Coming Soon: Gen V Non-Invasive Catch Can Bracket DSE-VP-CC-002

[SSGNRDZ_28]

Coming Soon: Gen V Non-Invasive Catch Can Bracket DSE-VP-CC-002

I will have the prototype in a few weeks. Will be just like the Gen IV version:

- Compatible with the Radium Engineering Competition Catch Can https://www.radiumauto.com/Universal-Competition-Catch-Can-P289.aspx
- Clamps around the frame, padding reduces marking or damage to the frame. NO DRILLING!!
- Easy and quick installation, three screws install the bracket.
- Lightweight, pocketed design machined from billet aluminum with a durable anodized finish.
- Stainless steel hardware

Expected cost ~$175 (possibly less if there is enough interest with a group buy)

(Special thanks to a local celebrity for letting me use his car for measurement.)
11496

Gen IV Version Shown Here:
11497114981149911500

[rlhay2]

Ironically, I was just wondering if the Gen IV unit would fit.

[ViperGeorge]

Doug, where will it mount? Will it mount on the passenger side bar that runs kind of from the firewall to the tire? There is nothing there and there is plenty of room for it. It is also close to the hose outlet from the valve cover. Those of us with MCS shocks have the remote cylinders mounted on the front cross bar.

[KB Viper]

this is awesome Doug. i just got my Viper back yesterday and was going to buy a micrometer this weekend to get measurements for you. needless to say i definitely want to be added to your list for the set up.
thanks again for taking this on.

[XSnake]

looks great!

[SSGNRDZ_28]

Doug, where will it mount? Will it mount on the passenger side bar that runs kind of from the firewall to the tire? There is nothing there and there is plenty of room for it. It is also close to the hose outlet from the valve cover. Those of us with MCS shocks have the remote cylinders mounted on the front cross bar.

That was not the current plan (as drawn same location as Gen IV). Are you thinking behind the passenger tire on the outside of the bar? It would be convienent if both of the bars were the same diameter but I'm not holding my breath on that one.

- - - Updated - - -


this is awesome Doug. i just got my Viper back yesterday and was going to by a micrometer this weekend to get measusements for you. needless to say i definitely want to be added to your list for the set up.
thanks for taking this on.

I'm glad I got to it before you did! Thanks!

[Voice of Reason]

I'm in. When I took my intake box off a couple months ago to put my smooth tubes in so much oil had come out that the filter is stained from where it ran down and oil specks were all over. First car I've ever noticed this much.

[FLATOUT]

I want a catch can on my Gen V BADDDDDDDDDDDD.

[SSGNRDZ_28]

I'm in. When I took my intake box off a couple months ago to put my smooth tubes in so much oil had come out that the filter is stained from where it ran down and oil specks were all over. First car I've ever noticed this much.

Yep. Lots of oil I'd rather not see in the manifold. Once I saw it I knew I needed one. ACRUCRAZY had a good pic of how much oil had collected after some miles.

[FLATOUT]

Yep. Lots of oil I'd rather not see in the manifold. Once I saw it I knew I needed one. ACRUCRAZY had a good pic of how much oil had collected after some miles.

When I pulled the heads off my Motor for the Heads and Cam build with only 100 miles on it there was already a pretty heavy buildup of sludge on the piston tops. I was really surprise after such little use to see that.

[ViperGeorge]

That was not the current plan (as drawn same location as Gen IV). Are you thinking behind the passenger tire on the outside of the bar? It would be convienent if both of the bars were the same diameter but I'm not holding my breath on that one.

- - - Updated - - -



I'm glad I got to it before you did! Thanks!

I am thinking the bar behind the front right tire. Facing toward the engine. There is plenty of room there and it would seem to be an easy plumb job. I'll try to measure the bar diameter tonight if my electronic caliper is working. I'll also send you a picture or two (although I had thought I already did that).

[Simms]

Perfect. Mark me down for one.

[The_Cave_Man]

Im in for one

[Stealth]

I am also interested in the bracket and can. Will installation be reversible for smog testing?

[99RT10]

Coming Soon:

I will have the prototype in a few weeks. Will be just like the Gen IV version:




Link to the Gen 4 version? I probably should get one.

[SSGNRDZ_28]

I am also interested in the bracket and can. Will installation be reversible for smog testing?

I don't have plans to provide any plumbing since everyone will probably want something slightly different but if you had the proper fittings in theory everything could be put back to stock in about 5 minutes.

[SSGNRDZ_28]

Link to the Gen 4 version? I probably should get one.

Third item down.

http://dougshelbyengineering.com/Viper.html

Thank you.

[TrackratViper]

I'll take one too. My car is used mostly for track days and I am sick of the oil on the air filter!

[ACRucrazy]

I have Dougs on my IV. Very nice piece.

https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/11227923_10153004394562643_5805941335550013442_n.j pg?oh=9ee8f3478506b51757092a09db4379b8&oe=55F2A735

https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/11036492_10153004397092643_6132910671030689002_n.j pg?oh=227bc414b82845c5233347ccb3e04dd6&oe=562438B2

[BeBeep]

Interested

[LmeaViper]

Interested in a group buy....had one on my Cobra and it amazingly kept oil outta my supercharger and intercooler. A good investment.

Sidebar...just got my intake last night. Gonna check that out this weekend.

[FSTENUF]

Yes please add me to the order list.

[donk_316]

You guys, look into the RX catch cans with their clean side separator. Its much more than a simple catch can

[ViperPete]

My 05 SRT10 intake manifold is always full of oil.

I need to get a catch can for that engine too.

[Jack B]

Air-oil separator



You guys, look into the RX catch cans with their clean side separator. Its much more than a simple catch can

[Simms]

What's the recommended plumbing route for G5?

[timberwolf]

Ordered one! Hope there's one left :)

[Zybane]

Definitely interested in this. Oil in the intake tract really sucks.

[TexasTonka]

Put me down for one.

[TexasTonka]

Coming Soon: Gen V Non-Invasive Catch Can Bracket DSE-VP-CC-002

I will have the prototype in a few weeks. Will be just like the Gen IV version:

- Compatible with the Radium Engineering Competition Catch Can https://www.radiumauto.com/Universal-Competition-Catch-Can-P289.aspx
- Clamps around the frame, padding reduces marking or damage to the frame. NO DRILLING!!
- Easy and quick installation, three screws install the bracket.
- Lightweight, pocketed design machined from billet aluminum with a durable anodized finish.
- Stainless steel hardware



Very interested in this but unsure on how the single Radium set up works. I use the ACRX can on my GenIV ACR, two inlets and a filtered vent, easy to follow. I looked on the Radium website and it looks like you would need to run two Radium cans for the same effect? I'm no engineer which is why I am asking the question, how does a single Radium set up work?
I'd be most interested in an open system.

[Jack B]

The G5:

Drivers Side: There is supply air from the filtered side of the air box. In theory the air flow is from the air box to the valve cover. However, during race conditions, blow-by in the engine can reverse that process, my car had oil in the airbox. This typically is a filtered catch-can.


Passenger side: there is a vacuum line from the front of the engine that connects to the valve cover through the pcv. This can be handled in multiple ways, a simplke filtered catch-can or an air-oil separator.



Very interested in this but unsure on how the single Radium set up works. I use the ACRX can on my GenIV ACR, two inlets and a filtered vent, easy to follow. I looked on the Radium website and it looks like you would need to run two Radium cans for the same effect? I'm no engineer which is why I am asking the question, how does a single Radium set up work?
I'd be most interested in an open system.

[donk_316]

Air-oil separator

... Yeah? Exactly what a RX can is...

http://www.rxspeedworks.com/product/catch-can-kits/ Patented technology

That radium can is no better than the Ebay Greddy specials.

[TexasTonka]

Agree 100%, but this takes me back to my question, how can a single inlet/outlet Radium unit work on our cars? Would you not need two?
The ACRX unit has two inlets/one outlet so it follows your logic and plumbing description but is vented to atmosphere.




The G5:

Drivers Side: There is supply air from the filtered side of the air box. In theory the air flow is from the air box to the valve cover. However, during race conditions, blow-by in the engine can reverse that process, my car had oil in the airbox. This typically is a filtered catch-can.


Passenger side: there is a vacuum line from the front of the engine that connects to the valve cover through the pcv. This can be handled in multiple ways, a simplke filtered catch-can or an air-oil separator.

[SSGNRDZ_28]

I think a passenger side can would collect the majority of the oil for most owners. If you wanted to add a drivers side can to cover your bases during the scenarios Jack is describing you could.

If you want a vented system radium offers optional filters you could add instead of plumbing the lines back into the manifold or airbox. So vented or closed systems are both an option.

The brackets should work on the crossmember and side brace bars so in theory the flexibility is there for each owner to create a system that suits them best. Hence why I have no plans to sell plumbing kits or cans. The idea is just to allow people to clamp these on easily and create their own solution.


https://www.radiumauto.com/Blog/Post/Catch-Cans-101-102

[SSGNRDZ_28]

Agree 100%, but this takes me back to my question, how can a single inlet/outlet Radium unit work on our cars? Would you not need two?
The ACRX unit has two inlets/one outlet so it follows your logic and plumbing description but is vented to atmosphere.

The ACR-X can required modified valve cover pickup points correct? Did these translate to the Gen V?

To use one can would it not just be a matter of adding the vent filter on the output of the can and "Y-ing" the lines on the input or were the internals of that can more complex?

[Steve M]

The ACR-X can required modified valve cover pickup points correct? Did these translate to the Gen V?

Yes they did...Arrow modified the Gen 4 valve covers to pick up the fumes from the sides of the covers rather than the front as it came from the factory. The Gen 5 valve covers incorporated this change, but you can only tell if you can find a pic of the engine with the engine covers removed.

[Steve M]

Found a decent shot showing the passenger side valve cover:

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/Viper/Gen%205%20Viper%20Engine%201_zpslx9sofni.jpg

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/Viper/Gen%205%20Viper%20Engine%202_zpsst3wvlhr.jpg

[Steve M]

Agree 100%, but this takes me back to my question, how can a single inlet/outlet Radium unit work on our cars? Would you not need two?
The ACRX unit has two inlets/one outlet so it follows your logic and plumbing description but is vented to atmosphere.

For a closed system, you really only need one - you just hook up the passenger side valve cover vent to the can, and then run a line from the can back to the intake manifold. The driver's side is the make up air side of things, and pulls air from the non-vacuum side of the inlet (at the air box)...in my experience, the driver's side line collects little to no oil, at least not on my particular car. If you wanted to be safe, you'd need a second can if you wanted to maintain a closed loop system.

If you want to run a breather type can, you'd run both lines to the catch can (requires two inlets) - one from the passenger side, one from the driver's side. The breather in this case acts as the vent as well as the source of make up air for the system.

Under no circumstances would you bring in the lines from the passenger and driver's side valve covers to the same can in a closed loop system - you'll end up with all sorts of weird stuff because the make up air portion of the system (driver's side line) would now be under vacuum. In order for a PCV to properly work, you need to pull the air out of the crank case - in the case of the Viper, this is done on the passenger side valve cover. The line runs from there straight to the intake manifold, putting that line under vacuum...this vacuum is restricted, however, by the PCV valve (that's the silver thing in the pic above). The other thing you need is a source of air to replace what is pulled out under vacuum - this is done on the driver's side valve cover. That line connects to a non-vacuum air source (the air box).

Hopefully that makes some sense. I've been running my closed loop can on my Gen 4 for quite some time, and it seems to have effectively stopped oil ingestion on my mainly street driven car. If you were going to track it, I'd likely run an open breather type of setup (like the ACR-X catch can system) so you could 100% eliminate the possibility of oil ingestion. The only byproduct of a system like that is the potential for fumes...some are more sensitive to it than others.

[Jack B]

I was surprised at the raw oil inside the air box from the drivers side connection. Although not a huge volume, it was not an oily film, however, it was droplets of engine oil. i just wonder, if the baffling in the valve cover could be improved.



I think a passenger side can would collect the majority of the oil for most owners. If you wanted to add a drivers side can to cover your bases during the scenarios Jack is describing you could.

If you want a vented system radium offers optional filters you could add instead of plumbing the lines back into the manifold or airbox. So vented or closed systems are both an option.

The brackets should work on the crossmember and side brace bars so in theory the flexibility is there for each owner to create a system that suits them best. Hence why I have no plans to sell plumbing kits or cans. The idea is just to allow people to clamp these on easily and create their own solution.


https://www.radiumauto.com/Blog/Post/Catch-Cans-101-102

[ACRucrazy]

Radium catch can, DSE bracket & 2000 miles on my Gen IV

https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtf1/t31.0-8/11424754_10153003946612643_3233243983194750890_o.j pg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9

[SSGNRDZ_28]

Just a quick update update. Here are the prototypes, hope to arrange a test fit soon.

12048

[timberwolf]

Nice parts!!

[ViperPete]

Is it possible for the container to be blue?

Id like a catch can system.

[1.8t]

I will be buying one as well when these are released.

[ViperGeorge]

Is it possible for the container to be blue?

Id like a catch can system.

Sure, paint it.

[SSGNRDZ_28]

You'd have to contact Radium, maybe they would anodize it blue or send an unfinished can? I'd be willing to send an unfinished bracket.


Is it possible for the container to be blue?

Id like a catch can system.

[ViperPete]

You'd have to contact Radium, maybe they would anodize it blue or send an unfinished can? I'd be willing to send an unfinished bracket.

Yeah anodized blue would be the ticket :)

[Unorthodox]

I'll take one.

Should be enough interest to justify a group buy.

Michael

[ddominator1]

Ok guys. Can someone explain to me in simple terms how this works and why needed ? Sorry I'm sort orlf a newbie to this stuff. Are u saying that oil backs up and splashes onto manifold or something? Where exactly is this conneced to? Sorry if seems like dumb questions.
Thanks !

[Steve M]

I'll take a stab at it:

Piston rings make a seal with the cylinder walls - the rings don't seal 100% (they have gaps to allow for expansion/contraction), so inevitably combustion by-products (known as blow-by) make it past the rings into the crankcase/engine block. Those gases inevitably make contact with your engine oil, and those two things don't belong together (you want to keep your engine oil as clean as possible); it also increases the pressure in the crankcase, and that's not good for making sure the rings seal properly. In order to mitigate this problem, engine designers use something known as positive crankcase ventilation (PCV) systems to evacuate these gases. In the most basic sense, the intake manifold vacuum is used to pull the gases out. This vacuum is very restricted...otherwise, you'd end up pulling oil along with it. On a Gen 5 Viper, that's the line that runs from the passenger side valve cover to the intake manifold...the valve that's there is the PCV valve. In addition to restricting the flow, you also need a source of make-up air to be drawn in to the crankcase...essentially, this replaces what the PCV system draws out. On a Viper, that is the line that runs from the airbox to the driver's side valve cover. This line is not under vacuum. These two components (vacuum side with a restrictor valve and a make-up side with the fresh air) make up the PCV system.

Even with baffling in the valve covers, there's still enough oil spraying around in the top end of the heads that you will inevitably end up pulling an oil mist into the PCV system...the more oil that's splashing around (like with high RPM driving), the more this becomes an issue. Due to emissions regulations, any combustion byproducts must be dumped back into the intake manifold to be burned off rather than venting them to atmosphere. At the end of the day, this oil mist gets dumped in your intake manifold, and that can cause all sorts of issues. The main issue is that this oil makes its way to the intake ports and valves, and effectively lowers the octane of the gas that it mixes with as the injectors are firing. If I'm not mistaken, oil has an octane rating of around 50 or so, so although I don't know how much it would take down the octane rating of 93 gas (depends on the volume ratios of both), it is enough that it can cause pinging/detonation.

An oil catch can allows a place for the oil mist to cool down and condense into droplets, so they can effectively drop out of the crankcase fumes they are suspended in. This allows the oil to collect in the can instead of it going into the intake manifold. If you don't mix the oil droplets with the gas, you don't end up lowering the effective octane rating of said gas, giving your engine the best chance to not have any knock/pinging/whatever you want to call it. Basically, you end up getting the maximum amount of performance and durability out of your engine as possible because you aren't allowing garbage back into the combustion chamber to be burned off.

[Steve M]

Bottom line: IMO, yes you need an oil catch can, and you need one sooner than later. Even with only 9,500 miles on my Gen 4 when I bought it, I still has an nice oil glaze on the inside of my intake manifold, and I also had the nice oil snail trails coming out of both throttle bodies from too much oil being pulled in. The oil catch can I'm running has helped to pretty much eliminate that issue entirely. If there is oil getting by, it ain't much.

[SSGNRDZ_28]

Thanks SteveM, you're essentially an automotive encyclopedia!

[viper04]

Thanks SteveM, you're essentially an automotive encyclopedia!
+1 to that!!

[RAY W]

...

[donk_316]

I have a proper RX catch can but I'm trying to figure out how to plumb it into the Viper system as it has 2 inlet hoses and 1 outlet hose. Possibly use both valve covers as inlets and feed the outlet to the intake piping?

[Steve M]

Thanks SteveM, you're essentially an automotive encyclopedia!

I've always liked the quote "Gentlemen, we have run out of money; now we have to think." At this point in my life, I'm a little short on money, but researching problems and solutions is generally free. A catch can is one of those often overlooked items that can potentially have a big impact on the performance of any car, especially one as powerful as a Viper.


I have a proper RX catch can but I'm trying to figure out how to plumb it into the Viper system as it has 2 inlet hoses and 1 outlet hose. Possibly use both valve covers as inlets and feed the outlet to the intake piping?

Here's a couple shots of my RX can:

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/CatchCan4_zpscff1c0eb.jpg

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/CatchCan3_zpsee5d39bc.jpg

I ordered mine with one inlet and one outlet. If you put the can under vacuum (like I have mine hooked up), you will only want to hook one valve cover up to it. There needs to be a source of makeup air (driver's side cover in this case) that is not under vacuum for the system to function properly.

[Jack B]

You need a second can for the drivers side. During high load/rpm, you will force oil into the air cleaner.


I've always liked the quote "Gentlemen, we have run out of money; now we have to think." At this point in my life, I'm a little short on money, but researching problems and solutions is generally free. A catch can is one of those often overlooked items that can potentially have a big impact on the performance of any car, especially one as powerful as a Viper.



Here's a couple shots of my RX can:

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/CatchCan4_zpscff1c0eb.jpg

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/CatchCan3_zpsee5d39bc.jpg

I ordered mine with one inlet and one outlet. If you put the can under vacuum (like I have mine hooked up), you will only want to hook one valve cover up to it. There needs to be a source of makeup air (driver's side cover in this case) that is not under vacuum for the system to function properly.

[Steve M]

You need a second can for the drivers side. During high load/rpm, you will force oil into the air cleaner.

I've actually never had an issue on that side...I check it periodically, and that line stays dry on mine. If I ever do have an issue, I'll come up with something for that side too.

[donk_316]

It's because it's a RX can... Not a typical catch can.

[Steve M]

It's because it's a RX can... Not a typical catch can.

RX makes different varieties...as long as the sides are sealed off from each other, you can run both lines into the same can.

[donk_316]

Thanks for your help :)

I have the dual monster: http://www.rxspeedworks.com/product/catch-can-kits/

[ddominator1]

Hey Steve. Great info. Thanks man. Now just have to order one. Is this pretty simple..to install? Other than can a d bracket would any,addl lines be needed ? If I could get a step by,step instruction how to install would be helpful. ! Best

I'll take a stab at it:

Piston rings make a seal with the cylinder walls - the rings don't seal 100% (they have gaps to allow for expansion/contraction), so inevitably combustion by-products (known as blow-by) make it past the rings into the crankcase/engine block. Those gases inevitably make contact with your engine oil, and those two things don't belong together (you want to keep your engine oil as clean as possible); it also increases the pressure in the crankcase, and that's not good for making sure the rings seal properly. In order to mitigate this problem, engine designers use something known as positive crankcase ventilation (PCV) systems to evacuate these gases. In the most basic sense, the intake manifold vacuum is used to pull the gases out. This vacuum is very restricted...otherwise, you'd end up pulling oil along with it. On a Gen 5 Viper, that's the line that runs from the passenger side valve cover to the intake manifold...the valve that's there is the PCV valve. In addition to restricting the flow, you also need a source of make-up air to be drawn in to the crankcase...essentially, this replaces what the PCV system draws out. On a Viper, that is the line that runs from the airbox to the driver's side valve cover. This line is not under vacuum. These two components (vacuum side with a restrictor valve and a make-up side with the fresh air) make up the PCV system.

Even with baffling in the valve covers, there's still enough oil spraying around in the top end of the heads that you will inevitably end up pulling an oil mist into the PCV system...the more oil that's splashing around (like with high RPM driving), the more this becomes an issue. Due to emissions regulations, any combustion byproducts must be dumped back into the intake manifold to be burned off rather than venting them to atmosphere. At the end of the day, this oil mist gets dumped in your intake manifold, and that can cause all sorts of issues. The main issue is that this oil makes its way to the intake ports and valves, and effectively lowers the octane of the gas that it mixes with as the injectors are firing. If I'm not mistaken, oil has an octane rating of around 50 or so, so although I don't know how much it would take down the octane rating of 93 gas (depends on the volume ratios of both), it is enough that it can cause pinging/detonation.

An oil catch can allows a place for the oil mist to cool down and condense into droplets, so they can effectively drop out of the crankcase fumes they are suspended in. This allows the oil to collect in the can instead of it going into the intake manifold. If you don't mix the oil droplets with the gas, you don't end up lowering the effective octane rating of said gas, giving your engine the best chance to not have any knock/pinging/whatever you want to call it. Basically, you end up getting the maximum amount of performance and durability out of your engine as possible because you aren't allowing garbage back into the combustion chamber to be burned off.

[GTSilver]

Please count me down for one.
Thanks

[SSGNRDZ_28]

Fittings and hose will likely be slightly different depending on the end user install, there will probably be a few places to mount the can and a few different configurations (read through this thread for some background info). For an idea on how I routed the can for my Gen IV (with Gen V intake manifold), see the following:

http://dougshelbyengineering.com/uploads/DSE_Dodge_Viper_SRT-10_Non-Invasive_Radium_Engineering_Catch_Can_Mounting_Bra cket_Rev2.pdf


Hey Steve. Great info. Thanks man. Now just have to order one. Is this pretty simple..to install? Other than can a d bracket would any,addl lines be needed ? If I could get a step by,step instruction how to install would be helpful. ! Best

[swexlin]

I'll take a stab at it:

Piston rings make a seal with the cylinder walls - the rings don't seal 100% (they have gaps to allow for expansion/contraction), so inevitably combustion by-products (known as blow-by) make it past the rings into the crankcase/engine block. Those gases inevitably make contact with your engine oil, and those two things don't belong together (you want to keep your engine oil as clean as possible); it also increases the pressure in the crankcase, and that's not good for making sure the rings seal properly. In order to mitigate this problem, engine designers use something known as positive crankcase ventilation (PCV) systems to evacuate these gases. In the most basic sense, the intake manifold vacuum is used to pull the gases out. This vacuum is very restricted...otherwise, you'd end up pulling oil along with it. On a Gen 5 Viper, that's the line that runs from the passenger side valve cover to the intake manifold...the valve that's there is the PCV valve. In addition to restricting the flow, you also need a source of make-up air to be drawn in to the crankcase...essentially, this replaces what the PCV system draws out. On a Viper, that is the line that runs from the airbox to the driver's side valve cover. This line is not under vacuum. These two components (vacuum side with a restrictor valve and a make-up side with the fresh air) make up the PCV system.

Even with baffling in the valve covers, there's still enough oil spraying around in the top end of the heads that you will inevitably end up pulling an oil mist into the PCV system...the more oil that's splashing around (like with high RPM driving), the more this becomes an issue. Due to emissions regulations, any combustion byproducts must be dumped back into the intake manifold to be burned off rather than venting them to atmosphere. At the end of the day, this oil mist gets dumped in your intake manifold, and that can cause all sorts of issues. The main issue is that this oil makes its way to the intake ports and valves, and effectively lowers the octane of the gas that it mixes with as the injectors are firing. If I'm not mistaken, oil has an octane rating of around 50 or so, so although I don't know how much it would take down the octane rating of 93 gas (depends on the volume ratios of both), it is enough that it can cause pinging/detonation.

An oil catch can allows a place for the oil mist to cool down and condense into droplets, so they can effectively drop out of the crankcase fumes they are suspended in. This allows the oil to collect in the can instead of it going into the intake manifold. If you don't mix the oil droplets with the gas, you don't end up lowering the effective octane rating of said gas, giving your engine the best chance to not have any knock/pinging/whatever you want to call it. Basically, you end up getting the maximum amount of performance and durability out of your engine as possible because you aren't allowing garbage back into the combustion chamber to be burned off.

Thank you! I never really understood this issue either, but this is a very clear explanation that even I can understand. Much appreciated Steve.

[ViperPete]

SO can I have one please?

:devilish:

[swexlin]

Next question: since you're not venting to atmosphere, you're not violating emission laws. So why are hi-po cars factory equipped with catch cans?

[Steve M]

Next question: since you're not venting to atmosphere, you're not violating emission laws. So why are hi-po cars factory equipped with catch cans?

I'm sure there are many reasons, but off the top of my head:

1. Something else to design, manufacture, and install - for something like a Corvette with a large production run, this would likely eat into profits
2. Most manufacturers seem to think this issue can be addressed with well-designed PCV systems that incorporate fancy baffling to eliminate this issue - the LT1 in the C7 Corvette comes to mind. I remember reading about their newest patented PCV system that was supposed to eliminate this issue entirely...it's a big issue for direct injected engines because you no longer have fuel spraying on the intake valves to wash the oil gunk off. To the best of my knowledge, the LT1 still suffers from PCV-related oil ingestion issues.
3. It is something else for the end-user to have to maintain.
4. Maintenance of this system means you have to get rid of this gunk somehow - you can't just pour it back into the engine oil, and I'm sure the EPA would like you to do something with it other than dump it. That's why they want it burned off in the combustion chamber, your engine be damned.

[swexlin]

Steve, I think you nailed it with point number 4!

[SSGNRDZ_28]

The initial test fit went well for both locations. Many thanks to the vehicle donor!

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Next I need to confirm some plumbing and other details to ensure there are no mechanical conflicts before setting up a group buy.

Doug

[TexasTonka]

For a closed system, you really only need one - you just hook up the passenger side valve cover vent to the can, and then run a line from the can back to the intake manifold. The driver's side is the make up air side of things, and pulls air from the non-vacuum side of the inlet (at the air box)...in my experience, the driver's side line collects little to no oil, at least not on my particular car. If you wanted to be safe, you'd need a second can if you wanted to maintain a closed loop system.

If you want to run a breather type can, you'd run both lines to the catch can (requires two inlets) - one from the passenger side, one from the driver's side. The breather in this case acts as the vent as well as the source of make up air for the system.

Under no circumstances would you bring in the lines from the passenger and driver's side valve covers to the same can in a closed loop system - you'll end up with all sorts of weird stuff because the make up air portion of the system (driver's side line) would now be under vacuum. In order for a PCV to properly work, you need to pull the air out of the crank case - in the case of the Viper, this is done on the passenger side valve cover. The line runs from there straight to the intake manifold, putting that line under vacuum...this vacuum is restricted, however, by the PCV valve (that's the silver thing in the pic above). The other thing you need is a source of air to replace what is pulled out under vacuum - this is done on the driver's side valve cover. That line connects to a non-vacuum air source (the air box).

Hopefully that makes some sense. I've been running my closed loop can on my Gen 4 for quite some time, and it seems to have effectively stopped oil ingestion on my mainly street driven car. If you were going to track it, I'd likely run an open breather type of setup (like the ACR-X catch can system) so you could 100% eliminate the possibility of oil ingestion. The only byproduct of a system like that is the potential for fumes...some are more sensitive to it than others.

Great explaination. I have an ACR that I track so I went with the ACRX can, figured a lot of money went into designing it, why try to rethink it. And it is full after a hard track weekend. On road it takes 2-3k miles to fill it up.

This is new solution would be going on my '15 TA2.0 also a track car for me. If I could do a single mount dual inlet vented AWESOME. Just need to check clearances. If not a dual can system looks like it would work.

for street only applications a passenger only side should work, however there is still a chance of oil ingestion from both sides, so even a street only car would benefit from a dual can or ACRX style set up I would assume.

[GTSilver]

Any updates ?

[SSGNRDZ_28]

Had to reboot with a smaller can so that Bracket is underway. The gen V engine bay is tight. There will be a dual input vented and also a single input sealed option.

[Simms]

Any updates?

[SSGNRDZ_28]

I'm pulling parts together for the two kits. I hope to offer the bracket(s), can(s), hoses, fittings, etc as a kit. The new brackets are done. I need to do a test fit to see what works best as soon as I have everything ready. The new catch cans are nice and compact and also cheaper than the Radium offering.

[Simms]

I'm pulling parts together for the two kits. I hope to offer the bracket(s), can(s), hoses, fittings, etc as a kit. The new brackets are done. I need to do a test fit to see what works best as soon as I have everything ready. The new catch cans are nice and compact and also cheaper than the Radium offering.

Sounds great! I like the sound of a complete kit.

[victoryman100]

I'm pulling parts together for the two kits. I hope to offer the bracket(s), can(s), hoses, fittings, etc as a kit. The new brackets are done. I need to do a test fit to see what works best as soon as I have everything ready. The new catch cans are nice and compact and also cheaper than the Radium offering.Let me know when! :)

[KB Viper]

I'm in too

[timberwolf]

IN!

[SSGNRDZ_28]

Thanks, guys. Here are some teaser pics.

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[Nambo]

Thanks, guys. Here are some teaser pics.

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Nice! Wonder if this setup could be used on the revised 2016 setup?

[SSGNRDZ_28]

Nice! Wonder if this setup could be used on the revised 2016 setup?

Yes It will be compatible with all gen V cars.

[1Koolasp 16ACR]

I'm In !!!

[Jack B]

That is very nice, sure better then my Summit special. What about the pass side, I am thinking about changing from my air/oil separator

[SSGNRDZ_28]

Thanks Jack. You can either do a dual input vented or both sides sealed. I suppose you could also do two vented cans but that would be extra expense and cost. These will fit on the front cross bar and also the two side bars. I need to test fit to find what works best.

[Jack B]

I would leave my drivers side in place, you cannot see it, it is low on the fender liner.

But, I would use yours on the pass side, I would remove the pcv valve and go into a vented can with a drain. I do not get anything into my can on the pass side. I run from the pcv valve into an air/oil separator, then, into the can.


Thanks Jack. You can either do a dual input vented or both sides sealed. I suppose you could also do two vented cans but that would be extra expense and cost. These will fit on the front cross bar and also the two side bars. I need to test fit to find what works best.

[SSGNRDZ_28]

Jack what are your thoughts/reasons on removing the PCV valve or keeping it in place?

[Jack B]

I am getting virtually no oil trapped in the separator. This probably points to a PCV valve that is not doing too much, maybe I am over thinking the situation and maybe there is no blow-by. This may also answer why the drivers side is spewing oil into the airbox, that last statement is a stretch.

Removing the pcv valve and going into a vented catch can will be far more effective and there is very little negative to the removal. This is a stretch, but, a maybe a faulty pcv system is why some cars lose so much oil. i thought the lack of baffling is why oil was getting into the airbox, maybe is is partially due to a pcv valve that is not working



Jack what are your thoughts/reasons on removing the PCV valve or keeping it in place?

[Trainerdave]

I'm in as well

[Whitey]

I'm in too.

[TexasTonka]

I'm in 100% for either a dual inlet vented or two single inlet vented.

[ACR Steve]

Doug great work veryyyyy well done

Will this work with the new ACR's and will it be needed with the upgrade ?

[SSGNRDZ_28]

Doug great work veryyyyy well done

Will this work with the new ACR's and will it be needed with the upgrade ?

Thanks, Steve. Yes it will be ACR compatible and I think the drivers side / airbox oil ingestion will be less but the general idea behind the catch can will still apply to 2016+ cars.

[mblgjr]

Yep. Want one.

[FSTENUF]

Yes count me in for a set. Track season will be here in the spring Great set up.

[TexasSnake]

4. Maintenance of this system means you have to get rid of this gunk somehow - you can't just pour it back into the engine oil, and I'm sure the EPA would like you to do something with it other than dump it. That's why they want it burned off in the combustion chamber, your engine be damned.

So approximately how often in terms of miles does this require cleaning out? Does this account for a significant amount of oil between oil changes?

[mblgjr]

Typically just clean them out at every oil change.

[FLATOUT]

Very nice looking forward to getting one on my car.

[donk_316]

I would drain mine every fuel up! I wouldn't wait till an oil change.. No way. That could possibly be a lot of condensation / oil / gross milky coffee shit in there.

The ecoboost will fill a coffee cup per tank of fuel.

[Steve M]

Jack what are your thoughts/reasons on removing the PCV valve or keeping it in place?

I know this wasn't directed at me, but if you have the catch can hooked to the intake manifold (and thus keeping the system under vacuum), the PCV valve needs to remain in place. If you run a vented setup, the PCV valve should be removed...one function of the PCV is to close in the event of a backfire to keep the pressure from entering the crankcase, so the valve essentially only flows one way. This picture should help explain:

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/pcv_system_valve_operation_zpswonpa1cb.jpg

When running a vented can, the vent serves two functions:

1. It vents excess crankcase pressure
2. It is the source of make up air

Because of that, the air needs to be able to flow both ways in order for the system to function properly. If you leave the PCV valve in place on a vented setup where you are running both valve covers to the can, you are essentially not allowing fresh air to flow back into the crankcase.

On a non-vented setup, you'd want to leave the PCV valve in place so you don't start pulling more oil into the system when the intake manifold is under heavy vacuum (idle and decel). The valve restricts the flow into the intake manifold under those conditions.

[victoryman100]

SO excited...... I have had the privilege to work with Doug Shelby of Doug Shelby Engineering (DSE) this past week on the mock up and install of the first GEN V DSE duel sealed catch can system! I can say that this system is a work of art! They are DEFINITELY top shelf all the way! Doug and DSE are fantastic to do business with and the install was so simple. (Me watching Doug do all the work) :witless: Here are a few pictures of the install and mock up. Thanks Again Doug!13453

[victoryman100]

pictures13455

[victoryman100]

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[victoryman100]

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[victoryman100]

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[victoryman100]

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[Steve M]

It appears that Doug has plenty of room for another Viper in his garage...

[SSGNRDZ_28]

Thanks for stopping by today and posting the pictures, victoryman!

For those interested I'm done with the sealed catch can kit and have to design and machine a custom piece for the vented kit plumbing but will be offering a group purchase soon.

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It appears that Doug has plenty of room for another Viper in his garage...

I did send my wife the photo of the two cars telling her that one was just delivered and we couldn't return it :D. I'm not sure that would work if it really happened.

[SSGNRDZ_28]

Looks like a well thought out approach and well executed too.

Will this be an all inclusive package with all lines and fittings?

What are you asking for a pair of these?

Thanks. Yes, everything will be included, the end user/installer will just have to cut the hoses to length because there are some different potential mounting points (front bar vs side bars). Some of the OEM plumbing is reused or adapted to the hoses and the 2016 plumbing is different on the driver side.

TBD on the pricing, coming soon, I'm finalizing parts. The group buy will offer a savings from the list price due to quantity of order.

[KB Viper]

in for the group buy!

[FLATOUT]

Looking forward to the vented can Doug. Great work as usual.

[docwviper]

Thanks. Yes, everything will be included, the end user/installer will just have to cut the hoses to length because there are some different potential mounting points (front bar vs side bars). Some of the OEM plumbing is reused or adapted to the hoses and the 2016 plumbing is different on the driver side.

TBD on the pricing, coming soon, I'm finalizing parts. The group buy will offer a savings from the list price due to quantity of order.

If I could suggest a youtube video on your installs or really good install instructions for us. Also, instructions for a 2016 install would be great as I have an ACR on order.

[95BlackZ28]

I'm in %10,000 percent for a catch can doug... Please let me know. I need this desperately.

[Simms]

In. What's the main pros/cons of vented vs. nonvented?

[Jack B]

Simms:
Vented has a bit of an odor and does not draw vacuum on the crankcase. The closed system puts the filtered crankcase gases back into the intake. Closed is probably the best. I am going to convert mine from vented to closed over the winter. My G2 wasn't too bad, but, the vented system on my G5 has more odor. In either case, you probably want to remove the PCV fitting.

Doug
I am in for two of the closed systems.



In. What's the main pros/cons of vented vs. nonvented?

[Simms]

Simms:
Vented has a bit of an odor and does not draw vacuum on the crankcase. The closed system puts the filtered crankcase gases back into the intake. Closed is probably the best. I am going to convert mine from vented to closed over the winter. My G2 wasn't too bad, but, the vented system on my G5 has more odor. In either case, you probably want to remove the PCV fitting.

Doug
I am in for two of the closed systems.

Thanks Jack. My 96 has vented, so I'm not familiar with a closed system.

[Steve M]

Simms:
Vented has a bit of an odor and does not draw vacuum on the crankcase. The closed system puts the filtered crankcase gases back into the intake. Closed is probably the best. I am going to convert mine from vented to closed over the winter. My G2 wasn't too bad, but, the vented system on my G5 has more odor. In either case, you probably want to remove the PCV fitting.

If you are running a closed system, you'll want to leave the PCV valve in place. Otherwise, you'll pull way too much oil into the can under heavy vacuum (idle and decel).

[SSGNRDZ_28]

The sealed/closed system just inserts a can inline with either the driver side and passenger side (or both) to collect oil and prevent it from entering the airbox and / or intake manifold. It keeps the emissions system otherwise intact as it was from the factory. This system will keep the PCV valve intact. Nothing is vented to the atmosphere.

The vented/open system caps off the airbox and manifold while taking both inputs from the valve covers into the can and venting the filtered air to atmosphere. Shown below with two cans but my system is a single can with both inputs. This system will eliminate the PCV valve. This is generally considered ideal for track cars, maximum performance, when emissions isn't a concern. This is the type of system used on the ACR-X.

These diagrams are from Radium which is not what I'm ultimately using for the Gen V setup.

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[SSGNRDZ_28]

Also I have no idea how emissions inspections view a catch can but everything is 100% reversible back to stock as are all of my products. For the sealed system on 2013-2015 cars you could probably do this without even removing the crossbrace or coil covers, although you might want to have an extra PCV valve handy to expedite the swap just so you didn't have to remove the hose. For the vented system you'd just need to reinstall the hoses to the airbox and manifold, it might be a bit more involved just because of accessibility to these hose ends.

[Jack B]

I have been running my pass side closed without the pcv valve and have not had excessive oil. I played with the pcv valve and did not see much difference when under vac? It appears to be a simple metering valve, but, mine is loose when under vac or not. I do not know why, however, with the pcv valve in place, I pulled no oil into the separator , maybe no blow-by at all..

When you think about the pcv scheme, on a new car, at idle you have no blow-by, therefore, the pcv valve means very little. However, at wot why would you want the 1/8" pcv orifice restricting a 5/8" exit hose.

My dr side is open and does have an odor



If you are running a closed system, you'll want to leave the PCV valve in place. Otherwise, you'll pull way too much oil into the can under heavy vacuum (idle and decel).

[Steve M]

I have been running my pass side closed without the pcv valve and have not had excessive oil. I played with the pcv valve and did not see much difference when under vac? It appears to be a simple metering valve, but, mine is loose when under vac or not. I do not know why, however, with the pcv valve in place, I pulled no oil into the separator , maybe no blow-by at all..

When you think about the pcv scheme, on a new car, at idle you have no blow-by, therefore, the pcv valve means very little. However, at wot why would you want the 1/8" pcv orifice restricting a 5/8" exit hose.

My dr side is open and does have an odor

I guess it depends on the type of separator you're running...it could be presenting enough of a restriction that running without a PCV valve is acceptable. I've seen some other guys (one recently) that ran a catch can without one, and pulled a lot of oil into their cans in a very short amount of time.

The primary issue is all of the oil that is flying around inside of the valve cover...heavy vacuum will pull that oil straight through unless the flow is restricted. That's why the PCV valve is there on the factory setup. Valve construction varies though...some are just simple restrictors (like an 1/8" drilled hole), whereas others have variable valves.

[FSTENUF]

I have one more trip this season with my Gen V then its garage time till next season. Please put me down for 2 complete system the last thing I want is to put anything down on the track other then rubber. Thanks and GREAT JOB very clean looking

[Jack B]

The G5 is an approx 1/8" hole with a spring plunger in the hole.



I guess it depends on the type of separator you're running...it could be presenting enough of a restriction that running without a PCV valve is acceptable. I've seen some other guys (one recently) that ran a catch can without one, and pulled a lot of oil into their cans in a very short amount of time.

The primary issue is all of the oil that is flying around inside of the valve cover...heavy vacuum will pull that oil straight through unless the flow is restricted. That's why the PCV valve is there on the factory setup. Valve construction varies though...some are just simple restrictors (like an 1/8" drilled hole), whereas others have variable valves.

[TexasTonka]

I assume the ACRX catch can didn't throw an odor because it was all the way in the front of the hood under a hood vent with that massive filter on it.

I like the design you've made Doug but the small filter on the single can vented system, will it be able to keep up with everything being thrown at it? I'm no engineer but just comparing the filter size on the ACRX version to this one being a similar engine.
Also when I swap to a 2016 valve cover on the driver side is there any worries?

[SSGNRDZ_28]

I assume the ACRX catch can didn't throw an odor because it was all the way in the front of the hood under a hood vent with that massive filter on it.

I like the design you've made Doug but the small filter on the single can vented system, will it be able to keep up with everything being thrown at it? I'm no engineer but just comparing the filter size on the ACRX version to this one being a similar engine.
Also when I swap to a 2016 valve cover on the driver side is there any worries?

There's a fairly good filter / oil separator inside of the can, I don't expect the external to get very dirty but time will tell. A bigger filter could be fitted if desired with some different plumbing, but keeping the package compact was key for Gen V mounting.

No worries with 2016 just a slightly different routing path.

[Steve M]

I assume the ACRX catch can didn't throw an odor because it was all the way in the front of the hood under a hood vent with that massive filter on it.

Some people have had an odor with the ACR-X can:

http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/9402-Exhaust-fumes-when-windows-up-and-A-C-on-non-recirculate-mode?p=155018&viewfull=1#post155018

[SSGNRDZ_28]

In addition If you were to locate the can on a side bar any fumes should be extracted out though the gills (however, I'm not sure where the air woild travel from there).

[Jack B]

Sort of strange -I now have a few track miles on the car without the pcv valve, the catch can is plumbed into the oem manifold hose and it still gets very little oil into the catch can. It is not totally dry, however, minimal oil.


There's a fairly good filter / oil separator inside of the can, I don't expect the external to get very dirty but time will tell. A bigger filter could be fitted if desired with some different plumbing, but keeping the package compact was key for Gen V mounting.

No worries with 2016 just a slightly different routing path.

[SSGNRDZ_28]

Pricing on these kits will be as follows, I will start a group buy thread with discounted pricing shortly.

Dual input vented catch can kit P/N: DSE-VP-CC-002-DVK $540.00

o Inputs to the can from both valve covers with a vented / filtered can output.
o Airbox and intake manifold are capped, PCV valve is removed, hoses from the airbox and manifold are removed.
o The most cost effective and lightweight solution to catch oil from both valve covers.
o Preferred configuration for track performance
o May emit oil odor / fumes / residue from filter under certain driving conditions
o Contains dual input can with filter, bracket, DSE PCV delete adapter, 2 barbed hose splice, 6 feet of hose, 2 caps

Single sealed catch can kit P/N: DSE-VP-CC-002-SSK $470.00

o Sealed setup inserts catch can inline between the passenger or driver side valve cover and the intake manifold or airbox and keeps the emissions system intact.
o Keeps oil out of the intake manifold or airbox while maintaining a sealed system.
o Contains single input can, bracket, hose barbed splice, 5 feet of hose

Dual sealed catch can kit P/N: DSE-VP-CC-002-DSK $885.00
o Two single catch can kits for both manifold and airbox side

[donk_316]

Price on dual input sealed single can please

[SSGNRDZ_28]

Price on dual input sealed single can please

If you have a dual input can it needs to be vented so that's not an option unfortunately. The cheapest option for a sealed solution would be to pick a side and run one can.

[donk_316]

Curious. My last RX Can was a dual input sealed system.