Viper Raffles?

[Angleiron]

Why are there no more Viper raffles where all of the members can get a chance to win a new car? Just curious...

[01sapphirebob]

The VOA doesnt need to do Raffles. The raffles that the VCA did (while at first im sure were a benefit to the members) turned into a revenue source for the club. The VOA was set up to run with out the need for a raffle. Plus, i dont believe there is a way to legally hold these raffles. The VOA does however provde a doorprive at our NVE events of a brand new viper.

[Angleiron]

The VOA doesnt need to do Raffles. The raffles that the VCA did (while at first im sure were a benefit to the members) turned into a revenue source for the club. The VOA was set up to run with out the need for a raffle. Plus, i dont believe there is a way to legally hold these raffles. The VOA does however provde a doorprive at our NVE events of a brand new viper.

Only people who can attend the NVE get this opportunity...and not everyone can do this which limits the club as a whole. Say what you will about the old club but at least everyone who wanted a chance to win a new car had the opportunity to win the car. This should not be about having to do it for money. Just saying

[BlknBlu]

Who won cars over there the last 2 years, they did not get enough interest to actually award the cars.

Bruce

[ViperTony]

I'm sure that once the VOA is legally able to hold raffles they will do so. Remember, the VOA is only in it's 3rd year of existence as an entity. I believe the rule is 5 years to be legally eligible to hold raffles. This was discussed on the forums ad nausea during NVE1.

[SmoknTires]

What the guys said above is correct, this is often done to earn money for a club and the VOA hasn't needed to do it for that reason. However, the VOA actually did look into this (both in the past and somewhat recently), and based on extensive research, two different attorneys we hired stated that a raffle cannot be done legally. We even hired folks from different states who specialize in this. They even looked at specific examples of raffles being conducted actively which we provided to them, they looked into it and came back with the same caution. We'd like to do it simply as a member benefit, and the VOA indeed has the member numbers to actually clear the cost of the car and award one by selling enough tickets (rather than going to a 50/50 which just pisses people off), however we can't risk anything with the club over this - we're told it's just not legal regardless of how we may do it. There's not trick to it, and it's actually not tied to time. The problem isn't in how you do the raffle or how long you're in business, it's simply the fact that you're subject to many jurisdictions and laws when you sell countrywide, a raffle is a form of gambling and there's no way to do it easily and not be exposed if someone decides to make an example of you.

On a different note, the doorprize car for NVE is merely that, much like a trinket you get in a goodie bag, as a "gift" for attending an event. It can be done if you give it away as part of the cost of attending an event. I will also mention, despite things published on VCA's own website stating that the VOA is earning money on that (and providing specific $ amounts), it's of course completely INCORRECT. The doorprize is a pass through cost, 100% of it's cost is carried by the event and not a dime is made on it, I'd like to clear that up while we're on the topic - as some of our own members are misled by things posted about us. I don't know why we continue to be a topic of discussion and criticism (even recently) on their forums by their own officers and directors over 2 1/2 later, but we stay quiet simply because it's not worth acknowledging. We've asked their leadership to discontinue to discuss us, and remove erroneous information/attacks about our club from their public forums. We even offered a peace treaty so that neither club posts anything about the other - pretty simple - but they refused. Nothing more we can do, we've simply moved on. We still follow our own advice and take the high ground, people even posted public court documents on our forums about the big lawsuit the VCA recently lost after their VOI, we removed it as we want no part in discussion about them. Just needs to end.

This is why we take care in managing our business as best we can, and avoid risks we don't need to take. As a recent example of why we need to be diligent, we even had someone try to derail NVE's doorprize by placing an "anonymous" call to the local police telling them we had an "illegal raffle" happening at NVE... Amazing. They reviewed what we were doing, and actually stood there to be sure every technicality was followed, and of course deemed it legal... It's the world we live in. But at least it demonstrates we pass scrutiny because we do our homework.

So Angleiron, we'd love to, just can't! : )

[AZTVR]

but we stay quiet simply because it's not worth acknowledging.

LOL. Well, looks like not "too" quiet.

As a non-member, it had been nice to have this type of he said, she said being absent from this forum, and letting the other one die out with its own sniffling.
But, it is interesting to have a club officer here bring it back up.

[JonB ~ PartsRack]

............... However, the VOA actually did look into this (both in the past and somewhat recently), and based on extensive research, two different attorneys we hired stated that a raffle cannot be done legally. We even hired folks from different states who specialize in this. They even looked at specific examples of raffles being conducted actively which we provided to them, they looked into it and came back with the same caution. ..... however we can't risk anything with the club over this - we're told it's just not legal regardless of how we may do it.


.......As a recent example of why we need to be diligent, we even had someone try to derail NVE's doorprize by placing an "anonymous" call to the local police telling them we had an "illegal raffle" happening at NVE... Amazing. They reviewed what we were doing, and actually stood there to be sure every technicality was followed, and of course deemed it legal... It's the world we live in. But at least it demonstrates we pass scrutiny because we do our homework.

So Angleiron, we'd love to, just can't! : )

I bought lots of tickets in the old days, but Im glad to see that gaming activities are no longer the backbone of a not-for-profit treasury.

Learning by the mistakes of others, and from ones own mistakes, has turned out to be a good thing here. The attorneys you hired essentially confirmed what you had already learned in 2013, just 3 years ago this month. Happy Anniversary.

Calling the Local Police about an ersatz MI 'door prize' would be a silly call. Might as well call animal control. That first MI event in NVE was tainted by a lot of prior bad-history. And some of the same players. Even Chrysler had reason to worry, and keep a distance. I bet there were several entities concerned enough to take a look to make sure the mold was broken. But you are still "wishing you could!"

[City]

Actually, it was a club member rather than a club officer that brought it up. Without the initial post, you'd have your "quiet".

[Rocket]

You want quiet .... go to the other site ....

Thanks for the clarification on the raffles once again. If there was any way to do one, I'm sure it would be a success and a great way to raise money for a good charity.

[XSnake]

You want quiet .... go to the other site ....

[Coloviper]

To the OPs original request, can we not just overfund the membership (create a Supersnake membership or something) and one of the benefits is the club just happens to give away a new Viper to a Supersnake member free of charge. Doesn't have to be a raffle. Or raise the memberships by $100 and all members get a single equal chance at a VOA edition new Viper to be given away by the club. Surely there are ways around this as opposed to a raffle per say. Just thinking!

As far as the old club, no sense in talking about that. They still send me a birthday card even though I have not been a member for 4 years.

[SmoknTires]

Thanks Colo. We've looked at many variations unfortunately, not much luck.

On the flipside, I'll say this only because I witness this often and it creates some challenges. Doing something to "everyone" (like raising membership dues for a car raffle) would have a hard time flying - as to make a few happy, you'll piss off the majority who may not agree. And since middle ground isn't an option and it has to go one way or the other - it'll polarize folks as the whole group will never agree on one direction.

Making a special member level for a shot at winning a car would indeed at least separate people out and allow people to opt in by will, however, now you'll have a harder time clearing the cost of the car because people can't buy more than one shot at it... you can do the math to see how many people would have to buy a single shot, you'd need well over 65% of the club to do so. And if you let them buy more chances, it's a raffle.

I know it's hard to describe the detail that went into looking at it (and it costs money to get legal representation who will research, and then stand behind, their decision). But certainly welcome someone taking another shot at it. If someone is an attorney, or knows one and wouldn't mind getting deep into the issue, that would be big time welcome.

[Viktimize]

Thanks Colo. We've looked at many variations unfortunately, not much luck.

On the flipside, I'll say this only because I witness this often and it creates some challenges. Doing something to "everyone" (like raising membership dues for a car raffle) would have a hard time flying - as to make a few happy, you'll piss off the majority who may not agree. And since middle ground isn't an option and it has to go one way or the other - it'll polarize folks as the whole group will never agree on one direction.

Making a special member level for a shot at winning a car would indeed at least separate people out and allow people to opt in by will, however, now you'll have a harder time clearing the cost of the car because people can't buy more than one shot at it... you can do the math to see how many people would have to buy a single shot, you'd need well over 65% of the club to do so. And if you let them buy more chances, it's a raffle.

I know it's hard to describe the detail that went into looking at it (and it costs money to get legal representation who will research, and then stand behind, their decision). But certainly welcome someone taking another shot at it. If someone is an attorney, or knows one and wouldn't mind getting deep into the issue, that would be big time welcome.

Not that hard to set up in Canada. Could just have one of the Canada regions register as a non-profit, then get the raffle going. If U.S. member wins the car, then you just leave it up to them to import the car and pay their state taxes. Same as any Canadian member would have to do if they won the car at NVE.

I'm still looking into setting up my own entity to do raffles myself. Buy a new car, drive it for a year, then raffle it off. Just have to print enough tickets to cover cost of the car, as well as the required charity donation, and a bit of fluff for raffle management costs. Then I can drive a brand new supercar every couple years.

[Vprbite]

I'm sure if the club could, it would.

Raising membership prices to pay for it would honk a lot of people off, and I believe you would lose members due to it. Many of those who leave would do so out of principle

I would imagine one of the key issues we have with a raffle would be the interstate thing. Anything involving money and different states gets sticky. Throw in "games of chance", particularly one where someone can effect the odds buy buying more tickets and you have a legal hornets nest.

[1ststrike]

You Don't need a chance in a raffle of a car to be in a great club. Just take advantage of all it has to offer. That's the reward!

[daytonprowler]

You Don't need a chance in a raffle of a car to be in a great club. Just take advantage of all it has to offer. That's the reward!

Bingo!

[fuggles]

fwiw bmwcca holds a huge car raffle every year where they raffle off a half dozen cars or so. i doubt they are doing it illegally.

[ViperTony]

fwiw bmwcca holds a huge car raffle every year where they raffle off a half dozen cars or so. i doubt they are doing it illegally.

BMWCCA has been a legal entity in existence for more than 5 years.

['93 RT/10]

How does the Dream Giveaway keep doing it? You buy tickets, but the money goes to charities. Sounds like a raffle still.

http://dreamgiveaway.com/

[daytonprowler]

Different rules for non-profit charities and non-profit social clubs.

[Viper Girl]

We would have to become a Church to be able to have a raffle... The Holy Rolling Viper Owners Association LMAO


I copied this from the State of WI, but I think all states break down the groups in this manner... Social clubs are excluded under Service

• Religious: An established religious institution or group thereof. If not, additional background information is requested.
• Veteran: An established group of past participants in the United State Armed Forces. If not, additional information is requested.
• Fraternal: An organization with a representative form of government that (1) operates under the lodge system with a ritualistic form of work; (2) is organized to promote the payment of life, sickness, accident or other insurance benefits to its members; or (3) is organized to carry on some worthy civic or service purpose.
• Service: An organization which has, as a minimum, the benefit, the growth and the general welfare of the community as one of its principle purposes. This category includes a labor organization whose jurisdiction is limited to a specific geographical area within the state or political party, except a state committee registered under s. 11.05 and organized exclusively for political purposes under whose name candidates appear on a ballot at any election. This also excludes a trade association or a social club.
• Charitable: An organization will be classed as such if the dominant purpose of its work is for the public good, and the work done for its members is but the means adopted for this purpose. Include registration certificate issued from the State of Wisconsin.
• 501(c)(3): Internal Revenue Service determination letter stating that contributions to your organization are deductible for income tax purposes.

[jwolf]

Porsche Club of America does at least 2 raffles year the always go over there sale numbers and add additional cars. usually 4.
I know the PCA is a lot larger but they are a car club and do raffles legally.
Here are links to the last couple
https://www.pca.org/news/2016-04-05/...s-or-macan-gts
https://www.pca.org/news/2015-10-06/...ra-grand-prize

[SmoknTires]

To try to help provide some more insight into this I'll provide some more detail relative to the struggles (and why some choose to do raffles). I know it's confusing at the armchair, but it's a mess when you get into the detail. I'll also mention that there are many raffles being done that aren't considered legal - you'll get different opinions by different lawyers in fact, as the laws need to get interpreted and you have to weigh your risk both against the possibilities as well as the ramifications. In the case of car clubs (especially one our size) it's a big risk and all of our lawyers said it was technically illegal in several aspects for us to do it. It's also PLAGUED by jurisdiction issues - which gets MUCH more complicated when you create a raffle that crosses state (and gets crazier when you include Canada, Asia, etc...). And one thing ALL lawyers seem agree on, is that there is easily a lot of risk, and definitely subject to whomever may raise an issue, as it's not just subject to the law bringing it to your attention, but an individual taking an issue in a state they live in and then pushing an agenda. And particularly when you have unscrupulous people on the outside who may look to derail a raffle, the risk isn't worth it. Something we've already unfortunately experienced with different endeavors...

In short, the reason we can do a doorpize at an event is because we're providing "free" as a cost of something else, aren't selling the tickets themselves, can't buy multiple chances per person, we don't make a profit (at all), and dealing with a wide variety of legal loopholes which we follow closely to make it safe from all perspectives. I know some outsiders have posted/postured as semantics... but you'll now understand that a free doorpize is indeed very different from a raffle especially from a legal perspective. Direct raffles are considered gambling and are subject to some pretty stringent scrutiny. It also gets even tougher especially when over $600+ in value, when it's online, and when it involves the sale of tickets across state borders. There are also different laws when it comes to the type of non-profit you are (non-profit doesn't = charity), and those rules/laws are again ratcheted up and subject to by federal, state, and local jurisdiction. This makes it a mess to do it completely without risk. A few other highlights:

* Under many state and federal laws you have to be in business (some states 3, other states more)
* You cannot run them regularly... hilariously, "regularly" isn't defined well and subject to how the IRS would apply. But the IRS rules do apply to all states... We were told you could be asking for trouble if you're running a raffle each year, or more often, especially if you're doing it to raise money or keep any of the profit.
* There is also a federal law that weighs the relativity of how "essential" that income is to you. Given the value of our raffle, even one of lesser value, for a club out size it's far more essential (than for much larger entities - like the Porsche club). This is a big sticking point.
* Many laws for non-profits dictate that 100% of the proceeds must be used for charitable purposes (again another way that some raffles are allowed to happen - because they aren't using the money they raise for their club/business)
* Online raffles are subject all the way down county laws... and some states consider them completely illegal. Other states, even if you DON'T draw/host the raffle in their state, consider the SALE of those tickets in their state - illegal.
* There are laws that while they allow the raffle, won't allow cash as the prize. So you can be legal by raffling the car, but then if you don't manage to sell enough tickets and go to a 50/50 prize... you're now illegal there.
* Many places (to avoid fraud) force you to have ownership of what you're raffling, before the raffle begins. You'd have to buy the car and have it. It's also obviously a financial big risk/investment, especially if you don't sell enough tickets.
* Many, many jurisdictions also only allow you to sell to members. So we can't open it up to outsiders as a way to increase ticket sales.
* There are laws around how to can even advertise a raffle in some jurisdictions, holy lord.
* And there's so much more. That was only off the top of my head...

So again, not only have we been told it's illegal - and we easily fit in many of those buckets I mentioned above (and there are other more subtle things I also didn't list), but even if it weren't directly illegal because we fulfill some requirements, all the risks that come with it - make it easily not worth it. And when you're a small club, a mistake like this is a door closer.

The trick is not to find the lawyer who says it's legal. The trick is in doing the research, drawing consensus, and making sure all attorneys agree. On this topic that's EASILY impossible as clearly it's plagued by landmines, interpretation, and of course clearly has challenges you can't overcome. The lawyers answers on this is typically "95% of raffles you see are indeed technically illegal when you do them across state lines, but it all comes down to whether you get caught or if someone decides to push the issue personally". And I'm way too risk averse, and surrounded by too many lawyers in my own family (who we've also talked to), to take on that risk simply to provide a benefit for a percentage of people in the club... Other clubs many not be so careful, or put in enough research, or merely have a lawyer that said they think it's ok. We've brought several of those examples to our lawyers, all of them were deemed illegal or a big risk by them. And yes, there is a very specific area of law that deals particularly with this - and we retained 2 lawyers who practice in this very area, specifically for non-profit social clubs like ours - and we were easily told NO - it's illegal for us to have one (on several levels). So if other clubs want to do it - have at it - it's definitely their prerogative. But that's not the level of risk I'm at all comfortable with, and I think many (if not all) in our club would agree. We're also financially self funding through club memberships and activities, so we aren't in a position to need a raffle to survive. So the motivation to take on risk for that reasons, also isn't there.

Hope that explains in more detail. Wish we could do one, but we've done our homework... trust me! : )

[Coloviper]

Thanks Alex, it helps. But I still want a free new GEN V.