It should be worse!

[ironpeddler]

No one it hating, stop being obtuse

I was just trying to give him some encouragement. Whats wrong with that? He just stated in a previous post that he was afraid to post a vid of him driving cause of all the flaming he would receive. Who would be flaming him? Haters, hence my comment. So I made my post trying to offer some encouragement. Now I am being obtuse? Explain yourself.

[FLATOUT]

Spot on here.

This is a great discussion and has probably helped a lot of people learn a lot about cooling a Gen V at the fastest levels of HPDE style track days. Not saying we can't figure out ways to try and get the car to run cooler, but I feel like this thread in particular has started to take on the correct tone which is how can we lower elevated track temps. Yes these few examples are still in what the cars designers consider to be a safe range but it is approaching the ceiling of the safe range.

I don't recall you mentioning that your car is cutting out or not operating well while at those temps (240-245 degrees). It seems that once it hits that temp range you decided it was too hot and did cool down laps. It seems as if the engineer stated that 255 degrees is a safe limit for the car. In other words it seems designed to operate safely up to those temps. So if nothing it going wrong with the car at those temps and its still turning in those 2:24 laps times then it would seem you could have done a few more laps before/if it hit the 250+ temp range. Has anyone got it up to 255 degrees on track? If so what happened at that point? Just wondering if we are using temps from other cars as a measuring stick for this car. For instance the G4 Vipers were in the 210 temp range but the G5 runs hotter so we might think the G5 needs to be 200-210.

When a car overheats it quits a la Vette. These Vipers running 230-245 are still running from what I'm reading so I'm not sure the car is overheating especially after what the engineer has said is the safe limit. Wanting cooler temps is great but if the car is designed with that operating temp range we might be making more of this than necessary? Just thinking out loud from a different perspective on this issue. I reserve the right to be wrong.

[ViperDC]

I was just trying to give him some encouragement. Whats wrong with that? He just stated in a previous post that he was afraid to post a vid of him driving cause of all the flaming he would receive. Who would be flaming him? Haters, hence my comment. So I made my post trying to offer some encouragement. Now I am being obtuse? Explain yourself.

Your comments about how the Gen V cooling system "sucks" in your original post are ridiculous. Talk about much ado about nothing. Just to recap, no car has overheated on the track yet, multiple owners have said they have no temp issues even when beating on the cars, a couple have said they run hotter than they'd like but their cars didn't overheat and were running cooler than what Viper engineers say is an acceptable limit and they have no idea if their cars would have even approached that limit or overheated had they kept driving hard.

To show up, blast people and post a bunch of tripe about how the Viper cooling system "sucks" is contributing nothing to the discussion.

[ViperGeorge]

Spot on here.

This is a great discussion and has probably helped a lot of people learn a lot about cooling a Gen V at the fastest levels of HPDE style track days. Not saying we can't figure out ways to try and get the car to run cooler, but I feel like this thread in particular has started to take on the correct tone which is how can we lower elevated track temps. Yes these few examples are still in what the cars designers consider to be a safe range but it is approaching the ceiling of the safe range.

This is exactly right. How can we lower elevated track temps? While some posters keep saying "No car has overheated", the truth is we don't know if they would because everyone that reaches 240 and gets the idiot light has backed off. I don't think anyone wants to be the first to see what happens if they keep pushing up to 255. I certainly don't want to find out. I'd rather have a larger cushion between track temps and the upper limits as specified by the engineers.

I do also believe that, as someone already posted, melted EVAP lines and melted wires by those with headers are related to high engine temps. Headers coupled with the higher engine temps must certainly increase the heat load absorbed by components in the engine compartment.

[VENOM V]

I plan to run past 240 to see if it goes any higher. I will let it get to 245 tops. Then I will do an ECU swap. Last move will be to pull the entire front grill off. New car is not here until March and I have 5 track days until then. Next will be to run stock tires. I will keep trying.

Sounds like a good plan, looking forward to seeing your results. I am tracking Oct 17-18 on Hoosiers and will report back all temp data.

[Steve M]

Here's another random thought: everyone keeps talking about engine coolant temps, but not too many have mentioned the oil temps. The engine oil cooler uses coolant to cool the oil. This is a fantastic system for a street car since the system works both ways - it gets the oil up to temp more quickly, and then holds it there. Under hot track conditions, though, the cooler might be getting overwhelmed...it's trying to dump the engine oil heat into the coolant as quickly as possible, but that's likely only compounding the problem.

What about running a dedicated oil cooler to keep the systems separate? I'm not sure if there's enough real estate to mount one, but it might be an interesting experiment.

[ViperGeorge]

Here's another random thought: everyone keeps talking about engine coolant temps, but not too many have mentioned the oil temps. The engine oil cooler uses coolant to cool the oil. This is a fantastic system for a street car since the system works both ways - it gets the oil up to temp more quickly, and then holds it there. Under hot track conditions, though, the cooler might be getting overwhelmed...it's trying to dump the engine oil heat into the coolant as quickly as possible, but that's likely only compounding the problem.

What about running a dedicated oil cooler to keep the systems separate? I'm not sure if there's enough real estate to mount one, but it might be an interesting experiment.

I've been thinking the same thing. In fact the coolant lines run close to the exhaust on the passenger side, which could allow for exhaust heat (especially with headers) to be absorbed by the coolant on its way to the oil cooler. This could keep the cooler from cooling the oil enough. Hotter oil would in turn raise the temperature of the coolant. It is a vicious cycle.

I've posted my oil temps already but at 243 coolant my oil was 263.

[BLUETA#1]

I don't recall you mentioning that your car is cutting out or not operating well while at those temps (240-245 degrees). It seems that once it hits that temp range you decided it was too hot and did cool down laps. It seems as if the engineer stated that 255 degrees is a safe limit for the car. In other words it seems designed to operate safely up to those temps. So if nothing it going wrong with the car at those temps and its still turning in those 2:24 laps times then it would seem you could have done a few more laps before/if it hit the 250+ temp range. Has anyone got it up to 255 degrees on track? If so what happened at that point? Just wondering if we are using temps from other cars as a measuring stick for this car. For instance the G4 Vipers were in the 210 temp range but the G5 runs hotter so we might think the G5 needs to be 200-210.

When a car overheats it quits a la Vette. These Vipers running 230-245 are still running from what I'm reading so I'm not sure the car is overheating especially after what the engineer has said is the safe limit. Wanting cooler temps is great but if the car is designed with that operating temp range we might be making more of this than necessary? Just thinking out loud from a different perspective on this issue. I reserve the right to be wrong.

I added a higher pressure coolant cap months ago. I worry at 250 my head gasket is now the weak link. As a mentioned earlier I will try 245ish and see what happens.

[BLUETA#1]

Here's another random thought: everyone keeps talking about engine coolant temps, but not too many have mentioned the oil temps. The engine oil cooler uses coolant to cool the oil. This is a fantastic system for a street car since the system works both ways - it gets the oil up to temp more quickly, and then holds it there. Under hot track conditions, though, the cooler might be getting overwhelmed...it's trying to dump the engine oil heat into the coolant as quickly as possible, but that's likely only compounding the problem.

What about running a dedicated oil cooler to keep the systems separate? I'm not sure if there's enough real estate to mount one, but it might be an interesting experiment.

If I went to a dry sump set up would that help. I was wondering the same thing you were about the oil.

[BLUETA#1]

I've been thinking the same thing. In fact the coolant lines run close to the exhaust on the passenger side, which could allow for exhaust heat (especially with headers) to be absorbed by the coolant on its way to the oil cooler. This could keep the cooler from cooling the oil enough. Hotter oil would in turn raise the temperature of the coolant. It is a vicious cycle.

I've posted my oil temps already but at 243 coolant my oil was 263.

I hit 270 on day one….moved to a 15/50 and it now runs at 255-260.

[TrackAire]

This is exactly right. How can we lower elevated track temps? While some posters keep saying "No car has overheated", the truth is we don't know if they would because everyone that reaches 240 and gets the idiot light has backed off. I don't think anyone wants to be the first to see what happens if they keep pushing up to 255. I certainly don't want to find out. I'd rather have a larger cushion between track temps and the upper limits as specified by the engineers.

I do also believe that, as someone already posted, melted EVAP lines and melted wires by those with headers are related to high engine temps. Headers coupled with the higher engine temps must certainly increase the heat load absorbed by components in the engine compartment.

Quick question regarding the actual idiot light and the computer. If the idiot light comes on, does the PCM store that information?.......and if you continue to drive the car and the cars temps continue to go up, does the PCM store that info?

My point is if you overheat the car to the point it damages something (head gaskets, warp heads, bearings, etc), does the PCM store that information and can it be used by the dealer to see that you continued driving the car even when the idiot light came on? Most of these cars are still under warranty....but I can see that being denied if the PCM has records of the car being over heated and showing continued 100% throttle position, etc. The way Dodge operates, I would be very careful on abusing the car on the premise that the warranty will cover it.

I can just see the conversation now with Dodge:

Car owner....... "My idiot light came on and I kept running at the track because Dick Winkles said I'm safe at 255 degrees"

Dodge............."We don't have an employee on the payroll by the name of Dick Winkles....do you happen to have anything in writing from SRT stating it's ok to keep driving when the warning system tells you it's overheating?"

At this point, as much as I know we respect Dick Winkles and his opinions, he is no longer a FCA employee. What would be helpful is if SRT came out with written confirmation that these temps are within spec and specifically what will the car do if you exceed 255 degrees (limp mode, shut down, play the William Tell Overture, etc).

[ViperGeorge]

Quick question regarding the actual idiot light and the computer. If the idiot light comes on, does the PCM store that information?.......and if you continue to drive the car and the cars temps continue to go up, does the PCM store that info?

My point is if you overheat the car to the point it damages something (head gaskets, warp heads, bearings, etc), does the PCM store that information and can it be used by the dealer to see that you continued driving the car even when the idiot light came on? Most of these cars are still under warranty....but I can see that being denied if the PCM has records of the car being over heated and showing continued 100% throttle position, etc. The way Dodge operates, I would be very careful on abusing the car on the premise that the warranty will cover it.

I can just see the conversation now with Dodge:

Car owner....... "My idiot light came on and I kept running at the track because Dick Winkles said I'm safe at 255 degrees"

Dodge............."We don't have an employee on the payroll by the name of Dick Winkles....do you happen to have anything in writing from SRT stating it's ok to keep driving when the warning system tells you it's overheating?"

At this point, as much as I know we respect Dick Winkles and his opinions, he is no longer a FCA employee. What would be helpful is if SRT came out with written confirmation that these temps are within spec and specifically what will the car do if you exceed 255 degrees (limp mode, shut down, play the William Tell Overture, etc).

SRT's acceptance criteria in testing is a target max temp for a 20 minute track run in 100 degree ambient of 250. This I have in writing but won't share so as not to compromise my source.

[ViperGeorge]

I hit 270 on day one….moved to a 15/50 and it now runs at 255-260.

I too switched to 15W50 Mobil 1. My oil temp was 258 at 240 coolant during the most recent track day. Not sure how that equates to 263 at 243 coolant in a previous session with 10W40. Maybe a little lower but not much. Of course I am running headers. This may, as I've posted, bleed heat into the coolant lines that go to the oil cooler.

[Snakebit10]

^^ Good points Trackaire. Definitely a probable scenario. I forgot Winkles is no longer with FCA.

[VENOM V]

SRT's acceptance criteria in testing is a target max temp for a 20 minute track run in 100 degree ambient of 250. This I have in writing but won't share so as not to compromise my source.

George, did they give you a target max for oil for their criteria testing?

[Bigdogmark]

The headers that people are running, are they jet hot coated or have any type of thermal barrier coating to minimize heat loss into the engine compartment?

[TrackAire]

SRT's acceptance criteria in testing is a target max temp for a 20 minute track run in 100 degree ambient of 250. This I have in writing but won't share so as not to compromise my source.

So for those that don't have the super cool kid decoder ring secret handshake top secret password note, everyone is back to square one, including you. If you take your written confirmation with you to your local Dodge dealer for a replacement motor, do you think it will be useful in getting a new engine if yours lets go and the computer showed long term overheating with continual throttle position setting of 100%? Hell, people are getting grief when the rear window explodes due to Dodges defective rear window defrost system. Good luck explaining you knew the car was getting hot but you kept your foot in it and now you deserve a new engine.

All this bullshit can go away if SRT puts in writing what is a safe maximum temperature and how will the car respond if it goes over that threshold so you know you have to shut it down. My gut is telling me whatever is in your owners manual is what is going to hold up in arbitration when you're trying to argue for a new motor. The owners manual is written in such a way (vague) that the manufacturer will always win if you exceed the parameters of what the manual lists.

[AZTVR]

Dodge............."We don't have an employee on the payroll by the name of Dick Winkles....do you happen to have anything in writing from SRT stating it's ok to keep driving when the warning system tells you it's overheating?"

At this point, as much as I know we respect Dick Winkles and his opinions, he is no longer a FCA employee. What would be helpful is if SRT came out with written confirmation that these temps are within spec and specifically what will the car do if you exceed 255 degrees (limp mode, shut down, play the William Tell Overture, etc).

As far as warranty goes, I believe that it would be reasonable for Dodge to hold the owner responsible to follow the instructions provided with the vehicle.
Below are the words in the owner's manual:

• Engine Temperature
This telltale warns of an overheated engine condition. As temperatures rise and the gauge approaches H, or 260°F, this telltale will illuminate, and a single chime will sound after reaching a set threshold. Further overheating will cause the temperature gauge to pass H, or 260°F.A continuous chime will occur until the engine is allowed to cool. If the telltale turns on while driving, safely pull over and stop the vehicle."

The User's Guide says:

- Engine Temperature Warning Light
• This light warns of an overheated engine condition.
• If the light turns on or flashes continuously while driving, safely pull over and stop the
vehicle. If the A/C system is on, turn it off. Also, shift the transmission into NEUTRAL
and idle the vehicle. If the temperature reading does not return to normal, turn the
engine off immediately.
• We recommend that you do not operate the vehicle or engine damage will occur. Have
the vehicle serviced immediately.

[ViperGeorge]

George, did they give you a target max for oil for their criteria testing?

No they did not say anything about oil temp.

[ViperGeorge]

So for those that don't have the super cool kid decoder ring secret handshake top secret password note, everyone is back to square one, including you. If you take your written confirmation with you to your local Dodge dealer for a replacement motor, do you think it will be useful in getting a new engine if yours lets go and the computer showed long term overheating with continual throttle position setting of 100%? Hell, people are getting grief when the rear window explodes due to Dodges defective rear window defrost system. Good luck explaining you knew the car was getting hot but you kept your foot in it and now you deserve a new engine.

All this bullshit can go away if SRT puts in writing what is a safe maximum temperature and how will the car respond if it goes over that threshold so you know you have to shut it down. My gut is telling me whatever is in your owners manual is what is going to hold up in arbitration when you're trying to argue for a new motor. The owners manual is written in such a way (vague) that the manufacturer will always win if you exceed the parameters of what the manual lists.

This is why when the idiot light comes on I back off and let the engine cool. I'm not going to tempt fate. So now you know why some of us are talking about this issue. It is not a question of whether the engine can take 255 or not, it shouldn't be hitting 240 in the first place. The idiot light is a warning I take seriously even if there is a slight cushion built in.

[ViperGeorge]

The headers that people are running, are they jet hot coated or have any type of thermal barrier coating to minimize heat loss into the engine compartment?

This is a good question. My understanding is the Jet Hot coating is the way to go for the best heat barrier. I don't believe Bellangers use this coating though and my understanding is that the American Racing ones are not coated unless you decide to send them in for a coating at additional cost. At least that is the way it was on the American Racing headers I had on my Gen 4.

[VENOM V]

Is it just me or is there anybody else out there that feels that coolant temps in the order of 250 Deg is a bet extreme. I understand that at that temp the car is still holding it's coolant so it's not overheating per say. But how are these elevated temps going to effect the engine as far as longevity and reliability down the road?

I'm going with Dick Winkles, he's the authority. 255 F is the limit, per the man. Seeing how no one has hit 250 F yet, I'm not worried about it. As I said, I'll back off at 245 F if I ever see that temp.

[FLATOUT]

[QUOTE=VENOM V;169873]

Is it just me or is there anybody else out there that feels that coolant temps in the order of 250 Deg is a bet extreme. I understand that at that temp the car is still holding it's coolant so it's not overheating per say. But how are these elevated temps going to effect the engine as far as longevity and reliability down the road?[/QUOTES]

I'm going with Dick Winkles, he's the authority. 255 F is the limit, per the man. Seeing how no one has hit 250 F yet, I'm not worried about it. As I said, I'll back off at 245 F if I ever see that temp.

Thanks, I don't know how many times we have to say it. If they (factory folks) aren't worried, I'm not worried. Interested yes, worried no.

[TrackAire]

ViperGeorge,

I am one of those that does think this is an issue. Maybe I don't understand how an engine is suppose to work, but IMO doing 5 sessions a day at 250 degree ECT would make the day stressful to me. And we really haven't even discussed what the high sustained oil temps can do.

Regardless of what the owners manual suggests is high (260 degrees), I too would back down at the first LED warning light. At those temps, the chances of a hose, hose clamp, radiator cap, etc letting go becomes even more of an issue in my eyes. Besides the potential damage that can happen to the engine, spraying coolant onto your tires when at track speeds can literally be deadly, especially with the rate of acceleration a Viper can attain on the track.

So, who is going to be the brave one to keep running on the track after the first warning LED and see if the temps stabilize at around 250 degrees or will they keep climbing and get the dreaded continuous chime and 260 degrees on the temp gauge??

[VENOM V]

ViperGeorge,

I am one of those that does think this is an issue. Maybe I don't understand how an engine is suppose to work, but IMO doing 5 sessions a day at 250 degree ECT would make the day stressful to me. And we really haven't even discussed what the high sustained oil temps can do.

Regardless of what the owners manual suggests is high (260 degrees), I too would back down at the first LED warning light. At those temps, the chances of a hose, hose clamp, radiator cap, etc letting go becomes even more of an issue in my eyes. Besides the potential damage that can happen to the engine, spraying coolant onto your tires when at track speeds can literally be deadly, especially with the rate of acceleration a Viper can attain on the track.

So, who is going to be the brave one to keep running on the track after the first warning LED and see if the temps stabilize at around 250 degrees or will they keep climbing and get the dreaded continuous chime and 260 degrees on the temp gauge??

I volunteer George, LOL. I do thermal testing on the robots that I design, and thermal systems will climb in temp until they reach an equilibrium. There's no evidence yet that they will keep climbing in the Viper, my guess is that they will plateau before they hit 250 F even on a hot day with a good driver on a long session. I will allow my car to go beyond 240 F and will record the data with my Aim Solo DL, and will post.

If you look at Imcgrew's post below, you can see temps plateauing and not rising much on laps 5 - 10. This would suggest that it's close to reaching steady state, and shouldn't continue to climb by much. Peak temps on his data are:

Lap Temp
5 237 F
6 239 F
7 237 F
8 241 F
9 241 F
10 235 F

Here is some data at Indy GP Course, as you can see lap 7 and 8 ect temps rose to 241, this happened around 5 out of 8 sessions for the weekend. Ive put the 241 lap in red and listed ect, iat, rpm, throttle position. The car does seem to cool down on its own on the long straights which is good, indy gp is full of 2nd gear turns, which probably dont help. Those laps was about 6-7 seconds off my fastest laps so im guessing there was possibly traffic, im starting to wonder how much being behind another car effects airflow? Ill put a gauge on my video for ECT next time to see what happens.