Received a response to my note to SRT regarding spun bearing issues

[TrackAire]

Similar experience for me. I have owned a few Harley-Davidson dealerships, prior to that I worked for Harley-Davidson. Everyone probably knows Harley's are often modified by it's rider, and Harley certainly knows that. They will cover powertrain related claims as long as they determine the failure was not related to the modifications done to the bike, including powertrain mods.

So you're saying the manufacturer (HD) uses logic and common sense and then communicates with its dealer in determining if the mod is relevant to the failure or not......what a concept!!

[ViperGeorge]

FYI, I just heard that my friend's bone stock car that spun a bearing (#2) is still waiting on an engine. They are on back order according to the dealer. Now, that sucks.

[mjorgensen]

FYI, I just heard that my friend's bone stock car that spun a bearing (#2) is still waiting on an engine. They are on back order according to the dealer. Now, that sucks.

Not really because if they send one out it will be just like the first one... a crap shoot.

[swexlin]

Back order? It's possible, as they are so backed up on Viper production, that every engine is being used. Sucks for your buddy, and Resh, and any others waiting.

[ViperGeorge]

Not really because if they send one out it will be just like the first one... a crap shoot.

True, but his car sits at the dealer with no engine. At least a new ticking time bomb might not blow for a while so he could be enjoying it a little.

[ViperJon]

Can't you lemon law a car that sits unfixable after a certain amount of time?

[ViperGeorge]

Can't you lemon law a car that sits unfixable after a certain amount of time?

Not sure but doesn't a Lemon law cover the original owner for like the first year only? His car is a 2014.

[Stealth78]

Not sure but doesn't a Lemon law cover the original owner for like the first year only? His car is a 2104.

No. My 2013 Ram 1500 Sport was lemoned 1.5 years after I bought it. Clearly this was back in 2014 but I do not believe the laws have changed. At the time it went fairly smoothly, that is after about a year of the truck being plaqued by electrical issues. But all said and done I got every penny back.

[Stealth78]

Not sure but doesn't a Lemon law cover the original owner for like the first year only? His car is a 2104.

It's also nice to know that the Viper does eventually return in 2104, it must be bad ass! I'm still trying to figure out how he got it back to 2016 though.... damn time traveler's.

[Terminator02]

Similar experience for me. I have owned a few Harley-Davidson dealerships, prior to that I worked for Harley-Davidson. Everyone probably knows Harley's are often modified by it's rider, and Harley certainly knows that. They will cover powertrain related claims as long as they determine the failure was not related to the modifications done to the bike, including powertrain mods.

Last 100 posts, that hurts. More like 10-15 total, and 85-90 drool/congrats posts, but no offense.

I'm posting here on this point in the long shot that FCA is reading here, which some claim, but probably not.

Sorry if I irritate you and any others with the posts like this, I'm doing it out of my support for owners and my frustration with being a devout Viper owner, tracker, representor since '99 and now not having one and feeling forced out. Which is how I feel from FCA.

I'll stop posting on the topic, last thing I want is for good owners and members to think of me as negative and irritating, so I'm done. It was in good intent and frustration. But, I'll stick to congrats and any tech help posts from now on. Im out of viper ownership for the first time in 17 years, so I guess I'll lurk around now and then, but chill. Just pissed off a bit, but no reason for you or others to have to 'listen' to it, since it's not going to help really anyway I guess.

Sorry, my viper brother, and no worries calling me out, I appreciate the honesty, Peace.

Dude super classy post. I am also guilty of unintentionally ruffling feathers and if someone does the same I have called them out. I've taken a step back and realized you can't please many people on a forum and it's not worth trying to bring clarity or hash things out. I find using the Facebook page is better, more civil and I've even made some good friends consequently. I share many of your sentiments.

George, well written and intended letter. I have quite a few friends in litigation and am having them follow this situation. Even with my highly modified car, they are very confident I'd have a strong case against fca if I were to spin a bearing. I can't give specific rational but I'd strongly recommend anyone with a spun bearing to lawyer up and skip reaching out yourself.

Finally, at one point I believe controllers were not disqualifying engine replacements and if that is true that's a huge problem. Someone would need to fact check me on that. But many of these controllers were pitched as a benign mod and I'm glad some dealers are advocating for those that have spun. It's not unreasonable then that fca does find new reasons to deny warranty work if engines continue to blow and pcms are not on the vehicle. I suspect that's the delay in giving our latest completely stock member his work (which will be aporoved) .

We shouldn't let fca and their horrible response to this issue divide us as a community.

Dave

[Ripper]

I've watched these discussions over the last several months and opted to not comment until after I had my car.
The bottom line here is pretty simple...an Arrow PCM changes the configuration of the car as it was delivered by FCA. It doesn't matter if they covered cars with Arrows in the past. It doesn't matter if Dink Winkles designed it. It doesn't matter if FCA knows that there is a casting flaw in the Gen V blocks that may or may not place debris in the lubrication system and cause a failure. What matters is that the car was modified. You have a "contract" with FCA...follow the rules of that contract and they'll abide by its terms.

Insinuating that brake pads and tires and oil changes will void the warranty is a bit extreme. MMA was not written to allow consumers to modify the items in general. It was written to protect consumers' rights to the factory warranty if they use aftermarket replacement parts and service. They can't void your warranty with a part that is a replacement part with the same function as OEM, but they can void your warranty if that part is a "racing" part or changes the configuration of the car (i.e. fuel, spark, timing, AF, rev limiter, etc.).

A lot of the same teeth-gnashing is happening in the Corvette community relative to CAI's and tunes. It won't be hard for FCA to convince a judge that increasing horsepower, adjusting the AF ratio and changing the rev limiter would put internal components of the engine outside of their designed operating parameters.
S.

BINGO

Very well written ..great job explaining S.

[gcrain]

Not really because if they send one out it will be just like the first one... a crap shoot.

Is there anything that can be done to make a Gen V engine reliable or trustworthy.

[ViperGeorge]

Is there anything that can be done to make a Gen V engine reliable or trustworthy.

Mark had posted in another thread that he would build up the engine starting with a Gen IV block. Those blocks have been very reliable. To quote him, "not cheap".

[donb]

Is there anything that can be done to make a Gen V engine reliable or trustworthy.

Just to throw a different perspective into this discussion.

I just bought a new 2015 (leftover) off the lot in Michigan...the last 45 mins I've been driving thru rain in the dark.

All this engine drama almost talked me out of buying one.

I wonder how many it did scare away.

[Terminator02]

Just to throw a different perspective into this discussion.

I just bought a new 2015 (leftover) off the lot in Michigan...the last 45 mins I've been driving thru rain in the dark.

All this engine drama almost talked me out of buying one.

I wonder how many it did scare away.

I'm not sure that's a different perspective to his question? He's asking what can be done to make the engine more reliable so I don't see the different perspective? I suppose a few people have been scared away but not many. Many buyers don't use the forums and don't even know engine problems exist as most salesmen at viper certified dealers know about spun bearings. It's a niche market and the people that guy the car who also come to the forum may have some chance of being scared off but I'd venture to say there are more scared sellers than buyers which is great for buyers.

Gcrain, you can rebuild the block I guess as one intervention and the most drastic and preventative measure. Or I'd say you can first assess your risk factors, perform tests and then act based on relative risk.

For example, my car is an r28 car so it's likely the highest risk engine. Both recalls passed so that's good. I have 4100+ well driven miles and those miles put it outside the bell curve of engines that will fail. After a few thousand there are only a handful that fail at 6-12k miles. So that's good. I check the oil after each drive and all checks out. I check the air filter for leakage and there isn't any so that's good. Am I in the clear? Probably. So the risk is small for me to need to take extra measures at this point.

Now if a car is consuming a quart of oil every 700 miles and is at risk with other factors maybe it's worth having a leak down test performed or pulling the engine and having the engine block washed and examined at a premium cost. Or just have it rebuilt. It all comes down to probability, cost analysis and what you feel comfortable doing. the best thing you can do is drive the car, put miles on it and enjoy the heck out of it. There are only a few cars I'd upgrade to from the viper and they are much more than the cost of a rebuild.

Dave

[outnumbered]

Maybe this will provide some comfort....My motor had to be replaced at 3800 miles. We never found out the exact problem, but assume it was debris, as the oil pressure pegged, and never came down. It never quite running, but we have to assume it would have eventually.

I also have to assume Chrysler was fairly confident with my replacement. Then again, maybe they had no clue, but here is where we are. After the replacement, and a 1000 mile break-in, I installed a full exhaust and Arrow PCM. About 5000 miles later, I removed the Arrow, and had the car tuned by Torrie. I now have 22,000 miles on the car. I have raced the car 6 times (hot laps) in 90 degree weather down ZMax drag strip. I also have a 1/4 mile stretch of road that I am constantly rolling through the gears, taking the car to redline. She has never faltered. Hopefully I haven't jinxed myself with this post.

[ViperJon]

Maybe this will provide some comfort....My motor had to be replaced at 3800 miles. We never found out the exact problem, but assume it was debris, as the oil pressure pegged, and never came down. It never quite running, but we have to assume it would have eventually.

I also have to assume Chrysler was fairly confident with my replacement. Then again, maybe they had no clue, but here is where we are. After the replacement, and a 1000 mile break-in, I installed a full exhaust and Arrow PCM. About 5000 miles later, I removed the Arrow, and had the car tuned by Torrie. I now have 22,000 miles on the car. I have raced the car 6 times (hot laps) in 90 degree weather down ZMax drag strip. I also have a 1/4 mile stretch of road that I am constantly rolling through the gears, taking the car to redline. She has never faltered. Hopefully I haven't jinxed myself with this post.

Thank you, that's really good to read.

[Terminator02]

Thank you, that's really good to read.

Good to read and it is the common reality. I'm not too keen on the engine problems but the reality is there are many more good examples than bad. It also shows the importance of driving the car not only for enjoyment and smiles per gallon but also to mitigate possible engine problems that seem to come from the cars not driven as often. Continue to enjoy that beautiful car Ron in great health.

[mnc2886]

I have a feeling FCA won't start honoring warranty on failed engines with the Arrow PCM unless their litigation they have pending with their supplier in regards to these failures gets ruled in FCA's favor. That way they don't have to pay for it.

Anyone heard anything on that lawsuit?

[ViperGeorge]

Maybe this will provide some comfort....My motor had to be replaced at 3800 miles. We never found out the exact problem, but assume it was debris, as the oil pressure pegged, and never came down. It never quite running, but we have to assume it would have eventually.

I also have to assume Chrysler was fairly confident with my replacement. Then again, maybe they had no clue, but here is where we are. After the replacement, and a 1000 mile break-in, I installed a full exhaust and Arrow PCM. About 5000 miles later, I removed the Arrow, and had the car tuned by Torrie. I now have 22,000 miles on the car. I have raced the car 6 times (hot laps) in 90 degree weather down ZMax drag strip. I also have a 1/4 mile stretch of road that I am constantly rolling through the gears, taking the car to redline. She has never faltered. Hopefully I haven't jinxed myself with this post.

My wife's SRT 8 Jeep just had the same issue. Oil pressure pegged and threw a CEL. Still ran perfectly. Bad oil pressure sensor was all. Common problem on Vipers and other FCA vehicles. My dealer stocks them since they've changed so many.

[reshetov]

So many good posts . . . I'll just bullet point some answers (SWEXLIN, Dman, nx91notch and others) and questions I have as well:

- 10/7/16 - my '16 ACR towed to dealer with engine problem, 100% stock (the only "mod" I have on the car is an installed front tow hook bought from Woodhouse)
- 10/10/16 - dealer contacts FCA, they tell them to take a things apart and take pictures of everything so they can review if there are any mods
- 10/14/16 - the front of the car has been practically taken apart, oil pan dropped, one head taken off, engine might as well look like it's ready to come out. All pictures sent to FCA for review. I had a chance to take a look at it and FCA practically had them disassemble the engine themselves.
- As of today 10/22/16 - No decision has still been communicated by FCA on whether the dealer can proceed with engine removal or not. So we are still in a holding pattern waiting.

To clarify, no engine has been shipped. This is just to let the dealer know "yes, this fix will require an engine to be replaced" so they can pull it. Has anyone heard of this process taking a while? Is there really a backlog of engines out there? Is it possible FCA is stalling because they know they can't get a replacement engine any time soon? Understood if they want to go through their due diligence, but if this gets into the end of this week it will have been 2 weeks that they will have been twiddling their thumbs over a decision.

ViperGeorge, I'm with you for sure. I would rather be enjoying it and waiting for it to blow up again rather than having it sit at the dealer with its guts out. Also, since it is a crap shoot of whether the replacement engine will or won't blow up the same way is anyone's guess, so it is hypothetically possible to go through this scenario multiple times.

To some of the other comments posted by Mark and others - it sounds like since there is a known issue, even if the PCM doesn't cause it, FCA is using the Arrow PCM if installed at any point as just a reason to deny paying for the replacement of the engine. Having said that, the Arrow PCM (or any other PCM or tune that didn't come with the car) is still something that changes some part of the way the car runs, and as unfortunate as it is it looks like that would be enough to void the warranty, even if the issue isn't caused by the PCM and rather some inherent defect. That is unfortunate but once an owner decides to make any modification to the car, FCA can certainly use it as evidence. It seems people are divided as to whether that is fair or not, naturally since everyone has a different opinion, but that is the reality of the world we are living in. I certainly didn't know enough about all of this before buying the car, and if I did it certainly would have given me a ton more of perspective.

Meanwhile, I'm back to further waiting on a green light from FCA

[gcrain]

Not really because if they send one out it will be just like the first one... a crap shoot.

So the brand new engines are just as bad? Can somebody please go ahead and tell us what the cause is???

[Policy Limits]

I have a feeling FCA won't start honoring warranty on failed engines with the Arrow PCM unless their litigation they have pending with their supplier in regards to these failures gets ruled in FCA's favor. That way they don't have to pay for it.

Anyone heard anything on that lawsuit?

What's the corporate identity of the block supplier?

[ViperSmith]

So many good posts . . . I'll just bullet point some answers (SWEXLIN, Dman, nx91notch and others) and questions I have as well:

- 10/7/16 - my '16 ACR towed to dealer with engine problem, 100% stock (the only "mod" I have on the car is an installed front tow hook bought from Woodhouse)
- 10/10/16 - dealer contacts FCA, they tell them to take a things apart and take pictures of everything so they can review if there are any mods
- 10/14/16 - the front of the car has been practically taken apart, oil pan dropped, one head taken off, engine might as well look like it's ready to come out. All pictures sent to FCA for review. I had a chance to take a look at it and FCA practically had them disassemble the engine themselves.
- As of today 10/22/16 - No decision has still been communicated by FCA on whether the dealer can proceed with engine removal or not. So we are still in a holding pattern waiting.

To clarify, no engine has been shipped. This is just to let the dealer know "yes, this fix will require an engine to be replaced" so they can pull it. Has anyone heard of this process taking a while? Is there really a backlog of engines out there? Is it possible FCA is stalling because they know they can't get a replacement engine any time soon? Understood if they want to go through their due diligence, but if this gets into the end of this week it will have been 2 weeks that they will have been twiddling their thumbs over a decision.

ViperGeorge, I'm with you for sure. I would rather be enjoying it and waiting for it to blow up again rather than having it sit at the dealer with its guts out. Also, since it is a crap shoot of whether the replacement engine will or won't blow up the same way is anyone's guess, so it is hypothetically possible to go through this scenario multiple times.

To some of the other comments posted by Mark and others - it sounds like since there is a known issue, even if the PCM doesn't cause it, FCA is using the Arrow PCM if installed at any point as just a reason to deny paying for the replacement of the engine. Having said that, the Arrow PCM (or any other PCM or tune that didn't come with the car) is still something that changes some part of the way the car runs, and as unfortunate as it is it looks like that would be enough to void the warranty, even if the issue isn't caused by the PCM and rather some inherent defect. That is unfortunate but once an owner decides to make any modification to the car, FCA can certainly use it as evidence. It seems people are divided as to whether that is fair or not, naturally since everyone has a different opinion, but that is the reality of the world we are living in. I certainly didn't know enough about all of this before buying the car, and if I did it certainly would have given me a ton more of perspective.

Meanwhile, I'm back to further waiting on a green light from FCA

Contact a lemon law attorney. Start the ball rolling.

[mnc2886]

What's the corporate identity of the block supplier?

I have no idea. I'm sure someone from Woodhouse or Tomball knows.