very cool of them. However, now, if your engine goes, they just don't replace it. Look at Reshetov's thread - now, the whole damn thing has to sit at the dealer, and everything torn down, before they will approve. It makes an already PITA process worse.

The way warranty works with this teardown is the dealer tells the customer that they need to tear it all down and this will cost $$$ the customer is on the hook for all of that diag time and reassembly if the warranty is denied. This will do one of two things, either the customer will admit that there was a reason to not cover it and save themselves the extra money on a rebuild or the dealership will look for even more reasons that the warranty should be denied first so they are not stuck in the middle.

[swexlin]

The way warranty works with this teardown is the dealer tells the customer that they need to tear it all down and this will cost $$$ the customer is on the hook for all of that diag time and reassembly if the warranty is denied. This will do one of two things, either the customer will admit that there was a reason to not cover it and save themselves the extra money on a rebuild or the dealership will look for even more reasons that the warranty should be denied first so they are not stuck in the middle.

Mark, this is just sad. FCA was upfront and quick the first couple years of the Gen 5, and now it has come to this.

[Terminator02]

I would not want any run of the mill tech tearing down my motor. Talk about the potential to create more problems down the road. Thankfully I have arrow down the road. Many owners drive far distances to have their favorite Viper mechanic do their magic but I feel badly for those with very few options. This is a mess for dealers.

[mnc2886]

With all the threads popping up around this issue, what should be done is someone should put together a table summarizing engine failures, whats mods were done, etc. The mods should sticky it too. We can then have all of our discussion in that thread instead of so many negative threads. This forum is a great source for data mining on our cars and I believe a table of this sort would be of huge value for many members. It could look like this;

Last 8 of Vin	Year	Model	Miles @ Failure	Arrow PCM (Y or N)	HPT PCM (Y or N)	Other Mods	R28 (Y or N)	R29 (Y or N)	Status of Warranty Claim

[Lemur]

With all the threads popping up around this issue, what should be done is someone should put together a table summarizing engine failures, whats mods were done, etc. The mods should sticky it too. We can then have all of our discussion in that thread instead of so many negative threads. This forum is a great source for data mining on our cars and I believe a table of this sort would be of huge value for many members. It could look like this;

Last 8 of Vin	Year	Model	Miles @ Failure	Arrow PCM (Y or N)	HPT PCM (Y or N)	Other Mods	R28 (Y or N)	R29 (Y or N)	Status of Warranty Claim

Yes, Please! This is a great idea!

[ViperPete]

Has anyone considered the implications of the 10year 100k warranty given to "certain" 2013 and 2014 Vipers?

Dealers by law have to be able to provide OEM parts at least 10 years after a vehicle has been discontinued or changed/warranty expired

That means at the very least that FCA will have engines available until 2027.... They have to have what, a thousand of them on hand? I don't know what the process is but I bet there is a ratio of vehicles sold verses parts on hand.

They have obviously corrected the engine issue for them to make that move.

Go ahead and sue them. I cannot imagine anyone winning. Some people got the shaft and that sucks- i'm glad i'm not one of them. By the same token they took a great step in winning back loyalty.

I wouldn't doubt it if the warranty will be issued for all Gen V Vipers in the future.

[swexlin]

How much are you using? I use about a quart every 1000 miles, as do some others here. Unfortunately, as much as we disagree, FCA considers that normal, and will do nothing. KB uses a quart every 750, and they still considered normal.

Good luck, and keep us posted.

[ViperPete]

How much are you using? I use about a quart every 1000 miles, as do some others here. Unfortunately, as much as we disagree, FCA considers that normal, and will do nothing. KB uses a quart every 750, and they still considered normal.

Good luck, and keep us posted.

Mine doesn't burn a drop. I only use the Pennzoil. I tried multiple brands in the SRT10. That engine consumes Mobil one and Royal purple like hell.

[swexlin]

Has anyone considered the implications of the 10year 100k warranty given to "certain" 2013 and 2014 Vipers?

Dealers by law have to be able to provide OEM parts at least 10 years after a vehicle has been discontinued or changed/warranty expired

That means at the very least that FCA will have engines available until 2027.... They have to have what, a thousand of them on hand? I don't know what the process is but I bet there is a ratio of vehicles sold verses parts on hand.

They have obviously corrected the engine issue for them to make that move.

Go ahead and sue them. I cannot imagine anyone winning. Some people got the shaft and that sucks- i'm glad i'm not one of them. By the same token they took a great step in winning back loyalty.

I wouldn't doubt it if the warranty will be issued for all Gen V Vipers in the future.

Pete, with the trials and tribulations that folks are going through now, when the car is still in production, can you imagine what it will be like a few years from now. Hope none of us have to find out.

[ViperPete]

Pete, with the trials and tribulations that folks are going through now, when the car is still in production, can you imagine what it will be like a few years from now. Hope none of us have to find out.

All I am saying is that the 10/100 is a step in the right direction. I hope it goes for all.

[swexlin]

Mine doesn't burn a drop. I only use the Pennzoil. I tried multiple brands in the SRT10. That engine consumes Mobil one and Royal purple like hell.

Me too, Pennzoil factory fill. And I'm a pretty conservative drive. Car hasn't seen redline since I've owned it - just nowhere on my roads to do that safely and legally!

[swexlin]

All I am saying is that the 10/100 is a step in the right direction. I hope it goes for all.

Very much agreed.

[ViperGeorge]

Could you briefly explain what that basis is so that forum members can understand what their position should be and what FCA should do?

I know there have been many stock engine failures, mostly among 2013 and early 2014 cars they issued the R28 recall on and that they have extended warranty on for an additional 5 years, with very few outside of that identified group. Failures almost always occur at low mileage. So every US stock Gen V engine made is warranted for 5 years, and the higher risk group is warranted for 10 years.

It seems to me that those warranties are long enough to reasonably satisfy current owners for at least 5 and 10 years. By then most will have put on enough miles where the engine will have proven itself to be safe. Those who don't plan to drive their cars enough over the next 5-10 years to satisfy themselves that their engine is among the unaffected have various choices and a long time to make them.

So I can see that FCA had a engine issue, with the vast majority in 2013 and early 2014, they've made significant improvements as failure rates since have been very low, and they've extended the warranty on the at-risk group.

The possibility of an engine failure over the long term is not unique to Vipers, and manufacturers warranties only provide coverage for a short term. FCA has done that, and beyond for many now. We'd all like to be covered for a lot longer, and in Canada we only get a 3 year warranty instead of the 5 year US one.

I think it would be impossible to build a legal case that FCA had not responded to the engine issue fairly. They are honoring warranty and have even extended it, fully protecting their owners for that period. Will every owner be satisfied with that...absolutely not, and anything short of a lifetime warranty won't satisfy some. But we need to get real, and each of us make and take responsibility for our own choices. In my case I know I bought an expensive car with expensive to repair parts and a warranty many years shorter than I typically keep a car. I took that risk with the Viper, but wouldn't take that risk when considering some other brands that would have been even more expensive. And like every car I've ever owned, I will decide when to sell it based on a variety of factors, projected costs and risks being among them.

This will never be "resolved" to the satisfaction of some, and I just can't see a compelling legal arguement. So please explain what you or anyone else feels is a winnable arguement.

I posted this in another thread but the FTC confirmed that the Magnuson-Moss Act requires the manufacturer PROVE that the modified part caused the failure. This was directly from the SEMA site and the FTC site. So, yes, there is absolutely reason for anyone that has been denied a warranty claim due to the Arrow Controller to sue FCA. If my engine let loose and I had the Arrow Controller you bet I would get a lawyer and I would do it before the dealer even tore into the engine. I would want to make sure no evidence is accidently missed by the tech.

Second, your assertion that FCA is replacing all stock engines that have spun bearings is also not true. Read some of the other threads. My friend spun a bearing in his bone stock 14 three weeks or more ago and still no authorization from FCA for a new engine. Dealer had to tear it down and send photos but still no engine. In fact now the engines are on back order.