It should be worse!

[lmcgrew79]

Let me get this straight, the blinking light at 240 water temps is ok? Every time ive seen it come on i back it off for a few turns. What happens at 245 or 250? Im just wondering if the car will go into the limp mode or what happens at certain temps?

[Rapidrezults]

It's like I'm reading about some other model of car, these stories are foreign to me. How can it be that for two years I've been tracking my Viper and this month is the first time I've heard of this "overheating" issue? I tracked at Laguna Seca recently with 17 Vipers. No one overheated except for the C7 Z06, which went into limp mode and puked all of the coolant out right next to me in the paddock. He hit 267 F water and 309 F oil. Buttonwillow with 78 Vipers, no overheating issues on a single car. 2 C7 Z06s in limp mode at Buttonwillow in cool weather. I've tracked with other Vipers in 107 F and no one overheated. Laguna Seca, Buttonwillow, Thunderhill, Sears Point, Spring Mountain. Never had an issue other than touching 240 F coolant at Thunderhill in 106 F ambient, so I backed off for a lap and it immediately cooled. Then went hard for another 5 or 10 minutes and never touched 240 F water again. I did have an 02 sensor go that day, replaced under warranty the next week. Easy peasy. The only issue I've ever had with the Viper was that 02 sensor, no melted wires, no other issues at all. I just change the oil and brake pads, and an occasional alignment. And drive the wheels off of it, over 14,000 miles many of which are on the track.

This all seems blown out of proportion, only a couple of folks have had issues. As Darius said, Camaros run hot as his Z/28 hit 290 F oil (my modded Camaro required 2 oil coolers and custom shrouding to get the oil temps reasonable), C7 Vettes run hot. But I haven't seen it with Vipers.

And I know that this has been said, but to remind folks that Dick Winkles stated to keep the coolant temp below 255 F and oil below 300 F. I am nowhere near those values and I haven't read anyone else approaching them either.

This reminded me of the Buttonwillow event where Tommy Kendall was giving rides in the orange TA. It seemed like that car was running in every run group with very little rest. It seemed they were running that car all day non-stop. I did not get a ride but from what I was told he was pushing pretty hard. I don't recall them ever talking about overheating issues with it, although I do remember it went into limp mode at some point, not sure why. With that said, it was very cool those days.

[ViperGeorge]

There are a few of us that are seeing temps that we think are too high, maybe not as high as Dick Winkles says are too high but we think our cars should not be running this hot. Speaking for myself this is not the first Viper I have tracked and none of the others got anywhere near as warm. 240 plus on coolant and 260 plus on oil is not what we were expecting given experience with older Vipers on the same tracks. BlueTA#1 started these threads to see if others were seeing the same thing and to seek input on how the temps might be lowered. These are fair questions.

If you are not seeing temps that you feel are too warm then that is great. There are however others that are. This includes modified cars and bone stock cars. When I was last at the track with my TA (headers and Arrow controller) a friend was also there with his bone stock 14 GTS. He was seeing temps approaching 240 in about 15 minutes as well. Is it specific cars that do this? Is it the way some drivers are driving? I don't know but I would like to find out. I drive High Plains Raceway the same in my TA that I did in my 09 ACR (also with headers and Mopar controller) and the two cars behave differently with regards to temps.

I would prefer to see my TA running temps closer to the 200-210 my old ACR ran. Hopefully we can figure out some way of making that a reality.

[ViperSmith]

George, would your elevation have something to do with temps even in a stock car?

[Simms]

Maybe it's just an issue that the airflow/design of the Gen V front is just not as sufficient as the previous Gens and elevated temps could happen to some when pushed hard? Higher than we are used to, but not in the danger zone.

[lmcgrew79]

Here is some data at Indy GP Course, as you can see lap 7 and 8 ect temps rose to 241, this happened around 5 out of 8 sessions for the weekend. Ive put the 241 lap in red and listed ect, iat, rpm, throttle position. The car does seem to cool down on its own on the long straights which is good, indy gp is full of 2nd gear turns, which probably dont help. Those laps was about 6-7 seconds off my fastest laps so im guessing there was possibly traffic, im starting to wonder how much being behind another car effects airflow? Ill put a gauge on my video for ECT next time to see what happens.

[ironpeddler]

This thread is lame. I also want to know the limits of the cooling system even if my abilities can not get me there, yet. Is this how the Viper community helps out its fellow members when they have a problem?? I have a feeling that you could buy a Porsche, add tires and tune and you would have no problems keeping it cool on the track, so maybe Blue has the right idea, no need to flame him for it. Go buy a vette, viper, gt500, add those same things you did on a Porsche, the car will heatsoak, pull timing, loose power, etc.

SRT's stock cooling system sucks, bottom line. It is only sufficient for STOCK cars. I am sure that Dodge knows that a good amount of people will tune, change tires, the basic crap. What does Viper exchange do to their race car...why dont they come out and tell us? Why don't they put a package together and sell it?? Charge $7k for dynamic suspension, how about $5k-$10k for a cooling system that actually works on the track?? You should be able to change tires and tune on the stock cooling system and be fine. Adding a TT system or blower, probably a different story, going to need to upgrade the cooling system. But basically SRT put the bare minimum cooling system in there, that will only suffice on stock cars. Another American car company cutting corners to try and keep cost down, but people need to realize what they skimped on to keep cost down. Porsche didn't cut corners and that is why their GT3 car is what like $175k? I bet you it wont get "too hot" or "overheat" if you added tires and/or tune. But imagine if Dodge put a legit cooling system in the car, now price increase of what $20-$30k?? So now vipers are $120k-$140k Dodge would sell even less of them. I get why they do what they do, but that doesn't make the cooling system good, it is still a piece of junk. People here be like, nah brah, my cooling system is great, I don't track my car, I have no real world data, I am just a Viper fanboi...that dude Blue, he just doesn't know what he is talking about or it is just "his" car... But it sounds like to me, that BLue is a pretty good/respected driver, probably better than you are. It is ok, don't let your feelings get hurt. It sounds like to me that this affects more than just Blue. It sounds like he represents the viper community well on the track. I would think that the Viper community as a whole would try and help him find a solution so he stays with the Viper instead of jumping to a Porsche.

Well, you car didn't overheat, it just got too hot. LOLLOL. OK, what kind of crap is that. Does it really make it any better that the car didn't "overheat" it just got "too hot". Yeah, maybe because if it overheats it goes into limp mode, but if it is just to hot then you just lose power. I guess that could be considered a bonus LOL, to some. But, IMHO it is all the same...a problem that needs to be fixed correctly.

[lmcgrew79]

Here is some data at Indy GP Course, as you can see lap 7 and 8 ect temps rose to 241, this happened around 5 out of 8 sessions for the weekend. Ive put the 241 lap in red and listed ect, iat, rpm, throttle position. The car does seem to cool down on its own on the long straights which is good, indy gp is full of 2nd gear turns, which probably dont help. Those laps was about 6-7 seconds off my fastest laps so im guessing there was possibly traffic, im starting to wonder how much being behind another car effects airflow? Ill put a gauge on my video for ECT next time to see what happens.

Ok i looked at the video and was stuck behind a 991 gt3 that didnt want to point me for most of the lap, as you can see in the throttle position percentage im not on throttle as much as the other laps plus behind a car which is effecting airflow. Could be onto something heading to track this weekend and will see what happens. gt3.jpg

[ACR Steve]

Being behind a car effects airflow immensely. It doesn't mean you have to be on a bumper. Draft starts many car lengths back. Draft =bad airflow for the radiator but good for aerodynamics. Us racers are always watching temps when we are in a pack drafting with bad airflow.

[ViperGeorge]

The last time I was at High Plains I was not in traffic much at all. There were only 50 cars registered and they were split in 3 groups. So being in a draft did not effect my temps one way or the other. Altitude may be a factor, I don't know, but BlueTA#1 runs in Texas. Altitude in Texas is no where near as high as Colorado yet he still generates some heat. I still need to pull the tow hooks off to see what impact that has.

[darbgnik]

This thread is lame. I also want to know the limits of the cooling system even if my abilities can not get me there, yet. Is this how the Viper community helps out its fellow members when they have a problem?? I have a feeling that you could buy a Porsche, add tires and tune and you would have no problems keeping it cool on the track, so maybe Blue has the right idea, no need to flame him for it. Go buy a vette, viper, gt500, add those same things you did on a Porsche, the car will heatsoak, pull timing, loose power, etc.

SRT's stock cooling system sucks, bottom line. It is only sufficient for STOCK cars. I am sure that Dodge knows that a good amount of people will tune, change tires, the basic crap. What does Viper exchange do to their race car...why dont they come out and tell us? Why don't they put a package together and sell it?? Charge $7k for dynamic suspension, how about $5k-$10k for a cooling system that actually works on the track?? You should be able to change tires and tune on the stock cooling system and be fine. Adding a TT system or blower, probably a different story, going to need to upgrade the cooling system. But basically SRT put the bare minimum cooling system in there, that will only suffice on stock cars. Another American car company cutting corners to try and keep cost down, but people need to realize what they skimped on to keep cost down. Porsche didn't cut corners and that is why their GT3 car is what like $175k? I bet you it wont get "too hot" or "overheat" if you added tires and/or tune. But imagine if Dodge put a legit cooling system in the car, now price increase of what $20-$30k?? So now vipers are $120k-$140k Dodge would sell even less of them. I get why they do what they do, but that doesn't make the cooling system good, it is still a piece of junk. People here be like, nah brah, my cooling system is great, I don't track my car, I have no real world data, I am just a Viper fanboi...that dude Blue, he just doesn't know what he is talking about or it is just "his" car... But it sounds like to me, that BLue is a pretty good/respected driver, probably better than you are. It is ok, don't let your feelings get hurt. It sounds like to me that this affects more than just Blue. It sounds like he represents the viper community well on the track. I would think that the Viper community as a whole would try and help him find a solution so he stays with the Viper instead of jumping to a Porsche.

Well, you car didn't overheat, it just got too hot. LOLLOL. OK, what kind of crap is that. Does it really make it any better that the car didn't "overheat" it just got "too hot". Yeah, maybe because if it overheats it goes into limp mode, but if it is just to hot then you just lose power. I guess that could be considered a bonus LOL, to some. But, IMHO it is all the same...a problem that needs to be fixed correctly.

OK, I'll bite. I think your input into this thread is just as valuable as all the guys who told him to go ahead and buy a Porsche. Upon what do you base this assumption on? The two threads you mentioned? Do you even own one of these cars, or track it? I do.

I happen to be one of the faster guys at my local track, mostly a 2nd and 3rd gear track, I currently go faster than the largest HDPE operators' owner said was possible with a bone stock car, and mine is bone stock. I personally have had no cooling issues, but I have not dismissed the OP's issue, and hope he finds a resolution, as the next track I take my car to, maybe I will overheat. What is happening to him, sucks for him, but could be good for the community.

If you want to keep this thread constructive, how about keeping your assumptions out of the discussion? Unless of course you have an assumption on how to fix his issue, then by all means, lets hear it.

Making pronouncements on something you have no personal experience with...... Ya, that's constructive.


And I will reiterate, just in case you only skim over the whole paragraph just enough to respond, I believe he has an issue, have made a couple obvious guesses as to correlations and possible solutions. I have also offered my own experience, which wasn't of any benefit. What have you said exactly?

[ironpeddler]

Actually that statement I made was wrong. The cooling system is not even sufficient for STOCK cars. Ok, supposedly some are ok and some are not. People have posted in this thread, completely stock, that they are having issues also, right? So I don't think that I made an assumption. Don't get your feelings hurt cause I said the cooling system sucks, because it does. Maybe "suck" is a bad word that offends people to much, should have said "is not good enough" or something of the sort. Cooler in Canada, where your local track is at, maybe the obvious reason you never have a problem??

[ViperSmith]

Actually that statement I made was wrong. The cooling system is not even sufficient for STOCK cars. Ok, supposedly some are ok and some are not. People have posted in this thread, completely stock, that they are having issues also, right? So I don't think that I made an assumption. Don't get your feelings hurt cause I said the cooling system sucks, because it does. Maybe "suck" is a bad word that offends people to much, should have said "is not good enough" or something of the sort. Cooler in Canada, where your local track is at, maybe the obvious reason you never have a problem??

There are 2-3 reported stock cars that seem to be running hot in this thread while tracking. This is hardly an epidemic for stock vehicles. Plenty of guys beating their cars to death not having issues running stock.

Majority of reported issues seem to stem from cars that are modified, from PCM to headers. While it sucks for them, it is a bit different than discussing stock cars running hot.

And as FLATOUT has said, the car even at 250* is far from hitting limp mode which is plaguing the Z06s.

Being said, hopefully it is something minor.

[darbgnik]

Actually, my response was to your rant saying this thread was lame. If you reread my post, never did I say there wasn't an issue, quite the opposite.

What I did call into question was how constructive your post was. Read what you wrote. You were calling out members dismissing the problem, and fanboys. You pointed out how constructive that group was, I was doing the same about your post. And yes, while pointing out how constructive your post was, I also pointed out your personal experience on the subject........ To which you seem to take exception to.

[Steve M]

Actually that statement I made was wrong. The cooling system is not even sufficient for STOCK cars. Ok, supposedly some are ok and some are not. People have posted in this thread, completely stock, that they are having issues also, right? So I don't think that I made an assumption. Don't get your feelings hurt cause I said the cooling system sucks, because it does. Maybe "suck" is a bad word that offends people to much, should have said "is not good enough" or something of the sort. Cooler in Canada, where your local track is at, maybe the obvious reason you never have a problem??

I don't think it is a cooling system issue though based on what I've seen in this thread. Look at all of the things that have been addressed as potential fixes:

1. Underdrive pulley to reduce potential water pump cavitation issues - did not help
2. Hard pipes to replace radiator hoses in case they were collapsing under high RPM operation (known issue with some Gen 4 cars) - did not help
3. Replaced radiator with a larger, triple pass unit - did not help

To me, that points to an airflow issue - people have run modded Gen 4 Vipers without issue on the stock cooling system, and they've been just fine. The Gen 5 cooling system is a carry-over from the Gen 4 from the looks of it, minus some revisions to the cooling passages in the block/heads that should only help cooling of those systems. The only major difference is the opening in the nose of each...I think it'd be interesting if someone took some measurements to see just how much area the Gen 4 has vs. the Gen 5 to get airflow to the radiator.

I could also be underestimating the affect of the additional 45HP the Gen 5 has over the Gen 4 stock, but I'm just not convinced it is the primary cause of this particular issue.

[XSnake]

Blue, do you have any vids or data of you lapping?

[ViperGeorge]

I don't think it is a cooling system issue though based on what I've seen in this thread. Look at all of the things that have been addressed as potential fixes:

1. Underdrive pulley to reduce potential water pump cavitation issues - did not help
2. Hard pipes to replace radiator hoses in case they were collapsing under high RPM operation (known issue with some Gen 4 cars) - did not help
3. Replaced radiator with a larger, triple pass unit - did not help

To me, that points to an airflow issue - people have run modded Gen 4 Vipers without issue on the stock cooling system, and they've been just fine. The Gen 5 cooling system is a carry-over from the Gen 4 from the looks of it, minus some revisions to the cooling passages in the block/heads that should only help cooling of those systems. The only major difference is the opening in the nose of each...I think it'd be interesting if someone took some measurements to see just how much area the Gen 4 has vs. the Gen 5 to get airflow to the radiator.

I could also be underestimating the affect of the additional 45HP the Gen 5 has over the Gen 4 stock, but I'm just not convinced it is the primary cause of this particular issue.

I tend to mostly agree with you the issues are likely the result of airflow AND the tightness of the Gen 5 engine compartment. Things just seem more cramped in there so I suspect airflow around the engine is reduced some. There are differences in hood design and grille design between the Gen 4 and 5, could these contribute? The GTS and SRT hoods on a Gen 5 don't seem to make a difference as both types seem to reach 240 when driven hard. In terms of the additional HP, my old ACR was doing close to 700 HP at the crank yet it ran cool.

Now it is possible that altitude may be effecting me at High Plains here in Colorado but on the other hand higher altitudes reduce power and this should reduce heat and my ACR had no problems at the same track.

I am surprised by BlueTA#1's results with the larger radiator. I thought for sure this would make up for airflow issues and it's increased capacity should have provided more heat handling capacity. I was ready to pull the trigger on that mod but now I don't know what to do.

Again, not to be redundant, but while 240-250 coolant won't cause a limp mode I think everyone would agree that 200-210 would be better and provide for more of a cushion.

[VENOM V]

actually that statement i made was wrong. The cooling system is not even sufficient for stock cars. Ok, supposedly some are ok and some are not. People have posted in this thread, completely stock, that they are having issues also, right? So i don't think that i made an assumption. Don't get your feelings hurt cause i said the cooling system sucks, because it does. Maybe "suck" is a bad word that offends people to much, should have said "is not good enough" or something of the sort. Cooler in canada, where your local track is at, maybe the obvious reason you never have a problem??

lol, seriously?

[SSGNRDZ_28]

Like Mjorgensen NineBall and multiple others have suggested it is time to open up the front by reducing restrictions. Tow hooks are easy, but can the black portion of the grille be removed without being destroyed as a test or is it a structural part of the car? Looks like it only costs ~$100 (P/N 68141085AB) so buying one to cut up wouldn't be the end of the world. If that works it would be up to the user to modify his / hers or the aftermarket to come up with something that bolts in, or just have a cutout one for the track if it isn't too painful to install.

[VENOM V]

Todd, I wonder if you would have issues if you were running at that pace for many laps...or perhaps you already do.

Hi Bruce,

I typically run 4 to 5 25-minute sessions per track day. Once in a while I'll do double duty. My friend Mike and I ran my Viper at Laguna Seca in two different adjacent run groups, so that day 10 25-minute sessions, almost equivilent to 5 50-minute sessions with a five minute break in the middle. And my friend is a former Porsche Cup racer, so both of us drove hard the entire time.

Steve makes a good point about differences in airflow between generations. The Gen V engineers tuned the design based on their testing at high ambient temps. Perhaps this generation runs warmer than previous, but after talking with Erich Heuschele about the subject, I have zero concerns with running up to 245 F coolant, which is nowhere near the 255 F that Dick Winkles says is the safe limit. Again, highest I've seen is 240 F, not worried about that in the slightest.

[ViperGeorge]

Like Mjorgensen NineBall and multiple others have suggested it is time to open up the front by reducing restrictions. Tow hooks are easy, but can the black portion of the grille be removed without being destroyed as a test or is it a structural part of the car? Looks like it only costs ~$100 (P/N 68141085AB) so buying one to cut up wouldn't be the end of the world. If that works it would be up to the user to modify his / hers or the aftermarket to come up with something that bolts in, or just have a cutout one for the track if it isn't too painful to install.

I actually have a spare grille already. I bought an extra for my 14 GTS so I could paint it white to match the car. Took out the original. While I could certainly hack it up I doubt it would look very nice. My TA is not a dedicated track car I do drive it to VOA events now and again so I wouldn't want it looking terrible. Changing it does require removal of the front bumper cover which while maybe not hard is a pain. I am thinking about tow hook removal (although BlueTA#1 and my friend only have one where I have two and they were both seeing 240). I am also thinking about hacking out the honeycomb from the center of the V. That probably would look ok and not be too hard to do with the grille installed.

[ViperGeorge]

Hi Bruce,

I typically run 4 to 5 25-minute sessions per track day. Once in a while I'll do double duty. My friend Mike and I ran my Viper at Laguna Seca in two different adjacent run groups, so that day 10 25-minute sessions, almost equivilent to 5 50-minute sessions with a five minute break in the middle. And my friend is a former Porsche Cup racer, so both of us drove hard the entire time.

Steve makes a good point about differences in airflow between generations. The Gen V engineers tuned the design based on their testing at high ambient temps. Perhaps this generation runs warmer than previous, but after talking with Erich Heuschele about the subject, I have zero concerns with running up to 245 F coolant, which is nowhere near the 255 F that Dick Winkles says is the safe limit. Again, highest I've seen is 240 F, not worried about that in the slightest.

245 is only 10 degrees from 255, that seems pretty close to me as it is only an additional 4% increase. I think if I ran the car hard in a double stint I might very well reach that. As it is when the car gets over 240 I back it off. Maybe next time I will keep pushing to see how close to 255 it does get. On the other hand what happens at 255? Does the engine go boom or does it got into to limp mode? Either would be bad if in traffic at speed on the track.

[SSGNRDZ_28]

I actually have a spare grille already. I bought an extra for my 14 GTS so I could paint it white to match the car. Took out the original. While I could certainly hack it up I doubt it would look very nice. My TA is not a dedicated track car I do drive it to VOA events now and again so I wouldn't want it looking terrible. Changing it does require removal of the front bumper cover which while maybe not hard is a pain. I am thinking about tow hook removal (although BlueTA#1 and my friend only have one where I have two and they were both seeing 240). I am also thinking about hacking out the honeycomb from the center of the V. That probably would look ok and not be too hard to do with the grille installed.

Regarding the tow hooks it is hard to say what they do to the aero, a small change could be significant but maybe not. When you remove them I'd remove the entire thing.

Same with the grille. What's behind the grille? Do you think removing it or cutting out the V would increase airflow? At least the tow hooks are an easy change, and if you cut out the grille you could tape up the V session to session to see if there's a difference.

Aero is funny and can either be numb to changes or super sensitive to a seemingly minor change. In IndyCar radiator blockers are internal to the sidepods and are adjusted all the time to get the ideal temperatures, sometimes only by fractions of an inch to change 10s of degrees. 70 degrees C water (or as cool as possible) and 110-115 degrees C oil temp are ideal for power on those engines but sometimes they run water hotter to reduce drag induced by extra cooling.

[ViperDC]

lol, seriously?

Pretty funny this guy is calling people out when all he contributed was a bad troll job.

[ACR Steve]

Remember the radiator relies on air movement through its grills to cool . If to much positive air is building up behind the radiator it could be impeding cooling . The needs a way to keep flowing once its past the radiator. We work with this a lot on our race cars .