Post cap for "Enthusiasts"

[Vprbite]

I realize why we don't want to require a vin number to be a member. Many people use this as a resource when shopping for their first Viper and members are more than happy to help. But my question is, at a certain point, when do we ask them to help support the process here. Lest we forget, this is a club. Peope, have the right to have no association with it and never visit the site if they so choose. But how long should we as a club allow someone to use our facilities and our community that we have created and maintain without giving back?

It also seems to me that the people who tend to post the rudest things and often times seem to be less neighborly are the enthousiasts. And what reason do they have to be a little nicer? This isn't their "neighborhood", so to speak.

I also understand that there are people in other parts of the world where they are the only Viper for large distances. Or they may be between Vipers while they build a house or finish helping a child through college or something like that. I absolutely understand. Is there anything wrong with asking them to get an "Associate Membership" or something to that effect? Basically, since hey have no region to have their money given back to, perhaps they shouldn't pay he same as those of us with active regions. But at least something to show they have some skin in the game. Maybe and enthousiast membership goes for 25 per year, more if you want the magazine.

This is a private club, but we allow those who aren't members to come in and get all the perks of being a member like tech help, opinions on modifications, reviews, and a number of other things that paying members put effort and money into doing, but they don't contribute. And many of them act rude in the process. Some of them even calling those of us who do pay "suckers" or "stupid" for paying. That is their opinion and they are entitled to it, but why are they entitled to it right here in our community? I can't think of any other private club where I can walk around and badmouth members and get all the perks of joining without ever contributing any dues.

I feel like if you are searching for a viper and are asking for some current owners help on that (which owners and members tend to incredibly graciously), 50 free posts sounds like plenty. After that, perhaps it's time to pony up and be a part of the club. The enthousiasts who have 400 posts and own Vipers are simply gaming the system and using the platform that we as a group worked hard to put together and keep a good place to be. Why should those of us who pay effectively have to cover their dues to they can be freeloading members?

I don't think this is excluding anyone. I understand not everyone can can have a Viper at every moment. But 25 dollars per year to participate on the forums or paying for the magazine only membership is completely fair in my opinion.

Does anyone agree?

[Leslie]

I agree. Should be a cap on posts for enthusiasts. It adds to the value of membership and supporting the site.

[plumcrazy]

disagree completely

[Vprbite]

disagree completely

As is your right. Plum and I know each other and respect each other. I have no problem with you disagreeing.

My concern is not that people must own Vipers. Not at all. I just like knowing that someone has some skin in the game. That they are a member that has an interest in keeping that community a good place because they are a part of it. I often see people withe word "enthousiast" under their name being the most rude. They are enjoying the community that some amazing people built and great people keep a fantastic place to be, without contributing.

[ICPREY]

disagree completely

^^This. It's the internet, maybe give Plum's signature a try if it really bugs you.

[Granger73]

disagree completely

I agree 100% with Plum. Enthusiasts don't really have a lot lot of benefits other than access to the forums. But I think on average their contributions are positive.

[Vprbite]

I agree 100% with Plum. Enthusiasts don't really have a lot lot of benefits other than access to the forums. But I think on average their contributions are positive.

Ya know what, a lot of enthousiasts do contribute good things. I just feel that the less emphasis we put on membership the less special it becomes and I wouldn't hate to see the club go down a road where it became just as bad as other internet forums

Again, this was just a suggestion on my part as a member. It's by no means some kind of decree. Even our president doesn't have that power. So feel free to voice your disagreement or agreement as you wish.

[plumcrazy]

love the idea of more member benefits but i just dont like the feel of an inclusive/elitest forum. IMO the cap would do that. I would think the VOA wants to grow the forum, not force it to shrink. id be worried it would shrink if you did that. Its ok to be offended sometime....

[sparkrn]

What about a rule that you get only so many post per membership? More money in means more "skin" in the game. Like say if you post over 2577 times you pony up another $100 to prove your good intentions.

[Vprbite]

This is America where you aren't allowed to offend anyone anymore.

To me it's not about offending. It's that at 50 posts, I feel one is just taking advantage at that point.

[ViperJeff]

I agree completely.....limited posts

Sorry plum

Us enthusists really don't contribute at all. I 'gave Stretch a complete listing of the VOI9 VIN's for his registry and I did the same for Black Ader and his Vooodoo Registry. I think it would be terrible to have enthusists contribute.

I was even asked recently for aditional Gen V info, but as an enthusist, I'm afraid I won't help as there are other sources

Good Day

[Vprbite]

I agree completely.....limited posts

Sorry plum

Us enthusists really don't contribute at all. I 'gave Stretch a complete listing of the VOI9 VIN's for his registry and I did the same for Black Ader and his Vooodoo Registry. I think it would be terrible to have enthusists contribute.

I was even asked recently for aditional Gen V info, but as an enthusist, I'm afraid I won't help as there are other sources

Good Day

I'm sorry if you took my suggestion personally. It wasn't directed at you or even at any one enthousiast specifically. It was directed at the concept. I'm sorry of it seemed like I was somehow singling you out.

[SlateEd]

I agree completely.....limited posts

Sorry plum

Us enthusists really don't contribute at all. I 'gave Stretch a complete listing of the VOI9 VIN's for his registry and I did the same for Black Ader and his Vooodoo Registry. I think it would be terrible to have enthusists contribute.

I was even asked recently for aditional Gen V info, but as an enthusist, I'm afraid I won't help as there are other sources

Good Day

Hey Jeff - I'm curious to hear why you haven't joined the club. Not trying to stir s#$%, just curious! You obviously DO contribute a lot and feel like you're a valuable member of the community within this forum, so you're opinion would be worth hearing on why not join the VOA?

[ViperJeff]

Hey Jeff - I'm curious to hear why you haven't joined the club. Not trying to stir s#$%, just curious! You obviously DO contribute a lot and feel like you're a valuable member of the community within this forum, so you're opinion would be worth hearing on why not join the VOA?

Simple, I do not own a Viper. Which makes me the true definition of an enthusist. I have a greater passion for the Viper than probably a lot of owners, however, that passion is not an avenue to membership. I'm good with that. I just see posts like this an think how insecure one must be to be worried about any post an enthusist might make. We are not trolls

Good Day

[SlateEd]

Simple, I do not own a Viper. Which makes me the true definition of an enthusist. I have a greater passion for the Viper than probably a lot of owners, however, that passion is not an avenue to membership. I'm good with that. I just see posts like this an think how insecure one must be to be worried about any post an enthusist might make. We are not trolls

Good Day

okay, thanks for the reply!
and FWIW I'm not 'worried' about posts enthusiasts make. (pretty sure you were referring to the OP/thread anyway, just in case) I asked you for input because I value the input.

[ViperJeff]

okay, thanks for the reply!
and FWIW I'm not 'worried' about posts enthusiasts make. (pretty sure you were referring to the OP/thread anyway, just in case) I asked you for input because I value the input.

I don't post much, more reading than anything else.

Sorry, didn't mean to make it appear as if you said something you didn't.

Also, sorry for the intrusion, sometimes I just have to respond publicly. Most of what I do is out of view and in support of all things Viper. Back to just reading

Make it a better day
Jeff

[Mopar'er no car]

Hey Jeff - I'm curious to hear why you haven't joined the club. Not trying to stir s#$%, just curious! You obviously DO contribute a lot and feel like you're a valuable member of the community within this forum, so you're opinion would be worth hearing on why not join the VOA?

Jeff calls the VOA the splinter group, he wont ever become a member..he is right on one thing...He gets involved in all the drama of the viper nation but yet dosent own one...To each his own I guess but I'd feel like a stalker..I am guilty of not signing up yet, I get on the forum every night but can't seem to remember to call the wife during the VOA office bussiness hours. (Submitted my membership online and it kept saying processing)I just hand over the cash, she pays the bills..


The dues are cheap, the way I look at it If i go to 1 event it's more than worth the mamba membership, not to mention the mag.. Now the people, you can't put a price on that. Maybe we could try to involve more non members at events...I know as a ram srt10 owner I was basically treated like a member, I was going to join just after hanging with the ohio folks at the Norwalk event. After sitting in Bruces 06 coupe I didn't have to worry about the associate part...

[v10CodeMonkey]

All that would do is push people from here to the VCA forums where there is no post limit that I know of and they still have people willing to help. Honestly, what is it costing you to have an enthusiast post 1 time or 10,000? Should we start charging more for members that go to VOA funded events too since they get more out of their membership? I personally got 4 magazines out of my past years dues and that is it. Yet I pay as much as everyone else that most likely took advantage of the perks membership had to offer. So I guess you can consider my leftover "skin" as a donation to allow those that didn't pay dues, access to the forums.

[Vprbite]

Obviously people can disagree. And it doesn't make me like or respect anyone less. We are of course allowed different opinions. I suppose I was unclear about something though. By saying that enthousiasts don't contribute, I meant that they don't contribute money wise to the infrastructure. Not that they have nothing to contribute content-wise. I was a bit unclear on that part and for that, I apologize.

As far as spark's suggestion bout paying more for more posts...I thought the idea of membership was access. As club members, we can spend as much time as we would like here. That's one of the things we are paying for that non-memners are not paying for.

If people don't agree, that's fine. This was just a suggestion on my part. I very much like this club and feel protective of it and want to try and keep it what I consider the by far the greatest car forum I have ever seen or been a part of and I believe that is due to the wonderful support and effort from members.

[Chorps]

Disagree. Forum posts are moderated already and people who are not good for the community get warned and banned pretty quick as it is.

[SlateEd]

Vprbite - I agree with the intent but not sure that post limits is the best way to get there.
Locally what I've observed is confusion about what 'membership' is really for... in other words, some people think that 'joining the forum' is the same thing as becoming a VOA member. For someone who lives hundreds of miles away from where most events happen that might feel true (although they're forgetting the magazine and the discounts). For others, they use the forum a few times a year to get some information but they don't absorb enough to even get the idea that there are driving events associated with membership.

I would love to see a little more information required from all new forum members that gets collected and delivered in an organized way to the regional presidents just like the member information. Enthusiasts can contribute tons of valuable stuff, but everyone who uses this space should be willing to acknowledge there is a member-supported organization that provides it. Getting a welcome email from a local president or membership director wouldn't be a burden to an enthusiast, and sending them would be a valuable way for us to say "thanks for signing up for the forum - now please consider joining the club! here's some information about the benefits....." use that message to differentiate which is which.

Gathering that information at sign-up (or retroactively gather it at sign-in) would be a huge help for conversion. Just <Name><Email address> <Year of Viper (or none)> and <Zip Code>

[LATAMUD]

Post limit would be a form of censorship. Ive been on sites trying to respond to questions that have gone unanswered and hit blocks because of some non-vested membership restrictions. Many pros/cons to having an open forum, but I think it's just easier that we regulate ourselves and report inappropriate posts. As mentioned earlier if you personally dislike anyone on this forum you can adjust setting in your profile to ignore certain users. I'm not 100% sure but I do notice some of my responses don't get any reposes from OP in some threads where OP responds to everyone else. I'm being actively or passively ignored. I do it, others do it to me. I try to stay useful but we all will disagree on some things sometimes.

This post limit for enthusiasts also reminds me, in part, of why the VOA exists. A story better left for the history books. I'm on the fence about renewing my membership. Probably will but I could possibly be an enthusiast next month. With a post limit, I'd post less. I'd save my posts for things I need or want rather than answer questions like how to use a turkey baster to bleed a clutch, or explain how to swap a gen4 swingarm/pan onto a gen3. I'll let someone else answer it. I don't post much as it is but I like to think when I do post I'm bringing value to the site. I'm just me but I like to think we have other like minded enthusiast here as well. Ignore the riffraff.

[ViperTony]

There's one constant that comes up over the decade when this topic has been discussed: There will always be internet trolls that are butt-hurt in some form or fashion that try to ruin it for forum members. Not all enthusiasts fall into the butt-hurt category. Most enthusiasts contribute positively to the forums. Membership doesn't eliminate the butt-hurts either. In fact, requiring the butt-hurts to pay a fee entitles them to be an official butt-hurt. The butt-hurt, or the stupid or stupid with an agenda, simply cannot be fixed. It's a waste of time and energy.

The butt-hurts come and go. Feed the trolls and they stick around, ignore them and they vanish. We have site posting policies in effect. Eventually, the stupid will post themselves out of the site by violating policy anyway. They fizzle out over time. It's important to note that this issue is not unique to the VOA. Every car club forum has it's share of butt-hurts. We are not unique in this regard.

What makes us unique is that Vipers are rare. Viper Enthusiasts, and owners in general, don't have access to an abundance of Viper sites to learn about, contribute or obtain help from other Viper owners be it for purchasing a Viper or simply keeping up with the evolution of the Viper. It seems that Viper sales these days, as well as marketing of the Viper, falls heavily on Viper owners and this club spreading word of mouth, events, forum discussions and the like. Personally, I may never have purchased my first Viper if it were not for the forums, specifically the help and guidance I received from Viper owners. I am not alone in this regard. I see potential new members or owners show up to events because they read about them, or were invited, through the forums. The openness of this site, both in how the forum is operated and how the VOA operates, is second to none.

Rather than figuring out how to restrict Enthusiasts on the site, we should be looking for ways to help enthusiasts get into a Viper and experience Viper ownership or membership. Ed has great ideas in this regard. Some Enthusiasts own Vipers and have no desire to join the club but want to be part of the VOA forum and this is perfectly OK.

Dealing with the butt-hurts is a game of attrition: ignore them, they will go away or self-implode. If they don't go away or self-implode then they at least provide comedic relief. It's a win win.

[City]

It's an interesting discussion that IS being considered. However there is a strong consensus against diminishing non-VOA forum members access. Although the discussion internally is still ongoing, there does seem to be a consensus to increase VOA member only areas on the forum; more like the existing Tech Team area which only members can access.

Disagree. Forum posts are moderated already and people who are not good for the community get warned and banned pretty quick as it is.

And this ^

[SmoknTires]

I completely agree with Vprbites purpose, as every time I see a poor post by an enthusiast - I wonder if that outweighs the benefits they bring. The thought has crossed my mind many times.

I do think there is value to them having fairly open access, their opinions do matter (and of course many are still Viper owners). I also think the quantity of opinions we get is also helpful. On the downside, they are somewhat more unruly than members when we look at the "bulk" of cultural clashes with have with people who misbehave. People who are members of the club obviously care more about the impact their comments have on club members and future club members.

But in weighing the pros/cons, and the impacts of creating segregation, I think that it's still something I'm slightly inclined to be careful with. If we have member only areas, we begin to split content, as we'll pull content out of forums where posts would have been made. We also create some messiness and we'll of course have people cross posting so that they can have a conversation in and out of the member group. I also feel it'll push people away and in general we'll get less content, which is something we always wanted. There are many on the forums who join the club once they experience a part of what we are.

This is a case where either direction has ramifications, but I lean toward not splitting the group, but have asked our mod and officer group if there are other ideas for creating new content that only members benefit from. Viprbite, one correction, the tech team forum is actually only a member benefit and was a great idea -I've gotten lots of emails thanking us for implementing, it was a unique idea. If we can get more like that, I think it has little negative impact and tremendous positive impact on members. Adding a very specific benefit that narrows the scope and actually creates content would be a win/win.

I know the frustration at times. Sometimes when you see a negative nelly and review their last posts, you can often find they are a serial offender. Luckily the mods really do a great job at monitoring and filtering the really bad stuff (and they take the hit for it), but I do agree with you that categorically we do tend to be challenged by (some) enthusiasts who like to push limits and get rough when sitting behind a keyboard.