FINAL answer on Gen V Viper Differential lubricant...plus a Gen IV tip...

[Chorps]

Thanks. I appreciate your input. Excess heat and/or vibration doesn't sound good. I'll have it changed again.

Tell me how much they ding you for the change over. I've been trying to find Syntrax and the cheapest I can see is about $70CAD for 2L shipped (to Edmonton)...not that it's a lot of money but when you see other 75W140s selling for a lot less it seems like a slap on the arse.

[TA Two Oh]

Tell me how much they ding you for the change over. I've been trying to find Syntrax and the cheapest I can see is about $70CAD for 2L shipped (to Edmonton)...not that it's a lot of money but when you see other 75W140s selling for a lot less it seems like a slap on the arse.

2 bottles of fluid at $58.36 CAD each. BTW I called the dealer yesterday to ask why they added the friction modifier. They initially told me that it was necessary for that type of diff. So I asked the Service Writer to look up the instructions. He did so, and said that it didn't specifically mention adding it but that it was "a good idea to do anyway." I told him that my understanding was that if it was used, it could cause additional heat and vibration and possibly destroy the diff. Then he spoke to the Service Manager and after doing so he asked me to bring it back in immediately; they'll drain and refill it for me at no cost.

Overall, my dealer has been pretty good, but I have to keep on top of them. To my knowledge, they've sold exactly two Gen V's, so they just don't have any experience with them. Their Viper tech spends 99% of his time working on pickups.

Due to the info I garnered in this thread, I've prevented my diff from chewing itself up. Thanks, everyone!

[ACRucrazy]

OK Viper Owners, here is THE FINAL ANSWER concerning our LONG discussion of the "factory fill" and "service fluid" used in the Gen V Viper differentials. I cannot and will not post the sources of the info contained here...BUT, merely express my personal thanks and appreciation to the kind, interested, "high level professionals" who provided this communication. Thanks are also owed to "lochnessmonster" for calling our collective attention to this situation. You can see this initial discussion in this link: http://driveviper.com/forums/threads...ction-modifier

"The Viper rear axle lube used from 1992 – 2010 (with Dana Trac-Lok and Hydra-Lok differentials) was the corporate ‘standard’ MS-8985 synthetic 75W-140… this was the same generic 75W-140 used in many other Chrysler products. For the Viper, the MS-10111 limited slip additive was also required. Viper fill volume to the bottom of the fill plug is about 48 oz. The factory fill at Dana was pre-blended with friction modifier at 5% by volume. For Service, the 75W-140 and the friction modifier are sold separately and the dealer/customer need to do the mix. The correct friction modifier amount for the Viper axle fill based on the 5% blend is about 2.4 oz. Unfortunately the stuff comes in a 4 oz. bottle I believe, so somewhere along the line, it became popular to put in a full bottle. A little more or less does not cause problems, but the correct amount has always been 5% by volume. Because it was a generic synthetic 75W-140, the MS-8985 fluid came from a variety of fluid suppliers including Shell, Texaco, etc.


Over time and miles, the friction modifier tends to ‘burn off’ and become less effective, causing some chatter when turning or other NVH issues. Usually, a fresh fluid/friction modifier change is sufficient to get things back to normal. The NVH issue became more apparent with the introduction of the Viper GKN Visco Lok differential in 2008. For 2008 – 2010, we lived with the standard 75W-140 fluid because it met all of our durability requirements and was less expensive than other lube alternatives. But we did have more of a friction modifier ‘loss of effectiveness’ issue with the Visco Lok as we got more experience with the new differential. We learned that on some cars, the Visco Lok would tend to make a howl/growl/grind noise when turning at low speed if the friction modifier was used up. So for 2013, we went with the special Castrol SAF-XJ 75W-140 synthetic developed by Castrol and GKN for the Visco Lok. This fluid has a different friction modifier and blend % already mixed for factory fill and Service. No added friction modifier is necessary. It is also recommended that the Castrol SAF-XJ be used for Service of 2008 – 2010 Vipers with the Visco Lok. I do not know if Castrol sells this product under their brand name, but I do know that it is available in a special ‘SRT’ bottle from Mopar. "

NOTE #1: "NVH" as used above in the second paragraph stands for "Noise, Vibration, and Harshness"...standard driveline issues.

NOTE #2: "Castrol SAF-XJ/SAE 75W-140 Synthetic Gear and Axle Lubricant" as listed in the Gen V Owners Manual has been renamed "Castrol Syntrax Limited Slip 75W-140".

The MOPAR part number for this fluid is 68197927AA and, YOU can purchase this at your local Chrysler-Jeep-Dodge-Ram dealership, though they may not have it in stock.

Thanks, again, to All who helped with this issue,

Steve Fess, Membership Coordinator, VOA IN/KY Region, Inc. 317-402-9013

Thanks for the info! If I am understanding all this, TLDR

92-10 = 45.6 oz of "standard’ MS-8985 synthetic 75W-140 and 2.4 oz MS-10111 limited slip additive was also required. (This is factory fill for all Gen I-IV and service fill for Gen I-III)

08-17= 48 oz of Castrol Syntrax Limited Slip 75W-140 or MOPAR part number 68197927AA with no additive. (This was factory fill for Gen V and service fill for the Gen IV-V)

[Chorps]

Thanks TA Two Oh. :-)

[Steve-Indy]

ACRucrazy, I think that you will find that techs at dealerships are using the OEM fill for service on Gen IV Vipers. I believe this will continue into the future as most use the bulk 75-140 and throw in the additive.

Keep in mind that the comment regarding a possible benefit of Syntrax foe Gen IV's came in a "communication" and was not published as far as I know...at the time I posted "THE FINAL ANSWER".

Certainly individual owners are free to choose for their own Viper.

[TA Two Oh]

BTW I called the dealer yesterday to ask why they added the friction modifier. They initially told me that it was necessary for that type of diff. So I asked the Service Writer to look up the instructions. He did so, and said that it didn't specifically mention adding it but that it was "a good idea to do anyway." I told him that my understanding was that if it was used, it could cause additional heat and vibration and possibly destroy the diff. Then he spoke to the Service Manager and after doing so he asked me to bring it back in immediately; they'll drain and refill it for me at no cost.

I guess my story isn't over yet. The Service Writer called me this morning to "give me good news!" He said that when they ordered the fluid for my appointment today, they found out that that 4 oz of Limited Slip Additive is required after all. I asked him to email the source of that to me, since it conflicts with my information. They sent me a page from starparts.chrysler.com/Fluids
001.jpg
Under CHASSIS, the first diamond is Axle, noting that Castrol SAF-XJ SAE 75W-140 is to be used. Then below that, the first diamond says: "Limited Slip Rear Axles require the addition of 118 ml (4 oz) MOPAR Limited Slip Additive. He actually sent two pages, the first had all my car's info on it, including my VIN, so it's apparently for my car, not an older model or older fluid. i'm certain that the attached page is erroneous, but how do I tell them that? They have documentation, from Chrysler, for my car, that shows the Friction modifier additive requirement. (They also have the Service instructions that do not show adding the Modifier) Any suggestions?

[timberwolf]

I guess my story isn't over yet. The Service Writer called me this morning to "give me good news!" He said that when they ordered the fluid for my appointment today, they found out that that 4 oz of Limited Slip Additive is required after all. I asked him to email the source of that to me, since it conflicts with my information. They sent me a page from starparts.chrysler.com/Fluids
001.jpg
Under CHASSIS, the first diamond is Axle, noting that Castrol SAF-XJ SAE 75W-140 is to be used. Then below that, the first diamond says: "Limited Slip Rear Axles require the addition of 118 ml (4 oz) MOPAR Limited Slip Additive. He actually sent two pages, the first had all my car's info on it, including my VIN, so it's apparently for my car, not an older model or older fluid. i'm certain that the attached page is erroneous, but how do I tell them that? They have documentation, from Chrysler, for my car, that shows the Friction modifier additive requirement. (They also have the Service instructions that do not show adding the Modifier) Any suggestions?

I did this fluid the dealer recommended which worked at first, then after a few 100 miles, the noise started coming back. I'm going to call the dealer back this fall and have a new diff put in.
Could be different for your car but as I guessed it's bandaid fix.

[Steve-Indy]

I would suggest that you read the ORIGINAL DISCUSSION on this topic...which exposes conflicting info within Chrysler...hence all of the effort in exploring the CORRECT answer:

http://driveviper.com/forums/threads...ction-modifier

After that, do what you like.

[Exhlr8n]

Any issues with using Mobil One Synthetic 75W-140?

Meets the API Service GL-5 EP gear oil service classification
Performs over a wide range of temperatures
Reduced fluid friction
Reduces wear and spalling under the high-speed, high-torque and high-horsepower conditions in many sport utility vehicles, vans, light trucks, and cars

[Steve M]

Any issues with using Mobil One Synthetic 75W-140?

Meets the API Service GL-5 EP gear oil service classification
Performs over a wide range of temperatures
Reduced fluid friction
Reduces wear and spalling under the high-speed, high-torque and high-horsepower conditions in many sport utility vehicles, vans, light trucks, and cars

Personal preference IMO...when I bought my Gen 4, it had the original diff fluid still in it with about 10,000 miles on it. That thing groaned and gave me all sorts of cold start tight steering issues (front tires skittering across the ground while maneuvering in my driveway), so anything would have been an improvement. I changed it out to Torco 75w140 with 4 oz. of Mopar limited slip additive, and all of those problems went away. I have about 15,000 miles on my car now, and just swapped out for Amsoil Severe Gear 75w140 with 4 oz. of Mopar limited slip additive...no real difference in performance, but the diff fluid that was in there came out dirty. Keep in mind, my car is used on the street only...if you are a track regular, you'll need to change it out much more frequently. I only put about 1,000 miles on it a year, so changing it every 3-4 years seems to do the trick.

[quickster2]

Just for the record in a Gen IV you should only use 2.6 OZ of the friction modifier per the service manual. The Gen V current fill will help with NVH longer term issues per SRT Powertrain on a Gen IV. Too much friction modifier is as bad as too little and will damage your differential. 2.6 OZ is essentially equal to 5% by volume which is the target and mentioned in other Gen V threads.

I too would recommend staying with the "original discussion" as mentioned by Steve in post # 33. Referring to the original discussion I believe the manuals were not updated to reflect the changes in the diff fill recommendations.

[sadil]

What is the size of the 68197927AA MOPAR bottle? Do I need to order 2 bottles or 4 bottles to get 2L? I see that the Castrol Syntrax is 500 ml but they also sell 1L bottles. Cannot find size of MOPAR bottle.

Sarosh

[AZTVR]

What is the size of the 68197927AA MOPAR bottle?

http://driveviper.com/forums/threads...l=1#post228441

[sadil]

http://driveviper.com/forums/threads...l=1#post228441

Thank you sir and thank you op for clearing all this up.

[uberpube]

Is the Gen V still a dana 44 differential? I use to blow them up all the time in my 440 truck's front axle, seems light for the power the motor makes in the Viper.

[swexlin]

Is the Gen V still a dana 44 differential? I use to blow them up all the time in my 440 truck's front axle, seems light for the power the motor makes in the Viper.

Yes, it is a Dana, I believe a 44. Pretty sold diffs overall, but some of us have had them replaced.

[Garron]

Yes, it is a Dana, I believe a 44. Pretty sold diffs overall, but some of us have had them replaced.

The reason they are telling us they are being replaced is because the wrong ratio of additive to gear oil was mixed incorrectly in the bulk container from factory. That's why there is an axle recall.

[swexlin]

Mine (and many other pre-2016 Vipers) have had their diffs start whining and clunking. Has been an issue for a year Gen 5s, I guess they've finally admitted!

[AZTVR]

Mine (and many other pre-2016 Vipers) have had their diffs start whining and clunking. Has been an issue for a year Gen 5s, I guess they've finally admitted!

I didn't understand your use of words there in the last sentence; but who has admitted what, when? The only thing that I have read is that some were being replaced due to being filled with the wrong fluid mixture. What build range of cars were affected by this ?

[ViperGeorge]

What is the size of the 68197927AA MOPAR bottle? Do I need to order 2 bottles or 4 bottles to get 2L? I see that the Castrol Syntrax is 500 ml but they also sell 1L bottles. Cannot find size of MOPAR bottle.

Sarosh

My dealer used two bottles on my TA.

[swexlin]

I didn't understand your use of words there in the last sentence; but who has admitted what, when? The only thing that I have read is that some were being replaced due to being filled with the wrong fluid mixture. What build range of cars were affected by this ?

I was replying that they admitted the problem with the 16s under recall. However, I was trying to emphasize that this can't be the only issue, because Gen 5s of all years have had diff issues - gear whine mostly. Do a search on here under "diff whine" and you'll find several threads.

[VENOM V]

I guess my story isn't over yet. The Service Writer called me this morning to "give me good news!" He said that when they ordered the fluid for my appointment today, they found out that that 4 oz of Limited Slip Additive is required after all. I asked him to email the source of that to me, since it conflicts with my information. They sent me a page from starparts.chrysler.com/Fluids
001.jpg
Under CHASSIS, the first diamond is Axle, noting that Castrol SAF-XJ SAE 75W-140 is to be used. Then below that, the first diamond says: "Limited Slip Rear Axles require the addition of 118 ml (4 oz) MOPAR Limited Slip Additive. He actually sent two pages, the first had all my car's info on it, including my VIN, so it's apparently for my car, not an older model or older fluid. i'm certain that the attached page is erroneous, but how do I tell them that? They have documentation, from Chrysler, for my car, that shows the Friction modifier additive requirement. (They also have the Service instructions that do not show adding the Modifier) Any suggestions?

Maybe this was already answered (long thread!), but the correct answer is DON'T add additional limited slip additive.

The MOPAR part number for this fluid is 68197927AA as explained in post #1, and you need two bottles.

I'm changing mine this weekend

Just confirmed this with Mark Jorgensen, he is certain.

[TA Two Oh]

Thanks Todd. I am certain that they were not supposed to add the additive. The only issue now is trying to convince them of that. I went to the Parts Dept hoping to look at a bottle. I thought it might say "Contains LSD Additive -DO NOT ADD ADDITIVE" but they didn't have any in stock. My store has sold a grand total of 2 Gen V's, one 2014 and my 2015. With the Viper, I literally have to lead them to the water if they're thirsty or they'll die of dehydration.

Just one small example: their Viper tech damaged the underwood insulation on my car during PDI by bending it back to put a stupid Antitheft sticker on the underside of the hood. I pointed it out upon delivery so they ordered me a new one and put it on but a wheel had been placed on it during shipping so it was worse than the original, damaged one. I complained and they ordered me another one, installed it and the entire top edge is crushed... like, 4 feet of damage. I have a dash cam that actually recorded the tech saying: " this is bad...he's definitely not going to be happy with this" as he finished up the installation. Each new piece was worse than the last so I just dropped the issue and I try not to look at it when I open my hood.

If you see something to the effect that the additive is already in the fluid, on the bottle, please let me know and I'll order some just so that I can show it to them. Otherwise I'm pretty sure I'll have to do it myself. I showed them everything in this thread and the other diff fluid thread but they blew me off cause they had one thing that said otherwise.


I have plenty of time now as it's below freezing, there's a pickled mixture of brine and very sharp rocks on the roads and things will stay that way until about May. (You guys down south are soooooo lucky!) Thanks again to you (and Steve a while back) for your assistance. My path of least resistance may end up being to eat the $250 I paid them to change it, buy the fluid, and learn how to change it myself.

Doug

[LmeaViper]

Thanks Todd. I am certain that they were not supposed to add the additive. The only issue now is trying to convince them of that. I went to the Parts Dept hoping to look at a bottle. I thought it might say "Contains LSD Additive -DO NOT ADD ADDITIVE" but they didn't have any in stock. My store has sold a grand total of 2 Gen V's, one 2014 and my 2015. With the Viper, I literally have to lead them to the water if they're thirsty or they'll die of dehydration.

Just one small example: their Viper tech damaged the underwood insulation on my car during PDI by bending it back to put a stupid Antitheft sticker on the underside of the hood. I pointed it out upon delivery so they ordered me a new one and put it on but a wheel had been placed on it during shipping so it was worse than the original, damaged one. I complained and they ordered me another one, installed it and the entire top edge is crushed... like, 4 feet of damage. I have a dash cam that actually recorded the tech saying: " this is bad...he's definitely not going to be happy with this" as he finished up the installation. Each new piece was worse than the last so I just dropped the issue and I try not to look at it when I open my hood.

If you see something to the effect that the additive is already in the fluid, on the bottle, please let me know and I'll order some just so that I can show it to them. Otherwise I'm pretty sure I'll have to do it myself. I showed them everything in this thread and the other diff fluid thread but they blew me off cause they had one thing that said otherwise.


I have plenty of time now as it's below freezing, there's a pickled mixture of brine and very sharp rocks on the roads and things will stay that way until about May. (You guys down south are soooooo lucky!) Thanks again to you (and Steve a while back) for your assistance. My path of least resistance may end up being to eat the $250 I paid them to change it, buy the fluid, and learn how to change it myself.

Doug

I took mine into CF in October before I put the car away. I should have asked the tech what he did with the additive in my car. I wonder if it is on the invoice?

[LmeaViper]

Makes a guy wonder if you do the change yourself and have an issue, will you get stung by the dealer for using the wrong fluid.