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You say this, but where has the car been? What events has it been to? I'm in no way discrediting the car but everyone wants to see results. We have given them time after time and have 6 twin turbo cars well 5 now running around without issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by v10tt
Just posting the info he sent me when I talked to him a couple of weeks agao when he tuned my car.
I remember the dyno video, but again, never saw anything after that. Last time I heard, it was going into limp mode with any considerable amount of boost. D3 ran a fair bit of boost on Evan's car, but since it's an auto, nobody knows how it would behave at that boost level with the stock transmission. Supposedly they worked all of the bugs out and got it to stop going into limp mode, but I know it went into limp mode plenty of times in the process. HPT just isn't ready for prime time turbo applications, even if James had countless hours to spend messing with it. Dodge seems to have really locked down the Gen V PCM with the torque management stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by v10tt
I'd pay money to see that 1002 whp graph! Sick!Quote:
Originally Posted by v10tt
You're such a debbie downer. Limp mode you say? Didn't go to big name events you say? Oh no, that means it can never get sorted on HP Tuners or run at events. You're starting to sound like that guy who made it seem that the only cam solution was Arrow and their ECU module. The limp mode issues with that cam were fixed and were resolved through HP Tuners. Must have been magic?Quote:
Originally Posted by aNinjaneer
How is your attitude helping? Honestly, I'd put in whatever effort I could to get a turbo setup running on HP Tuners and the stock ECU just to quote you.
Your posts make me go limp. Stock ECU tuned turbo Gen V Vipers making quadruple digits to the wheels do the opposite though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sticky
So who do you tune for? When is your turbo kit with HP Tuners going to hit the market?
I can't wait to see your results that you have with HPT and your turbo kit, and all of the headaches along the way. But you're totally right. I was able to write an ECU firmware on my own to control the car and all its OEM functionality, but am somehow unable to get HPT to work, and it's an issue with my abilities, not the tuning software... I don't know ANYTHING in this case. I definitely don't know anything about tuning Vipers, or how any of the systems work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sticky
Of course you'll be able to sense the sarcasm by now. It's really frustrating to hear people like you regurgitate time after time the insinuations that there are no/few TR Gen Vs because of lack of effort. Trust me, we tried it. Multiple times. As have others. I don't know a single shop making considerable power on a Gen V with HPT that hasn't encountered limp mode at some point.
You've made it very clear that you've never used the software, and probably know little to nothing about the Gen V platform. I suggest you purchase the dongle and $1000 in credits and give it a go yourself, so you can show us all how it's done.
Torrie's Car runs on 9 psi according to him. Probably the max. on the OEM ECU and HP tuners.
PM me so I can tell you where to send $$.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sticky
So let me get this right....there is a twin turbo Gen 5 system that runs on HP Tuners and puts out some nice numbers. It has a dyno graph showing the power output.Quote:
Originally Posted by v10tt
But, there are no videos of the unit driving around in traffic, roll racing, drag racing, etc. I don't understand if the car can run "perfect" on HPT, why wouldn't you want the world to know about it so you can sell more systems and totally undercut the guys pimping the $20k plus stand alone systems.
I've heard of some other attempts at twin turbo Gen 5's on HPT.....can they run?,...yup. Due they have issues such as surging, going into limp mode every 5th start, etc?.......yup.
"Running" and "drive-ability" are not the same thing.
I truly hope you can prove me wrong as this would be a big boost (no pun intended) to the FI Viper aftermarket and help make the Viper cars even more desirable.
I honestly do not think its possible to make 1000+hp all boost (and work properly) on the stock ecu on HP tuner currently. If you do all knock control strategies will have to be turned off. 25k engine or 15k motec system which gives you a bunch of other cool options....These aren't cheap toys!Quote:
Originally Posted by TrackAire
I didn't realize I had to build a turbo kit to learn about turbo kits.Quote:
Originally Posted by Junkie
This is crazy but every forced induction setup I've bought has not resulted in me coming to market and competing with my own offering.
I didn't say anything about lack of effort I said discounting the stock ECU as a whole doesn't help. HP Tuners is obviously not a Motec and I fully agree a standalone is more capable. I think HP Tuners is doing some awesome stuff and would like to see it continue with support from the community. It's not like there are a ton of tuned Gen V Vipers out there anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by aNinjaneer
I know little to nothing about the platform because I like seeing tuning evolve? I know enough to realize there are successful HP Tuners tuned Gen V's it seems. I kind of think your tuning ability is overstated when you claimed a motec was necessary for a centrifugal supercharger setup.
I'm not claiming to be a tuner by any means so I'm not sure why you are putting words in my mouth. I just think people don't have to follow your advice or spend money on what you advocate to get good results which has already been proven by D3PE and A&C Performance.
Maybe it's you that should spend more time with the software?
You're putting words in my mouth again. I never said a MoTeC was necessary to get a Gen V running with a blower... I said you can't properly optimize it with HPT's current iteration of software... Even D3 took months to figure everything out wit HPT, and the car still went into limp mode numerous times at Viper Nationals when they upped the boost. Not to discredit their ability, but rather to point out the extreme hurdles you have to overcome to get a Gen V boosted without hitting limp mode every time you change conditions. Again, you're welcome to give it a shot if you think it's really that simple. Even some of the bolt-on cars running HPT have been going into limp mode left and right. I know of another big-name HPT tuner that did 5-10 in a group before a track event, and every single one of the group except for one went into limp mode at the track. It's simply an unrefined product, and we don't have the time or patience to be the ones to spend countless hours figuring out what works and what doesn't to make a meager profit, if any at all. It just doesn't make sense from a business perspective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sticky
Don't you find it a bit hypocritical to expressly admit that you aren't a tuner, but yet claim that we don't know what we're doing and haven't put in reasonable effort? We tried to work WITH HPT on further developing the product, and at the time, they told us they had no interest. They have made minor improvements here and there, but it's not the path we chose to follow. Todd at A&C has decided to pursue that avenue with James, and they are making lots of progress with it, but I know for a fact that neither of them would tell you it's been without issues.
You can choose to believe what we/I say or not. I'm not here to convince you of anything. I'm here to share my experiences, state my opinions, and divulge what information I can to the community. What you choose to do wth that information is up to you. Antonio has plenty of customers lined up for turbo kits, so there's no reason for us at this moment to consider a budget kit. D3 seems to have good success with their blower package, and I'd recommend you speak to them if you're interested in that. Antonio started working on the blower package, and he can answer more questions about the status of whether or not the development of that will continue.
I'm not claiming anything about your effort. I think the Calvo turbo package is awesome. Your own post highlights my point. D3PE put in time with HP Tuners and got their supercharger running well on the stock ECU. Now even Hennessey is selling this setup although he calls it his own as he's a douchenozzle.Quote:
Originally Posted by aNinjaneer
My entire point is HP Tuners and stock ECU tuning can and will evolve. Discounting it as a whole is wrong to do. Nobody has to go the Motec route although obviously it is preferred. The thing is, you can buy a turbo kit for $20k from Stage 6 on the stock ecu. Will it be as comprehensive as your Motec $55k installed setup? No, but I think it's well worth exploring unless $35k cash is chump change to you.
I don't see any hypocrisy from me but I get a hint from you as you stated a Motec will make more power than D3PE's approach and it is the only way to do it properly. Well, I think D3PE did it properly and made plenty of power. Not to mention a centrifugal is easier to tune than a turbo setup.
There is nothing I need to believe from you. If your point is the Motec is more capable, well, duh. Thanks for that stunning revelation. Saying that HP Tuners can't properly tune a forced induction setup is a pile of BS though.
Sticky I think the issue is that you're not trying to see both sides here. Calvo and Collin are trying to deliver a quality product for their customers. The better the product is the happier the customers are. The less issues these customers have the happier they are, the more people they tell and the more repeat business Antonio and Collin can get.
When you have a solid option that you can deliver repeatable results with that is the option you choose. They attempted to make a lower rung package to save customers money in an effort to reach a second group of buyers, but were up front that they were unhappy with the mid-term quality of the end product. So they wanted some more time to see if they could get it to where they were satisfied (AKA - stating that more HP Tuners development was needed and saying they were going to try and take that on before making a final decision that the customer needed to move to something they could be satisfied with the end result of - Motec).
When that option was no longer there after the car was crashed, they moved to the stance that with so many hours already invested into that car and the shortcomings it had and how much more work it looked like it would need - and probably a pretty good educated guess about if it was going to ever act the way they wanted (sans more development from HP Tuners internally) - they said that they are not interested in trying to develop that lower rung package any longer.
To be upset at them for saying that in their experience after a legitimate attempt, they do not feel that HP Tuners currently will allow them to deliver a finished product up to their standards is you being very unreasonable.
They have standards, found a solution. The solution that Collin and Antonio developed took TONS of hours, the M1 software is different than a normal ECU where everything is done, you configure the sensors and go about your day. They had to write firmware, they had to figure out all the CAN language for the dash. It is an extremely involved operation. In essence they had to write all the things that HP Tuners needs to figure out how to unlock, and additionally write in all the things that the stock ECU doesn't have parameters for. It was an extremely in depth undertaking which is why you can't just go buy a M1 and put it on your Viper, it must be purchased through Calvo Motorsports because they own the software package for the car.
So beyond the fact that they even gave the HP Tuners a real shot, there is absolutely nothing wrong with them championing a better system, and even moreso, a system they had to spend thousands of dollars developing so that they could even use it.
Reading your responses I'm having a difficult time figuring out what you actually want out of the conversation. I can't tell if you're just feeling like them not continuing to work on HP Tuners is them in some way calling your baby ugly - which only makes sense to me if you are a Chrysler OEM ECU Engineer.
But either way you're definitely being unreasonable in terms of how much you're running these guys through the ringer for promoting a far and away better performing option. Even if HP Tuners figures out the cheat code that completely unlocks every aspect of the ECU, the Motec is still going to be better. You do understand that right? And even if it was entirely unlocked, it would still be OK for them to recommend the Motec.
You aren't appreciating the amount of time it takes to get an unstable platform, or an undeveloped platform to work correctly. Looking to save $15,000 of ECU is all well and good until the calibrator needs 100 hours of dynoing your car over and over to try and make it have the same 3000rpm 43% throttle 1lb of boost hiccup go away that only occurs at 62 degrees ambient.
Well if he bills you for that time you just spent the $15k again and have an inferior product. And who knows if he can even make it go away. And that doesn't count the eighty loaded hits on the dyno they may need to do on your engine which might be an entire season of driving for the owners buying this package.
These are the things that you eliminate when going with a solid system where you aren't hamstrung by "what is locked" or trying to make something that doesn't want to see boost operate a turbo engine at over two atmospheres.
http://i.imgur.com/0mKXcg1.gif?noredirectQuote:
Originally Posted by Mark Conte
D3 has not been without their share of issues, either. Also, the only car they currently have that has shown up to any events or done any videos has an auto in it. That's in no way at all an apples to apples comparison.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Conte
Not to mention you need to turn knock control off on a hp tuners to get anywhere with boost. What is your motor worth to you?
Sounds great! Now please share the link to the vid of a D3PE Viper with the manual transmission making a 1/4 mile run please. ETs is not that important, trap speed will be the most informative.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sticky
As has been stated, HPTuners is a beta product. It may evolve to a damn good solution for boosted applications. It does not appear to be there yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Conte
Yes, D3 has made some progress with HPT, but to say they haven't had issues is simply incorrect. The last event I saw the car at was Viper Nationals, with an auto in the car, and it went into limp mode after every burnout. They say they've fixed it since, but I haven't seen the car at any other events, so can't confirm. Not at all to discredit D3, but rather, again, point out that HPT is not a refined product at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sticky
I just spoke to Dwight (Stage 6) the other day asking about Torrie's car. His car has never ran at any event, so who knows how well it actually runs on the street. He also said that they, too, are running into limp mode at elevated boost levels. How many shops running boosted cars on HPT need to experience limp mode for you to consider for a second that the product is simply not mature enough to offer a turbo package with any sort of warranty?
D3 went 9.46 @ 143 with the auto at Viper Nationals, which is still the Gen V 1/4 mile record. But yes, HPT for the Gen V is nowhere near a finished product, and as you said, I believe it is still in Beta.Quote:
Originally Posted by rlhay2
Hey Mark! Welcome to post #1. Looking forward to seeing a Viper in your future :)
Thanks Ryan.
Viper > SupraQuote:
Originally Posted by Mark Conte
Your Viper is your slowest sports car. ;)
lol by far! Lydias truck and my 37 are faster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Conte