Insulated Air Box - Phase 2

**Jack B** · 12-29-2013

1. I installed an air deflector plate that goes between the air box and the radiator air stream. The plate will keep the direct hot air off of the cold air box. The plate has fluted edges on the bottom side which should push the air to the outside and take advantage of the hood openings, in addition, the hot air will be deflected away from the engine.

2. When I insulated the air box the passenger side valve cover breather attachment to the box was capped. The breather on the drivers side valve cover is 1/2 of the PCV system. In theory the the breather supplies filtered air from the air box to the crankcase. The problem with this scheme on most cars is that at WOT the PCV valve (passenger side) does not always have the capacity to vent the crankcase, in affect, the breather (drivers side) now becomes a second vent (not breather) and the oil vapor from the crankcase can be ingested by the engine thru the air box.

Secondly, the rerouting was also done to keep the hot crankcase air from heating up the air box and IAT sensor when the engine was shut off. The pictures below shows the breather hose being rerouted to a mini-catch can mounted on the engine side of the wheel well liner.

Catch Can - Valve Cover Breather G5.jpg Radiator Deflector Plate-Bold Air Box G5.jpg Radiator Deflectror Plate G5.jpg Valve Cover Breather ReRoute G5.jpg

**Nine Ball** · 12-30-2013

I like the shroud, and bet just that alone would work well on a non-insulated box. Or at least it would greatly delay the heat soak from the fan wash.

**01sapphirebob** · 12-30-2013

Great work Jack!

**ViperGeorge** · 12-30-2013

Originally Posted by Jack B

1. I installed an air deflector plate that goes between the air box and the radiator air stream. The plate will keep the direct hot air off of the cold air box. The plate has fluted edges on the bottom side which should push the air to the outside and take advantage of the hood openings, in addition, the hot air will be deflected away from the engine.

2. When I insulated the air box the passenger side valve cover breather attachment to the box was capped. The breather on the drivers side valve cover is 1/2 of the PCV system. In theory the the breather supplies filtered air from the air box to the crankcase. The problem with this scheme on most cars is that at WOT the PCV valve (passenger side) does not always have the capacity to vent the crankcase, in affect, the breather (drivers side) now becomes a second vent (not breather) and the oil vapor from the crankcase can be ingested by the engine thru the air box.

Secondly, the rerouting was also done to keep the hot crankcase air from heating up the air box and IAT sensor when the engine was shut off. The pictures below shows the breather hose being rerouted to a mini-catch can mounted on the engine side of the wheel well liner.

Catch Can - Valve Cover Breather G5.jpg Radiator Deflector Plate-Bold Air Box G5.jpg Radiator Deflectror Plate G5.jpg Valve Cover Breather ReRoute G5.jpg

So when will you start mass producing these things so the rest of us lazy guys can use your idea?

**PeerBlock** · 01-01-2014

I think that SRT engineers considered airflow through the engine bay as part of their design process so I wouldn't make changes without having a reasonably good idea of what the effects will be.

From my observation, adding that plate behind the radiator to deflect the air seems like it would create a high pressure bubble of hot air at speed, reducing overall radiator efficiency. The plate itself would heat soak at idle or low speeds, plus, without the deflector you get a "ram air" effect when the car is moving, and even though said air is passing some heat from the radiator, the volume is high enough to offset any negative effects of having the intake air heated.

If your goal is avoid having intake air heated by the radiator, a possible solution could be to buy a compact, high efficiency aluminum racing radiator which is smaller than the stock unit, perhaps by about half in terms of height. This way, you can have full airflow over the radiator which maintains stock cooling efficiency, while using the newly opened space you gain above where the old radiator used to be as a path to duct cool air directly into the intake without having it draw heat from the radiator.

**FLATOUT** · 01-01-2014

Dude these guys are about 100 steps past you lol. We have been working on a solution to this problem for months now.

Also adding a plate to deflect the radiator wash does nothing to affect the Ram Air as its mounted underneath the air box, an area that doesn't pull any airflow into the intake tract.

There is a massive thread by Nineball and or Jack B with lots of great data and the different temp measurements taken on track, at idle, and cruising speeds.

Originally Posted by PeerBlock

I think that SRT engineers considered airflow through the engine bay as part of their design process so I wouldn't make changes without having a reasonably good idea of what the effects will be.

From my observation, adding that plate behind the radiator to deflect the air seems like it would create a high pressure bubble of hot air at speed, reducing overall radiator efficiency. The plate itself would heat soak at idle or low speeds, plus, without the deflector you get a "ram air" effect when the car is moving, and even though said air is passing some heat from the radiator, the volume is high enough to offset any negative effects of having the intake air heated.

If your goal is avoid having intake air heated by the radiator, a possible solution could be to buy a compact, high efficiency aluminum racing radiator which is smaller than the stock unit, perhaps by about half in terms of height. This way, you can have full airflow over the radiator which maintains stock cooling efficiency, while using the newly opened space you gain above where the old radiator used to be as a path to duct cool air directly into the intake without having it draw heat from the radiator.

**Jack B** · 01-01-2014

It is nice to be wanted, the arm chair quarterback has arrived - moderators beware.

Thankfully, this site also has an "Ignore" list. I just added my first unnamed individual to the "Ignore" list.

For information sake, I have a similar plate on my my NA G2, how many 8L NA G2's have turned a 10.91 sec quarter when the DA was 3000. The plate on the G5 follows the contour of the airbox, therefore, changes very little to the overall dynamics. The diff is the air is not blowing directly on the box.

PeerBlock - please go back to the VCA, I hear they are looking for some regional presidents.

Originally Posted by FLATOUT

My thoughts exactly.

**PeerBlock** · 01-01-2014

Originally Posted by FLATOUT

Dude these guys are about 100 steps past you lol. We have been working on a solution to this problem for months now.

Also adding a plate to deflect the radiator wash does nothing to affect the Ram Air as its mounted underneath the air box, an area that doesn't pull any airflow into the intake tract.

There is a massive thread by Nineball and or Jack B with lots of great data and the different temp measurements taken on track, at idle, and cruising speeds.

A solution to what problem, exactly? If having a plate behind the radiator was such a great improvement, why didn't SRT include one? Even if they just went with a cheap plastic deflector it would hardly add to the cost of the car - and apparently it would add great benefit. Did they leave it out just to give us something to do?

Originally Posted by Jack B

Thankfully, this site also has an "Ignore" list. I just added my first unnamed individual to the "Ignore" list.

For information sake, I have a similar plate on my my NA G2, how many 8L NA G2's have turned a 10.91 sec quarter when the DA was 3000. The plate on the G5 follows the contour of the airbox, therefore, changes very little to the overall dynamics. The diff is the air is not blowing directly on the box.

PeerBlock - please go back to the VCA, I hear they are looking for some regional presidents.

Are you seriously attributing a 10 sec quarter mile pass to the inclusion of a plate behind your radiator?

OooooK.

Don't worry, jacky, I'm just here to back as you up seeing as how you've donned the role of armchair thermodynamics engineer. I'm sure that right after you solve the "heat issues" that the viper doesn't have, you'll tackle the other real problem of climate change and melting icecaps using your perpetual motion machine.

I'd really love to hear the reason why SRT put so much engineering effort into the Gen V only to skimp on a deflector plate which you allege improves engine performance without any adverse effects on the engine cooling system.

**ViperSmith** · 01-01-2014

Originally Posted by PeerBlock

A solution to what problem, exactly? If having a plate behind the radiator was such a great improvement, why didn't SRT include one? Even if they just went with a cheap plastic deflector it would hardly add to the cost of the car - and apparently it would add great benefit. Did they leave it out just to give us something to do?

Are you seriously attributing a 10 sec quarter mile pass to the inclusion of a plate behind your radiator?

OooooK.

Don't worry, jacky, I'm just here to back as you up seeing as how you've donned the role of armchair thermodynamics engineer. I'm sure that right after you solve the "heat issues" that the viper doesn't have, you'll tackle the other real problem of climate change and melting icecaps using your perpetual motion machine.

I'd really love to hear the reason why SRT put so much engineering effort into the Gen V only to skimp on a deflector plate which you allege improves engine performance without any adverse effects on the engine cooling system.

Yeah, I am sure SRT prefers the IAT to be 40 degrees above outside temp when sitting still.

Why don't you read the other thread to get some back story.

It is obviously something SRT missed, they admitted as much.

**ViperSmith** · 01-01-2014

Jack, I sent you a private message.

**FLATOUT** · 01-01-2014

Peer I mentioned the other thread so that you would go read it before posting again, it doesn't sound like you read it.

**PeerBlock** · 01-01-2014

Originally Posted by ViperSmith

Yeah, I am sure SRT prefers the IAT to be 40 degrees above outside temp when sitting still.

Why don't you read the other thread to get some back story.

It is obviously something SRT missed, they admitted as much.

I'm not sure what you think they missed. Sitting and idling is not what most people do with their Vipers...and the moment you start moving the IAT issue effectively vanishes.

If the car is not working as designed per spec, then it should be construed as a mechanical defect which should be addressed by SRT themselves and repaired under warranty. As a customer I would expect to receive a notification regarding a TSB for having this "issue" fixed. I haven't received such a notice yet so apparently SRT is still in denial or it's not a real problem.

Originally Posted by FLATOUT

Peer I mentioned the other thread so that you would go read it before posting again, it doesn't sound like you read it.

It sounds like you did read it so do me a solid and give me the readers' digest version of it.

**Nine Ball** · 01-02-2014

Originally Posted by PeerBlock

I'm not sure what you think they missed. Sitting and idling is not what most people do with their Vipers...and the moment you start moving the IAT issue effectively vanishes.

If the car is not working as designed per spec, then it should be construed as a mechanical defect which should be addressed by SRT themselves and repaired under warranty. As a customer I would expect to receive a notification regarding a TSB for having this "issue" fixed. I haven't received such a notice yet so apparently SRT is still in denial or it's not a real problem.

I actually have been discussing this with SRT. You can go test this in your driveway, here is the thread that these topics stem from. http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/463-Gen-5-missing-power-mystery-found

Maybe try and be a little less offensive in 2014? Jack is trying to help, and we could do without the drama.

Tony

**Jack B** · 01-02-2014

Lastly, an answer to Peerblock's earlier post. Yes I am an engineer and yes I have accreditation's in a field that uses heat transfer theory.

Originally Posted by Nine Ball

I actually have been discussing this with SRT. You can go test this in your driveway, here is the thread that these topics stem from. http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/463-Gen-5-missing-power-mystery-found

Maybe try and be a little less offensive in 2014? Jack is trying to help, and we could do without the drama.

Tony

**PeerBlock** · 01-02-2014

Originally Posted by Nine Ball

I actually have been discussing this with SRT. You can go test this in your driveway, here is the thread that these topics stem from. http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/463-Gen-5-missing-power-mystery-found

Maybe try and be a little less offensive in 2014? Jack is trying to help, and we could do without the drama.

Tony

TL;DR

The IAT reads higher temps than ambient while after the car is idles for ~20 mins, which can cause the ECU to pull timing and reduce performance. Solution - don't idle your car for 20 minutes?

But seriously, if this is a real thing then SRT needs to step up, issue a TSB and fix it...and the fix must not be something as ridiculous as wrapping your engine bay with reflective foil that makes it look like a patchwork time machine out of an 80s movie.

If the sensor is getting heat soaked, which seems to be the case, then the non-ghetto solution might be to add another sensor that is located closer to the exterior of the car, away from any heat source and not in the engine bay so that it reads the actual ambient air temp. The ECU would then need to be updated to compare the temperature of the external sensor with the IAT, and then compensate for the IAT sensor's heat-soaked readings accordingly if there is a large discrepancy.

Another way of looking at this is a test of skill - the Viper starts out fast but gradually slows down, forcing you to drive better to win races. It's like leveling up in a video game - the higher level gets more difficult, so even a boring oval track can suddenly become a circle of challenge.

Originally Posted by Jack B

Yes I am an engineer and yes I have accreditation's in a field that uses heat transfer theory.

**Voice of Reason** · 01-02-2014

[QUOTE=PeerBlock;19258]TL;DR

The IAT reads higher temps than ambient while after the car is idles for ~20 mins, which can cause the ECU to pull timing and reduce performance. Solution - don't idle your car for 20 minutes?

But seriously, if this is a real thing then SRT needs to step up, issue a TSB and fix it...and the fix must not be something as ridiculous as wrapping your engine bay with reflective foil that makes it look like a patchwork time machine out of an 80s movie.

If the sensor is getting heat soaked, which seems to be the case, then the non-ghetto solution might be to add another sensor that is located closer to the exterior of the car, away from any heat source and not in the engine bay so that it reads the actual ambient air temp. The ECU would then need to be updated to compare the temperature of the external sensor with the IAT, and then compensate for the IAT sensor's heat-soaked readings accordingly if there is a large discrepancy.

Another way of looking at this is a test of skill - the Viper starts out fast but gradually slows down, forcing you to drive better to win races. It's like leveling up in a video game - the higher level gets more difficult, so even a boring oval track can suddenly become a circle of challenge.

Cliffs? GFY;DR

**whitebeard** · 01-02-2014

I seem to be repeating myself, but since it seems we need a parrot to keep things in check...

This is not the Alley or AG. Please refrain from antagonistic and intentional smack.

We are not VCA either, no swinging the wand either.

Please keep threads on track and to the point. Thank you.

Think of mods as the crew from the movie RoadHouse (Yea I went there and I am cringing in utter disgust). We are all coolers. You have fun, you share laughs and information. Be nice above all. Be nice till it is time not to be nice. All we want to do is help the barkeeps fill the bar and sweep the floor if needed.

**Jack B** · 01-02-2014

Originally Posted by whitebeard

I seem to be repeating myself, but since it seems we need a parrot to keep things in check...

This is not the Alley or AG. Please refrain from antagonistic and intentional smack.

We are not VCA either, no swinging the wand either.

Please keep threads on track and to the point. Thank you.

Think of mods as the crew from the movie RoadHouse (Yea I went there and I am cringing in utter disgust). We are all coolers. You have fun, you share laughs and information. Be nice above all. Be nice till it is time not to be nice. All we want to do is help the barkeeps fill the bar and sweep the floor if needed.

Editing for content

**FLATOUT** · 01-02-2014

Agree 100%

Excellent post Jack.

**ViperSmith** · 01-02-2014

Gotta agree with Jack.

I am a total noob, but I know what I don't know

**ViperTony** · 01-02-2014

As with your numerous DIY contributions to the Viper community over the years your assessment above is detailed, scientific and backed up by data. Well done. Please continue with the topic of the thread. You have the support of your Viper brothers and sisters. Keep up the great work.

**Space Truckin** · 01-02-2014

Originally Posted by vipertony

as with your numerous diy contributions to the viper community over the years your assessment above is detailed, scientific and backed up by data. Well done. Please continue with the topic of the thread. You have the support of your viper brothers and sisters. Keep up the great work.

^^^what he said^^^ x2