Possible switch from a 911

[RT SERPENT]

I drive a 2000…. it's always been faster even when it was stock…. but that's cause it's black.
Everyone knows black vipers are faster!
Oh wait…. maybe it's Canadian Vipers… shit… i can't remember.

Discuss.

[06SRTCoupe]

Bill,

The reason the 2000 cars were called creampuffswas, they didn't have ABS either. I get that there were more Gen III's supercharged but that is not the point. It doesn't change the fact that the 96-99 Vipers could consistently handle much more power than any Gen II or III with the hyper pistons. How many Gen III's are rolling around on pump gas and north of 800whp on the stock motor? I have also never heard of a 2000-2002 Viper making more power. It may make more peak HP (although I've never heard of this either); however, I'll bet the curve on an earlier Viper is better due to the cam being a little more aggressive. It's splitting hairs because the two cars are really close but the cam in the later Vipers is not as aggressive. If a 2000 RT ran the best time...congrats...but that doesn't really say much. Just like you mentioned that different dynos have different variables...track location, prep, and weather is more of a variable than any dyno.

To the OP, you can easily DD a Gen II. Just make sure you RESPECT the low end torque...don't be heavy on the pedal until you get used to it. It will bite you if you don't. There are more powerful cars out there with more torque...but their curve is much more linear than a Gen II Viper. Just be careful...especially in the rain. What the other guys said were spot on as far as maintenance/upkeep. Good luck and post some pics when you get it!

[Vprbite]

I love driving my Viper. I have put 16k Miles on it in less than 3 years and it is not my DD. I feel like DD my viper would take some of the fun out of it though. I love that it's always there as an escape if I am in a mood or stressed or whatever. It makes me feel better if I have to go somewhere I'm not excited about like apyet another Dr appt or something like that. So I love putting miles on it. But daily driving it would, to me, take some of the fun out of it. If I had a few of them, I would probably daily drive one of them unless I was doing something where I needed a truck for sure. But only having one, I like that it is not my DD. Of course, just my opinion. Yours may vary greatly.

Also, wasn't the cam changed after 96 (as in 97+ had the less aggressive cam) to give a smoother idle? I could be wrong but that's what I thought.

[Fatboy 18]

Can.t believe all the bickering about what's fastest or more powerful! thread took a slightly different turn on that one!

My car is a 2000 Creampuff and I love it, I'm not ever likely to go Forced induction and the car is fast enough for me What made me look at a later car are the added interior comforts The dash boards on the earlier cars are plain black plastic, on the later Gen IIs they bought in a textured dash. Different window switches, a rear glass hatch release lever next to the Drivers seat, and added satin silver paint to the instrument cluster gauge rings. Silver door handles. 18" Wheels over the 17" wheels.

Small details, which I prefered over the earlier cars.

If you intend to drive the car for any distance they are great, Gearing in the rear diff (stock) runs 307.... example 6th Gear on the highway at 70mph your engine is ticking over at 1,500rpm, 100mph the revs increase to 2000rpm, then the fun starts when you drop it down into 3rd Gear

Some people out there like to swap out the diff rings for faster acceleration and more use of the 6th Gear, But I'm fine with the stock set up

Good luck OP with searching for your new ride

[Bill Pemberton]

Geez, this is gotten a bit hilarious. Stock for Stock, 2000 had a bit more hp than prior models, nothing was said about what might make more power with mods , but again depended on the level of mods. Straight info from the Plant workers, the SRT Engineers, many whom are very good friends with Woodhouse- and buyers of the car were told the same when they got a Plant delivery. Brought up this discussion as a History lesson to reflect how years of rumors, perception can change reality. Was there guys, in the trenches, and only a statement to tell someone looking for a Snake , that both are good, and the 96-99 were not necessarily a better car than the later models. Fatboy lists what a lot of folks found , and why sales got better ( 99 was a low build year ), they wanted many of the improvements as the Viper Team listened to owners and made changes. Appreciate all the passion, but have always felt it was important for folks to know what really occurred 16-20 years ago , not what they have read or come to believe in recent years.

Creampuff was called what it was due to the cast pistons, it had nothing to do with ABS -- that came out a year later and the name was already there.

[ViperRT98]

I will be the only one that will say this....

Keep your 911 vs buying the Viper...

those of us that have purchased the Viper, purchased it for different reasons. I personally like how Raw the Viper is... However you will be sacrificing a lot. All your bells and whistles that your 911 has the Viper doesn't. we have no back seat and your trunk space is much better on an 911.

You have stated you daily drive your 911, there are some of us that daily drive our vipers, majority of them are not... You are going to absolutely hate it in heavy traffic... The car is a lot more expensive in fuel than a 911....

My personal opinion is a Viper makes an awesome weekend toy.. it is by far not the best daily driver.... for the reasons you have listed I would keep the 911... we all love our vipers... but you need to be realistic with yourself on what you're willing to sacrifice to own an American legend a true supercar.... I would just hate for you to buy the Viper because we all love it so much that it just never fit your needs and you will ultimately have buyers remorse... The 911 is a much better daily driver car then the Viper... also the 911 is by no means slow... they are super fast sports cars.....

[AZTVR]

I would just hate for you to buy the Viper because we all love it so much that it just never fit your needs and you will ultimately have buyers remorse... The 911 is a much better daily driver car then the Viper... also the 911 is by no means slow... they are super fast sports cars.....

Personally, I recommend to the OP to buy the Viper if he is a "car guy." You are not getting married to it. If you don't really love it, you don't have to go through a messy divorce. There are no hard feelings when breaking up. If you are interested in experiencing it, go for it! Either you will enjoy the adventure, or you won't. I bet that you will have enough fun to make it worth the ride. If you don't, then you will probably end up being more satisfied that the Porsche fits your desires when you buy the next one.

[06SRTCoupe]

Geez, this is gotten a bit hilarious. Stock for Stock, 2000 had a bit more hp than prior models, nothing was said about what might make more power with mods , but again depended on the level of mods. Straight info from the Plant workers, the SRT Engineers, many whom are very good friends with Woodhouse- and buyers of the car were told the same when they got a Plant delivery. Brought up this discussion as a History lesson to reflect how years of rumors, perception can change reality. Was there guys, in the trenches, and only a statement to tell someone looking for a Snake , that both are good, and the 96-99 were not necessarily a better car than the later models. Fatboy lists what a lot of folks found , and why sales got better ( 99 was a low build year ), they wanted many of the improvements as the Viper Team listened to owners and made changes. Appreciate all the passion, but have always felt it was important for folks to know what really occurred 16-20 years ago , not what they have read or come to believe in recent years.

Creampuff was called what it was due to the cast pistons, it had nothing to do with ABS -- that came out a year later and the name was already there.

I'm well aware that ABS came out in 2001. What I was saying is...I have heard the 2000 Vipers referred to as creampuffs because of it being the first year of cast pistons AND not having ABS. Yes, the main reason is the cast pistons...but, from what I've seen on the forums, the 2000 Vipers are referred to as creampuffs more than the 01/02 cars.

You were also the one that brought up supercharging and how more Gen III's were boosted than Gen II's. I was simply clarifying that the 96-99's engines were much stronger in this application.

That's awesome that you are personal friends with all the engineers who designed/built the Viper. What were the exact readouts of the 2000's vs the 96-99 cars? How about the power band? How different are they? What exactly did the engineers do to the 2000 model year cars (with the smaller cam than the 96-99's) to make them faster? I have not run into one Viper owner that didn't know they all had hyper pistons except for 96-99. Also, the type of material the piston is made of has nothing to do with why the 2000 is faster. It doesn't matter if the 2000 outsold the 1999. It doesn't matter if there were very few initially supercharged. The point is, the 96-99 cars motors are better to supercharge! Sure, if you keep it under 8 psi and your tuner knows what he is doing, then the other motors in the Gen II/III cars might last for a long time...or they might not. I personally know guys who have beat their cars 100's of times at the track with over 1000RWTQ on the stock block. One in particular sprays his Roe car off the line and has over 25000 miles of 10+ psi on his stock motor 1998 RT/10. Show me a bone stock 00-06 car that can do that...

I'm not going to clutter up this thread anymore...

[Bill Pemberton]

Time to move on. You have your opinions and regardless of what I state you will believe what you will. The Creampuff name had absolutely nothing to do with ABS , though, folks were not even aware that ABS would come out the next year.

For the gentleman trying to get into a Viper , you can see the opinions with Snakes are like many with Porsches --- passion often overweighs reality. But a solid Gen II ( 96 -2002 ) will be an enjoyable beast. There are certain things to look for , based on the year, that can be of concerns -- porous oil pans, rims not deemed safe to track, neutral gear rattle, steering and frame recall, side sill corrosion due to electrolysis, leaking shocks on ACRs ( non Koni setups ) , door moldings , suspension boots, and more. Like any machine the cars are getting old and some parts are getting difficult to find or are prohibitive. Feel free to call me and I can go over what may be of concern to you , and recommend you make sure the car has been on a lift and checked underneath. Good luck!

[06SRTCoupe]

You're right Bill...I have my opinions (LOL) based on first hand accounts on the Viper forums for the last 8 years and car shows/dyno days/track days for the last 20. Have a good day.

[Bill Pemberton]

Mine ( opinions) are based on first hand accounts of cars in our shop, cars at Vipers Days, cars in Auburn Hills , racing in SCCA, NASA, or Viper Days for the last 34 years , so the good thing is we both have long term experience behind us -- just happen we differ in them ( opinions ), but life would be boring if we all thought alike. Enjoy the weekend. Going to New Orleans in May???

[plumcrazy]

they were called creampuffs cause of pistons not brakes

[Fatboy 18]

Yep...Pistons.

[06SRTCoupe]

You to Bill. I might try and make it out there in May...haven't been to New Orleans since I watched my Buckeye's get smoked in the National Title game...lol.

Fatboy and Plum, I know the pistons are the real reason they call them creampuffs...I've just seen people refer to the 2000's more and have seen others comment about the non ABS also when throwing that name around...maybe it was just part of the post. Sorry if I came off like a retard. I know we'd all be having more fun with that comment over on the Alley.

[Little Green]

It's funny how threads tend to derail in all forums. It's why I love car guys. They are passionate about their car. Even my particular 911 model(997) please argue about the changes from year to be year.
I am going to have to drive a viper to see if it's what I'm looking for. As I said I love a raw car. With exhaust and suspension work my car is harsher than the typical dd 911. I love it and only wish it could be a little louder.

I also have no misconception that the build quality on an 05 911 if going to be significantly better than a 96-02 viper. I can live with it if the entire package works.

Btw a lot of guys don't DD their 911's as they feel they won't feel special if you do that. I love my car and I know how special it is and I am blessed to be able to drive a cool ass car everyday. I can tell you that I will not own a garage queen and I'm certainly not going to save it for the next guy.
Thanks again for all the input

[LATAMUD]

I will be the only one that will say this....

Keep your 911 vs buying the Viper...

those of us that have purchased the Viper, purchased it for different reasons. I personally like how Raw the Viper is... However you will be sacrificing a lot. All your bells and whistles that your 911 has the Viper doesn't. we have no back seat and your trunk space is much better on an 911.

You have stated you daily drive your 911, there are some of us that daily drive our vipers, majority of them are not... You are going to absolutely hate it in heavy traffic... The car is a lot more expensive in fuel than a 911....

My personal opinion is a Viper makes an awesome weekend toy.. it is by far not the best daily driver.... for the reasons you have listed I would keep the 911... we all love our vipers... but you need to be realistic with yourself on what you're willing to sacrifice to own an American legend a true supercar.... I would just hate for you to buy the Viper because we all love it so much that it just never fit your needs and you will ultimately have buyers remorse... The 911 is a much better daily driver car then the Viper... also the 911 is by no means slow... they are super fast sports cars.....

Gonna have to disagree with you Steven. Coming from the other spectrum, I daily drive my (mostly stock) 97 GTS, AND I also own a stock (low miles) 2005 911 C2. I've put about 9k miles on the 97 in 29 months of owning it but have only been home about 9 of those months. Porsche has about 2k miles put on it since purchasing it 17 months ago. I want to swap in a IMS DOF kit before we do any damage to it, 21k miles for a 10 year old car, I know what you are talking about. It was babied so we can't really enjoy it yet for fear of catastrophic failure. "The trunk" space on the Porsche is less than an RT-10. I can fit 3 maybe 4 paper grocery bags in there. The back seat is a joke, about as funny as the GTR back seat. I doubt anyone has ever sat in the back seat of my 911. A test drive is in order, and there will be the moment he can decide if it'd be buyers remorse before it ever gets to buyers remorse. If you're near Tampa come drive my 97.

The Porsche, although I don't daily drive it I have done a couple weeks straight as a temporary daily, IS a great daily in my opinion. If I didn't have the Vipers I'd daily the crap out of the Porsche, but I bought it for my wife. All around the Porsche feels more agile and more balanced than the Vipers. Although I do feel like the Porsche is somewhat of an overpowered fork lift with that rear engine "pushing". Porsche is quiet and I think that loses some of the attention when at speed, I forget or don't realize how fast I am going sometimes. The Viper communicates, it screams at me. The gearbox on the Porsche is tight, close ratio, can just about drive all gears at any speed, can really stay in 5th/4th coming off the highway when cruising into down from off ramp. The Viper has a wider ratio jumps between gears and 5th/6th are overdrives for highway, shifter is more ratchet although sometimes the shifter cables on the Porsche feel like they bind. Clutch pedal feels about the same. Steering and suspension is tighter on the Porsche. The Viper gets more attention, hands down, you gotta be a people person. I gas up at 0330 on the way to work to avoid the conversations at the pump. Porsche is less likely to lose control in any conditions with traction control (never tried snow with any of the cars). Porsche in mid-heavy rain handled 90 mph on the highway with confidence. The Viper, have to take it easy in he rain.

Day 1 in the Porsche, didn't know how to pop the bonnet with the floor switch, broke the switch, it snapped out. I popped it back in but now I have to lever it funny to make it work. Was cleaning some gummy residue off the radio knobs and then continued down, wiped the fan symbol right off the AC control switch, ended up permanent marker temp fixing that. Porsche has more turning radius than the 97. The in dash phone looks cool but it doesn't work. I imagine it's a long lost service not available for a 2005 anymore, or maybe I need to read the manual. Makes me think of Back to the Future 2 with the Kids and the shooter arcade game, "you have to use your hands?".

I had the 2003 Viper for 2 years before getting the 97. So going from 650 WHP to whatever I'm pumping out of the 97, well its just an easier car to drive than the 03. Day1 97 GTS, it is more raw and more of what I'd like for a true racecar, no ABS, locked up the tires turning out of the neighborhood and getting to that red light too quick on cold tires. Brakes are okay for daily driving but I have to keep my distance. It's not so bad in stop/go traffic, nothing worse than in traffic with the Porsche. Yesterday tried to U-turn the 97 into a 2 lane, had to force the back end around to make it without having to back up to clear the curb. AC in my 97 is like the AC in my buddies 97 Mustang, on a hot day take a while to feel cool and to cool the inside of the car. The clamshell hood has a serious learning curve, learn to close it right the first time and never deviate. I want to swap in the gen3 brakes, there's a reasonably priced adapter to do it, IPSCO. Stereo is okay, I don't listen to it often anyways, 1 DIN stereo takes me back to high school. The Porsche stereo paints music in my brain. You know in the 05 911, that lever on the passenger seat to allow you to fold it forward that's always shaking in your ear? imagine that but like 10 around the car, but you will NEVER know what's making them because you can't reach far enough to feel for loose plastic panels to try and buffer the vibrations while you drive. You will get that nice rumble burble gurgling from the exhaust as you decelerate in gear. You're neighbors will get desensitized to Vipers because you park it in the driveway so much, or when your garage is too full it gets left in the driveway overnight. The Viper family is different from other car communities. We're too small a community that we click. Although I have not met any Porsche folks I seem to get the impression when I'm in the 911 and pass others in their 911 we're just other owners that just happen to have the same car, sort of like two BMWs passing on the road. No sense of camaraderie. I sense the snobs who have the C4S or Turbo911 looking down on me because all I have is a measly watered down C2. Really can't do that in the viper realm, they're all basically the same car. The ACR has better suspension and aero goodies but it's the same damn car. For the Viper, the base models and their top end siblings are not so extremely distant until you get into the non-VIN certified-racecars like the ACR-X and Competition cars.

For 40K you'd be happier with a Gen3 (2003-2006) (with 2006 being first year of that body style coupe) or Gen4 (2008-2010) Viper, especially if you are going to daily drive it. The Gen3 also seems to come cheaper than the Gen2 GTS's probably due to supply and demand. Gen3 has more power, handles better out of the box than a stock Gen2. The ABS has saved me several times on my 03. The seats are more racecar in the Gen3+ Vipers. The Gen2 seats are more comfortable and more daily driver friendly though but you wouldn't want to put Gen2 seats in a Gen3+. The Gen3+ transmission gearing I think is the same as the Gen2. Starting in 2010 has a more performance 5th gear ratio, but 2010 is possibly pushing that 40k budget. Ron&Holley Landis are selling there 2008 Vert for $45k last I checked which is a steal for a gen4, basically Gen3 pricing. Gen4+ will cost more to mod. If you plan to mod the car then Gen2/3 of course. $40k could get you into a supercharged modded Gen3 Viper with a motivated seller.

Autocross, Viper vs Porsche. Tires make the leaps and bounds difference so that variable alone made a huge difference. I have old front tires on the 97, 19/18 wheels, probably 5 years old, I need new tires, got it. The Porsche has some sticky continentals on 19s. The Porsche got more under steer for hard switchback turns than the 97 although I still under steered with the 97.

Also,
pre-99 Viper's don't have power mirrors
stupid things that are nice to have for a DD

For the side mirrors, I haven't posted/completed yet but I'm swapping in side mirrors from a Stealth/3000GT. I'm going to use a Gen3 Viper switch. It's the same mirror except for the base post part needs swapped from the Viper, AND it has power/heated mirror. If I found it before I purchased, the Japanese/European model Mitsu GTO has all that and auto fold in/out motors too which I find convenient for lazy people like me.

[ViperRT98]

Gonna have to disagree with you Steven. Coming from the other spectrum, I daily drive my (mostly stock) 97 GTS, AND I also own a stock (low miles) 2005 911 C2. I've put about 9k miles on the 97 in 29 months of owning it but have only been home about 9 of those months. Porsche has about 2k miles put on it since purchasing it 17 months ago. I want to swap in a IMS DOF kit before we do any damage to it, 21k miles for a 10 year old car, I know what you are talking about. It was babied so we can't really enjoy it yet for fear of catastrophic failure. "The trunk" space on the Porsche is less than an RT-10. I can fit 3 maybe 4 paper grocery bags in there. The back seat is a joke, about as funny as the GTR back seat. I doubt anyone has ever sat in the back seat of my 911. A test drive is in order, and there will be the moment he can decide if it'd be buyers remorse before it ever gets to buyers remorse. If you're near Tampa come drive my 97.

The Porsche, although I don't daily drive it I have done a couple weeks straight as a temporary daily, IS a great daily in my opinion. If I didn't have the Vipers I'd daily the crap out of the Porsche, but I bought it for my wife. All around the Porsche feels more agile and more balanced than the Vipers. Although I do feel like the Porsche is somewhat of an overpowered fork lift with that rear engine "pushing". Porsche is quiet and I think that loses some of the attention when at speed, I forget or don't realize how fast I am going sometimes. The Viper communicates, it screams at me. The gearbox on the Porsche is tight, close ratio, can just about drive all gears at any speed, can really stay in 5th/4th coming off the highway when cruising into down from off ramp. The Viper has a wider ratio jumps between gears and 5th/6th are overdrives for highway, shifter is more ratchet although sometimes the shifter cables on the Porsche feel like they bind. Clutch pedal feels about the same. Steering and suspension is tighter on the Porsche. The Viper gets more attention, hands down, you gotta be a people person. I gas up at 0330 on the way to work to avoid the conversations at the pump. Porsche is less likely to lose control in any conditions with traction control (never tried snow with any of the cars). Porsche in mid-heavy rain handled 90 mph on the highway with confidence. The Viper, have to take it easy in he rain.

Day 1 in the Porsche, didn't know how to pop the bonnet with the floor switch, broke the switch, it snapped out. I popped it back in but now I have to lever it funny to make it work. Was cleaning some gummy residue off the radio knobs and then continued down, wiped the fan symbol right off the AC control switch, ended up permanent marker temp fixing that. Porsche has more turning radius than the 97. The in dash phone looks cool but it doesn't work. I imagine it's a long lost service not available for a 2005 anymore, or maybe I need to read the manual. Makes me think of Back to the Future 2 with the Kids and the shooter arcade game, "you have to use your hands?".

I had the 2003 Viper for 2 years before getting the 97. So going from 650 WHP to whatever I'm pumping out of the 97, well its just an easier car to drive than the 03. Day1 97 GTS, it is more raw and more of what I'd like for a true racecar, no ABS, locked up the tires turning out of the neighborhood and getting to that red light too quick on cold tires. Brakes are okay for daily driving but I have to keep my distance. It's not so bad in stop/go traffic, nothing worse than in traffic with the Porsche. Yesterday tried to U-turn the 97 into a 2 lane, had to force the back end around to make it without having to back up to clear the curb. AC in my 97 is like the AC in my buddies 97 Mustang, on a hot day take a while to feel cool and to cool the inside of the car. The clamshell hood has a serious learning curve, learn to close it right the first time and never deviate. I want to swap in the gen3 brakes, there's a reasonably priced adapter to do it, IPSCO. Stereo is okay, I don't listen to it often anyways, 1 DIN stereo takes me back to high school. The Porsche stereo paints music in my brain. You know in the 05 911, that lever on the passenger seat to allow you to fold it forward that's always shaking in your ear? imagine that but like 10 around the car, but you will NEVER know what's making them because you can't reach far enough to feel for loose plastic panels to try and buffer the vibrations while you drive. You will get that nice rumble burble gurgling from the exhaust as you decelerate in gear. You're neighbors will get desensitized to Vipers because you park it in the driveway so much, or when your garage is too full it gets left in the driveway overnight. The Viper family is different from other car communities. We're too small a community that we click. Although I have not met any Porsche folks I seem to get the impression when I'm in the 911 and pass others in their 911 we're just other owners that just happen to have the same car, sort of like two BMWs passing on the road. No sense of camaraderie. I sense the snobs who have the C4S or Turbo911 looking down on me because all I have is a measly watered down C2. Really can't do that in the viper realm, they're all basically the same car. The ACR has better suspension and aero goodies but it's the same damn car. For the Viper, the base models and their top end siblings are not so extremely distant until you get into the non-VIN certified-racecars like the ACR-X and Competition cars.

For 40K you'd be happier with a Gen3 (2003-2006) (with 2006 being first year of that body style coupe) or Gen4 (2008-2010) Viper, especially if you are going to daily drive it. The Gen3 also seems to come cheaper than the Gen2 GTS's probably due to supply and demand. Gen3 has more power, handles better out of the box than a stock Gen2. The ABS has saved me several times on my 03. The seats are more racecar in the Gen3+ Vipers. The Gen2 seats are more comfortable and more daily driver friendly though but you wouldn't want to put Gen2 seats in a Gen3+. The Gen3+ transmission gearing I think is the same as the Gen2. Starting in 2010 has a more performance 5th gear ratio, but 2010 is possibly pushing that 40k budget. Ron&Holley Landis are selling there 2008 Vert for $45k last I checked which is a steal for a gen4, basically Gen3 pricing. Gen4+ will cost more to mod. If you plan to mod the car then Gen2/3 of course. $40k could get you into a supercharged modded Gen3 Viper with a motivated seller.

Autocross, Viper vs Porsche. Tires make the leaps and bounds difference so that variable alone made a huge difference. I have old front tires on the 97, 19/18 wheels, probably 5 years old, I need new tires, got it. The Porsche has some sticky continentals on 19s. The Porsche got more under steer for hard switchback turns than the 97 although I still under steered with the 97.



For the side mirrors, I haven't posted/completed yet but I'm swapping in side mirrors from a Stealth/3000GT. I'm going to use a Gen3 Viper switch. It's the same mirror except for the base post part needs swapped from the Viper, AND it has power/heated mirror. If I found it before I purchased, the Japanese/European model Mitsu GTO has all that and auto fold in/out motors too which I find convenient for lazy people like me.

Bart I'm confused.... You really feel that the Viper is truly a better daily driver than a Porsche 911? I agree that the Viper gets a lot more attention and it's truly a funner car to own but for daily driving purposes for the average person the Gen2 is just very raw car and I was really surprised when I found out you daily drive yours.... I agree that the gen 3 and Gen 4 would be much better for daily use. However I also agree with what you said about the Viper community... I called Bart to come look at my buddies Hennessey Viper and Within an hour he was over there. You really don't get that with many other communities... I trust what Bart says....

[LATAMUD]

I also have no misconception that the build quality on an 05 911 if going to be significantly better than a 96-02 viper. I can live with it if the entire package works.

Btw a lot of guys don't DD their 911's as they feel they won't feel special if you do that. I love my car and I know how special it is and I am blessed to be able to drive a cool ass car everyday. I can tell you that I will not own a garage queen and I'm certainly not going to save it for the next guy.

Bart I'm confused.... You really feel that the Viper is truly a better daily driver than a Porsche 911? I agree that the Viper gets a lot more attention and it's truly a funner car to own but for daily driving purposes for the average person the Gen2 is just very raw car and I was really surprised when I found out you daily drive yours.... I agree that the gen 3 and Gen 4 would be much better for daily use. However I also agree with what you said about the Viper community... I called Bart to come look at my buddies Hennessey Viper and Within an hour he was over there. You really don't get that with many other communities... I trust what Bart says....

Steven, I didn't say the Viper was a better daily than the 911. Actually I did say I would daily the crap out of the Porsche if it was actually my car and had the Intermediate shaft bearing issue resolved. What I am saying is that the Viper is not as bad a daily as most would think. OP acknowledges Viper build quality is less than the P car. He recognizes that most Porsche owners don't daily Porsches for similar reasons that Viper owners don't daily theirs, yet he dailies his Porsche. From his comments he sounds like me. Life is short and it can end at any moment. I don't want to leave this earth wishing I had driven my Viper more while I still could.

I put +/- 1000 miles on the car every month, rain or shine. I once bought a Honda Civic hybrid that a monthly payment, fuel expenses and insurance altogether was less than the monthly fuel expenses alone of a 1963 daily driver getting 13 mpg. Day after day I drove the Honda and the whole time I'd be wishing I was behind the wheel of a car I OWNED. You can get a well seasoned Gen2 GTS for around the price of a new/slightly used Honda Accord. Which one is your adventure? Cross country trip in the Honda or the Dodge?

Steven, I see your school of thought and respect it. I can accept that something is lost by daily driving the Viper. That "something special" appeal goes away. Worth it. I'm just saying it's not entirely impractical. A low mileage 10 year old Porsche as a daily is a ticking time bomb, so for my case yes the Viper is a better daily than the 911.

[ViperRT98]

Steven, I didn't say the Viper was a better daily than the 911. Actually I did say I would daily the crap out of the Porsche if it was actually my car and had the Intermediate shaft bearing issue resolved. What I am saying is that the Viper is not as bad a daily as most would think. OP acknowledges Viper build quality is less than the P car. He recognizes that most Porsche owners don't daily Porsches for similar reasons that Viper owners don't daily theirs, yet he dailies his Porsche. From his comments he sounds like me. Life is short and it can end at any moment. I don't want to leave this earth wishing I had driven my Viper more while I still could.

I put +/- 1000 miles on the car every month, rain or shine. I once bought a Honda Civic hybrid that a monthly payment, fuel expenses and insurance altogether was less than the monthly fuel expenses alone of a 1963 daily driver getting 13 mpg. Day after day I drove the Honda and the whole time I'd be wishing I was behind the wheel of a car I OWNED. You can get a well seasoned Gen2 GTS for around the price of a new/slightly used Honda Accord. Which one is your adventure? Cross country trip in the Honda or the Dodge?

Steven, I see your school of thought and respect it. I can accept that something is lost by daily driving the Viper. That "something special" appeal goes away. Worth it. I'm just saying it's not entirely impractical. A low mileage 10 year old Porsche as a daily is a ticking time bomb, so for my case yes the Viper is a better daily than the 911.

Gotcha.... Well I know you enjoy your GTS a lot... technically speaking my Viper would be considered a daily driver, since it's the only car I Technically have... however my office is located at my house.... lol

I look forward to seeing you and the rest of the crew in a few weeks.... looking forward to seeing that Gen 3...

[EricMcClellan]

Here is professional pic done a couple of years ago
Attachment 14892

When you get your viper, call me. We'll make you a better poster.

[Sybil TF]

I will be the only one that will say this....

Keep your 911 vs buying the Viper...

.

[RTTTTed]

LOL, Syb!!! Syb for president!

Seriously, I own 2 Vipers. 3 Stealth R/T TTs, 1 IROC R/T Daytona and several old muscle car projects. Oh, and a 1T 550whp Cummins. I love driving my Roe supercharged Viper GTS so much that I bought the fastest street car n Houston - a 1500whp TT GTS for racing. 700whp Street car get 20mpg and street TT Viper get 17mpg. The turbos are too hard to control the hp so I much prefer the supercharged GTS for daily driving or long trips. I love modifying my cars and both have upgrade brakes and stereos. Although I agree will Bill that the creampuffs should have had more hp because the forged pistons lose as much as 40hp whereas the hypereutetic are not actually cast they are quite similar to forged pistons. The 'forged pistons engines' do have a larger overlap camshaft but unless you upgrade your brakes the 2001/2002 are the minimal braking I would require. Porsches outstopped the Viper.

The 96, 97 & 98s came with cast iron exh manifolds (except 98s), some cast wheels but only 17" rims and tires. For those reasons I would buy 2001/2002 as my first choice. However, if you can handle it I would also recommend buying a GTS with 600whp or more that runs perfectly.

[Angel&Sean]

That 930 is gorgeous! brings back memories of posters on my wall as a boy.

And for the record, that last thing I would call a creampuff regardless of pistons, brakes cams, cupholders, whatthefu*kever, is ANYTHING with a V-friggin-10 and no traction control...

[Angel&Sean]

I drive a 2000…. it's always been faster even when it was stock…. but that's cause it's black.
Everyone knows black vipers are faster!
Oh wait…. maybe it's Canadian Vipers… shit… i can't remember.

Discuss.

Its Canadian ones...

[GhostStalker27]

For whatever it's worth the new viper went back to forged pistons. Dan Winkles, Chief Powertrain Engineer of SRT said because customers like to mod these cars they went with the most robust motor possible. That's good enough for me - 99 was the last year of forged internals until gen5, updated gen2 interior, 18" wheels, 708 cam, first year of acr, you could still get silver and blue, what more do you want?...99 ftw! best gen2 viper yee haaa

Reference
https://youtu.be/MdO3EQ2YJ4g?t=3m13s