THe 800lb Guerilla

[ViperGeorge]

I've posted this thought a couple of times but no one has really taken the bait so I thought I would dedicate a thread to the topic. With FCA denying warranty claims on engines that have or at one time had the Arrow Controller installed what does this do to the used Viper market? Most if not all dealers won't run through any kind of diagnostic that would confirm that at one time the Arrow Controller was installed. In fact my understanding is that the two engines that were denied warranty claims did not even have the Arrow Controllers installed at the time of failure. Remember it literally takes 2 minutes to swap the OEM PCM back in.

Given this customers of used Vipers might be buying a car which they and the dealer thinks is covered by a full powertrain warranty. What happens when it isn't? Isn't FCA setting up their dealer network as the fall guys? Questionable business practice for sure. It is hard to believe that someone at FCA doesn't realize this. Are they really that stupid?

[KB Viper]

i see exactly what you are saying and you are right. if someone traded in a Viper that once had the pcm and it was low milgage and a couple years old the assumption would be its a warrenty car. someone walks in, buys the viper, spings the bearing and under investigation its a warrenty denied car. who's eating the cost on that? I' getting my motor rebuilt so I can fix my oil buring and not worry about this anymore.

[ACRSNK]

It will be interesting to see exactly how this plays out. Major problem.

[Vprbite]

When I bought my current viper they were able to tell me how many starts since the battery replacement. Wouldn't you at least be able to see how many starts since the ECU was put in? Making people leery if it's a low number like 12 or something. And if it's a high number, say 190, if a dealership can't tell the computer was swapped how would dodge know it ever was? I'm honestly curious about this. Thanks in advance for any answers.

[Terminator02]

When I bought my current viper they were able to tell me how many starts since the battery replacement. Wouldn't you at least be able to see how many starts since the ECU was put in? Making people leery if it's a low number like 12 or something. And if it's a high number, say 190, if a dealership can't tell the computer was swapped how would dodge know it ever was? I'm honestly curious about this. Thanks in advance for any answers.

No a dealer would know by analyzing the odometer miles vs the PCM miles. The problem is many dealers won't do this as standard protocol prior to selling the vehicle. Some on here claim it's the prospective buyers due diligence but I disagree as many won't know to ask this as they aren't forumites and it's not a widely published issue. For that, I'd say if an owner ran into that problem it's on the dealer that sold the vehicle.

Hopefully fca will at least give protocols to dealerships but again there's another problem. Many used vipers end up on non fca lots and I just don't see any solution to that. It's a very muddy situation currently and the best we can do is advise all prospective owners on this forum to the issue and what exactly to check pre-purchase.

Dave

[Steve M]

I can't see ever buying one, but it has nothing to do with the warranty - too many minor issues were carried over from the previous generation (leaking oil cooler lines, shoddy window regulators), and too many major issues have cropped up (exploding rear glass, motors spinning bearings, oil consumption, differential issues, etc.). I know some cars are fine, but there are enough that aren't that it would make me leery of ever upgrading...I'd feel like I was driving a ticking time bomb, and would always be worried that the car would go tits up just after the warranty expires. Just look at how many guys are paranoid to use their rear window defroster...that just doesn't seem like an enjoyable owner experience to me.

I've never placed value on a manufacturer's warranty...I had enough issues with GM's warranty process, and Chrysler appears to be as bad or worse. Car's burning oil? Oh, you must be driving it like a race car. Spun a bearing? Race car. Yeah, there's Magnuson-Moss, but I don't have the time or inclination to lawyer up, and that's exactly what they're counting on.

[Bruce H.]

I don't think the used Viper market will be affected at all,

I don't think used car dealers face any different challenge regarding buying and selling high performance cars that they know have a high likelihood of having been modified. It's their business to know all about the cars they buy, this is what they do, and it's never been the manufacturers responsibility to cover them if they screw up. Reputable dealers do their job better, and provide better after-sale service.

And I don't think that buyers who do their due diligence are suddenly sheep being led to the slaughter. Any simple Google search for Viper buying advise leads you to this site where all areas of concern are exhaustively discussed, and where responses to any request for advise are enthusiastically given. I would suggest that buyers of Vipers are already familiar with how to research and buy cars, and those that want to be careful will be. And it's not FCA's or our responsibility to protect those who aren't.

The process of buying and selling a car like the Viper hasn't changed...the use of the Arrow controller is just one more item on a long list.

I think buyers of used Vipers would be well advised to determine if an Arrow controller has ever been used on the car. If they are unable to do that, and if that is a deal breaker for them, then they should simply walk and go to a dealer that is willing and able to provide that information. If one has been used, or not knowing isn't a deal breaker, then they can negotiate the purchase accordingly. Perhaps some dealers will offer their own warranty.

Caveat Emptor, the principle that the buyer alone is responsible for checking the quality and suitability of goods before a purchase is made, is still the rule that both dealers and consumers need to follow when purchasing a Viper or any other car for resale or ownership. FCA has no more responsibility for care in this area than when dealers loaded up inventory of highly optioned cars in 2013, and I'm sure they are doing all they can behind the scenes to address the issue as best as they can. Providing the extended warranty is just the part that we have seen...so far.

Bruce

[parabs]

It's wrong, but for the time being people in the market for a gen 5 need to set aside $$ for a rebuild. Any prospective buyers that google "2013-2017 viper problems" or similar and they will get scared away, probably. Gen 5 vipers will be an interesting case study down the road.

(I say this from the perspective as one day planning to buy a 2014 black TA.)

[vipernm]

No a dealer would know by analyzing the odometer miles vs the PCM miles. The problem is many dealers won't do this as standard protocol prior to selling the vehicle. Some on here claim it's the prospective buyers due diligence but I disagree as many won't know to ask this as they aren't forumites and it's not a widely published issue. For that, I'd say if an owner ran into that problem it's on the dealer that sold the vehicle.

Hopefully fca will at least give protocols to dealerships but again there's another problem. Many used vipers end up on non fca lots and I just don't see any solution to that. It's a very muddy situation currently and the best we can do is advise all prospective owners on this forum to the issue and what exactly to check pre-purchase.

Dave

Ok. So given that I'm in the market for a 13-14 and I'll be buying from an FCA dealer how does the Tech verify this? By using the scan tool to verify the odometer and PCM mileages are the same?

Or maybe an easier (but more stringent) decision rule is to only consider those cars that have the extended powertrain warranty. Downside is the number of available cars would be significantly reduced.

[Terminator02]

Ok. So given that I'm in the market for a 13-14 and I'll be buying from an FCA dealer how does the Tech verify this? By using the scan tool to verify the odometer and PCM mileages are the same?

Or maybe an easier (but more stringent) decision rule is to only consider those cars that have the extended powertrain warranty. Downside is the number of available cars would be significantly reduced.

Nope you got it. Just have the dealer scan and make sure the odometer and ecu miles match up. Congrats on your decision to purchase, it's a great vehicle.

[SRT_BluByU]

If I'm not mistaken I think when you trade in a car there is a std dealer form you sign in finance office with other paperwork stating you haven't tampered with any emission control devices. I could reasonably see how this might have some implications if an issue arises.

[JM25]

Don't the service logs show when the Arrow PCM/ECU was calibrated for the car? I remember a thread where someone posted vehicle history info/service logs, and it showed the date the new PCM/ECU was programmed.

[Stealth78]

It's wrong, but for the time being people in the market for a gen 5 need to set aside $$ for a rebuild. Any prospective buyers that google "2013-2017 viper problems" or similar and they will get scared away, probably. Gen 5 vipers will be an interesting case study down the road.

(I say this from the perspective as one day planning to buy a 2014 black TA.)

Your first sentence is why you can pretty much guarantee that 50% of prospective buyers are now removed. Hardcore guys that frequently race, and then another portion the Prospective buyers can swallow that, but there is a huge portion of people that cannot. For someone who just wants a Viper to cruise around, have fun, and some only put 1,000-3,000 miles a year, telling them they need to have money for a rebuild set aside is ludicrous and will very likely deter them from buying a Viper.

[ViperJon]

I wouldn't be surprised if they have dealers run any Gen V that comes in for any service to flag it for future warranty issues as a matter of course.
Speed up the denial process.

[Stealth78]

Another portion of this that I do not believe anyone has mentioned in determining future value. There are a lot of GenV's on the market that were lemon'd or had buybacks, also others that had R28 and also had Arrow PCM's which also overrides the newfound extended warranty. So all of these cars that are in the $60k's and $70k's are sitting and cluttering up the GenV market and people who are not on the forum and are not avidly following this don't know why and just assume that's where the market is. Bigger problem those cars for the majority aren't going anywhere, and even worse if someone inquires about one on the forum people tell you to just stay clear and buy a better car (more respectable Viper). Anyhow with all that being said it had me so spooked I went and bought a low mileage mint condition GenIV.

[Terminator02]

Another portion of this that I do not believe anyone has mentioned in determining future value. There are a lot of GenV's on the market that were lemon'd or had buybacks, also others that had R28 and also had Arrow PCM's which also overrides the newfound extended warranty. So all of these cars that are in the $60k's and $70k's are sitting and cluttering up the GenV market and people who are not on the forum and are not avidly following this don't know why and just assume that's where the market is. Bigger problem those cars for the majority aren't going anywhere, and even worse if someone inquires about one on the forum people tell you to just stay clear and buy a better car (more respectable Viper). Anyhow with all that being said it had me so spooked I went and bought a low mileage mint condition GenIV.

Pointless to discuss future value at this point. Spun bearings have occurred with each model year and even the r28 cars of almost 4 years old, at some point, will have plenty of miles pointing to a strong sign the engine is fine or already replaced or rebuilt. Gen lV cars can be had at great prices right now for many models as owners are upgrading to gen V. launch editions still sell well as do the 14-15 TA cars regardless of recalls. It's definitely far from doom and gloom.

[uberpube]

I dunno, I buy used SRT vehicles without a warranty on purpose, it's discounted and I know I get to mess with it without worrying about de-valueing it further. The GEN V is the only new car I have ever purchased, I have no intentions of modding it.

[ViperSmith]

I wouldn't be surprised if they have dealers run any Gen V that comes in for any service to flag it for future warranty issues as a matter of course.
Speed up the denial process.

I'd be shocked if this isn't SOP now

[Stealth78]

Pointless to discuss future value at this point. Spun bearings have occurred with each model year and even the r28 cars of almost 4 years old, at some point, will have plenty of miles pointing to a strong sign the engine is fine or already replaced or rebuilt. Gen lV cars can be had at great prices right now for many models as owners are upgrading to gen V. launch editions still sell well as do the 14-15 TA cars regardless of recalls. It's definitely far from doom and gloom.

Sorry to say but future value in my mind is as early as tomorrow, and this thread was started with what our thoughts are as this unfolds. I'm not saying certain models won't bring more of a premium, but it may not be as much as some would like to believe, there has been a one owner Orange TA in AZ that has been struggling to pull $80K on eBay, I think it has been listed a couple times now back to back and not sure if it sold yet or not. Your car was bought at a very desirable price and that other Orange TA in NH also sold sub $80K about a month ago. I'm not trying to discredit these cars, I would love to have one, but I'm not going to pay more than a reasonable price. You cannot deny that the topic at hand has had some bearing in the devaluation of these cars, period.

[swexlin]

I'd be shocked if this isn't SOP now

Harold or Jon - not sure what you mean "flagged"? Meaning dealers will now have to get special permission for any warranty work before they can proceed? This is already the case for 16s and 17s.

[ViperGeorge]

You install an after market part or over drive a car - FCA is no different than any other factory warranty denied.

Dealers are buying the car and selling the car that has no warranty - what does FCA have to do with it?

I think the difference is that the PCM is a stealth mod. You swap in the original PCM before you trade it and the only way a dealer would know is if they compare mileage between the PCM and the odometer. I know of no dealer that is currently doing that. And this would not cover dealers that aren't FCA dealers. They would buy a one year old Viper and simply assume it has a warranty. They would not even have the necessary equipment to check the mileage as this requires the Witech (or whatever it is called). Again the PCM isn't like headers or cats, you can easily see they were modified. Even a H&C car would have the cam lope when it ran.

As far as I remember the only thing the seller of the car certifies is that the mileage on the odometer is correct. You don't say there has never been a mod to the car, at least where my cars are registered that's the case.

[AZTVR]

Ok. So given that I'm in the market for a 13-14 and I'll be buying from an FCA dealer how does the Tech verify this? By using the scan tool to verify the odometer and PCM mileages are the same?

Or maybe an easier (but more stringent) decision rule is to only consider those cars that have the extended powertrain warranty. Downside is the number of available cars would be significantly reduced.

Your second statement about only considering extended powertrain warranty cars does not preclude the need to check whether the powertrain warranty would actually be honored, as you mention in your first statement.

[ViperJon]

Harold or Jon - not sure what you mean "flagged"? Meaning dealers will now have to get special permission for any warranty work before they can proceed? This is already the case for 16s and 17s.

Purely conjecture but I would not be shocked.....What I meant was that you bring your car into a Dodge dealer for any reason, even basic servicing. FCA has a directive to all dealers that when a Gen V is brought in to check the PCM mileage against odometer mileage and note it. If they are out of whack with each other the VIN is flagged in case of future powertrain issues.

[Terminator02]

Sorry to say but future value in my mind is as early as tomorrow, and this thread was started with what our thoughts are as this unfolds. I'm not saying certain models won't bring more of a premium, but it may not be as much as some would like to believe, there has been a one owner Orange TA in AZ that has been struggling to pull $80K on eBay, I think it has been listed a couple times now back to back and not sure if it sold yet or not. Your car was bought at a very desirable price and that other Orange TA in NH also sold sub $80K about a month ago. I'm not trying to discredit these cars, I would love to have one, but I'm not going to pay more than a reasonable price. You cannot deny that the topic at hand has had some bearing in the devaluation of these cars, period.

What I think the biggest problem is, is that our community gets non owners chiming in with constant price devaluations. I do agree at this very point in time, the bearings issue is affecting not only sales of every model year but every generation. I'd say you are an exception that would bypass a gen V to go to a 4. Most will just leave viper. I see relatively anemic pricing on all models now. I'm seeing gen 4s going for lower than I've seen. Gen lls which I owned and followed for years have always been "at the bottom only going to go up soon."

For me it's pretty simple, we have as viper owners the last of big NA V10 power plants with exotic looks, low production and manual transmission. Those all are tic boxes to collectibility. If our values are low, we as the community are primarily to blame secondary to FCA or any issues. I'm a broken record on the topic but it's true. NSX, boss and terminator mustangs, and plenty of more common vehicles have stronger resale due to the community.

The controller issue will pass and yes I do agree with you to an extent regarding current selling trends. I would not want to be in a position to want or have to sell right now.

[parabs]

...the bearings issue is affecting not only sales of every model year but every generation....

100% agree with you on this.

The gen 5's are newer, far more opulent, and more powerful when compared on paper to previous gens. If a gen 5 sells for 60k that crushes gen 3 and 4 valuations. That sore of data is the ultimate levarage to deal on cars. Lemon law, spun bearing, pcm, etc all included. The only cars exempt from this list would be accident history vehicles in my opinion.

I could care less though, I have my car to drive it. And I could care less on the history of the 14 TA I plan to purchase one day, but you're damn sure that I will compare "current market" value when I deal.

Viper = an incredible car. I'm working on a deal on a 2010 acr to add to my 2005 because they are incredible cars!