Insulated Air Box - Phase 2

[I Bin Therbefor]

DOES ANYONE KNOW IF A SRT Viper GT3-R HOOD WILL FIT? SHOULD HANDLE THE AIR FLOW PROBLEM FOR COOLING. FORGIVE THE CAPS, I'M NOT YELLING, JUST STUCK.

[SmoknTires]

So we're doing the bidding of the loudest whiners and calling it a "majority vote"? Great idea, fuhrer. While we're at it, let's just vote in $200K per month salaries for the moderators for the tough work they do in deleting posts they don't like while allowing other "offending" posts to persist. I'm sure they'd all agree to that if it were put to ballot.

After getting all the VCA and VOA email spam I was under the impression that the VOA was started to get away from the whiny little nobody's who think they dictate "the way it's gonna be" and throw a tantrum if things are not the way they want. Such whiny people should not be driving vipers in the first place - that's what porsches are for.

PeerBlock... We made a commitment that the past censorship we experienced with the past club would not continue - and it hasn't. However, at the very least, our moderators do make sure people are civil to each other and not this disrespectful. Things have been overwhelmingly positive here, and that's how we want it to stay. There are no majority whiners that I'm relying one - using my own judgment - and after reading this thread - you're rough. Let's ease it up please. Less anger.

The mods have a tough job, and in the VOA we have decided not to make them anonymous. They spend hours sifting through this type of stuff. I don't want their jobs made harder, they are not the enemy.

And if there are posts you feel need to be considered due to content, let us know. I'll guarantee they're looked at personally. I'll be the final judge, and you can blame me if you're not satisfied. So let's make more nicey, nice please.

[Revolution]

Like the way the ideas are coming in on this problem, going to try some solutions myself! On a side not I can't find the thread but what are the effects of removing the screen on the Gen 4 hoods, from the vents both in cooling and aerodynamics?

[FLATOUT]

Edit.

[QUOTE=PeerBlock;19706]You gotta admit that it's pretty funny how the moment anyone challenges the idea that the "IAT in the viper is broken and it's up to Jacky B to fix it", the thread degenerates into a trollfest (entirely initiated and perpetuated by Jacky B and his lovers).

I'd say that pretty much proves the ignorance of certain viper owners. Jacky likes to make it seem like he's doing something great when in reality he's making up a problem and then pretending to offer a solution...and there are just enough mouth-breathers who buy into it. Stick a thermometer on there and suddenly he's a "scientist"...lolol And you people can vote...that's the scary + sad part...

Now tell me, are any of you REALLY going to cover your $100K+ viper with ghetto foil wrap to solve a non-existent problem? REALLY? Are any of you actually considering this "mod"? No, it's a safe bet that nobody is going to do this, but if you are not questioning a thread started by a guy who claims to be an engineer yet doesn't know what a transaxle is, and thinks the viper is a drag car, you should go ahead and slather some reflective silver paint all over your car to "fight the heat problems", that way your car won't overheat when you're running away from big foot or an errant UFO.

[FLATOUT]

Like the way the ideas are coming on this problem going to try some solutions myself! On a side not I can't find the thread but what are the effects of removing the screen on the Gen 4 hoods, from the vents both in cooling and aerodynamics?

The X's don't run them and I know that they do retain some heat. I removed mine last week after talking with Cody Whitehead about his experience in the 2010 Viper Cup in his X. He also had them removed in his street ACR.

[Revolution]

The X's don't run them and I know that they do retain some heat. I removed mine last week after talking with Cody Whitehead about his experience in the 2010 Viper Cup in his X. He also had them removed in his street ACR.

Any pics?

[FLATOUT]

Any pics?

I'll try and grab some tonight only junk cell phone pics right now.

[ACRucrazy]

From my understanding removing the screens not only help with cooling but also reduces lift on the front end like mentioned because relieving more of the trapped air under the hood.

[Revolution]

Thanks I would like to see how it looks, and also what type of tool did you use to remove them?

[ACRucrazy]

They are just pressed in with small plastic push pins. A panel popper or similar tool should remove the pins and the vent falls right out.

[FLATOUT]

Thanks I would like to see how it looks, and also what type of tool did you use to remove them?

Any local auto parts store, they make a small pry for interior and plastic fasteners. Wrap it in blue painters tape to keep from scratching any paint.

Thread hijack over.

[whitebeard]

http://www.matcotools.com/catalog/pr...EL-CLIP-PLIER/

I've used these on panels before and they work well, you need to use blue painters tape so as to not scratch paint (if needed). Because they are pliers frame based, you don't need to use the plastic as a fulcrum to remove. Just not sure how much room is there by the air box.

[Voice of Reason]

You gotta admit that it's pretty funny how the moment anyone challenges the idea that the "IAT in the viper is broken and it's up to Jacky B to fix it", the thread degenerates into a trollfest (entirely initiated and perpetuated by Jacky B and his lovers).

I'd say that pretty much proves the ignorance of certain viper owners. Jacky likes to make it seem like he's doing something great when in reality he's making up a problem and then pretending to offer a solution...and there are just enough mouth-breathers who buy into it. Stick a thermometer on there and suddenly he's a "scientist"...lolol And you people can vote...that's the scary + sad part...

Now tell me, are any of you REALLY going to cover your $100K+ viper with ghetto foil wrap to solve a non-existent problem? REALLY? Are any of you actually considering this "mod"? No, it's a safe bet that nobody is going to do this, but if you are not questioning a thread started by a guy who claims to be an engineer yet doesn't know what a transaxle is, and thinks the viper is a drag car, you should go ahead and slather some reflective silver paint all over your car to "fight the heat problems", that way your car won't overheat when you're running away from big foot or

Instead of rolling in here being a know it all why don't you read the half dozen threads we've already had on this topic, bring yourself up to speed on how this isn't an imagined issue or something created by Jack so he can learn us on thermal properties, and then contribute to the solution. If you cannot do this then any further of your posts on this topic are simply trolling, something I and many others simply have no tolerance for. Contribute or leave.

[PeerBlock]

Let's ease it up please. Less anger.

The mods have a tough job, and in the VOA we have decided not to make them anonymous. They spend hours sifting through this type of stuff. I don't want their jobs made harder, they are not the enemy.

And if there are posts you feel need to be considered due to content, let us know. I'll guarantee they're looked at personally. I'll be the final judge, and you can blame me if you're not satisfied. So let's make more nicey, nice please.

I'm not angry at or about anything - just skeptical. And aside from blatant spam or trolling I'm not going to be tattling on other members' posts just because I don't like what they say. No problem with the mods either, but I think the phrase "personal attack" needs to have its definition tightened up.

Instead of rolling in here being a know it all why don't you read the half dozen threads we've already had on this topic, bring yourself up to speed on how this isn't an imagined issue or something created by Jack so he can learn us on thermal properties, and then contribute to the solution. If you cannot do this then any further of your posts on this topic are simply trolling, something I and many others simply have no tolerance for. Contribute or leave.

Whoa broooo, I'm not "rolling in" anywhere. I've been around for a while, probably longer than you, and I keep hearing about these dozens of threads as if that adds legitimacy.

Let's do some math, with numbers

An internal combustion engine has a thermal efficiency around 60% on the high side, meaning that 40% of the fuel that is burnt escapes as heat (while some is also lost as friction, which becomes heat).

Let's assume the Viper's engine is producing 640 BHP @ 60% efficiency, we can infer that it would be producing 1,067 HP @ a theoretical 100% efficiency. That means no friction losses and 100% of the heat from combustion converts to mechanical power.

Knowing this, you can subtract 640 from 1,067 to end up with 427. What is 427? Well, that is an approximation of the HP that is radiated (lossed) as heat due to the engine only operating at 60% efficiency. In terms of heat, 1 horsepower equals 2,545 BTU/hr of heat, so 427 multiplied by 2,545 is 1,086,715 BTU/hr of heat.

Divide that by 60 and you'll have BTU per minute, which is 18,112 BTU/min. THAT IS A LOT OF HEAT BRO. A lot more than my BBQ and my viper doesn't grill steaks!

Of course, that is only at peak power levels. At idle, the engine is not producing 640 HP and is also not radiating 1.08M BTU/hr of heat...but it is going to be producing a lot more heat than a typical car would and when it's not moving this heat has nowhere to go so a lot of it stays trapped under the hood. This is not an unusual thing for high performance cars, I might add.

So the point here is that a big motor that's making a lot of power is going to generate a lot of heat, and there is a limit to the rate at which it can dissipate this heat. It's not a "problem SRT missed" it's just a condition of having a powerful car with a huge engine and a relatively compact body. I don't really think most people on here appreciate how much power 640 HP actually is....this isn't some honda econo wagon.

I really get the impression that people who bought their Gen 5s then come on here and look for things to nitpick rather than enjoying their car. It's winter so some of us aren't driving their Vipers, but that's why the possibility of having multiple hobbies exists.

[FLATOUT]

You still need to read the other thread.

We are and have been addressing pulled timing and power loss do to radiator wash directly hitting the IAT sensor housings causing a significant rise in IAT's.

You think it's pointless to drag race a Viper, so be it, but some members on here really enjoy it and this is a problem for owners that enjoy their car in that venue.

Also I know that you are new to Vipers and only have limited experience with a Gen V Viper, but this not a new issue. If you study some of the cars in the Viper Cup series you will notice heat shielding, block off plates, and other remedies that were devised in this same fashion.

I'm not angry at or about anything - just skeptical. And aside from blatant spam or trolling I'm not going to be tattling on other members' posts just because I don't like what they say. No problem with the mods either, but I think the phrase "personal attack" needs to have its definition tightened up.



Whoa broooo, I'm not "rolling in" anywhere. I've been around for a while, probably longer than you, and I keep hearing about these dozens of threads as if that adds legitimacy.

Let's do some math, with numbers even tho Jacky B and FLATOUT are going to consider this a "personal attack"...

An internal combustion engine has a thermal efficiency around 60% on the high side, meaning that 40% of the fuel that is burnt escapes as heat (while some is also lost as friction, which becomes heat).

Let's assume the Viper's engine is producing 640 BHP @ 60% efficiency, we can infer that it would be producing 1,067 HP @ a theoretical 100% efficiency. That means no friction losses and 100% of the heat from combustion converts to mechanical power.

Knowing this, you can subtract 640 from 1,067 to end up with 427. What is 427? Well, that is an approximation of the HP that is radiated (lossed) as heat due to the engine only operating at 60% efficiency. In terms of heat, 1 horsepower equals 2,545 BTU/hr of heat, so 427 multiplied by 2,545 is 1,086,715 BTU/hr of heat.

Divide that by 60 and you'll have BTU per minute, which is 18,112 BTU/min. THAT IS A LOT OF HEAT BRO. A lot more than my BBQ and my viper doesn't grill steaks!

Of course, that is only at peak power levels. At idle, the engine is not producing 640 HP and is also not radiating 1.08M BTU/hr of heat...but it is going to be producing a lot more heat than a typical car would and when it's not moving this heat has nowhere to go so a lot of it stays trapped under the hood. This is not an unusual thing for high performance cars, I might add.

So the point here is that a big motor that's making a lot of power is going to generate a lot of heat, and there is a limit to the rate at which it can dissipate this heat. It's not a "problem SRT missed" it's just a condition of having a powerful car with a huge engine and a relatively compact body. I don't really think most people on here appreciate how much power 640 HP actually is....this isn't some honda econo wagon.

I really get the impression that people who bought their Gen 5s then come on here and look for things to nitpick rather than enjoying their car. It's winter so some of us aren't driving their Vipers, but that's why the possibility of having multiple hobbies exists.

[mnc2886]

I'm not angry at or about anything - just skeptical. And aside from blatant spam or trolling I'm not going to be tattling on other members' posts just because I don't like what they say. No problem with the mods either, but I think the phrase "personal attack" needs to have its definition tightened up.



Whoa broooo, I'm not "rolling in" anywhere. I've been around for a while, probably longer than you, and I keep hearing about these dozens of threads as if that adds legitimacy.

Let's do some math, with numbers even tho Jacky B and FLATOUT are going to consider this a "personal attack"...

An internal combustion engine has a thermal efficiency around 60% on the high side, meaning that 40% of the fuel that is burnt escapes as heat (while some is also lost as friction, which becomes heat).

Let's assume the Viper's engine is producing 640 BHP @ 60% efficiency, we can infer that it would be producing 1,067 HP @ a theoretical 100% efficiency. That means no friction losses and 100% of the heat from combustion converts to mechanical power.

Knowing this, you can subtract 640 from 1,067 to end up with 427. What is 427? Well, that is an approximation of the HP that is radiated (lossed) as heat due to the engine only operating at 60% efficiency. In terms of heat, 1 horsepower equals 2,545 BTU/hr of heat, so 427 multiplied by 2,545 is 1,086,715 BTU/hr of heat.

Divide that by 60 and you'll have BTU per minute, which is 18,112 BTU/min. THAT IS A LOT OF HEAT BRO. A lot more than my BBQ and my viper doesn't grill steaks!

Of course, that is only at peak power levels. At idle, the engine is not producing 640 HP and is also not radiating 1.08M BTU/hr of heat...but it is going to be producing a lot more heat than a typical car would and when it's not moving this heat has nowhere to go so a lot of it stays trapped under the hood. This is not an unusual thing for high performance cars, I might add.

So the point here is that a big motor that's making a lot of power is going to generate a lot of heat, and there is a limit to the rate at which it can dissipate this heat. It's not a "problem SRT missed" it's just a condition of having a powerful car with a huge engine and a relatively compact body. I don't really think most people on here appreciate how much power 640 HP actually is....this isn't some honda econo wagon.

I really get the impression that people who bought their Gen 5s then come on here and look for things to nitpick rather than enjoying their car. It's winter so some of us aren't driving their Vipers, but that's why the possibility of having multiple hobbies exists.

Wow, there is so much wrong with that post from an engineering and technical standpoint that it hurts. We've seen you now several times argue things to no end, regardless of proof so I won't begin to correct you.

[IndyRon]

Wow, there is so much wrong with that post from an engineering and technical standpoint that it hurts. We've seen you now several times argue things to no end, regardless of proof so I won't begin to correct you. You know what they say; never argue with an idiot because on-lookers can't tell who is who...

I second this. The overall concept isn't wrong...in fact it supports the argument that there is a significant amount of heat that is underhood and that this heat needs to be kept as far from the intake charge as possible. I'm not sure what he's arguing.

You can't quote actual numbers of BTU's without consideration of how and where the heat is lost, peerblock. For example, a signficant amount of that wasted heat from combustion is lost/evacuated right out the exhaust. I'm not sure if you have read the post by Nineball regarding the significant loss of performance of his car at the track on a warmer (not hot) day with a loss of at least 6-7mph of trap speed. That equates to close to 100hp. That is unacceptable. These guys are trying to find a way around that. If you are OK with this phenomenon in your car because you don't drag race, why does it bother you so much that they are not?

[Coloviper]

While not fixing the problem, I had an idea hit me that I will throw out there. Has anyone thought of creating another hood from the exact same measurements, molds, look as the original EXCEPT make it out of small honeycomb Aluminum so the entire hood vents the heat out. An exact match hood but made with aluminum that is entirely very small hole aluminum.

Don't think you can make that from Carbon Fiber as it would be way, way too weak as fibers would not had ability to bond to one another but from aluminum with small enough or micro holes, it would look factory from far but not be really noticed until about 5 or 10 feet. Kind of like a light painted carbon panel. Some you can not tell it is carbon fiber until about 12" away. Then you can see the fibers just belie the paint at certain angles.

Just a thought as crazy or impossible it might be! Zero air would be trapped under the hood as well. You would also see underneath the entire hood from certain angles which may or may not be cool to some!

[NI-KA]

While your heading down the road to another type hood... Could a hood be fashioned that works like the "ALMS" Viper hood. That hood "appeared" to exhaust the radiator heat up and out the top of the hood and allowed the intake air charge to come from in front of the radiator. Not sure how heat soak would work with that hood.

Naturally, the problem with changing the hood and the air box configuration is cost. Presently, the insulated air box appears to be the cost effective solution if it proves itself.

[Jack B]

For information purposes, I looked over at the VCA site and searched Peer's history with the site search engine. If the VCA search engine is correct, he started 11 threads in six months and not one was technical. As a matter of fact, From my perpective I would consider most of the topics borderline embarrassing. One of his first original posts after joining the VCA site was on floor mats, the Alley used that post to poke fun at the technical expertise left at the VCA.

If you look at his postings within other people's threads, he started a very personal attack against an individual about five weeks ago, then, no posts for over four weeks - did they ban him for thirty days.

And yes, at one time he told us you have to dyno the viper in 3rd gear because it is a 1:1 ratio. Then he must have posted twenty times trying to prove he was right. Also note, whenever, he is asked for credentials, the response is an attack that gets very personal. Why are we the "whinny bitches", always wrong and the one's that have to "ignore" him.

I do not mean to run this thread in a different direction, but, for me the hate (justifiable) in this thread has ruined it. I will be testing the combination of the insulated "Ghetto" box and the deflector plate today. I am also installing the air/oil separator. I will start a new thread and post the results next week.

If he ruins that thread, there will be no more posts from me - the moderators have to step up to the plate. I fight every day in the work place and do not intend to fight in a place where I try to relax.

It's not him it's us, we all just need to ignore him lol.

[ViperSmith]

I agree 100% with Jack.

Sorry, but this is a forum for user experiences and technical feedback.

Not for someone to pontificate how they think they are correct

If PeerBlock has a better solution - he can start his own thread and post about it there.

[PeerBlock]

We are and have been addressing pulled timing and power loss do to radiator wash directly hitting the IAT sensor housings causing a significant rise in IAT's.

You think it's pointless to drag race a Viper, so be it, but some members on here really enjoy it and this is a problem for owners that enjoy their car in that venue.

Great logic there...

This only matters when using the car to do something it was not designed to do as its primary use - drag "racing". Why doesn't jacky start another thread about the issues the viper faces when driven off road? I'm sure he's going to blame SRT for not giving the viper enough suspension travel or ground clearance...

Wow, there is so much wrong with that post from an engineering and technical standpoint that it hurts. We've seen you now several times argue things to no end, regardless of proof so I won't begin to correct you. You know what they say; never argue with an idiot because on-lookers can't tell who is who...

No there's not. It's simple approximation of why the viper "gets so hot"....but nobody is going to argue with you.

I second this. The overall concept isn't wrong...in fact it supports the argument that there is a significant amount of heat that is underhood and that this heat needs to be kept as far from the intake charge as possible. I'm not sure what he's arguing.

The point is that high performance cars generate high levels of heat, and this is not an issue exclusive to the Gen 5 or even vipers overall. The notion that this IAT thing is a "viper problem" that SRT overlooked when designing the car is false. It's a non-issue when the car is driven as it was designed - on a race track, not a drag strip.

You can't quote actual numbers of BTU's without consideration of how and where the heat is lost, peerblock. For example, a signficant amount of that wasted heat from combustion is lost/evacuated right out the exhaust. I'm not sure if you have read the post by Nineball regarding the significant loss of performance of his car at the track on a warmer (not hot) day with a loss of at least 6-7mph of trap speed. That equates to close to 100hp. That is unacceptable. These guys are trying to find a way around that. If you are OK with this phenomenon in your car because you don't drag race, why does it bother you so much that they are not?

Do you think the point of my post was to explore the minutia of where and how the heat generated by the viper escapes, or was it simply to illustrate a point that the Viper generates A LOT of heat, a lot of which will stay trapped in the engine bay. It doesn't matter if 50% of it goes out with the exhaust because that's still half a million BTU/hr that needs to be removed with a flow of cooler air.

All I have to say is 1:1 3rd gear and everyone should know where is credibility stands on any of these threads.

[mnc2886]

...

No there's not. It's simple approximation of why the viper "gets so hot"....but nobody is going to argue with you.
...

Yes, there is. You fabricated all of your technical input in this thread. No one said the engine doesn't get hot. Don't change the argument to make yourself feel better.

[PeerBlock]

Yes, there is. You fabricated all of your technical input in this thread. No one said the engine doesn't get hot. Don't change the argument to make yourself feel better.

Was I talking about the engine getting hot, or the QUANTITY of heat that it generates relative to other cars in general.

[whitebeard]

Peer:

After carefully deliberating it has been decided by moderators that some form of action is needed. We agreed the words and tone are both off topic and harsh for what we want on the forums. You are being granted a 7 days of cooling of the heels. We warned in prior posts to keep the topic on key and refrain from a personal attack. You still did not. This is a warning to others who responded in almost the same vein. VOA SHALL NOT allow for anyone to be used as a punching bag. Agree to disagree, but there is no need to belittle or get aggressive in tone or timber in what you post.