Which headers?

[Angleiron]

I am sure this has been beat to death, but my question is not about the HP gain but what can work without any issues. Bellangers have been recommended by more than a few people, but I read that they cannot be wrapped to minimize the potential heat issues underneath the hood.

So I contacted Bellanger and they confirmed that they do not recommend wrapping their headers as it will cause issues due to the heat/cool cycles if the headers are wrapped. So is there a header (and exhaust for that matter) that can be wrapped and not have to worry about warping or any other potential problems?

[FLATOUT]

ARH is stainless, I'd go that route. It doesn't matter what brand you go with they going to create a fair amount of heat. We double wrap the O2's and anything else that gets close to the primaries on our installs.

[Steve M]

I don't think you'll find any header manufacturer that will recommend wrapping their headers. Belanger and ARH both make quality products, but charge accordingly. M&M has a design similar to the Belangers, but at a lower price point.

Headers are a great power adder on these cars, but the heat issue is a pretty big one IMO...people cooking clutch fluid and wiring harnesses just isn't appealing to me. Mods I've done to previous cars that compromised reliability were always the ones I regretted most, and for that reason I'm not sure I'll ever do headers on this car.

[FLATOUT]

I have had headers on 4 seperate Vipers including all three brands. The issues with heat are there but if you install them properly and wrap things accordingly you won't have problems. I have always taken extra steps others don't when it comes to shielding sensitive components and I have enjoyed the poewr increase without issue as have others.

I don't think you'll find any header manufacturer that will recommend wrapping their headers. Belanger and ARH both make quality products, but charge accordingly. M&M has a design similar to the Belangers, but at a lower price point.

Headers are a great power adder on these cars, but the heat issue is a pretty big one IMO...people cooking clutch fluid and wiring harnesses just isn't appealing to me. Mods I've done to previous cars that compromised reliability were always the ones I regretted most, and for that reason I'm not sure I'll ever do headers on this car.

[Steve M]

I have had headers on 4 seperate Vipers including all three brands. The issues with heat are there but if you install them properly and wrap things accordingly you won't have problems. I have always taken extra steps others don't when it comes to shielding sensitive components and I have enjoyed the poewr increase without issue as have others.

Always having to worry about it would just take the fun out of it for me. Reading threads like this:

http://driveviper.com/forums/threads...s+clutch+fluid

With posts like these:

Wrapped the headers. Insulated clutch fluid line with left over header wrap. Why? The headers on this car will boil the clutch fluid after a while, even when using high temp fluid. Getting ready for Dustball, and lost the clutch last time about 1500 miles in....

Last weekend was the first time I had run my car hard since the headers were installed. I could feel the clutch pedal get mushy after a pass, sometimes it wouldn't allow me to grab 3rd gear. That is also with upgraded fluid. Looks like I'll be wrapping mine.

I also have Belanger headers, no cats and new hi temp fluid in the clutch and I used the DEI reflective Velcro closure heat shied on my 3rd gen clutch line.
As long as the car is moving everything is fine but if it sits idling for more than 15mins or so the clutch fluid will boil.

...it sounds like a headache waiting to happen. Everyone has a different tolerance level for this kinda stuff - mine just happens to be pretty low.

[FrgMstr]

Just wrap the headers on install, and do the clutch line while you are there. I was told to so by JonB, did not, and had issues. As SteveM mentioned I don't think any mfg suggests wrapping headers do to corrosion/coating flaking concern. Honestly, had I thought this through beforehand, I would have bought ARH Stainless headers, painted them black, and wrapped those on install. The wrapping part is easy, looks fine if you take your time as well. And it insulates much better than Jethot coating. You are talking about a $100 cost, if you do both sides, that greatly keeps engine compartment temps down and that is a win/win. The downside is that the cats get hot as hell and so do the sills since so much of that heat is not being dumped into the engine bay. It is not as hot as stock, but pretty damn warm. I can tell a significant difference from the side that is wrapped to the side that is not. That said, I will wrap the passenger's side next time as from a performance standpoint, I want the heat out of the engine bay.

Doing Dustball Rally this month, I drove 3500 miles in 7 days, and my clutch fluid was nice and clear when I got home and it felt great the entire trip.

This is the kit I bought, and it has enough wrap to do both headers, but you will need to buy an extra can of spray and additional clamps.

http://www.kylebennett.com/files/hfp...rs_Wrapped.jpg
Finished DEI wrap.

http://www.kylebennett.com/files/hfp..._Line_wrap.jpg
Used remaining DEI wrap on first roll to wrap the clutch line.

http://www.kylebennett.com/files/hfp...0Installed.jpg

Decided to make sure it was good before re-installing the headers and put a DEI reflective wrap on the clutch line as well.

[FLATOUT]

Yep pretty much every one of those has to do with the install and how that was done. Is it pefect? No but definitely really getting it nailed down on the Gen V's at this point. The Gen IV's were easier due to more air flow in the engine bay and the way things were packaged.

I can tell you that mine have been trouble free but I tend to get in there and over do the heat wrapping thing just in case. Although I understand your point there are ways around dealing with those headaches. When we install headers at ViperExchange we constantly take into account customer feedback to tweak our installs to get them to stand up to the harshest environments that customers might put their cars through.

Always having to worry about it would just take the fun out of it for me. Reading threads like this:

http://driveviper.com/forums/threads...s+clutch+fluid

With posts like these:







...it sounds like a headache waiting to happen. Everyone has a different tolerance level for this kinda stuff - mine just happens to be pretty low.

[Vipes]

I have M&M headers, no issues. You could always leave the factory heat shields on if you want, I didn't.

[Steve M]

Yep pretty much every one of those has to do with the install and how that was done. Is it pefect? No but definitely really getting it nailed down on the Gen V's at this point. The Gen IV's were easier due to more air flow in the engine bay and the way things were packaged.

I can tell you that mine have been trouble free but I tend to get in there and over do the heat wrapping thing just in case. Although I understand your point there are ways around dealing with those headaches. When we install headers at ViperExchange we constantly take into account customer feedback to tweak our installs to get them to stand up to the harshest environments that customers might put their cars through.

Fair enough...looks like wrapping the headers (as much as I hate how it looks) and everything else in the vicinity might be the best way to go if I go down this road in the future.

Thanks for the info everyone!

[SSGNRDZ_28]

If I ever get headers I'm going to explore Zirconia coating. I don't know what it costs (assume $$$) but it is the best possible thermal coating out there.

[Bill Pemberton]

You have a PM

[Steve-Indy]

Doug, suggest you read this old post...small sample, but food for thought:

http://forums.viperclub.org/threads/...Entire-Exhaust

[SSGNRDZ_28]

Thanks, Steve. I remember your story on the topic. I wonder how Zirconia coating just the headers or portions of the headers (where the shielding is most necessary) would help strike a balance of too much heat in the engine bay vs too much heat down stream.

[Steve-Indy]

Agree it's worth trying...but, I suspect more expensive now.

[Dan Cragin]

On a Gen 3 just install the factory exhaust manifold heat covers. You need to bend them a little but they fit just fine. We did this on all our Competition Coupes and it corrected all the heat issues. Cover that clutch line with DEA heat wrap and stainless zip ties, you will be golden.

Hope this helps.

[v10CodeMonkey]

I have ARH with Jet-Hot coating, seem to do fine heat-wise. Really like the sound as well.

[JonB ~ PartsRack]

I disagree on metallurgy and heat. And maybe on wrapping !

Stainless Headers operate approx 220f hotter than alumanized (Belanger, M&M) and that is BEFORE they are coated.
If you pop the hood in a pit lane or paddock, the SS performance headers are flame-thrower hot, compared to Belangers. FACT. You need heatproof gloves to get in there on an ACR-X, but NOT on a Comp Coupe. Why? Belangers on VCC! But SRT opted for their 2nd choice, due to cost and time constraints on the ACR-X program, and went stainless. Nothing on an ACR-X to melt anyway. FACT.

It does not matter so much on a RACE CAR, but it sure as hell matters on a Street car, with tons of components to degrade over the years. Race cars replace almost everything seasonally. Street cars dont. Be kinder and gentler and cooler on components you want to last 5-20 years.

Wrapping exhaust piping anywhere sifts fine dust and oil and mineral dust from concrete, asphalt, and fluids. It gets inside the wrapping iteself, and eventually begins to abrade and corrode things. When / if it gets wet it creates an acid bath. It can even damage stainless steel over years.

I remember a VOI-Tech session {Las-Vegas-One) with Team Viper engineers who strongly advised AGAINST wrapping any of their exhaust components for these very reasons. I took it to heart, and I dont use, sell, or recommend the stuff. Random Tech long advises against it too, because it traps heat and raises internal temps.

Hint: If you refresh your clutch reservoir regularly just using a turkey-baster (!) and Pwr Steer too, you will avoid a LOT of fluid-based heat issues and heat-soak issues. And as Dan says, on tracked cars consider some insulation of the clutch and brake lines.

NOTE: SRT RAM ARE THE ABSOLUTE WORST !!! You gotta refresh that clutch fluid regularly even on street trucks. Heat-Soak-City,

[FLATOUT]

Jon we do header install after header install, every brand aluminized coated or stainless all have the same problems with heat. They all have the potential to melt the same components. I know because we fix, repair, recondition improper installs all the time. If anyone says otherwise they are lying or simply don't see enough or different brands come through their shop. We sell all three header brands. We take all the same install precautions with each brand.

And you always state the ARH's are/were the second choice although Arrow continued to use them on the development for the current performance offerings and Ralph still runs them on his personal Viper.

Calling them "flame thrower" hot is ridiculous.

[JonB ~ PartsRack]

Watching them glow orangey-red on the dyno stand gives you a perspective.

Stainless runs HOTTER than Alumanized......... simple. I did not say they are heatLESS, just LESS heat.

[FLATOUT]

Watching them glow orangey-red on the dyno stand gives you a perspective.

Stainless runs HOTTER than Alumanized......... simple. I did not say they are heatLESS, just LESS heat.

We run into the exact same issues with all three brands when it comes to heat. You can and we do have plenty of customers that coat their stainless sets as well.

[ViperPete]

When we visited Arrow Racing Engines back in May, the stock Viper manifolds glowed red hot too. Don't know what they are made out of though.. just sayin.

I don't know if an exhaust that wont get red hot on WOT. Even my Titanium exhaust on my cbr1000rr got glowy on the dyno.

[mjorgensen]

When we visited Arrow Racing Engines back in May, the stock Viper manifolds glowed red hot too. Don't know what they are made out of though.. just sayin.

I don't know if an exhaust that wont get red hot on WOT. Even my Titanium exhaust on my cbr1000rr got glowy on the dyno.

Stock is stainless as are all manufacturers for lifelong use. The stocks exhaust is double wall though so if it glows through both shields you know it is crazy hot inside on the first layer!

[Angleiron]

So I found a web site that explained why you should never wrap a header...

In the past, almost all NASCAR and other racing engine builders and crew chiefs used header wraps for the added power gains and thermal control benefits offered by their use. Problems occurred when these same teams had to replace the headers after each race (NASCAR) due to the wrap being about the only thing holding each header together. Most engine builders, crew chiefs, and definitely the header manufacturers themselves do not promote the practice of installing these wraps directly on the headers! They now utilize the thermal coatings that are chemically and electrically applied to the headers. Popular header coating services include Airborn, Jet Hot, HPC, and some header manufacturers now applying the thermal coatings in-house.

Imagine having to replace a $1500.00+ set of headers after each race weekend! Few but the most financially well-off race teams can afford to do this. Also, consider the downtime in remaking a custom set of headers. Most custom header makers do not have copies readily available.

I believe that the wraps are good to protect various underhood 'items' from heat, but not for the use of holding the heat in the header. For example: you can use the wrapping for the protection of fuel and oil lines, wiring, covering a starter motor, etc.

Cool air needs to be around the header, and insulating it with a wrap to hold exhaust heat in makes the header material surface temperatures reach near molten levels. When you wrap the header you trap the heat in the header, but also suffocate the material that needs to breathe to dissipate heat for it's own survival.

Engineers, Metallurgists, and other experts out there will state that there is no way that the material can fail because it was designed to withstand the internal temperatures of exhaust gases. This is very TRUE! But, when the header is not allowed to cool (or breathe) so as to dissipate those extreme temperatures that the wrap is controlling, you have now developed a heat absorption that compares to thermal friction. This causes temperatures to continue to rise beyond the normal exhaust gas temperatures (EGT's) the header material was designed to withstand. This holds true as with most any type insulation.

Try this experiment the next time you launder a load of bath towels and then dry them. Immediately pull them out of the dryer and just toss them in a snug pile on your bed. Now leave them there for a many hours, even a day, and then open them. You will find that there is still a considerable amount of heat left in the center towels. This heat, even though the outer towels and bed are normal room temperature have been able to contain their heat. This is a simple thermal insulation test, but compared to your headers you have an internal heat supply constantly coming from the engine when running. The heat on the outside portion of the header material is trapped between the wrap, and soon will begin to fatigue the header. This build-up of heat is amplified by the wrap. Your freshly dried bath towels do not need to breathe, your header material does.

The EGTs stay the same but the properties of the header material changes by amplifying the temperature due to the insulation. This action goes against normal laws of thermal dynamics, but this effect is fact, and you have to pull the ears off most engineers before they believe you. This is the trouble with plenty of education, but a lack of something that is often just as important, that of "common sense"! If you decide not to believe these statements that is your choice. Go ahead and install the header tape on your headers ... we'll be happy to sell you a new header set!

Under normal use, and even more with higher EGTs and header surface temperatures, your headers will oxidize and small amounts of material is actually removed from the headers. This means your uncoated headers will become lighter and weaker over time.

Examine these actual test numbers:

Mild Steel (1010) uncoated header exposed to continuous 1200º F. in normal air will have a weight loss percentage of roughly 25% with only 10 hours use at this temperature.
Stainless Steel (410) uncoated header will have roughly 8% weight loss in the same 10 hour period.
A coated mild steel header will have NO weight loss at temperatures up to 1200º F. In fact it will actually gain a bit of weight! Between 1300º F and 1600º F the coating will begin to show signs of mud cracking or like the look of lacquer checking. However, limited diffusion takes place between the coating and the substrate, producing a very thin film of iron aluminide, which continues to inhibit oxidation.


Now, think about the information provided above and consider the added thermal stress generated by the header wraps. What do you see? Remember that the wrapped metal cannot cool properly and the header wrap is causing the material to super-heat and pre-maturely fail!

Because of the expanding gases, if you have had the experience (as I have) to see first hand what header warp has done to a header, you would notice the locations on a header where the material failures occur. This is typically where a step would be, or where there is an expansion pulse of exhaust gases inside the header tube. I have had headers in my hand where literally the only thing keeping the header in one piece was the wrap. Whole chunks of the header material was gone, simply melted away. If you were to speak to most "engineers" (I use that title with caution) they will probably tell you that aliens stole the metal as the car was racing around the track! They say this because the conclusion that the wrap is causing problems is not part of normal metallurgy and thermal dynamics theory <key word>. The header wrap allows temperatures between the wrap and the header to turn the material molten.

We know that header manufacturers will NOT WARRANTY a header which has had a wrap installed on it. We know that I (and many others) have personally witnessed, tested and inspected headers that have been destroyed after running headers wraps, and these headers were on a perfectly tuned engines.

Just because an item or product is advertised for a specific use does not mean it does not do what the promotion or advertisement states. But, it also does not mean it is the best choice either, or that there are negative consequences. We have all seen TV commercials on all of these "medical miracles" and "overnight diets" that do such feats as fast weight loss and re-grow your hair. How often have we laughed at the side affects, like the most common being penile failure. Oh sure, I want to take some drug if my hair starts falling out that makes other body parts fail to function. NOT !!! Those pharmaceutical companies can pucker up and kiss my backside! I'd rather have function than hair!

The same can hold true with automotive and marine products. Heat wraps are great, just do not use them ON the header. Use them on a device or component on your vehicle that you are trying to protect from header heat.

If you want a true thermal barrier that will reduce thermal loss in the header, reduce under hood temperatures, and make a few horsepower in the process, have your headers thermal coated by one of the many companies available or the header manufacturer themselves. Most all of the coating companies offer inside and outside, multi-layer coating as standard. DO NOT allow your headers to only be coated on the outside, or just a single layer application! This is not a complete or quality process.

Some other considerations about the coatings. Once the header is coated, it is virtually permanent. That means that if you screw up your coated header, it is not an easy job to repair and most header companies do not want to even attempt a repair. The coating permeates slightly into the header material which makes welding processes on a coated material less than adequate. This is why you always coat the headers last, after all modifications to the header are made, and you are 100% sure the header will fit your vehicle.

Lastly, an out of tune or tired engine can damage your header coating. A fuel mixture that is too rich or too lean can create higher than normal EGT's that can and will damage the coating. Excess oil for a tired engine or assembly lube from a brand new engine will raise the EGT's as the combustion process tries to burn off these items. Most header manufacturers state that if you are installing coated headers on a newly built engine that you perform your initial break-in and tuning procedures with an old set of headers or exhaust manifolds before installing your coated headers.

[mjorgensen]

You are CRAZY!....

:-)

So I found a web site that explained why you should never wrap a header...

In the past, almost all NASCAR and other racing engine builders and crew chiefs used header wraps for the added power gains and thermal control benefits offered by their use. Problems occurred when these same teams had to replace the headers after each race (NASCAR) due to the wrap being about the only thing holding each header together. Most engine builders, crew chiefs, and definitely the header manufacturers themselves do not promote the practice of installing these wraps directly on the headers! They now utilize the thermal coatings that are chemically and electrically applied to the headers. Popular header coating services include Airborn, Jet Hot, HPC, and some header manufacturers now applying the thermal coatings in-house.

Imagine having to replace a $1500.00+ set of headers after each race weekend! Few but the most financially well-off race teams can afford to do this. Also, consider the downtime in remaking a custom set of headers. Most custom header makers do not have copies readily available.

I believe that the wraps are good to protect various underhood 'items' from heat, but not for the use of holding the heat in the header. For example: you can use the wrapping for the protection of fuel and oil lines, wiring, covering a starter motor, etc.

Cool air needs to be around the header, and insulating it with a wrap to hold exhaust heat in makes the header material surface temperatures reach near molten levels. When you wrap the header you trap the heat in the header, but also suffocate the material that needs to breathe to dissipate heat for it's own survival.

Engineers, Metallurgists, and other experts out there will state that there is no way that the material can fail because it was designed to withstand the internal temperatures of exhaust gases. This is very TRUE! But, when the header is not allowed to cool (or breathe) so as to dissipate those extreme temperatures that the wrap is controlling, you have now developed a heat absorption that compares to thermal friction. This causes temperatures to continue to rise beyond the normal exhaust gas temperatures (EGT's) the header material was designed to withstand. This holds true as with most any type insulation.

Try this experiment the next time you launder a load of bath towels and then dry them. Immediately pull them out of the dryer and just toss them in a snug pile on your bed. Now leave them there for a many hours, even a day, and then open them. You will find that there is still a considerable amount of heat left in the center towels. This heat, even though the outer towels and bed are normal room temperature have been able to contain their heat. This is a simple thermal insulation test, but compared to your headers you have an internal heat supply constantly coming from the engine when running. The heat on the outside portion of the header material is trapped between the wrap, and soon will begin to fatigue the header. This build-up of heat is amplified by the wrap. Your freshly dried bath towels do not need to breathe, your header material does.

The EGTs stay the same but the properties of the header material changes by amplifying the temperature due to the insulation. This action goes against normal laws of thermal dynamics, but this effect is fact, and you have to pull the ears off most engineers before they believe you. This is the trouble with plenty of education, but a lack of something that is often just as important, that of "common sense"! If you decide not to believe these statements that is your choice. Go ahead and install the header tape on your headers ... we'll be happy to sell you a new header set!

Under normal use, and even more with higher EGTs and header surface temperatures, your headers will oxidize and small amounts of material is actually removed from the headers. This means your uncoated headers will become lighter and weaker over time.

Examine these actual test numbers:

Mild Steel (1010) uncoated header exposed to continuous 1200º F. in normal air will have a weight loss percentage of roughly 25% with only 10 hours use at this temperature.
Stainless Steel (410) uncoated header will have roughly 8% weight loss in the same 10 hour period.
A coated mild steel header will have NO weight loss at temperatures up to 1200º F. In fact it will actually gain a bit of weight! Between 1300º F and 1600º F the coating will begin to show signs of mud cracking or like the look of lacquer checking. However, limited diffusion takes place between the coating and the substrate, producing a very thin film of iron aluminide, which continues to inhibit oxidation.


Now, think about the information provided above and consider the added thermal stress generated by the header wraps. What do you see? Remember that the wrapped metal cannot cool properly and the header wrap is causing the material to super-heat and pre-maturely fail!

Because of the expanding gases, if you have had the experience (as I have) to see first hand what header warp has done to a header, you would notice the locations on a header where the material failures occur. This is typically where a step would be, or where there is an expansion pulse of exhaust gases inside the header tube. I have had headers in my hand where literally the only thing keeping the header in one piece was the wrap. Whole chunks of the header material was gone, simply melted away. If you were to speak to most "engineers" (I use that title with caution) they will probably tell you that aliens stole the metal as the car was racing around the track! They say this because the conclusion that the wrap is causing problems is not part of normal metallurgy and thermal dynamics theory <key word>. The header wrap allows temperatures between the wrap and the header to turn the material molten.

We know that header manufacturers will NOT WARRANTY a header which has had a wrap installed on it. We know that I (and many others) have personally witnessed, tested and inspected headers that have been destroyed after running headers wraps, and these headers were on a perfectly tuned engines.

Just because an item or product is advertised for a specific use does not mean it does not do what the promotion or advertisement states. But, it also does not mean it is the best choice either, or that there are negative consequences. We have all seen TV commercials on all of these "medical miracles" and "overnight diets" that do such feats as fast weight loss and re-grow your hair. How often have we laughed at the side affects, like the most common being penile failure. Oh sure, I want to take some drug if my hair starts falling out that makes other body parts fail to function. NOT !!! Those pharmaceutical companies can pucker up and kiss my backside! I'd rather have function than hair!

The same can hold true with automotive and marine products. Heat wraps are great, just do not use them ON the header. Use them on a device or component on your vehicle that you are trying to protect from header heat.

If you want a true thermal barrier that will reduce thermal loss in the header, reduce under hood temperatures, and make a few horsepower in the process, have your headers thermal coated by one of the many companies available or the header manufacturer themselves. Most all of the coating companies offer inside and outside, multi-layer coating as standard. DO NOT allow your headers to only be coated on the outside, or just a single layer application! This is not a complete or quality process.

Some other considerations about the coatings. Once the header is coated, it is virtually permanent. That means that if you screw up your coated header, it is not an easy job to repair and most header companies do not want to even attempt a repair. The coating permeates slightly into the header material which makes welding processes on a coated material less than adequate. This is why you always coat the headers last, after all modifications to the header are made, and you are 100% sure the header will fit your vehicle.

Lastly, an out of tune or tired engine can damage your header coating. A fuel mixture that is too rich or too lean can create higher than normal EGT's that can and will damage the coating. Excess oil for a tired engine or assembly lube from a brand new engine will raise the EGT's as the combustion process tries to burn off these items. Most header manufacturers state that if you are installing coated headers on a newly built engine that you perform your initial break-in and tuning procedures with an old set of headers or exhaust manifolds before installing your coated headers.

[FrgMstr]

You are CRAZY!....

:-)

The word I used was "retard," but I know I am not supposed to say that now days.....but yeah, that guy is nuts. "Imagine having to replace a $1500.00+ set of headers after each race weekend!"

I look at it this way. If the headers are damaged in the next 5 or 10 years, I really do not give a damn. I will buy some more. I want the clutch to be bulletproof today while I am driving and racing the car. In the grand scheme of things, as a consumable, headers are not any more expensive than tires.