Built Motor VS Supercharged VS Twin Turbos

[ICPREY]

Off topic, what did you get out of the 2.8 Roe with the GG heads?

672RWHP/655TQ on a conservative tune (timing) with high flow cats. It uses the 8lb pulley from the 2.4L so the IATs should be lower. It had a lot of back to back dyno pulls (15 plus) in Florida July heat with no loss of power. I have a feeling it has a lot more in it, but I just wanted the car back after having it at a shop for a tune for five months. I had a build thread on the VCA about it.

[KRATEDISEASE]

After owning and selling a TT Gallardo I can tell you that you will have a very difficult time with resale. The TT market is very small.

Supercharger should get you the gains you are looking for and still leave yourself room for resale later. You will also be able to develop a more well-rounded package around a supercharger. In my experience (based on supercharged F-bodies and Corvettes) you still have a lot of the NA usability of the powerband whereas with a TT you will find yourself more often than not in "arrest me" territory.

However, and take this next bit with a grain of salt as I am still getting caught up on the history and learnings in this regard...doesn't FI of any kind on a Viper require some level of engine build?

Agreed, Tator told me that my car could be returned to stock very easily and sold without my ROE supercharger should I choose....BUT Roe Racing told me that they will be doing Turbos in the future since there is greater power output will less Top end limitations should you want to go closer to 1000HP.

[v10addiction]

Super Chargers are easy to install, and make great power and torque until they heat soak, but they will not last with regular track use.
Back to back pulls with a super charger on our dyno showed how bad heat soak kills the power after just two pulls.
This why S/C guys carry ice to the dyno to cool the intake and superchargers.
Even water to air inter-coolers can't cut it.
Just look at the ZR1, after one pull it's down 130hp.

Twin turbos are complex to route or fit, and at a nightmare to keep the oil moving back to the pan on a Viper.
Every oil pump on the market short of a dry sump fails rather quickly.
When the turbo oil pump stops, turbos die!
Dry sumps run $10k and up.

Plus turbo have lag issues and require very specialized tuning to be safe, and become a serious potential fire hazard due to the tight fit.
You are unlikely to get a good turbo setup to fit a viper without cutting a lot of the car, especially around the foot wells and front nose for the inter-cooler.

A well built N/A motor, making power and torque over 650 will cost a lot to build and will need exotic fuel to live there.
An average 600+ N/A build will cost $20k+, in most cases $30k.
Valve train alone could set you back $5k without heads.
They are bad ass, but to make that power, it will be unlikely you would drive it very far with the noise level associated with the bigger open exhaust required.

We have built them all, and the king power adder is Nitrous hands down!
Motor stays stock, runs at the track, only makes big power when you need it.
Down side, the bottles do run empty sooner or later.

We use nitrous, even on road race cars for passing.
Nitrous is cheap and easy to install, done properly will not hurt anything, even cleans pistons and valves.

Many companies make the parts, and you can easily hide the nitrous install on a Viper.

If you know anything about electronics, you can build multistage setups with their own fuel supply, allowing you to run 91-93 octane in the tank and supply race gas only during the nitrous shot.

With proper octane and plugs, no timing retarding or retuning is necessary.
Gen I and Gen II's can be tricked to enrich the fuel for use with dry shots up to 140hp.

The hit of the nitrous can be controlled by the design of the lines, so you can get out of the hole with the shot on.
You can also control it with window switches, O2 safety, and TPS detection.
There are some rules you have to follow, but no S/C, TT, or N/A car of equal power can beat a Nitrous car, properly set up and driven.

In short, it can be made idiot proof!

A well set up nitrous system can be built for around $1000.
A nice two stage system for $2000.
Power levels can range from 50hp-300hp+ on a stock Gen I or Gen II, 50hp-200hp on stock Gen 3-4's.

I ran a stock Gen I Rt/10 on a two stage 265hp system for years without any issues.
The car ran high 10's on drag radials.
We pulled the heads last year to put in cometic head gaskets (thinner) for more compression, and were stunned see the rings and cylinder walls were perfect at 67k miles, on all that racing.
The factory cross hatching was still perfect!

I know many who hide nitrous in their Viper, and smoke the newer cars at events, leaving owners shaking theirs heads.
Nothing hits faster and gets you moving quicker then nitrous.

Unlike a Super charger, TT, or N/A motor, whatever power level of Nitrous you run hits with that power no matter what rpm.
Super chargers suffer on the high end, TT's build huge intake heat at big power and lag on the bottom, negating much of the gains.
N/A motors need RPM to make the power, so you end up having to shift it perfectly to see the benefits plus pay through the nose for high octane fuel.

We own them all, and they all have there place.

But a street driven reliable Viper with mean power is easier and cheaper built on Nitrous.
On gen 3-4 Vipers, there are some other safety measures to consider, but we run Nitrous on our gen IV's as well.

If you want a dyno queen, S/C make torque, TT's make horsepower, and N/A make noise, and nitrous can match any of them.
You can even tune nitrous to produce torque over horsepower by simply running a richer shot.

Nitrous power gains do not require you to rev the motor anymore than stock (but will if you want), and shut down instantly for braking.
The same is not easily said for any other build.

PM me if you want details on how to put nitrous on a Viper.

[J TNT]

^^^^^ Well said , I have had positive outcomes using Nitrous Oxide going as far back as 30 years ago .

[Smoky]

I have also liked the "idea" of nitrous but my experience from my V8 days (as it relates to the OP's questions) were that it will eventually kill your motor unless your motor is built to take nitrous (heads, rings, cam, etc) you will eventually destroy the motor. And the sense was always that one would kill resale if the buyer becomes aware that nitrous was run on the motor.

I find your post and evidence interesting and would like to know more/hear from others with experience running nitrous for long periods on the Viper... You are suggesting that the Viper motor takes to nitrous well in stock form. Is that the common experience? Would love to hear the answer is "yes" but I've had it so beaten into me that it's "bad for the motor" that I find it hard to believe. What is the common consensus on "how much nitrous" and "how often is it used" to be considered a "safe and reliable power adder"?

How often during that two year period were you racing/running on nitrous? Was ECU tuning or piggyback chip involved? What type of setup? Direct or fogger? Would love to see the details become part of the thread rather than via PM alone.

[Troublemaker]

When you really think about it, especially for the earlier Gens which aren't good breathers or revvers, a big shot of Oxygen seems like a logical step.

[Red Snake]

Yeah, nitrous is great.



Till it runs out, lol. Superchargers dont run out. And i have NEVER lost 100 hp on dyno pulls (w/m) with my car.
No way i would want to keep refilling bottles, or run out after a couple of runs.

Clearly everyone has their own preferences. To each his own, i guess.

[slitherv10]

Super Chargers are easy to install, and make great power and torque until they heat soak, but they will not last with regular track use.
Back to back pulls with a super charger on our dyno showed how bad heat soak kills the power after just two pulls.
This why S/C guys carry ice to the dyno to cool the intake and superchargers.
Even water to air inter-coolers can't cut it.
Just look at the ZR1, after one pull it's down 130hp.

Twin turbos are complex to route or fit, and at a nightmare to keep the oil moving back to the pan on a Viper.
Every oil pump on the market short of a dry sump fails rather quickly.
When the turbo oil pump stops, turbos die!
Dry sumps run $10k and up.

Plus turbo have lag issues and require very specialized tuning to be safe, and become a serious potential fire hazard due to the tight fit.
You are unlikely to get a good turbo setup to fit a viper without cutting a lot of the car, especially around the foot wells and front nose for the inter-cooler.

A well built N/A motor, making power and torque over 650 will cost a lot to build and will need exotic fuel to live there.
An average 600+ N/A build will cost $20k+, in most cases $30k.
Valve train alone could set you back $5k without heads.
They are bad ass, but to make that power, it will be unlikely you would drive it very far with the noise level associated with the bigger open exhaust required.

We have built them all, and the king power adder is Nitrous hands down!
Motor stays stock, runs at the track, only makes big power when you need it.
Down side, the bottles do run empty sooner or later.

We use nitrous, even on road race cars for passing.
Nitrous is cheap and easy to install, done properly will not hurt anything, even cleans pistons and valves.

Many companies make the parts, and you can easily hide the nitrous install on a Viper.

If you know anything about electronics, you can build multistage setups with their own fuel supply, allowing you to run 91-93 octane in the tank and supply race gas only during the nitrous shot.

With proper octane and plugs, no timing retarding or retuning is necessary.
Gen I and Gen II's can be tricked to enrich the fuel for use with dry shots up to 140hp.

The hit of the nitrous can be controlled by the design of the lines, so you can get out of the hole with the shot on.
You can also control it with window switches, O2 safety, and TPS detection.
There are some rules you have to follow, but no S/C, TT, or N/A car of equal power can beat a Nitrous car, properly set up and driven.

In short, it can be made idiot proof!

A well set up nitrous system can be built for around $1000.
A nice two stage system for $2000.
Power levels can range from 50hp-300hp+ on a stock Gen I or Gen II, 50hp-200hp on stock Gen 3-4's.

I ran a stock Gen I Rt/10 on a two stage 265hp system for years without any issues.
The car ran high 10's on drag radials.
We pulled the heads last year to put in cometic head gaskets (thinner) for more compression, and were stunned see the rings and cylinder walls were perfect at 67k miles, on all that racing.
The factory cross hatching was still perfect!

I know many who hide nitrous in their Viper, and smoke the newer cars at events, leaving owners shaking theirs heads.
Nothing hits faster and gets you moving quicker then nitrous.

Unlike a Super charger, TT, or N/A motor, whatever power level of Nitrous you run hits with that power no matter what rpm.
Super chargers suffer on the high end, TT's build huge intake heat at big power and lag on the bottom, negating much of the gains.
N/A motors need RPM to make the power, so you end up having to shift it perfectly to see the benefits plus pay through the nose for high octane fuel.

We own them all, and they all have there place.

But a street driven reliable Viper with mean power is easier and cheaper built on Nitrous.
On gen 3-4 Vipers, there are some other safety measures to consider, but we run Nitrous on our gen IV's as well.

If you want a dyno queen, S/C make torque, TT's make horsepower, and N/A make noise, and nitrous can match any of them.
You can even tune nitrous to produce torque over horsepower by simply running a richer shot.

Nitrous power gains do not require you to rev the motor anymore than stock (but will if you want), and shut down instantly for braking.
The same is not easily said for any other build.

PM me if you want details on how to put nitrous on a Viper.

Now this is an interesting post. Definitely caught my attention. Would love to know more. You asked to Pm you but you are not excepting PM's...lol.

Pm me and leave me a number to get a hold of you. Thanks

[plumcrazy]

nitrous was crazy fun on my old gen2. i ran over 100 bottles thru it in about 2 1/2 years. stuff is just fun but bottles running out is a PIA. the built motor with paxton was just as much fun with no worry about bottles. I always wanted to add a small shot (37) to the paxton. a boosted car takes very well to nitrous and its effect is worth 4 times as much cause of the cooling. I never got around to hooking it up, wish i did....

[NI-KA]

What happened to reliability as a feature?

It seems that NA would be "ultimately" reliable if the build utilized factory stock GEN 4 heads on the '96.

The '96 has forged internals and I believe the desirable 708 CAM. So not much to be done on the bottom as long as it is running reliably now.

I am a little biased since the current build on my '97 is utilizing the GEN 4 heads.

[v10addiction]

What happened to reliability as a feature?

It seems that NA would be "ultimately" reliable if the build utilized factory stock GEN 4 heads on the '96.

The '96 has forged internals and I believe the desirable 708 CAM. So not much to be done on the bottom as long as it is running reliably now.

I am a little biased since the current build on my '97 is utilizing the GEN 4 heads.

I have found over the decades, that most people believe a motor has to built for nitrous and somehow nitrous shortens the life of a motor.
The truth is, most Super Charges are installed on stock motors, and the power limitations imposed on the boost is due to the engine builds.

Most people who spend the money on turbo's will build the motor as well.
But the same is not normally the case to SC cars.

Ring gap is the issue in most cases, but the pistons themselves can also be a problem.
Hence the low power output numbers from factory kits.

Allow me to elaborate a bit:

Standard ring gap (the measurement of the separation in the ring ends of each ring at its tightest point in the cyclinder) is set for pollution requirements.
So "tight" is the standard, this permits as little escaping unburned fuel to pass by the rings to the inside of the block as possible, especially during cold running periods.

As the motor heats up, the ring gap closes.
Under heavy power conditions the rings swell from the heat and finish closing the gap.

When you add boost to a stock motor, the ring gap is too tight to add much more heat, as such it limits the amount of boost you can add.
A lot of Viper guys can tell you what happens when the ring gap swells to fully closed and tries to push beyond.
The rings seize into the cylinder wall and it all goes boom!

The best SC package on the market can't compensate for the ring gap, so the science dictates you have a low ceiling before heat is an issue.

The reason intake temps are so critical, is the air density and transferring cooling capability of the air allows for more heat to be absorbed.
This is why 8-lbs of boost on a after-cooled screw drive is not the same power as 8-lbs on an inter-cooled turbo setup.

During combustion, the piston and rings are surrounded in flame and extreme heat, thus swelling and closing the gap.
During exhaust they are beginning to cool, but are red hot (but have stopped swelling at least).
During intake they are cooled and shrink, opening slightly again.
Envisioning the manufacturer was trying to meet pollution requirements, you can see they weren't designing it for more power by leaving extra gap for you.

We are talking thousandths of an inch, but they are cast iron rings, and trapped in the ring landing, so they become brake pads to the cylinder walls until something gives and finally the motor is done.

Colder intake air means more power can be put through the cylinder.

Reliability comes in many forms, but if you are actually going to race a car long enough to empty a Nitrous bottle, consider how much power and how often you need it and build accordingly.

None of the world record holding mile cars, did it with just a Super charger, as the heat soak kills them on the top end.
Twin charged cars don't get there either for the same reason.

Turbos work great on the top end, but require a true engine build to get the real advantages.

Back to Nitrous.

So what happens when we dump huge power into a cylinder with a tight ring gap and nitrous?

Look at the science.

Any gas released from higher pressure to a lower pressure atmosphere cools on expansion.
Nitrous happens to drop the air temp -200f+

N2O is bound to one part pure oxygen.
This is way more power then any air you can squeeze in with boost.

Once released during combustion with the heat sucking cooling effect, the piston is actually cooled and the ring gap opens slightly.

Since it takes extreme heat to release the oxygen molecule, the combustion is actually extremely rich and very wet.
When this mixture hits the piston and rings, they vaporize it, and the corresponding vapor expands taking heat energy with it.
This happens while the valves are already closed, so the expansion alone adds power by moving the piston for lack of space.
The rings shrink and the gap opens and we can now add even more heat in the form of power.

The end result is you can get more power in the motor and in less time and safer with nitrous done properly.

Now for reliability.

If you invested the same amount of money in a proper nitrous setup, as you do in a SC kit, you would have a system so bad ass it would almost drive the car for you.
Nitrous costs dramatically less, period!

A nitrous system is only on when you program it to be, so your not stressing the engine or drive-line when it's off.

Many have tried to tune SC engines to keep the extreme power hit under control, but I have yet to see one actually do it well.
Most SC guys will tell you, if they hit is wrong they spin and loose.
Not even the mighty ZR1 has a grip on this, so basically they just kill the timing and power falls to get you under control.

Turbo's use boost controllers, but as most with a turbo (or twins) will tell you, once they hit your just along for the ride.
Pretty smoke usually follows.

I have seen more turbo and SC Viper's wrecked from this alone, then any else.
On the upside though, we all need their spare parts contribution.

So what can you do when you car gets a SC or Turbo installed for tuning?
If its a Gen IV/5 your screwed.
If its a gen I/II/III, the now out of production VEC's or AEM.
If its a Gen II/II the ever disappointing out of production SCT.
Lets not forget the dangerous but still around Split Second box, allowing you to put two fuel pumps under your hood next to your exhaust to catch fire in a collision.
Ask a few Viper guys about that.

Now when you decide on how you will tune your boosted motor, you have to decide if you will spend the countless hours to master tuning, or be at the mercy of a shop who can screw you anytime, purposely or not, and blame your stock motor, or some other parts you had no control of.

The fact is, a SC and turbo car will need tuning several times per year, as the average temperature changes.

Most won't get the tuning done, so they run lean when its cool and rich when its hot and dramatically shorten the life the engine.

If you build a bass ass N/A build, you fall in to the same issues and will be tuning all the time.
Your motor will be tougher and take more of a beating, but without regular re-tunes, it goes the same route.

It was originally asked in this thread about reliability.

I give you nitrous once again.

Nitrous is independent of your engines tuning.
The PCM does not care about it, properly installed the PCM will do nothing to interfere. (No re-tuning required)

The power is only there when you want it.
No extra wear and tear on the motor when it not being used.
You can't say the same for SC or Turbo cars.

Now lets say you want to race a SC and Turbo car with your nitrous car.

Picture your favorite stretch of straightaway.
You line up against an SC guy and a turbo guy.

The three honks take place and you all launch.
For the sake of bad driving skills, we will do this from 40mph.

The gate closes on the SC car and his full boost hits and he pulls on the turbo car instantly to 100mph
The gate closes on the turbo car, but he needs time to spool, so he falls behind a little and is only at 85mph.
Both cars have to worry about traction as the power hit is out of their control.

For sake of equality, we are assuming all car make 700hp to the wheels.

The nitrous car launches on base motor and 1 second in the nitrous begins to pulse in a small amount of power by wheel speed.
Only enough to reach the edge of traction.

Now you will say why don't the others do the same?

Because boost is not some small amount of air we can turn on and off so easily.
They try to do it with waste gates and blow-off valves, but they fall short, due to the strain on the impellers and slow reaction times of the valves.

So the nitrous car pulls right beside the SC car.

1/8 mile passes:

The turbo car spools fully, but at every gear shift, he drops boost and an average of 7mph and looses .6 seconds to get back to full boost.

The SC car does not loose so much between shifts, but begins to heat soak and the intake temps rise displacing oxygen thus loosing power.
Black smoke begins to dump from the SC cars exhaust.
A great tune here (most are not) will try and bring the fuel back to compensate for less oxygen, most do not.
As the heat rises, the SC motor begins to run richer and make extreme heat in the exhaust (fire risk goes up exponentially here).
The SC driver will also be dealing with every shift possibly breaking traction.
During each shift, the valve closes on the SC and recirculates the the same air multiple passes through the SC and heats up even more.
Once the throttle goes back full, the super heated air hits the cylinders (hence the need to run cooler plugs and less timing, all for this brief moment).

The nitrous car will be at full power and every shift the nitrous shuts off automatically by throttle position, until he is fully back in the next gear.
No time lost between shifts, and the nitrous controller can dial back the power just after gear engagement, to reduce the chances of wheel spin again.

1/4 Mile passes.

The SC car begins to fall behind and you can imagine his disappointment.
The turbo car is pulling his ass off, but every shift the nitrous car walks on him a little more.

End result the nitrous guy will win until the bottle goes empty.
How long that takes, depends on how much of a shot.

A 15 lbs bottle with a 150hp shot, will last a full 3 mile run. (granted, the bottle temp will drop and the shot will go richer as time goes by, but he will be way ahead)
So if your favorite racing stretch is over three miles, mount two bottles.

We use nitrous to help re-spool turbos after a shift, but the truth is, a turbo motor needs a clutch-less up-shift sequential gear box to really shine, with our without nitrous.

SC cars are fun to run around on the street, but as I stated above, they need regular tuning and suck in heat and traffic.

Turbo cars are a blast and great dyno number cars, but again will require regular tuning, huge modifications to the car, and high costs.

Nitrous cars require you to change the bottle from time to time.

To handle filling your own bottles (reducing costs), you simple go to a gas supply company and lease a N2O bottle (sometimes called nitrous plus, $10 a month).
Ask for one with a siphon tube installed.
Buy an extra bottle fitting and a line to go between your cars bottle and the leased bottle (at lest 6ft long).

With your cars bottle emptied, set in on a scale and get it's empty weight, record this on the bottle.

To fill your empty bottle, keep the leased bottle in someplace out of the way (room temp) and store your cars bottle in a deep freezer over night.

Connect the lines to both bottles (quickly as your bottle is now removed from the freezer and is warming).
Set your bottle on the scale and open the valves allowing warmer nitrous from the leased bottle to flow to the colder empty bottle.
Watch the weight as your bottle gets heavier and reaches the weight of amount of nitrous the bottle is designed for. (nitrous weight)
If the bottle does not fill, simply put it back in the freezer and cool it again and try the process again until you get your total weight.

Beside price savings, you can top off your bottle instead of pay for a full bottle every time.
Just log your bottles empty weight the first time, and from there on you can top it off when you want.

Yes you can squeeze more in, but the science of nitrous dictates that, as the bottle warms, pressure will rise, so higher pressures cause leaner run conditions.
800-1100 psi is the range you want the bottle to be at for great power and reliability when you fire the shot, and liquid N2O is what you want spraying into the motor.
So I would recommend you not exceed 18lbs of nitrous in a 15lbs bottle, and keep it away from extreme heat.
If you are mounting it under the rear deck of a GTS or Coupe, stay conservative and stick to the bottle rating due to sunlight heating up under the glass.

How you plumb the nitrous lines dictates how hard or soft it hits before reaching full power.

Example: Direct port injected nitrous kits hit softer because the metal tubing to each cylinder port heat soaks and expands the nitrous before it reaches the cylinder.
The longer the metal tube, the softer the hit.
12 inches of metal tubing to the jet gives you about 1/2 second of delay to full hit.

This why some systems have coiled tubing on the lines, to slow the hit mechanically.
Of course, after that delay is overcome by cold, its instant.

So in summary, and well designed Nitrous system is far more reliable and easier to drive then anything but stock.

As for the guy who claimed he never saw a loss on the dyno on his Supercharger.
That black cloud of smoke shooting out of your exhaust when the boost is full, is not a sign of your amazing engine power.
It is unburned fuel resulting from your combustion process going rich from your boost heating up (heat soak) and thinning the air.
Translation, power loss.
I have thousands of dyno logs from 7 years of almost exclusively Viper dyno pulls on every kind of build to back my story.
Take it from someone who knows, you don't have the ONE supercharger that does not loose power from heat soak.

If you build your motor for nitrous you can do even more.

I have built several 12+/1 compression N/A motors, and I always add extra ring gap for nitrous, just in case.
Most builders I know do the same.
N/A is bad ass and sounds wicked when it starts and runs, but nobody tears an engine apart to bring it back in a new mean form and not support at least Nitrous.

Most of the SC cars (especially the centrifugal ones) couldn't beat a stock mustang out of the hole.
If your into all around performance (not racing from 60 like the guys who can get out of the hole do) you want power everywhere.
Lets face it, what Viper isn't already a handful out of the hole stock?

The cooling effect of nitrous is so profound, it actually adds base power to the motor due to the cooling of the intake charge.
This is why many turbo guys use it down stream after the inter-cooler to spool the motor faster.

So if you want some shop to bolt on a super charger so you can brag you have one, go for it.
If you want to kick their ass and keep it a secret, while keeping every other aspect of reliability in the car you had before hand, I give you NITROUS.

By the way, I fixed the private message issue I believe, so people can PM me.

If anyone is interested, I will post part numbers and build specs to do this yourself.
I am retired from building them for others, and simple build mine and my kids Vipers for our racing these days.
But I love to consult and am glad to lend a hand to fellow Viper lovers.

All you SC and Turbo guys should not take offense, the ultimate combination is dependent on your personal preference, the question was reliability.

Me, I own one of everything and race everything I own.

I road race a N/A 700rwhp Viper with an extra 250hp single stage nitrous shot.
I drag race a Supercharged 900rwhp Viper with an extra 300hp two stage nitrous shot.
I mile race a twin turbo Viper 1800rwhp+, soon to have 600hp nitrous three stage shot.

I cruise them on the street all!
Some more cautiously than others.

[Ninjakris]

Thank You, that was well throughout and you broke it down enough for someone like myself who doesn't quite understand the science behind nitrous. here's a question for you. I have a Paxton car with the basic kit. With your explanation of ring gaps, and how nitrous actually helps out the situation, would you see any reason not to do a small shot for 1/2 mile or mile events? I would only run 50-100 if I did it. My old school though would be its too much for the car, but according to what I think I read, it will take it just fine. obviously I would do all the tuning and fuel needed, but I have done a couple nitrous kits on otherwise N/A cars before and the process isn't that difficult. Plus it will look bad ass to have a big bottle under my hatch glass.

Also, for what its worth, I'm a huge fan of NOS. I have been around lots of cars with it and as long as the tuning is done right, they have always done well.

[slitherv10]

Wow, this write-up was not all Greek to me as many tend to usually. I totally agree with the above post^^^

Great job. Now I hate you! You've just turned my whole line of thought into a complete 180 degree. I will be looking at this option as it looks like, when properly installed, it can have a lot more benefits from the others and for a lot less money.
Reliability is foremost for me and this seems to hit it right on the nail. For me anyways.

[v10addiction]

Thank You, that was well throughout and you broke it down enough for someone like myself who doesn't quite understand the science behind nitrous. here's a question for you. I have a Paxton car with the basic kit. With your explanation of ring gaps, and how nitrous actually helps out the situation, would you see any reason not to do a small shot for 1/2 mile or mile events? I would only run 50-100 if I did it. My old school though would be its too much for the car, but according to what I think I read, it will take it just fine. obviously I would do all the tuning and fuel needed, but I have done a couple nitrous kits on otherwise N/A cars before and the process isn't that difficult. Plus it will look bad ass to have a big bottle under my hatch glass.

Also, for what its worth, I'm a huge fan of NOS. I have been around lots of cars with it and as long as the tuning is done right, they have always done well.

Actually, pairing a Paxton and nitrous is fairly simple and can be done safely.

The trick here it to get the nitrous out of the way when you get the desired power level of the Paxton achieved.
To do this, you build the nitrous system with a few electronics to make it failure proof.

1. Use a RPM window switch to restrict the nitrous to a specific RPM range.
(say 3500-5500) Several factors are involved, but in short, we do not want nitrous spraying before you have grip, and we want to ensure no over revving, in the event you snap the wheels loose or break the drive-line, both of which your Paxton could do alone. As you tune the shot, you can adjust this up of down, my range is a starting point for most.

2. Use a TPS gate switch(Throttle position sensor switch) The biggest problem with the setup is that you will be spraying nitrous in the front end of the intake, or even outside of the throttle body.
This ensures you can not fire the nitrous unless you are at wide open throttle, thus preventing any backfire potential.

3. O2 sensor gate switch (02 sensor measure voltage to ensure if for any reason your motor goes lean during the nitrous shot, the nitrous shuts off)

4. Optional PSI pressure switch (this allows you to shut down the nitrous when the desired boost is achieved and return again when boost fades on the top end).

All of this engineered properly sounds complex, but is really just a some wiring and plumbing to give you a safe and brainless nitrous hit.

Since each of these electronics can prevent the shot, they also function as (when all are in proper range) to turn it back on or off as parameters are meet.

For example, when you shift in a race, you often break the tires loose.
The TPS switch would see the throttle close and stop the nitrous until it returned to full.

As you top out a gear, the RPM gate would drop the nitrous.

As your boost begins to fade from back to back pulls resulting in heat soak, the nitrous

The net gain of a 50hp shot on your first dyno pull would equate to 50hp, plus approximately 1hp for every 20 degrees the air temp drops.
When your motor and paxton were on back to back pulls, the diastolic loss would be offset by the cooling resulting in little if any loss from the paxton.


What missing in the power equation is power under the curve.

Power in a Viper is very broad. Peak power is only usable at peak.
What you Paxton does not do is give you that massive power gain down low like a screw drive would.

Nitrous is independent of you engines power band and slaps that power everywhere.


So lets put that to use in an example.

Like most paxton kits, the power comes on at 4500+.
So until then you are working on base engine power minus the loss incurred by the drag of the super charger plus the restrict air path the intake will suffer.

So at 1500rpm say, you have 150hp and 200tq base.
Now add 50hp and 50tq from nitrous and you have 33% more power out of the box and 25% torque, plus you spun the super charger up quicker to it's power band.
In addition, the cooling effect of the minimal 50hp shot gained another 12-25hp on the motor on the bottom end, and none of this gain required a motor build or re-tune.

So in short, you can do this no problem, and its not difficult to do.

Many companies have come out with the electronics I mentioned, and some bundle them now to allow you to even re-tune the shot on the fly based on what is going on.
With that, you can have 100 or 200 shot become a 50 in the end and double your bottom end only briefly until the Paxton takes over.

Imagine, having the bottom end power of your Paxton but never stressing the motor of the total Paxton power addition.

[v10addiction]

Wow, this write-up was not all Greek to me as many tend to usually. I totally agree with the above post^^^

Great job. Now I hate you! You've just turned my whole line of thought into a complete 180 degree. I will be looking at this option as it looks like, when properly installed, it can have a lot more benefits from the others and for a lot less money.
Reliability is foremost for me and this seems to hit it right on the nail. For me anyways.

Well I am glad to expand your thinking somewhat.

Nitrous is not a final solution for most, due to the bottles capacity, but I was raised in the world of big horsepower.
The law has always been "you run what you bring".
If your going with just a super charger or turbo, you will get beat when someone like me shows up with nitrous on top on of the same setup.

So even if you never fire the shot, it looks bad ass and its there when you want it!

What is so amazing about nitrous is how easily you can control the shot and hence the power gain, electronically.
With careful study on your launch, you can launch on nitrous and increase the power as your traction permits.

There are nitrous cars knocking on the door in terms of power and speed, of top fuel dragsters.

Most do not know any of the history of nitrous, but it has been around in strange engines for almost a century.
The Germans used it to dominate air space and out climb their enemies for most of WWII.

In fact the turbine was developed from research knowledge gained from the use of Nitrous on prop planes.
German dive bombers carried two 60lb nitrous bottles on every run, effectively doubling there power in thinning air above where the enemies could even fly.

It does the same for your engine, effectively putting usable oxygen where no more would fit.

[Nine Ball]

I like N2O + Paxton. It has served me pretty well

[LittleCobra]

Most do not know any of the history of nitrous, but it has been around in strange engines for almost a century.
The Germans used it to dominate air space and out climb their enemies for most of WWII.

This is interesting because I always thought they added superchargers for this purpose. I do faintly recall the use of water/meth but was previously unaware of the nitrous use.

[Ninjakris]

Thanks for breaking it down for me with the Paxton/NOS relationship. I am going to have my wife read this so she doesn't think I'm crazy when I start buying nitrous components. Lol.

[ACRucrazy]

Has anyone successfully put a big shot on a Gen IV? I have "heard' people have, I have seen pics of a bottle or two installed, I have yet to see dyno, video, or any real proof of how its been done.

Great read however, thanks for giving me something to turn the gears.

[v10addiction]

Has anyone successfully put a big shot on a Gen IV? I have "heard' people have, I have seen pics of a bottle or two installed, I have yet to see dyno, video, or any real proof of how its been done.

Great read however, thanks for giving me something to turn the gears.

We ran a 2008 ACR with a 150 shot for several races without any issues.
To the tune of about 40 15lb bottles of nitrous.
This particular car had 20k miles on it already.

The pistons are not ideal for this, so anymore would be pushing your luck in my opinion.

We tore the same motor down to swap pistons to the ACR-X forged, and found no signs of wear or any issues at all.
After measuring the ring gap, I would say the pistons are the limiting factor not the rings.

With forged pistons, the motor is good to 1000hp.
With stock pistons, 800hp at the flywheel before the heat causes the pistons to start to swell into the cylinder walls.
The stock clutch is only good to about 800hp to the wheels before we have seen them start coming apart.

If you are going to do this on a stock Gen IV, make sure you have great cats.
The factory cats will not like the extra heat for very long.

We run two ACR-X's with 250hp shots all the time, and these motors live at 6000rpm for 30-45 minute races.
Sometimes we run two bottles for the 90 minutes races.
Nothing says "excuse me but I am passing now" like a nitrous shot!

If you can take the time when you build the nitrous system, add a small fuel cell (2 quarts) and separate fuel pump to run race fuel (unleaded only) for a wet shot.
This will give you the extra octane only when you need it, but most importantly, it will insure you do not lean out if the PCM decides to cut fuel pressure for any number of normal reasons (rev limit, throttle error, etc...).

I only mention this becuase many people will tap the fuel for the nitrous off the factory rail, and the PCM controls the rail pressure.

The only real danger with nitrous is a very lean shot can create a backfire.

As for dyno numbers, It wont matter what you put nitrous on, the dyno will show the power unless the drive-line gives up.

You can tune the shot for horsepower or torque by adding fuel for torque or taking it away (slightly) for horsepower.
Often people mistake acceleration out of the hole for horsepower.

To error on the rich fuel mixture side is safest and simply adds smoke to the exhaust.

We also have data that when we run the ACR-X's nitrous bottle empty (no more N20 to spray) if we continue to spray the fuel anyway, the motor makes an extra 40-60hp.
We backed that up on dyno tests and found they all run very lean on the top end, so the extra fuel just wakes it up.

[dadstoy]

kind of curious as to why the OP wants the big HP numbers. I think he said 85% street, 10% strip and 5% track. Are you looking for numbers for Bragging rights? I do not mean that in a bad way, we know men love big numbers. I am just curious as to why. We all want the biggest, baddest motor but he kept saying reliable is number 1. I had a built Trans Am and reliability goes out the window when you want big power. Be prepared to pay to play.

[Mbccenter]

You can just trade in your 96' on my 97' B/W that is a fully built A.R.T. Twin Turbo. Everything done and ready to go

[slitherv10]

You can just trade in your 96' on my 97' B/W that is a fully built A.R.T. Twin Turbo. Everything done and ready to go

Update from my original post......

In doing some research and talking with a few past and present TT owners, I have come to terms with the fact that as a strictly cruising car it would not be the correct choice as well as servicing issues since there is no one up my way that could keep this car tuned and running properly during my ownership. TT cars from what I have been told need a lot of attention to detail as far as tuning and keeping the car up to par so It can run right with no problems or issues. Lastly, as Dadstoy mentioned above, I did not put to heart (and reality) for that matter, that the amount of HP that a TT has would be wasted HP on the street. Not usable and a detriment in what it represents. The drag strip is the only "real" home for those babies. That is where they shine. Where the build is truly justified. They are also very hard to sell as most feel the same as I do and use the car far less than what it was built for.
SC cars are a tad more streetable but have their own issues in regards to overheating and or tuning as well. Also with reselling issues.
Built NA motor is really a better option than the above 3 and more reliable, less tuning issues and not as much things breaking down as the others. Of course this is assuming all three versions are built correctly and HP is relevant to the build. What I mean is, if your spending the big money for a lot of HP your never really going to use, then why build it and waist the money. 1000Hp is useless on the street. 650 is ore streetable and thus a NA build to get close to that for half the money spent is more feasible.
Nothing taken away from the TT and SC builds , each to their own but, in the end, its a small market for them and thus a hard sell. Beautiful cars that are beautiful to look at and admire, but questionable when ownership comes to fruition.

I have decided to sell my 08 vert and maybe my 96 GTS and settle for an ACR and get the best of both worlds. Power and performance and reliability.

[Mbccenter]

Update from my original post......

In doing some research and talking with a few past and present TT owners, I have come to terms with the fact that as a strictly cruising car it would not be the correct choice as well as servicing issues since there is no one up my way that could keep this car tuned and running properly during my ownership. TT cars from what I have been told need a lot of attention to detail as far as tuning and keeping the car up to par so It can run right with no problems or issues. Lastly, as Dadstoy mentioned above, I did not put to heart (and reality) for that matter, that the amount of HP that a TT has would be wasted HP on the street. Not usable and a detriment in what it represents. The drag strip is the only "real" home for those babies. That is where they shine. Where the build is truly justified. They are also very hard to sell as most feel the same as I do and use the car far less than what it was built for.
SC cars are a tad more streetable but have their own issues in regards to overheating and or tuning as well. Also with reselling issues.
Built NA motor is really a better option than the above 3 and more reliable, less tuning issues and not as much things breaking down as the others. Of course this is assuming all three versions are built correctly and HP is relevant to the build. What I mean is, if your spending the big money for a lot of HP your never really going to use, then why build it and waist the money. 1000Hp is useless on the street. 650 is ore streetable and thus a NA build to get close to that for half the money spent is more feasible.
Nothing taken away from the TT and SC builds , each to their own but, in the end, its a small market for them and thus a hard sell. Beautiful cars that are beautiful to look at and admire, but questionable when ownership comes to fruition.

I have decided to sell my 08 vert and maybe my 96 GTS and settle for an ACR and get the best of both worlds. Power and performance and reliability.

I am sorry but you could not be more wrong in your statement. I have had them all and as with any of them it is in the quality of the build that will make the difference in the maintenance you have to put in. Also has to do with how you drive the car. I have seen issues with them all and I have seen them run well. With turbos and supercharges you are adding parts that in turn adds more stuff that can go wrong. There is more maintenance involved with the more power you run in any of the applications.

I drive 1k rwhp + Vipers on the street all the time and love it. I am not a big track guy but still love the power for the street. Some say I have issues though.

I have owned over 50 Vipers and I can sell the TT's as easy or sometimes easier than stock ones. When you have a well built car they move. When selling a car it is just a matter of a buyer looking for what you are selling. Your market is smaller but your competition is also smaller with these cars.

Now with all that said a big monster built car is not for everyone. I love them but that does not mean they are for everyone. If you stick to mods that you don't mess with the tuning or fuel system that will be your most reliable option. Like with a ACR. They can make OK power when done but still nowhere near a TT. I do have a ACR also and am starting to mod it to get it in the 600+ rwhp range. If you have 2 cars then I would build one into a monster and the other mild. But that is the guy with issues talking

[TowDawg]

Addiction, posting up some part numbers and layout would be awesome!
I've run nitrous in the past, but if something went bad (it never did), the motor would have been a whole lot cheaper to fix.
I thought about putting it on the Gen III (just a 150 shot), but by the time I added all of the fail-safes to it, I was over $3k, which at that point I started leaning toward SC. If there's a way to safely put together a set-up for $1k, then I'm definitely interested. I'm especially interested in how to be able to spray without having to have a system to retard timing when spraying, or having to run around on a lower power tune all the time just in case I might spray.