Who's next for Arrow Heads & Cam

[Jack B]

Again:

1. Just a guess, the arrow cam will show less hp (nos does not like exh overlap) on nos than the OEM cam. In other words, a 250 shot might not be 250 with the arrow cam.

The increase in intake valve size does not help the nos scheme.

2. You could easily bump the nos another 50-75 hp, be very close to the HC/nos hp and come out $12k ahead

Doesn't that make sense?

I don't understand your argument. Unless you are going to run around with your finger on the nitro button 24/7, you would still benefit from the additional power increase from the H/C with a flick of your foot.

[mjorgensen]

I know that you're responding to someone else but with all do respect, I realize car for car can be different but there is a significant difference here. For the price of this kit 110 rwhp is a deal, 95 rwhp is fair, but I have to agree that this kit would not be worth the money for 70 rwhp.... hfc's or not! If I'm missing something here please correct me as I do make mistakes often.

I do have access to another dyno I could try about 75 miles away, the shop we use has done cars and then taken them to the other shop just to see and a 600rwhp car on their dyno made north of 700 at the other dyno! I can haul all the cars to the other dyno and then we can have huge numbers to post :-)

[ViperDog]

As far as the rwhp gains like I have said before, dyno to dyno means nothing, its the gains on "your" dyno. We start with a lower baseline number (baseline every build we do N/A or S/C unless the owner does not want to) so using the calculation to get to the 635-645 factory crank number on the gains number also you end up with a 90-95rwhp gain, same as you will find on any health car and the Arrow Stage2 package. We are 5hp down because we use cats on 99% of the cars we build for multiple reasons. Any new car getting this package will gain 15-25 more rwhp with the accumulation of miles after break in. Parts are parts, no magic bullet here, it's just the execution and how thoroughly you complete the package/install. We are finished with the 2nd package and started on the 3rd new ACR today, so far we have been very happy with all the work Arrow put into building this for you guys, and so are the buyers of MANY new 16' and ACRs that we have coming, very very busy times here and thanks to all of you for trusting us with your new baby's. :-)

Mark, what is a "health car" especially a Viper? Are you referring to cars with cats?

[mjorgensen]

Mark, what is a "health car" especially a Viper? Are you referring to cars with cats?

LOL, Healthy (making full power stock)

[DFox]

I keep seeing prices thrown around and mention of core exchanges. What's the price for the stage 2 kit(installed/Not Installed) ?

[FLATOUT]

I keep seeing prices thrown around and mention of core exchanges. What's the price for the stage 2 kit(installed/Not Installed) ?

A hair under $14,000 installed at ViperExchange if you need everything. If you already have full exhaust price will be less. Install is roughly 2k.

[VENOM V]

Guys,

Got a question. Has anyone tried a heads, longtube headers and a tune package, without cam? Not sure if it would be worth it. I see that headers alone are worth about 50 HP / 50 Ft-Lb at the flywheel. Don't know if I want to do a cam. Any dyno results for this combo?

[Jack B]

Headers will give virtually zero without a tune or Arrow pcm.

Guys,

Got a question. Has anyone tried a heads, longtube headers and a tune package, without cam? Not sure if it would be worth it. I see that headers alone are worth about 50 HP / 50 Ft-Lb at the flywheel. Don't know if I want to do a cam. Any dyno results for this combo?

[Stealth78]

I do have access to another dyno I could try about 75 miles away, the shop we use has done cars and then taken them to the other shop just to see and a 600rwhp car on their dyno made north of 700 at the other dyno! I can haul all the cars to the other dyno and then we can have huge numbers to post :-)

I don't care about who has a higher dyno reading and neither do I care what dyno is being used. If dyno "A" has a baseline of 500 and an after H/C of 600, and dyno "B" has a baseline of 525 and an after H/C of 575 there's a problem here if two vehicles had the same mods made and there is that much of a difference between the "improvements"!

[Stealth78]

This has already been discussed, however:

1. Arrow will never make back the money they have spent in R&D.

2. There is no other NA solution in the near future.

3. The package is as close to oem as it gets. It is street able as oem. The ohio voa was able to drive the arrow mule.

4 The package gets a one year warranty - please give me what warranty your solution has.

5. Probably a more cost effective solution is HPT and headers, however, that is approx 60-70 hp less and will cost approx 4-5k.

6. You are naive in focusing on peak hp, look at % increase from 4000 to 6200 rpm.

Now I want your solution with costs.

The one thing about this post that caught my attention is #4. I thought if you had this package installed from the factory that you retained your factory warranty? Is this not true, is it only a one year warranty? If so that sucks for us guys that only drive our cars 3,000-5,000 miles per year.

[Steve M]

The one thing about this post that caught my attention is #4. I thought if you had this package installed from the factory that you retained your factory warranty? Is this not true, is it only a one year warranty? If so that sucks for us guys that only drive our cars 3,000-5,000 miles per year.

From FLATOUT:

Yes Sir, with a 12 Month/12,000 mile warranty from ViperExchange if purchased through us and installed here. Going to be an incredible setup and with the guys from Arrow doing all of the R&D and calibration it's as good as something like this is going to get.

Call Bernie and Courtney and I'll get the heads and cam installed on your new ACR before you take delivery.

...and from Mark Jorgensen, who originally said this:

If the package is installed at one of our dealerships the engine warranty will be honored, there is not an established time/mileage on that finalized though. The rest of the cars drive train could be out though depending on what issue you might have. There are plenty of powerful cars out there now without issues though so I'm not that worried about it.

new redline is 6600

...and later clarified with this:

Hi Jerry,

The parts for the package are $10,991, that price is set for all 3 dealers, if it is an over the counter sale there will be a $2000 core charge for the stock parts. Arrow has not given me an exact number for this on a already driven vehicle, but when we do new Vipers they get all the take off parts back. So if you buy the kit and keep all the stock parts there could be anywhere from $2K -$3k in core charges.

Timeline? Parts have been delayed many times because of the cam core supplier so I have stopped dumping gas on myself lol, I hope the kits are ready to ship soon, lots of cars and people in line and they have been for a long time now.

You can install the kit on your own or have your Tech do it, but there is no implied warranty on anything unless it is installed at 1 of the 3 Arrow authorized dealers like Woodhouse, then you will get a 12/12 warranty.

12/12 warranty is as good as you'll get, and I'll guarantee you the rest of your factory powertrain warranty would be voided. Also, don't forget that you'd never be able to simply swap back the stock PCM if you needed to pass a plug-in emissions test. I know that doesn't affect everyone, but there are a few folks that have to deal with emissions testing.

This mod isn't for everyone, but I will say that even a 12/12 warranty is pretty much unheard of when it comes to doing heads/cam on any car. Most times, it is all on the buyer once you start modding to that level.

[KB Viper]

This has already been discussed, however:

1. Arrow will never make back the money they have spent in R&D.

2. There is no other NA solution in the near future.

3. The package is as close to oem as it gets. It is street able as oem. The ohio voa was able to drive the arrow mule.

4 The package gets a one year warranty - please give me what warranty your solution has.

5. Probably a more cost effective solution is HPT and headers, however, that is approx 60-70 hp less and will cost approx 4-5k.

6. You are naive in focusing on peak hp, look at % increase from 4000 to 6200 rpm.

Now I want your solution with costs.

i usually agree with your out look but your #1 doesn't make sense to me. how do you know arrow won't make their money back? i'm sure they have a certain number of kits to sell before they break even and from what Mark and Andy say they have huge back logs of clients waiting for this package so it can't be far off and i'm sure the Virgina dealer will sell some too. then take into consideration the arrow mule was donated be VE, and that cam specs came out of the VE race car how will they not make money selling kits to us for 10,900 when taking a core charge of 2k or your parts. that tells me that the parts cost them in the ball park of 3ishk and they then sell them to the 3 authorized dealers at a mark up then we pay a mark up to the dealer. not to mention i bet the majority of this R&D will go into the gen IV kit. the one thing I've learned as everyone in the auto/performance biz makes money or they don't take on projects.

[FLATOUT]

I just wrote an article for Viper Mag that goes over a lot of the development process with ViperExchange and Arrow. It highlights our racing program and it's tie in to this package, and all of the subsequent development ViperExchange did with Arrow to bring the package to market. I will say that the margins are not astronomical even though most won't believe me. We did everything we could to keep costs down for the consumer and still make it worth our time as well.

As for dyno's people get so hung up on numbers from one dyno to the next. Unless you are on the same dyno comparing numbers is WORTHLESS. This package on all of the dynos they have been on have consistently proven to make 40-50rwhp over a Bolton on stage 1 type of build. People tend to compare the highest Bolton dyno they have ever seen to the lowest heads and cam dyno they have seen to justify the spend. That's not an accurate comparison for either build.

Stage 1 builds on gen V's typically gain from 35-50rwhp over stock

Stage 2 builds on Gen V's typically gain 75-100rwhp over stock depending on supporting smaller mods.

[Chipster]

Just curious, what's the Virginia dealer? They're an authorized installer?

[J TNT]

And if you add in Gen 3 Vipers , the pay back will be enhanced again . And this is as close to Factory as one could hope for at these power levels !

i usually agree with your out look but your #1 doesn't make sense to me. how do you know arrow won't make their money back? i'm sure they have a certain number of kits to sell before they break even and from what Mark and Andy say they have huge back logs of clients waiting for this package so it can't be far off and i'm sure the Virgina dealer will sell some too. then take into consideration the arrow mule was donated be VE, and that cam specs came out of the VE race car how will they not make money selling kits to us for 10,900 when taking a core charge of 2k or your parts. that tells me that the parts cost them in the ball park of 3ishk and they then sell them to the 3 authorized dealers at a mark up then we pay a mark up to the dealer. not to mention i bet the majority of this R&D will go into the gen IV kit. the one thing I've learned as everyone in the auto/performance biz makes money or they don't take on projects.

[Stealth78]

I'm going to say I'm sorry ahead of time because I can only assume I'm going to piss people off by saying this... so I'm sorry! All this hype about how affordable this is because of the warranty suddenly seems like a bunch of crap to me. Reason 1. I put 2,500 miles on my car last year, that's a sh!tload of money for a 2,500 mile warranty! 2. There have been way too many of these cars having catastrophic engine failures for me to feel comfortable. Could you imagine grenading your engine in month 13 with 2,500 miles on it after you just put a $14,000 upgrade on your $100,000 car and no warranty to cover any of it!?!?!? EEEeeek!

[Voice of Reason]

I'll wait and do this mod in year 6.9, right before my 7 year extended warranty runs out. That way I end up getting an 8 year engine warranty and some extra power with it.

[Jack B]

Life rewards those who take chances. Live in the slow lane and life passes you by - like you I am saying sorry also.

I'm going to say I'm sorry ahead of time because I can only assume I'm going to piss people off by saying this... so I'm sorry! All this hype about how affordable this is because of the warranty suddenly seems like a bunch of crap to me. Reason 1. I put 2,500 miles on my car last year, that's a sh!tload of money for a 2,500 mile warranty! 2. There have been way too many of these cars having catastrophic engine failures for me to feel comfortable. Could you imagine grenading your engine in month 13 with 2,500 miles on it after you just put a $14,000 upgrade on your $100,000 car and no warranty to cover any of it!?!?!? EEEeeek!

[Vprbite]

Life also smacked a professional skydiver into a tree the other day. He was taking chances. And he certainly wasn't rewarded for it.

Nothing to do with your cars, but here may be a few holes in your theory.

[Jack B]

On the other hand he probably lived life to the fullest, better to have loved, then, afraid to love

Life also smacked a professional skydiver into a tree the other day. He was taking chances. And he certainly wasn't rewarded for it.

Nothing to do with your cars, but here may be a few holes in your theory.

[XSnake]

I'm going to say I'm sorry ahead of time because I can only assume I'm going to piss people off by saying this... so I'm sorry! All this hype about how affordable this is because of the warranty suddenly seems like a bunch of crap to me. Reason 1. I put 2,500 miles on my car last year, that's a sh!tload of money for a 2,500 mile warranty! 2. There have been way too many of these cars having catastrophic engine failures for me to feel comfortable. Could you imagine grenading your engine in month 13 with 2,500 miles on it after you just put a $14,000 upgrade on your $100,000 car and no warranty to cover any of it!?!?!? EEEeeek!

How many of the failed engines lasted a year or 2,500 miles?

[Jack B]

A better question is, what is an accurate count of failures that are unrelated to low oil.

As much as we all feel for anyone with a major failure due to low oil, those owners have to take some responsibility for the failure.

To make sense of the issue you have to separate the two failure modes.

How many of the failed engines lasted a year or 2,500 miles?

[XSnake]

A better question is, what is an accurate count of failures that are unrelated to low oil.

As much as we all feel for anyone with a major failure due to low oil, those owners have to take some responsibility for the failure.

I don't disagree. He's just bitching about warranty length so I was addressing just addressing that aspect of the failures.

[FLATOUT]

I can tell you I paid retail for my package same as our customers do and it's the best money I have ever spent on any of my Vipers. 6,000 miles into it now and still smile ear to ear every time I drive it. I'd happily do it all over again if I had to.

[Voice of Reason]

A better question is, what is an accurate count of failures that are unrelated to low oil.

As much as we all feel for anyone with a major failure due to low oil, those owners have to take some responsibility for the failure.

To make sense of the issue you have to separate the two failure modes.

I'll take a 5% ownership then of my failure. 5 qts in 3,700 miles is a failure of the engine, noticing the consumption and filling would have just prolonged when it needed replaced. If that kind of consumption were the norm in every other car on the road highways would be filled with knocking cars. No one checks oil regularly. This isn't 1930 or an engine assembled in my neighbors garage. There shouldn't be catastrophic consumption like this. Period.