Possible switch from a 911

[Little Green]

Hey folks,
New here but a long time car guy. I currently own an 05 911. i love my car and it was always a dream to own one. I have modded it to my liking. Dropped a bit, wing, carbon fiber on the inside, LED light upgrades, short shifter kit etc. It is well built and handles like no other but...I have had it now for a while and for some bizzare reason a Gen II GTS coupe in a more subtle color way (grey, black no stripes) is calling my name. I have never driven one. I am not a fan of convertibles so it's definately a coupe for me. I daily drive mine and have a restored 91 Grand Wagoneer (I did the resto work) for winter duties.

Couple of questions.
I do all my own maintenance on my car. Very easy to do. It appears that after reading tons of threads these cars are fairly DIYable. Correct?
My car has been bullet proof besides a shifter cable breaking ($1000 repair at the dealer). How are these cars in particular the Gen II coupes in reliability?
I daily drive mine with all season Continental DWS tires, not in the snow though. I drive 30 minutes each way and stop and go in neighborhood type traffic. My 6 speed is no issue. Is the Viper daily driveable? I don't take long trips so not worried about road trip comfort.

In the 911 world we don't love buying 10 year old low mile cars. They need to be driven and you are better off buying a 50K mile 10 year old car than a 15K mile 10 year old car. It's just the way porsches are. They have to be driven or they become a bit nightmarish. Getting 200K out of a 911 is fairly common. Any input on what age/mileage is ideal.

Figure budget to be around $40 give or take a few K.

For anyone that has come from the 911 world if you have any input that would be great. I searched and found one guy that had one. I am sure there are quite a few ex Vette guys but 911's and vettes are very different. I expect this to be more straight line vs cornering on my 911. I do track occasionally and understand the brake and possible suspension upgrades needed to make the Viper a better performer in those two categories.

Any input would be greatly appreciated. Be brutally honest. If you think it's stupid let me know why. I don't expect german build quality in a 20 year old American muscle car but I would need something that is at least realiable and comfortable enough for DD duties.
Here is a pic of my car just becauseIMG_0334.JPG
Here is professional pic done a couple of years ago
My car final compressed.jpg

[plumcrazy]

its a dodge, dont sweat it. easy to work on and affordable if you do it yourself. they are built pretty good. that price should get you a nice car

you can DD a viper no problem. i put a ton of miles on mine, drove it daily at times and loved it

[Bill Pemberton]

Plum is crazy, but he is crazy correct, easy car to work on. Sent you a PM , because even though I sell these lovely beasts ( had 7 ) , I am also a Porsche DE Instructor and our company also has a Porsche Franchise.

Bill Pemberton
Viper Sales Mgr
2008 Venom Red ACR
402-677-5864

[Viper98912]

I'm sure many will also tell you they'd never DD a Viper. I'm one of those.

The Viper is lots of fun, but with a long throw on a heavy clutch, no bumper clearance at all, a fairly stiff and short suspension, and very little space and outside view, it's a fairly rough car to ride. After a 4 day excursion in my car, loving every minute of it, it was nice to come home and put up the Viper for the next week. Riding around in another high performance sedan that isn't as "rough" is definitely a nice change.

The guy I bought my car from sold me his Viper to buy a 911, just a few years newer than yours. If you send me your email address, I'll have him contact you; perhaps he has a minute to give you his opinion after owning both.

[ACRucrazy]

Porsche guy? That ACR thread on Rennlist is awesome. I love seeing (lurking) all the first time Viper owners praise the car after jumping in on an ACR! 18+? Pages of great press and still going!

Vipers in general are brutes. They are built to blast and easy to work on. 40K budget gets you a nice Gen 2 or 3 convertible.

But since you want a coupe, Gen II it is!

[Luisv]

It's already been said.... They are easy to work on and not immensely complicated. To make a reliable daily there are some things that can be done to avoid headaches. For example, many replace the P/S pulley with aluminum as opposed to the composite unit on there. Like any more exotic cars, keep up on the fluids and maintenance and you will be fine.

I don't daily drive the Viper but I do drive it often. I have put about 25K miles in the 3 and a half years I've had the car. As for comfort, I am 6'3" tall and it's fine. Unless you are much taller, you'll likely be fine.

From a handling point of view, it is a different car. I love the handling on the car and prefer it to the more "ass heavy" (don't mean it in a bad way....just the way I describe the feeling) nature of the Porsche. I have lowered the car slightly (Eibach spring kit) and I love the feel and handling. I've also upgraded the brakes as well and it has been great as well.

If you are in a 911 now.... space is not the car's strong suit so you will be accustomed to that. Don't expect to do three weeks of grocery shopping in the Viper. Beyond that, I would not say is much difference in the day-to-day between the cars from a functionality point of view.

[Vprbite]

I will always love the Gen II coupes and would still have one if it weren't for that damn tree. I wouldn't call it a muscle car though. They are track beasts that are quite streetable. It's not a GT car like an Astin martin. But it's not a muscle car. Yes they are easy to work on. They also get attention everywhere cause you really just don't see them much.

I had an 02 and loved it. If you want to go forced induction, it's better to have forged internals in the pre 99 cars. But I had no desire for that and thought my 02 was the bees knees.

[green]

Nice 911!

[00GTS]

I sold my '87 930 about 4 years ago and picked up my '00 GTS.

VERY different cars. I posted on the Pelican forums in regards to a very similar question to yours a couple of years ago.

Here's what I originally posted:


Good thread. I sold my '87 930 of 6 years about 2 years ago to pick up a low mileage '00 Viper GTS.

I took a lot of heat from the Pelican and Rennlist guys, especially after owning 3 Porsches.

I just wanted a change and always liked the look of the Viper.

Everyone asks me how it compares to the 930! They are very different cars, but the Viper certainly has some good points.

The good:

- My GTS would crush my 930 (and it wasn't stock either) in every performance aspect except for the braking. All torque, all the time
- Tranny (Tremec T-56) much better than the 4-spd 930
- Seats are great
- Usable A/C
- Doesn't leak a drop of.....anything
- Most parts are easy to source.
- Easily upgradeable, and relatively cheap to do so.
- Turns head like no Porsche, except a CGT. This can be a bad point as well!
- Easy to maintain. Engine accessibility is good and well laid out.


The bad:

- You need to be respectful of the torque. No ABS, stability control, traction control, etc.
- Interior quality is sub-par. A lot of cheap plastic.
- Touchy, somewhat numb steering. Quick ratio, power-assist, and 275 rubber will do that.
- Stock exhaust sound is really disappointing.
- Stock brakes are not the best. Easy to lock up the fronts. There are kits to improve the brakes.
- Viper forums don't compare to the Porsche ones!

I think the Viper is very much like an old school Cobra. Big engine, no frills, hard core car.

People like to hate on it because it's a "domestic"....a lowly Dodge, but it really is a fun car to drive, and it's been absolutely reliable in the time that I've owned it.

[PittsburghRT]

I know from having Vipers for about 10 years that they are great car that you will not be disappointed with. But, I have always had the itch for a 911. I have been reading about the history of the 911 and trying to learn about what to look for when buying one. It seems that they are completely different animals, but I think the 911 would be more useful as a fair weather drive than my Viper. I am starting to keep my eye out for a low mile 996 turbo or maybe a 4S if it's the right car.

[Little Green]

I'm on rennlist as well. Great forum but it's a little heresy to speak of a switch. They love vipers for the most part but they don't believe it to be a substitute for a 911.

[Rizzo]

Pretty sure i would not want to DD a Gen2. They are great cars. Easy to work on and bullet proof. Ive had 3 Vipers now. gen 2, 3 and Gen 4 ACR. My favorite looks wise was the Gen 2. I also had a 911 C4. I was very disappointed in the car. Iit was so bland and boring and I sold it quickly but it did make a good DD. After I sold the ACR I bought a Gallardo and still have it. I could never DD it as its a circus act every time you drive it. The Vipers drew attention but nothing like the Lambo. My thoughts are if you are coming from a 911 as a DD you are not going to like a Gen 2 for doing the same. I think it will be too raw of a car for you.

[viper_eddie]

I had a 993 and after selling it I bought a Gen 4 Viper. Sold that and then bought a Gen 2 Viper. Reason why I did that was because I was trying to go through both to see which one I like more. I then sold the Gen 2 to get a Gen 4 or Gen 5 but ended up taking an Italian detour for the time being.

The Gen 2 is a classic, no doubt about it. I really liked it but to be honest, the "modern" feel of the Gen 4 spoiled me and I regretted selling it. Daily driving it won't be a problem if you don't have to parallel park and just drive straight from home-work. However, it takes away the special feeling of the car, just buy a 5k beater and use that. What I really did not like about the Gen 2 after having the Gen 4 and 993 is that it lacked that tighter, more precise feel.

As always, I recommend driving both to see which one you like (Gen 4 doesn't have the classic Viper look but it's still a sweet car to look at and it's a better driver's car). For your price range you can find quite a nice Gen 2 and don't worry about maintenance, it's a Dodge. I also recommend getting a 2001 or 2002 because of the ABS.

[Fatboy 18]

If you are looking for a Gen II GTS see if you can find one with Brake upgrades already done it will save you time and money.


2 piece rotors and a Big Brake kit is the way to go

Biggest difference between a porsche and a Viper here in the UK is you could park the Porsche in a street pretty much anywhere and leave it unattended. The Viper on the other hand, I would not like to leave out of sight! it attracts attention.

[Little Green]

Pretty sure i would not want to DD a Gen2. They are great cars. Easy to work on and bullet proof. Ive had 3 Vipers now. gen 2, 3 and Gen 4 ACR. My favorite looks wise was the Gen 2. I also had a 911 C4. I was very disappointed in the car. Iit was so bland and boring and I sold it quickly but it did make a good DD. After I sold the ACR I bought a Gallardo and still have it. I could never DD it as its a circus act every time you drive it. The Vipers drew attention but nothing like the Lambo. My thoughts are if you are coming from a 911 as a DD you are not going to like a Gen 2 for doing the same. I think it will be too raw of a car for you.

Mine has a custom exhaust and it's relatively loud and the suspension works makes it fairly stiff as well. Are Gen 3/4 that much more civilized?

[Little Green]

I currently daily drive an '00 GTS, have previously daily driven a '99 ACR, '99 C2 (LS1 swap), '00 C2 and '01 TT; the Viper is much less comfortable and less versatile than the 911.

No cruise
No cup holders
Rear hatch is about the size of a C2 front boot
MPG is on par if you're not stuck in stop and go
Clutch feel is slightly lighter than 996 without helper spring
Interior temps are less comfortable
Fun factor blows away any 996/997 non-Turbo/GT2/GT3
Gets more attention
Cheaper to maintain and operate (parts, repair intervals and insurance)
On coilovers, turn-in feel of 996 is outstanding but a Viper on coilovers and sticky tires blows away the 996.


I was up in the air between a 996TT and GTS, owner of the GTS responded to my offer before the 996TT owner did, so I ended up with the Viper.

White out,
Thanks for the input:
To your points: I have never used Cruise control
Rarely use my tiny cup holder. Would like one for the occasional trip to wawa
I average around 12 city in my car. I hit close to redline after complete oil warmup almost every drive so that probably has something to do with it
I rarely ever drive with my windows closed. Even on cold days like today (27 and colder yesterday) I drive with my windows open,I like the sound of the motor. In the summer it's the same, rarely run AC unless I am going to a meeting somewhere.

Good to know on steering inputs etc, that's good to know that it's a strong "feeling" car. I am guessing you all know what that means.

On a separate note
I am not opposed to lightly modified cars. I don't think that properly done mods hurt the car, albeit you never get out what you put in. Since it appears the Suspension, exhaust, short shifter and brake upgrades are fairly standard upgrades a car with those done would be a plus. I will keep looking and need to get into drive one at some point.
Thanks
Caesar

[GhostStalker27]

it's better to have forged internals in the pre 99 cars.

99 had forged internals as well

[Bill Pemberton]

Going to jump in here as I have over the years, as the Forged internal story is always a bit convoluted. Porsche and Corvette also went to the Hypereutectic pistons back then and somehow folks think things changed with future Vipers and other vehicles. Silly part is folks tend to forget that the fastest Gen II was a 2000 Red RT-10 run at Englishtown , and guess what --Hypereutectic pistons. The other History lesson was folks were told when picking up their 2000 vehicles at the Plant , about the increase in power and grunt by the Plant workers. Viper Days even added a point to the class matrix because Skip Thomas was aware of the HP gain ( I know this as I was part of establishing the matrix ), but as Dodge did not want GM to be aware of this , they asked him to cease and desist and the Matrix dropped the point on 2000 Snakes. The funny thing is a 1999 was riddled with rumors of being the slowest Viper ever due to supposed computer changes and the heavy 18 inch rims and tires ( heh, I still think that was a funny situation). To show how things can be changed by perception, not too long into the 2000 build there were guys calling themselves the " Forged Horsemen" who touted the benefits of being better to Supercharge than the new models - 2000 way out sold the 1999 model year , by the way. So here we are years later and old legends and misconceptions still continue , especially when very, very , very few Gen IIs were initially supercharged , but the concept lives on. There are a ton more Supercharged Gen IIIs ( we alone did 250-300 of them ) and curiously , they have cast pistons, ha. Fun part to bring this all up , is it shows how a little imagination, rumors , retelling a story , can change many perceptions and to this day folks call the 2000 a " Creampuff " yet no real difference in 01 or 02, it has been the only year that it seems to be brought up. Nary a comment is made on the Gen IIIs, and to me it is a humorous tale of how something new or not done before turns into a situation , and surprisingly dies out with later machines still having cast pistons. Nuff , said , but always loved the irony that what this all really states is the most vocal often win , or can change impressions - whether right or wrong.

[71firebird400]

Going to jump in here as I have over the years, as the Forged internal story is always a bit convoluted. Porsche and Corvette also went to the Hypereutectic pistons back then and somehow folks think things changed with future Vipers and other vehicles. Silly part is folks tend to forget that the fastest Gen II was a 2000 Red RT-10 run at Englishtown , and guess what --Hypereutectic pistons. The other History lesson was folks were told when picking up their 2000 vehicles at the Plant , about the increase in power and grunt by the Plant workers. Viper Days even added a point to the class matrix because Skip Thomas was aware of the HP gain ( I know this as I was part of establishing the matrix ), but as Dodge did not want GM to be aware of this , they asked him to cease and desist and the Matrix dropped the point on 2000 Snakes. The funny thing is a 1999 was riddled with rumors of being the slowest Viper ever due to supposed computer changes and the heavy 18 inch rims and tires ( heh, I still think that was a funny situation). To show how things can be changed by perception, not too long into the 2000 build there were guys calling themselves the " Forged Horsemen" who touted the benefits of being better to Supercharge than the new models - 2000 way out sold the 1999 model year , by the way. So here we are years later and old legends and misconceptions still continue , especially when very, very , very few Gen IIs were initially supercharged , but the concept lives on. There are a ton more Supercharged Gen IIIs ( we alone did 250-300 of them ) and curiously , they have cast pistons, ha. Fun part to bring this all up , is it shows how a little imagination, rumors , retelling a story , can change many perceptions and to this day folks call the 2000 a " Creampuff " yet no real difference in 01 or 02, it has been the only year that it seems to be brought up. Nary a comment is made on the Gen IIIs, and to me it is a humorous tale of how something new or not done before turns into a situation , and surprisingly dies out with later machines still having cast pistons. Nuff , said , but always loved the irony that what this all really states is the most vocal often win , or can change impressions - whether right or wrong.

I agree that hypereutectic pistons alone are not a valid concern but it's been well documented that the 96-99 produce more RWHP than the 00-02; more than likely due to the camshaft differences. Are you saying that you disagree; and that the 00-02 produces more power than the 96-99? That's an interesting theory, and one I'd like to see backed up by a couple dyno sheets.

[Vprbite]

99 had forged internals as well

I know. I meant to day 99 and earlier. I was unclear. Though he didn't express interest in FI anyway.

[Bill Pemberton]

Dyno sheets can read differently with various machines , temps , humidity and operators. Stating not a rumor , stating a fact as I was at the Plant when buyers were told , and it is not a theory. Racers knew it and it was keep under wraps as there was some intense competition with the Corvette back then. Dodge forced Viper Days to delete the matrix change as they did not want anyone knowing the increase though it was small. As I mentioned the rumors were due to some PCM changes that the 99 was not only the slowest Viper to date , but the heaviest. Whether true or not the issue is how rumors often become fact to some, and changing ideas by suggesting the forged cars were better to Supercharge ( back when no one hardly did it ), shows how perceptions change. We love Supercharging, as noted, but the piston change with Corvette , Porsche , Viper was for less reciprocating mass and consequently more hp,etc.

[71firebird400]

Dyno sheets can read differently with various machines , temps , humidity and operators. Stating not a rumor , stating a fact as I was at the Plant when buyers were told , and it is not a theory. Racers knew it and it was keep under wraps as there was some intense competition with the Corvette back then. Dodge forced Viper Days to delete the matrix change as they did not want anyone knowing the increase though it was small. As I mentioned the rumors were due to some PCM changes that the 99 was not only the slowest Viper to date , but the heaviest. Whether true or not the issue is how rumors often become fact to some, and changing ideas by suggesting the forged cars were better to Supercharge ( back when no one hardly did it ), shows how perceptions change. We love Supercharging, as noted, but the piston change with Corvette , Porsche , Viper was for less reciprocating mass and consequently more hp,etc.

While I recognize the variances dyno's and weather conditions can have on the results it's quite a leap to say the 00-02 is more powerful when the overwhelming trend supports that the earlier cars make more power. While the differences, based on what I've seen, are only ~15-20 RWHP I can't buy into the theory that the later cars are more powerful unless you are defining it some other way (and not by HP).

[GhostStalker27]

I know. I meant to day 99 and earlier. I was unclear. Though he didn't express interest in FI anyway.

I figured, just wanted to clarify

[GhostStalker27]

Dyno sheets can read differently with various machines , temps , humidity and operators. Stating not a rumor , stating a fact as I was at the Plant when buyers were told , and it is not a theory. Racers knew it and it was keep under wraps as there was some intense competition with the Corvette back then. Dodge forced Viper Days to delete the matrix change as they did not want anyone knowing the increase though it was small. As I mentioned the rumors were due to some PCM changes that the 99 was not only the slowest Viper to date , but the heaviest. Whether true or not the issue is how rumors often become fact to some, and changing ideas by suggesting the forged cars were better to Supercharge ( back when no one hardly did it ), shows how perceptions change. We love Supercharging, as noted, but the piston change with Corvette , Porsche , Viper was for less reciprocating mass and consequently more hp,etc.

When you accumulate data over time and with a large number of vipers, and the results are consistent. It's no longer anecdotal evidence. Now if you are arguing that post 99 cars are faster because they are lighter and because of other factors than that's a different story. I wouldn't know, I'd need to see the data. But it's pretty well documented that 96-99 vipers produce better numbers on a dyno stock for stock. Maybe we have a misunderstanding and it's just clarifying what you're saying

[Bill Pemberton]

Far as I am concerned the motors are equal, and the HP difference is slight , but I chose to believe the Dyno numbers I saw in Auburn Hills years ago, and at Arrow. Somehow this has gotten off track for the poor guy who asked a question about drivability, but like arguments whether an air cooled Porsche is better than a water cooled one ( which would start up a crazy discussion just like this accidentally become ) , my intent was nothing more than to bring up the fact that stating a forged Gen II is better is a blanket statement with no real fact. Woodhouse has raced Snakes since 96 and we see over 200+ Snakes through the shop every year --- doubt anyone else has dyno'd as many motors as we have over the years, though most were modified. Just really respect the Engineers at Dodge/SRT as I know the guys kept figuring ways to wring more horsepower out year in and year out. The paragraph is mainly to dispel the silly notion that cropped up as folks did not understand the piston change , and when humans don't understand something , it likely is not as good as prior, and older is better - we are all guilty of that. Suffice to say Dodge did not give the guys a cease and desist order in a racing group ( Viper Days ) because the engine was weak. But enough said ............. Daily driver wise , 2001 and 2002 , with ABS , 18s, lack of neutral gear rattle, are better as a Daily Driver, though for the money he is willing to spend he might want to look into some Gen IIIs.