ViperExchange Heads/Cam car goes 10.5@139

[V10powerr]

good points.

[XSnake]

FYI: just because a member may not understand the concepts, doesn't justify jumping on him. I get it, VE you have a product to sell/market, it's a good product (albeit expensive) but hey an ounce of honey...

ummm, Tony doesn't work for VE.

[Nine Ball]

I agree with most of what you said, however 67 vs 50s are both cold enough. The correction factors on a dyno, assuming same bar conditions, between 50 and 67 are 1.05 and 1.08, respectively, hardly worth talking about (not to mention he was higher than 50). But yes DA makes a big difference when drag racing, traction is also key

FYI: just because a member may not understand the concepts, doesn't justify jumping on him. I get it, VE you have a product to sell/market, it's a good product (albeit expensive) but hey an ounce of honey...

I won't apologize for being blunt. And, I do not work for Viper Exchange. If someone doesn't understand 134 mph traps is a big difference from 139 mph traps, they shouldn't be trying to downplay or insult the performance results. Compliment sandwiches still taste like shit.

[Junkie]

just to back up andy, at the g5 power level, going from a 60ft time of 1.85, down to 1.6, means a reduction of .25 sec x 2.5, or a 56 sec reduction in et. That puts andy at a 9.94.

Next, with a drop in temp of 17 degrees, that could mean a diff in da that migh result in a drop of approx another 1/10 of a sec, putting him at 9.84.

it amazes me that people who have never raced a viper, want us to believe they know so much..

this^

[V10powerr]

Thanks ACR.
I knew I was going to offend someone. seems like people take everything too personally along with egos.
i stated my opinion and mentioned i wanted to understand all options.
Andy did a good job of explaining times (and it helped me better understand this) instead of ranting and then defending his rant.
as far as hp, i still did expect more hp from h/c.

i dont have any horses in the race. i like VE as they truly treat their customers right. i got my ecm from them. i dont get paid to compliment.

my original statement below incase someone is reading more than it:

love the sound and the fact that you guys always put your money where your mouth is, in testing, support customer service.

this is not towards VE but i am a little disappointed in the amount of power added by H/C. i think maybe arrow did this to make sure the car is reliable.
i heard from a close friend that he saw a base viper with headers and catback and maybe ECM do 10.48 on Saturday. same blue color as Andy's at the same track.
IF that is the case, this car should have done better.
this is not meant to hurt feelings, just to better understand all options.

[1ststrike]

Nice runs Andy! Are you running corsa's or drag radials?

[FLATOUT]

I'm not offended at all by your remarks I understand that most people don't understand DA and how it effects performance. The same thing happens with dyno's. Everyone wants all of these shops to immediatly run out and get performance data and we want to do that but we all know that everyone compares all of our data to the quickest and fastest times that they have ever seen run in the most optimal conditions. We'll get plenty more opportunities to run in even better conditions with a better working clutch in the near future I am sure.

Andy



On my car I personally saw a 120rwhp gain over my baseline SAE numbers. That's not a small number but maybe to you it is, everyone has different expectations.

Thanks ACR.
I knew I was going to offend someone. seems like people take everything too personally along with egos.
i stated my opinion and mentioned i wanted to understand all options.
Andy did a good job of explaining times (and it helped me better understand this) instead of ranting and then defending his rant.
as far as hp, i still did expect more hp from h/c.

i dont have any horses in the race. i like VE as they truly treat their customers right. i got my ecm from them. i dont get paid to compliment.

my original statement below incase someone is reading more than it:

love the sound and the fact that you guys always put your money where your mouth is, in testing, support customer service.

this is not towards VE but i am a little disappointed in the amount of power added by H/C. i think maybe arrow did this to make sure the car is reliable.
i heard from a close friend that he saw a base viper with headers and catback and maybe ECM do 10.48 on Saturday. same blue color as Andy's at the same track.
IF that is the case, this car should have done better.
this is not meant to hurt feelings, just to better understand all options.

[FLATOUT]

Nice runs Andy! Are you running corsa's or drag radials?

Appreciate that, I was running a set of Hoosier drag radials out back and CCW skinnies with M&H race masters up front.

[Nine Ball]

Thanks ACR.
I knew I was going to offend someone. seems like people take everything too personally along with egos.

This is where you are wrong. You didn't offend me. You just tried to seem as if you were knowledgeable on the subject, which clearly you are not. I simply replied to educate you. I'm not offended, at all. Your posts read like this:

Great job Andy!
Your car isn't fast enough for the mods.
I love Viper Exchange!

That is a compliment sandwich. Bury the insult between two buns of praise. Still tastes like crap! Don't be bitter when you get called out on it.

[FLATOUT]

DA consists of three variables, Temp, Humidity, and Barometer. There is a big difference when a front moves in with dry high pressure air and the next day when the air has less pressure, higher humidity, and higher temps. If I was the only Viper there then you might have a better argument but we had a bunch of Vipers there, Stock, Bolton, Heads & Cam, and TT. We had a very good cross section of cars that are tracked a lot so we could all tell pretty quick that we didn't have the air from the day before. It is what it is I'll keep working at it and try to put the car in the 9's on the motor, that's all you can do is give it another go.

I agree with most of what you said, however 67 vs 50s are both cold enough. The correction factors on a dyno, assuming same bar conditions, between 50 and 67 are 1.05 and 1.08, respectively, hardly worth talking about (not to mention he was higher than 50). But yes DA makes a big difference when drag racing, traction is also key

FYI: just because a member may not understand the concepts, doesn't justify jumping on him. I get it, VE you have a product to sell/market, it's a good product (albeit expensive) but hey an ounce of honey...

[SinasViperTA]

That sound alone is enough to justify the price

Great work man. Thanks for the post, enjoyed the video

[ACR]

DA consists of three variables, Temp, Humidity, and Barometer. There is a big difference when a front moves in with dry high pressure air and the next day when the air has less pressure, higher humidity, and higher temps. If I was the only Viper there then you might have a better argument but we had a bunch of Vipers there, Stock, Bolton, Heads & Cam, and TT. We had a very good cross section of cars that are tracked a lot so we could all tell pretty quick that we didn't have the air from the day before. It is what it is I'll keep working at it and try to put the car in the 9's on the motor, that's all you can do is give it another go.

I understand DA, hence my comment about how it makes a big difference. When I made my temperature correction comparison I explicitly stated it was with the same barometric conditions.

Nineball don't you feel so proud, enjoy your sandwich

[Jdmuscle]

sound sound sound.. Andy's car sounds out of this world. As he mentioned with a proper clutch that car will def. be in the 9s.

[7TH_SIGN]

Nice job man. Best sounding Gen V Viper imo.

[Jack B]

You missed the big one, Humidity or water vapor in parts of water/1000. the last time I was at the track, the DA went from 1000 to 1800 and the temps and baro were virtually unchanged. Please do not tell me water vapor is part of baro.

I think the point is, Andy started a nice thread and you added nothing, but, you did change its direction. You are still trying to show how much you know and it is not your thread. I think the key is, try being considerate, it is his thread. If I felt as strongly as you do about the HC package, with your knowledge, why not start your own thread. If I were to guess, the majority of the people posting in this thread think the same.

I understand DA, hence my comment about how it makes a big difference. When I made my temperature correction comparison I explicitly stated it was with the same barometric conditions.

Nineball don't you feel so proud, enjoy your sandwich

[Nine Ball]

Density Altitude for the past weekend. Approximate time both cars ran.

Sat Dec 5, 4:30pm, DA -40 ft (134 mph trap)
Sun Dec 6, 1:00pm, DA +437 ft (139 mph trap)

139 is still much faster than 134. Anyone who drag races will understand this. You don't just get lucky and pick up 5 mph, randomly.

[racegate]

139 is still much faster than 134. Anyone who drag races will understand this. You don't just get lucky and pick up 5 mph, randomly.

Especially on an NA car!

I'm a turbo junkie, but I have to say an NA 140mph+ Viper has it's own appeal. Nice work to the VE team.

[ACR]

You missed the big one, Humidity or water vapor in parts of water/1000. the last time I was at the track, the DA went from 1000 to 1800 and the temps and baro were virtually unchanged. Please do not tell me water vapor is part of baro.

I think the point is, Andy started a nice thread and you added nothing, but, you did change its direction. You are still trying to show how much you know and it is not your thread. I think the key is, try being considerate, it is his thread. If I felt as strongly as you do about the HC package, with your knowledge, why not start your own thread. If I were to guess, the majority of the people posting in this thread think the same.

Never stated it has nothing to do with humidity. I fail to understand what is so hard to grasp, ALL things being equal except temperature the correction factor is minor between the temp. Sir sandwich man nine ball had to make a pickle with v10powerr who simply didn't understand things and instead of explaining, acted like a know it all with zero scientific or mathematical data. Oh and for the last time the h/c makes a difference, big one at that.

Density Altitude for the past weekend. Approximate time both cars ran.

Sat Dec 5, 4:30pm, DA -40 ft (134 mph trap)
Sun Dec 6, 1:00pm, DA +437 ft (139 mph trap)

139 is still much faster than 134. Anyone who drag races will understand this. You don't just get lucky and pick up 5 mph, randomly.

Wow you're good at simple math and drawing broad conclusions, kudos. Oops too "blunt"

Say what you want. I'm out of this thread. Congrats to Arrow/VE

[Camfab]

Two things, first off that is one of the best looking Vipers I've ever seen. Second and more importantly, holy poop, 139.9 or basically 140 in a N/A car that I'm assuming runs with stock type reliability is amazing. Very, very impressive, this is going to be a game changer for the Viper world.

[Nine Ball]

Never stated it has nothing to do with humidity. I fail to understand what is so hard to grasp, ALL things being equal except temperature the correction factor is minor between the temp. Sir sandwich man nine ball had to make a pickle with v10powerr who simply didn't understand things and instead of explaining, acted like a know it all with zero scientific or mathematical data. Oh and for the last time the h/c makes a difference, big one at that.

I never stated that it only had to do with temperature. That was your own assumption. I mentioned the temperature as a generalization, a simple way to categorize the two days were a lot different. Did you really think it would be a great idea for me to go into a detailed density altitude discussion with someone, who obviously didn't even understand that ET is traction, and that 134 and 139 aren't even similar? I tried to make it simple to follow along. Maybe if v10powerr had a different approach, and asked questions to educate himself on the differences between the two cars, instead of disparaging Andy's results, this may have been a smoother conversation.

You all should also understand that Andy only recently started working at Viper Exchange. They aren't sponsoring his car and his testing and race days. Andy bought his own car, the parts, and does all of this on his own dime. I think he goes far above and beyond, on the efforts he does, to try and bring this community data on the packages he sells.

[donk_316]

I think a little perspective is needed with the VE/Arrow Heads and cam package that is available.

Its basically an OEM upgrade. Not some shop throwing some parts on a car, selling them and letting you deal with the constant issues, programming updates, adjustments, trips to the dyno and so on.

This upgrade is bullet proof. Build by the guys who built the Viper engine, tuned by the guy who designed and now works for Arrow... What else can you ask for? Yeah ok, they could have squeezed some more power out of it just for bragging rights but they decided to err on the side of caution for reliability and drivability. This kit has more real world miles on it than every other kit out there for the G5.

$15k installed for this is fantastic value. I will do this next winter. Need to break the car in first.

[Simms]

Nice shifts Andy! Car sounds awesome too. I really want to add this package

[Ripper]

You all should also understand that Andy only recently started working at Viper Exchange. They aren't sponsoring his car and his testing and race days. Andy bought his own car, the parts, and does all of this on his own dime. I think he goes far above and beyond, on the efforts he does, to try and bring this community data on the packages he sells.

Bingo! Exactly what needed to be said. Thanks Tony

Props Andy!!! Keep up the great work as there are many of us that really appreciate it

[slowhatch]

I would really like to see the difference in traps between the Race gas tune and the 93 pump tune.

Andy you were on MS109 and the race tune for all the runs right? Didn't swap ECUs?

[FLATOUT]

I would really like to see the difference in traps between the Race gas tune and the 93 pump tune.

Andy you were on MS109 and the race tune for all the runs right? Didn't swap ECUs?

Correct we were testing a race gas ECU this weekend. I planned on swapping the stock heads and cam ecu that I had in the car when you and I ran at Project X but the clutch issues kind of made it all moot so I was just hoping for any clean run I could get.

I brief overview of the race gas ECU I tested this weekend to clear up any confusion. I asked Dick is we could put together a sellable race gas ECU for customers that purchased the Heads/Cam Package from ViperExchange at an additional cost. This would be a non road race ECU something to make a few extra horses on drag race and roll race days. This was our first test of that ECU but during our meeting last week at Arrow we discussed what had been changed in this version and it was brought up that this ECU was mostly addressing thermal timing pull that would affect the car during hotter track days (basically removing some of the high heat fail safes). No timing up top was affected and since we were running in cooler temps on Sunday the ECU wasn't really affecting anything during the runs. If anything runing a mix of 109 and 93 might have even slowed the car down a little compared to the regular 93 ECU. We are going to try a more aggressive timing map on another ECU to see what that one will do and I expect that to be the ECU that might make a bigger difference over the standard ECU.

For those of you that go this route 139+ is totally attainable in good air for the average customer that can drive. Nothing is done to my car that is special or different in anyway to our customer packages, yes these runs were on a different ECU but we are working on making those available as well. I know how to set my car up for different types of racing venues but that's about it, no different than taking your ACR to the track and making aero adjustments.