What is the point of the Gen V ACR chasing the 'Ring record?

[ViperSmith]

I am not looking for the "It should always be the best!" type of responses.

Here in 2013 (2014) we are in the boon of "hyper exotics" like the P1 which, are massive R&D projects which have virtually the only purpose of running the 'Ring in a blistering fast speed. The claims are it has done well under 7 seconds.

I'd postulate that SRT is better spending its money further developing the Vipers capabilities for the average man and ignore spending an untold sum, as some want SRT to do, to "reclaim the 'Ring record."

A majority of Vipers stay at home in the United States. Wouldn't it make more sense for SRT to focus on further developing the program to satisfy the needs of a majority of its buyers. The longest track in the US is 4.486 at Miller Motorsports Park, a fraction of the length of the 'Ring.

If SRT manages to build a car that can best the P1 at the 'Ring by pure chance, I say run it, but I don't think focusing on setting the 'Ring record is an efficient use of limited funds.

[Viper Girl]

Back when I wanted to see a Owners run at the 'Ring with the new gearing on the 2010 ACR... I spoke with Viper engineers and they gave me a ballpark figure that it cost them to do the run...
It was less than $100k, renting the ring, shipping the car, airline tix for the team... If you look at it from the standpoint of advertising... for less than $100k all the magazines are singing your name...

That's cheap advertising to promote your brand, IF you can set a record.


Then think about the paddle shifting trans in the race cars, those are said to be 90k ea... Taken into perspective that 'Ring run is a bargain.

[FLATOUT]

I agree about the Hypercar, and the fact that some of these numbers might very well out of reach for anything but a 7 figure vehicle. That being said the fact that an ACR Viper can come within sniffing distance of the fastest cars the world has ever seen while beating 99% of them, I think, proves it's value to the buyer. A $150,000 ACR Viper that finishes a mear 10 seconds behind one maybe two hyper cars globally that will crest 7 figures to purchase, suddenly becomes an extremely capable option for the guy in the $300,000-$500,000 price range to add to the stable.

I wish for SRT to make the best version of each generation of the Viper possible. Always set one version up for track duty and see what it does. A major multi million dollar effort and a complete change in the vehicle from top to bottom to achieve the overall record doesn't make any sense to me either.

I think of the Ring edition LFA that is never seen in public, or a ring edition AMG type SLS car. An ACR that I can drive over to Tomball Dodge and see with my own eyes, and purchase same day that goes 7:00 or 6:99 at the Ring would be mind blowing.

[ViperSmith]

Back when I wanted to see a Owners run at the 'Ring with the new gearing on the 2010 ACR... I spoke with Viper engineers and they gave me a ballpark figure that it cost them to do the run...
It was less than $100k, renting the ring, shipping the car, airline tix for the team... If you look at it from the standpoint of advertising... for less than $100k all the magazines are singing your name...

That's cheap advertising to promote your brand, IF you can set a record.


Then think about the paddle shifting trans in the race cars, those are said to be 90k ea... Taken into perspective that 'Ring run is a bargain.

And I realize all of that - I guess my focus was, if the Gen V ACR happens to slaughter the Ring, so be it. But, I don't think SRT should focus on it, at all.

I think there has been a lot of focus by Viper enthusiasts who can't wait for the Gen V ACR to hit the ring, which I am sure it will do fine at, but IMHO SRT spending any money to specifically shoot for the 'Ring is a useless waste of resources.

I will agree, $100k for what they got out of it advertising wise is a steal.

[ViperSmith]

I agree about the Hypercar, and the fact that some of these numbers might very well out of reach for anything but a 7 figure vehicle. That being said the fact that an ACR Viper can come within sniffing distance of the fastest cars the world has ever seen while beating 99% of them, I think, proves it's value to the buyer. A $150,000 ACR Viper that finishes a mear 10 seconds behind one maybe two hyper cars globally that will crest 7 figures to purchase, suddenly becomes an extremely capable option for the guy in the $300,000-$500,000 price range to add to the stable.

I wish for SRT to make the best version of each generation of the Viper possible. Always set one version up for track duty and see what it does. A major multi million dollar effort and a complete change in the vehicle from top to bottom to achieve the overall record doesn't make any sense to me either.

I think of the Ring edition LFA that is never seen in public, or a ring edition AMG type SLS car. An ACR that I can drive over to Tomball Dodge and see with my own eyes, and purchase same day that goes 7:00 or 6:99 at the Ring would be mind blowing.

I think with the Gen V, SRT has made the Viper more "accessible" to those that are more novices at tracking with the addition of traction control, etc. IMHO, spending money developing a program where people who buy new Vipers get some sort of track training, would be a massive boost. You get it with a ZR1, SRT needs to step up to the plate.

Cover the cost of the Ron Fellows-esqe school and get people driving the cars the way they are meant to!

Agree with your points on the "Ring Cars" that you never see on the road.

[01sapphirebob]

Bragging rights among other things. The cars that are better then the Viper at the ring (and this debate could go on and on so lets not turn it into that) cost A LOT more and aren't considered production cars. The ACR was a car that almost anyone could buy off the showroom floor of your local dodge dealer and run it at the track. Holding the 'Ring record gives merit or validation to what the engineers have done with the car and advertised its capable of doing. It shows it's a PROVEN track machine.

The GEN V ACR (when it comes out) will probably go to the 'Ring. I'd be interested to see what it does.

[TrackAire]

The Ring record or very strong Ring times gives you much more marketing payback on a global scale than 25 million dollars worth of advertising can provide. Look at all the talk and press Nissan has received this last couple of weeks on the new GTR and its 7:08 Ring time. That is not even a valid time (as a production car) since the car is not in production or even available for another year. But, look a the press they are getting....and that amount of press in the USA is minor. On the global scale of things it is very important. Most petrol heads have heard about the Dakar race. The average person in the USA has no idea what it is. But in Europe, the Middle East, Russia, Asia, etc they stop normal TV programming to give updates and special reports on the days events. Mitsubishi, Volkswagen, etc can spend tens of millions on a race program because winning sells cars on a global scale. Although people think that most buyers of the Viper are in the USA, a lot of them are not from the USA but live here.

Ring times support the high performance market the same way. Just because we don't see the hype in the USA about it, many people from other countries live here and follow the results. You can't buy that type of advertising. How long did you discuss your favorite Superbowl commercial from two years ago?.....do you even remember what it was? But, the reality is the 2010 Viper has the production car Ring record and it is still being discussed or at least listed as a car to beat. Like the old saying goes, there is no bad press as long as they get your name right. Even if the Viper is 3rd or 4th fastest on the list, it is on the list. A list that is talked about and argued over by the demographics that matter.

The cost to do a Ring attempt is less than the cost of keeping the electricity on in the Chrysler building for a week. If Chrysler cannot afford the minuscule cost of a Ring attempt, then they don't deserve to be in the high performance market. With the record car sales Chrysler has reported this week, I'm sick and tired of hearing that there is no money in the budget to make a kick butt halo car. It's time to make a statement and "not in the budget" does not instill the performance mindset I require if they want my purchasing dollars.

George

[Thawk97]

I suppose it depends on what it actually costs, but I remember when the Viper most recently claimed the title - it gave even me, a long time Viper fan, a brand new level of respect for the car. I'd say in terms of exposure, it'd be worth a fair sum assuming it can set a lap which isn't beaten shortly thereafter (they may want to determine what sort of margin they can create for themselves relative to other cars who may try in the near future). And, hopefully it does not have to come at the expense of some other opportunities to improve the "everyman's" version of the car.

[Shooter]

Very well put TrackAire

[ViperSmith]

But that is my point. The Gen IV ACR ran the time as an afterthought.

I hold to my statement, the Gen V ACR should run the 'Ring as an afterthought as well. IMHO SRT should focus any investments it will make on racing customers will actually do - not what someone being flown to the 'Ring should do.

Thats my point. Build an ACR that customers will use, not that you sell to hold some record for a fleeting period of time. The ACR-X ran the ring over just fine and I think the Gen V ACR whenever it gets there will be closer to that than the Gen IV ACR.

[viperr]

I think that if the Gen V ACR can run it below 7 minutes it would be in an exclusive club, assuming it is at a reasonable cost. We still have a lot of people who don't know they are still building Vipers. I know the car magazines enjoy fast runs and it would be nice publicity and let people know how much faster it is than the C7 or many other newer cars.

[BlknBlu]

Lots of good points, but I do not think that a new version of the ACR is going to topple the Porsche 918. Price makes no difference for the record, but it does make a difference in real world owners and purchasing power.

Bruce

[FLATOUT]

What will matter will be the Chevy time. The Gen IV ACR always enjoyed the fact that everyone knew that it was a monster track weapon. The 7:22 and 7:12 times were ahead of the Chevy competition even if most standard street figures like 0-60 were even between the ZR1, Z06, and Vipers. The ring proves because of it's length and high speeds what cars "generally" are truly faster in all facets of performance.

They have to stay ahead of the Vettes.

[TrackAire]

Lots of good points, but I do not think that a new version of the ACR is going to topple the Porsche 918. Price makes no difference for the record, but it does make a difference in real world owners and purchasing power.

Bruce

I think some "rules" about what constitutes a Ring record for a production car needs to be put in place. Here are some of the rules I would suggest so that special prototypes and factory ringers (pardon the pun) don't take away from real production car attempts.

-Minimum quantity of cars built per year (lets say 100 or 200 cars built per year to qualify for production Ring record claims)
-Car must be available for sale to the general public before the Ring attempt can be attempted or validated, must be a street legal car with a VIN, etc.
-Car must be available for sale in the USA and meet our safety and emissions requirements. If it isn't available to the largest market in the world, is it really the worlds best???
-Cars must be equipped as bought from the manufacturer....no added roll cages, special safety harnesses, etc. This is a production car and should be run as the manufacturer supplies it the the consumer. If the manufacturer doesn't have it listed as an option, it can not be added just for the Ring attempt.
-No ceiling on price....it can be as expensive as heck as long as it meets the above requirements.

The 918 will have no problem meeting the quantity requirements, but Ring attempts done before the actual car is available for sale means nothing to me for "production car" records IMO. Not sure I can even buy the 918 in the USA yet.

Soooooo by my rules (lol), the 3 year old record of the 2010 Gen 4 ACR still stands!!

George

[Policy Limits]

The 2 second club: 918, Aventador, GT-R, MP4-12C

Nuff said

[Late Apex]

The Ring is always for bragging rights and SRT should stay on top of it especially with the Nismo GT R with the bragging rights now. It gives top honors to mass produced street cars and certainly helps sales.

[FLATOUT]

The 2 second club: 918, Aventador, GT-R, MP4-12C

Nuff said

Are you referring to 0-60 times? So handling, braking, top speed, vehicle dynmanics mean nothing to you? You basically found the most basic performance test to judge a car from. Seems legit.

[viperdan]

I in part bought my 2009 ACR due to its track prowess at the Ring! Nothing wrong with owning the baddest and fastest car at the local cruise night either!

[FLATOUT]

I in part bought my 2009 ACR due to its track prowess at the Ring! Nothing wrong with owning the baddest and fastest car at the local cruise night either!

As did I. I still think this is why so many of the early Vipers sold well, they were so far out in front of everyone and it wasn't even close.

[Policy Limits]

Oh you wanna talk suspension? How many drivers died in early model vipers once they left the straight line? Better yet what % of them lived?

I don't know the answer but I'm curious to know and suspect there were many; new snake, not so much

[Troublemaker]

If you don't get why, you won't get why. This is what the Viper has always been about. Trying to turn it into a luxury car was and still is a mistake. That sub 7 ring monster could be the most stripped down pseudo race car that just barely counts as street legal and it means more than all the fluff they added to sell this to people that really never wanted a Viper.

[commandomatt]

Oh you wanna talk suspension? How many drivers died in early model vipers once they left the straight line? Better yet what % of them lived?

I don't know the answer but I'm curious to know and suspect there were many; new snake, not so much

So you are saying that the Gen V allows you to be a bad driver and let you drive it at a level (beyond your capability) where an earlier Viper would not.

Guess what happens when the nannies you depend on so much cant cover your any longer and let go...

Matt

[Policy Limits]

Nannies can certainly fail, no question. But I'm guessing there's a reason why they are legally mandated is all

[Troublemaker]

Nannies can certainly fail, no question. But I'm guessing there's a reason why they are legally mandated is all


Yeah, the dumbification of society. They need to protect from the dumbest, up. I have no doubt insurance companies were partly to blame.

[FLATOUT]

Nannies can certainly fail, no question. But I'm guessing there's a reason why they are legally mandated is all

Because lazy drivers never take the time to actually learn to drive, so we must dumb down the platform so you don't kill yourself.

But if 0-60 is the only test you're concerned about why did you buy a Viper?

And we are discussing the Gen V Viper ring time, not Gen 1 Viper handling characteristcs. You were comparing the car you currently own (2013 Viper) to the "2 second club" in a thread based around hyper cars on the worlds most demanding road circuit and somehow you decided to throw in 0-60 times as the most important measure of a current production vehicle.

0-60 times were important when I was in highschool. An acceleration test of 1st gear only is about the shallowest measure of a super cars performance there is.

[Policy Limits]

If it doesn't matter why does the test exist? Not bashing the car, I bought it, like it, have always liked it, and some times catch myself staring at it in the garage. But it's difficult to be king if the ring in this hyper car world when your budget and resources are limited and when the funds you do have can be spent in other areas, which is what I thought the OP's opinion was, which I agree with. OP correct me if I'm wrong.

Ill bet over 90% of all viper owners from all gens never tracked; but that's just a guess.

[viperdan]

It is my opinion that the Ring is the most pure test of not only a cars performance capabilities but also the engineering and design as well. For instance the ACR could have had 800 hp but if it did not possess it's amazing aero package it would have not run 7:12. The Ring is a true testament to all around abilities, kind of like in baseball a five tool player that can throw, hit, hit for power, run and play defense. Some players only possess a couple or three specialties, the guys who are five tool players are the most beneficial to a team. The Viper does everything well on a track, if the ZR1 for instance had as good an aero package it may have run 7:12 as well, but we'll never know for they designed it the way they did.

[ViperSmith]

If it doesn't matter why does the test exist? Not bashing the car, I bought it, like it, have always liked it, and some times catch myself staring at it in the garage. But it's difficult to be king if the ring in this hyper car world when your budget and resources are limited and when the funds you do have can be spent in other areas, which is what I thought the OP's opinion was, which I agree with. OP correct me if I'm wrong.

Ill bet over 90% of all viper owners from all gens never tracked; but that's just a guess.

Pretty much. If the car can run a great time at the 'Ring, so be it. But, IMHO, SRT should focus on what the car can do a US based tracks, because lets be honest there is where a majority (and Canada) of cars are sold and raced.

I don't know why anyone construed what I said as "SRT shouldn't run the car at the 'Ring" - just I don't think it should be what they are shooting for.

I just think there will be a lot of excuses to why it can't beat the P1 and 918 - "Those cars cost $1m+ you can't expect to beat them" or some "They only built them for a year it isn't a real production car." While all along people touted the the Gen IV ACR as beating cars that cost in that range as being better.

To me, building a car that is demonstrable as superior on tracks people that can actually race them is a better selling point than one that can hold a 'Ring record for a short period of time, if at all.

Would it be cool if the Gen V ACR beat the P1 around the 'Ring, you bet ya. But, I wouldn't put my money on the fact it can. McLaren is very well funded.

[FLATOUT]

If it doesn't matter why does the test exist? Not bashing the car, I bought it, like it, have always liked it, and some times catch myself staring at it in the garage. But it's difficult to be king if the ring in this hyper car world when your budget and resources are limited and when the funds you do have can be spent in other areas, which is what I thought the OP's opinion was, which I agree with. OP correct me if I'm wrong.

Ill bet over 90% of all viper owners from all gens never tracked; but that's just a guess.

0-60 does matter, but it's an extremely basic test, and really a much better predictor or 1/8 and 1/4 mile performance. Vipers were never designed to be drag cars, they work there because of the power levels but it's just scratching the surface of any super or hyper car. Which is why 90% of these folks buying cars of this level are concerned with ring times not 0-60 times.

We all agreed that the hypercars are putting the ring record out of reach for any 140K car, so you agree with the majority on that decision.

The Gen V ACR needs to run the ring to remind everyone just how fast these things are. The Gen IV ACR beat all the hyper cars of it's time on the same lousy budget that Dodge has always had which is what makes it that much cooler.

The OP was addressing the overall changes that would need to be made to the production cars to compete at that level and the price of that vehicle once it would be produced. The cost of actually taking vehicles over there, renting the track, and running the attempts are expensive (ask Tomball Dodge) but not out of this world for a major manufacturer.

I think you build an ACR similar to what we have now, add the aero, better tires, brakes, and let it fly. A set of carbon ceramic brakes, and possibly a DC paddle shift trans and I bet it could do some damage to the old ring time. I think a target time of the old ACRX time would be a great benchmark to shoot for.

And I know you are new to the Viper scene but there are a lot of owners that track their cars, more so than you would think even if it's only a few times a year.

[JonB ~ PartsRack]

RingRecord:

1) Pride of ownership (a lot of informed enthusiats KNOW the N'Ring and Laguna records. Time Decal is a conversation starter).
2) Inspiration to buy one = marketing value to sell a handful.
3) SRT Team Morale builder extraodinaire. Builder / designer pride. A 1000% cargasm at CTC-FREC-CAAP.
4) Low cost; [but an all-in roll of the dice due to weather etc.]


And about drivers-aids-nannies: Lottsa nannyfied cars in wrecking yards. Stupid mistakes / mechanical breaks / tire ignorance.

[slitherv10]

Well here's my .02 cents,

I had mentioned in another post here about the race car division and how it took a lot of the money away from enhancing this car more as an everyday driver with balls and less of a race car on the track. I'm sure a lot more money is spent there than testing a car around a track. The original poster is emphasizing that the importance of this car should be targeted toward the daily driver and not the race car driver. I totally agree. When you invent or introduce a product, you market it to the many, not the few. The many here are the daily drivers/cruisers/road racers. Excuse the road racing thing but lets admit it, a lot of us have punched this car many times on the street be it beside a vette or another competitor, but, we have. On that note, proving that a car can blister a time around a track means nothing to people who buy this car for 90% street use. There will never be a time on the street where you will reach the speeds and similar circumstance that the Nurburgring offers. So, why care? I would care more about the 0-60 time as that would affect me more on the street than the sub 7 time on the track which I will never reach.
This brings me to the earlier point. Take the money out of the race division and use it to produce what the BIG market is asking for. The market that is asking for an ACR car which should prove itself on the street. By on the street I mean, the look ( that's a given), the sound, the short burst of power, some of the "needed" amenities, and the choice of custom cars for the individual as most ACRs have always been but in this case let the customer decide its character. Make them exclusive and personal.
Make the car with all the traits that got it to this point in the early years ( the HP , and performance) and put it back 2 steps ahead of the competition where it belongs and you'll bring back the fear and wow factor it always had. This alone will show the world that the Viper is back. Not the track time at Nurburgring or the position it places at the ALMS. Those are not what brought the Viper to the king of the Hill status back then. Infact, the Viper didn't win big until the 98-2000 years anyway. From 92-97 the Viper built its status from the drivers car, it didn't need a race division or track time. it sold out because of what it was not what it could do there.
The money to make the ACR is there if they regroup and focus on the bigger market. Us ! Once its established again and regains its fear among the rest, then and only then do you bring back the race division. Until then, build it to tear up the streets once again and put fear in their (competitions) eyes again.

[commandomatt]

Nannies can certainly fail, no question. But I'm guessing there's a reason why they are legally mandated is all

No....Its actually You...The driver, that fail. The nannies are there to try to help you from making mistakes but can only help you to a certain point.

...and of course. Everything that is legally mandated is in place because it makes sense (wow!....enter sheep)

Matt

[Late Apex]

Hey Chuck where are you on this nanny stuff? You here or still just on the VCA. LOL. We need you here too

[Newport Viper]

RingRecord:

The Vipers time has come and gone there.
The McLaren P1 will put it out of reach. http://cars.mclaren.com/p1.html
A 640HP Gen V Viper with aero.... is not enough HP to break 7 seconds.
The tires the Gen V has now won't cut it.

I suggest if you haven't driven it..... you get on a plane this summer and do it before it is sold. TRUST me. You want to go drive it. It's was worth every euro. :)
The Ring will be gone before you know it so the records won't matter much longer anyways. http://www.autoblog.com/2013/03/18/nurburgring-for-sale-yours-for-only-165-million/

[ACR Steve]

Ok you guys heard It first here ACRSteve's prediction when tested the future ACR will break the 7:00 barrier at the Ring
Why?
1) Ralph will make sure it does- I have 100% confidence in him- He gets all this stuff better then we do ,hes a car guy 110%
2) New car is as fast without aero- we know at a track like the Ring aero is worth 6-8 seconds at the very least
3) tires the car comes with will be better
4) Car will be lighter then the stock car and stiffer
5) This time we will have more lap time
6) I think it might have a little more HP over the current car

We may not be the fastest ever but we will break 7 minutes - you guys heard it first

[viperdan]

Ok you guys heard It first here ACRSteve's prediction when tested the future ACR will break the 7:00 barrier at the Ring
Why?
1) Ralph will make sure it does- I have 100% confidence in him- He gets all this stuff better then we do ,hes a car guy 110%
2) New car is as fast without aero- we know at a track like the Ring aero is worth 6-8 seconds at the very least
3) tires the car comes with will be better
4) Car will be lighter then the stock car and stiffer
5) This time we will have more lap time
6) I think it might have a little more HP over the current car

We may not be the fastest ever but we will break 7 minutes - you guys heard it first

1000% nailed it Steve! I couldn't agree more!!!

[mjorgensen]

Well here's my .02 cents,

I had mentioned in another post here about the race car division and how it took a lot of the money away from enhancing this car more as an everyday driver with balls and less of a race car on the track. I'm sure a lot more money is spent there than testing a car around a track. The original poster is emphasizing that the importance of this car should be targeted toward the daily driver and not the race car driver. I totally agree. When you invent or introduce a product, you market it to the many, not the few. The many here are the daily drivers/cruisers/road racers. Excuse the road racing thing but lets admit it, a lot of us have punched this car many times on the street be it beside a vette or another competitor, but, we have. On that note, proving that a car can blister a time around a track means nothing to people who buy this car for 90% street use. There will never be a time on the street where you will reach the speeds and similar circumstance that the Nurburgring offers. So, why care? I would care more about the 0-60 time as that would affect me more on the street than the sub 7 time on the track which I will never reach.
This brings me to the earlier point. Take the money out of the race division and use it to produce what the BIG market is asking for. The market that is asking for an ACR car which should prove itself on the street. By on the street I mean, the look ( that's a given), the sound, the short burst of power, some of the "needed" amenities, and the choice of custom cars for the individual as most ACRs have always been but in this case let the customer decide its character. Make them exclusive and personal.
Make the car with all the traits that got it to this point in the early years ( the HP , and performance) and put it back 2 steps ahead of the competition where it belongs and you'll bring back the fear and wow factor it always had. This alone will show the world that the Viper is back. Not the track time at Nurburgring or the position it places at the ALMS. Those are not what brought the Viper to the king of the Hill status back then. Infact, the Viper didn't win big until the 98-2000 years anyway. From 92-97 the Viper built its status from the drivers car, it didn't need a race division or track time. it sold out because of what it was not what it could do there.
The money to make the ACR is there if they regroup and focus on the bigger market. Us ! Once its established again and regains its fear among the rest, then and only then do you bring back the race division. Until then, build it to tear up the streets once again and put fear in their (competitions) eyes again.


If this defines "street use" and what new cars should be measured by then the most popular form of racing right now is not drag racing, but roll racing 40-120 or 150 times are what really show street performance since they reduce the 2wd/4wd factors IMHO.

[VPRPWRD]

If this defines "street use" and what new cars should be measured by then the most popular form of racing right now is not drag racing, but roll racing 40-120 or 150 times are what really show street performance since they reduce the 2wd/4wd factors IMHO.

I agree with this, also eliminates driver somewhat, because launching a stick shift car takes lots of practice IMO.

[rw99]

As Mark points out above, stock-for-stock, the AWD DCT cars own the street. Really not up for debate, unless you specify roll racing.

As for the road course, there's really no need to immediately go "all-in" for a 'Ring visit. The previous ACR set all sorts of track records here in the US (many of us probably have that "record tour" shirt :D); all SRT has to do is start at the neighborhood tracks with the Gen V ACR. If you can't go sub-1:58.5 at Miller (where the benchmarks are Kuno in the Gen IV ACR 1:59.995 and Jan Magnussen in the old ZR1 2:03.86), you're probably not going to get a 7:06 or lower at the 'Ring. Maybe a lower-altitude track would be a better site, but my point is you've got a bunch of benchmarks from the previous ACR that are simple, domestic excursions.

[Resident Alien]

I wonder how much of that P1's 7 figure price tag is explained by mark-up and how much by new hybrid tech R&D divided over an extremely low volume item that still needs to make a profit. We have yet to see official Ring times for the P1 and LaFerrari and we know they both already tested there. Rumor has it P1 did a 7.03. But why let objective data (or lack thereof) get in the way of our intimidation by price tags.

Meanwhile a $100k car did a 6.48 lap a long time ago. Yes it is not road legal and weighs next to nothing but I consider an ACR much closer in DNA to that Radical than to today's space age uber-hyper-super-duper billionaire toys driven by flux capacitors.

[ACRucrazy]

If there is any truth to this..

http://bridgetogantry.com/2/index.php/btg-laptimes/581-video-mclaren-p1-under-7


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9IWiTpWeiM#t=87


There's a McLaren dealer going in across from our Porsche dealership. In talking with those guys they said they contacted the manufacturer about the ring time as they have sold some P1's and the customers want to know. McLaren told them the P1 ran a 6:47 on street tires and a 6:33 on slicks. The only reason there holding back on releasing the time is because there waiting for Ferrari to release the LaFerrari's time first so Ferrari doesn't use their time as a benchmark and try and go beat it"

[ViperSmith]

I wonder how much of that P1's 7 figure price tag is explained by mark-up and how much by new hybrid tech R&D divided over an extremely low volume item that still needs to make a profit. We have yet to see official Ring times for the P1 and LaFerrari and we know they both already tested there. Rumor has it P1 did a 7.03. But why let objective data (or lack thereof) get in the way of our intimidation by price tags.

Meanwhile a $100k car did a 6.48 lap a long time ago. Yes it is not road legal and weighs next to nothing but I consider an ACR much closer in DNA to that Radical than to today's space age uber-hyper-super-duper billionaire toys driven by flux capacitors.

They haven't sold them all yet apparently. There are a few slots open.

I see McLaren building this to sell the 12C. "Look what McLaren is capabible of"

I love the 12C and hope to grab one eventually... If the "Baby Mac" comes out in 2015, I'll be ordering.

If it ran the 6:47, I just don't see how SRT can come close. I will be gladly proven wrong, but that is a STAGGERING time.

[Resident Alien]

They haven't sold them all yet apparently. There are a few slots open.

I see McLaren building this to sell the 12C. "Look what McLaren is capabible of"

I love the 12C and hope to grab one eventually... If the "Baby Mac" comes out in 2015, I'll be ordering.

If it ran the 6:47, I just don't see how SRT can come close. I will be gladly proven wrong, but that is a STAGGERING time.


Agreed, if there is any truth to the 6.33 and 6.47 times, that would be absolutely mind-blowing and put the P1 out of the reach of any road legal or barely road legal Viper. That video surely looks impressive.

[TrackAire]

Agreed, if there is any truth to the 6.33 and 6.47 times, that would be absolutely mind-blowing and put the P1 out of the reach of any road legal or barely road legal Viper. That video surely looks impressive.

Don't believe everything you read or hear. Per another website that has an industry insider "McLaren's position is that they won't be telling anyone because they think chasing lap times under variable conditions with no verification process is fruitless."

So McLaren might be fast, they just won't say how fast, lol. Can you even buy a P1 in the USA yet (not order, but actually drive the dang thing)? The car would be a failure if it did not go under the 7 minute mark, but I would love to see an attempt with a "production" version this summer. Pre-production cars can be very different than the consumer model.

George

[FLATOUT]

That P1 Video is ungodly awesome! Damn I want one, everything that the 12C doesn't do for me the P1 does.

Truly an amazing accomplishment.

[VRYALT3R3D]

SVT’s Jamal Hameedi Weighs-In With His Opinion of The 2013 GT500 @ The Nürburgring



Ring times! Oh man don't even get me started on this topic. Our (my) view is that there is no such thing as an official manufacturer Ring time. The times being posted by many manufacturers are in my humble opinion akin to qualifying times being set at a race with no pre/post inspection (ie it would never happen). In the racing world - inspection/verification is a key part of the sport. In order for us to set an "official" time corner weights would have to be taken, calibration checksums need to be verified, engine power verified via chassis rolls, a hoist inspection, and probably a fuel sample taken by an independent 3rd party like a governing/sanctioning body. I would love to see this since everyone seems to be infatuated with Ring times. Having said that, I think it's really important that performance cars be judged against one another on the track - but the comparisons really need to be on the same day by a professional driver (just track condition from day to day puts another huge variable in comparisons). We have seen lap time spreads of over 3 sec with same car same driver different day at VIR. Now extrapolate that to a track with a 7 min lap time. Motor Trend collects cars on the same day and puts a professional driver behind the wheel - not journalists whose driving ability puts yet another huge variable in lap times - and compares vehicles same driver same day. I think they do it correctly. So does Auto Motor und Sport in Germany.

The reason we test at the Ring is because it is a fantastic venue for doing vehicle dynamics work. You get so much different content in terms of turns, elevation, etc that you would need to visit 5 different tracks to duplicate it. It's also a chance for our North American vehicle dynamics guys to cross pollinate with our Team RS guys since we are all one group now. Team RS gets a chance to offer feedback on the RWD cars and the SVT guys offer perspective on the FWD cars. That's really powerful and worth spending the money to send cars and engineers over there. Renting the Ring exclusively ($$$$$!) to make a video - not so much. I'd rather put that money into the car.

I know this isn't what the internet bench racers want to hear. As soon as there is a standard for measuring lap times - our performance vehicles will be the first in line to get tested. Until then - it's just marketing and a total free for all. They are very cool to watch though. Lol. The 2013/2014 GT500 sold just fine without a published Ring time (who could have imagined!). Actually we spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to make more GT500s due to high demand. I've seen other performance cars with published Ring times being offered with incentives and cash on the hood (again - who could have imagined!). So I sleep pretty well at night. And spend my days (and nights) working on the next slayer vs. worrying about Ring times.

Hopefully this gives you some perspective on where our minds are at wrt Ring times.
See you at SEMA!

Jamal

Same thing applies to the Viper imo

[rw99]

McLaren active rear wing is sooooo cool...

[VRYALT3R3D]

McLaren active rear wing is sooooo cool...

x2

After market created an active wing for the Corvette

http://aeromotions.com/

Maybe a part for the Viper can be created if their is sufficient demand.

[Newport Viper]

That P1 Video is ungodly awesome!

That Video really shows what it like to be there! One of my best travel experiences ever!

The compression and rebound you need in a car for that track is staggering. See 1:20

[FLATOUT]

SVT’s Jamal Hameedi Weighs-In With His Opinion of The 2013 GT500 @ The Nürburgring



Same thing applies to the Viper imo

Doesn't surprise me that a Pony Car manufacturer would try to discredit the ring times. It like Ferrari or Lambo saying 1/4 mile times are worthless because their cars are capable of so much more, while a GT500 engineer would trumpet their factory drag car running 10.9's stock.

The one thing I do agree with is that it's all about marketing once the data is used to make the cars better.

- - - Updated - - -


That Video really shows what it like to be there! One of my best travel experiences ever!

The compression and rebound you need in a car for that track is staggering. See 1:20

I watch the ACR ring DVD all the time lol.

[Newport Viper]

x2

http://aeromotions.com/



All the kids in Santa Ana have wings just like that.

[Newport Viper]

I watch the ACR ring DVD all the time lol.


Here is the a photo from my hotel balcony. http://hotel-eifel-nuerburgring.dorint.com/ The F1 track is right next to the Ring. They can also be combined!

http://driveviper.com/gallery/data/500/medium/800.JPG

http://driveviper.com/gallery/data/500/medium/810.JPG

I had a great "view" :)

http://driveviper.com/gallery/data/500/medium/842.JPG

[Newport Viper]

http://driveviper.com/gallery/data/500/medium/805.JPG

[FLATOUT]

Pretty awesome stuff.

[Nine Ball]

Okay, I'll chime in.

'Ring records do have some marketing value, but maybe not as much as some people believe. I think there is still a brand new ACR "Ring" Edition Viper at Tomball Dodge. You'd think the Ring record guys would have bought it by now, after 3 years. But the media loves chatting about the 'Ring and lap times, so any news that gets the Viper brand out there and discussed is good.

0-60 times are a joke. That metric was derived several decades ago, when cars were slow and it took them forever to reach 60 mph. Today, minivans do a better job at hitting 60 than most "performance" cars of that era. I cannot stand 0-60 times, as that is largely a function of traction alone. On the highway, 60-130 times would be more indicative of actual performance. The GT-R gets to 60 mph quicker due to AWD and traction, but if you start from 60 the Viper wins every time. They should have adopted the 0-100-0 metric for measuring all performance cars. Screw 60 mph, that isn't racing. How about 0-200 for the higher end performance cars? Magazine drivers wouldn't have the sack to attempt it.

Someone at SRT marketing needs to hire McLaren to do their marketing for them. That video is brilliant and is what daydreaming about a car is like. I love the P1, and that video is something I can rewind in my mind at any time now. There was a time when all of us were younger, and we daydreamed about Vipers. SRT marketing has to get that back. Spending the big bucks to run ALMS races doesn't sell cars. People that attend those races are pretty well brand loyal before coughing up a few hundred in tickets to go watch racing. And, that racing isn't something that is viewed by the vast majority of auto enthusiasts. TV commercials placed within shows that capture the target demographic would be more useful, especially if the commercials looked like that McLaren video.

[XSnake]

IMO, SRT will wait for a real production car to break the record, not a $500,000-$600,000 hypercar. If the C7Z or ZR1 go out and break it you'll hear of an ACR release soon afterwards and a trip to the Ring shortly after that.

You have to keep in mind that ViperExchange.com was mostly responsible for the last trip NOT SRT.

[Policy Limits]

I'd like to see a car break the 918 records set in any test or measure.

[ViperSmith]

IMO, SRT will wait for a real production car to break the record, not a $500,000-$600,000 hypercar. If the C7Z or ZR1 go out and break it you'll hear of an ACR release soon afterwards and a trip to the Ring shortly after that.

You have to keep in mind that ViperExchange.com was mostly responsible for the last trip NOT SRT.

Why aren't they "real production cars"?

Porsche plans to build more 918's than Dodge built ACR's for the Gen IV model (918 total 918's to be built). They built 100 more ACR's than P1's will be minted (375).

They are hand built, just like the Viper. I am unsure why anyone would say they aren't production cars.

[ViperSmith]

-snip-

Someone at SRT marketing needs to hire McLaren to do their marketing for them. That video is brilliant and is what daydreaming about a car is like. I love the P1, and that video is something I can rewind in my mind at any time now. There was a time when all of us were younger, and we daydreamed about Vipers. SRT marketing has to get that back. Spending the big bucks to run ALMS races doesn't sell cars. People that attend those races are pretty well brand loyal before coughing up a few hundred in tickets to go watch racing. And, that racing isn't something that is viewed by the vast majority of auto enthusiasts. TV commercials placed within shows that capture the target demographic would be more useful, especially if the commercials looked like that McLaren video.

Agree 100%, I would watch that video over and over. The SRT mind/body/soul commercial was good,

SRT needs to put together something like this. Perhaps my all time favorite "car" commercial


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4lKsU7QMUI

[ACR Steve]

Win on Sunday sell on Monday its always been that way. Great marketing just can't compare to winning races in terms of performance car sales..........

ACR's sold out and they hold their value better than any Viper before it except maybe GTS-R. Well why do both of them hold their value the best???????? Because of Racing

We need the Ring when we get our new ACR

[Nine Ball]

Shell/Ferrari commercial is also excellent. Where have all the creative car marketing agencies gone?

[Space Truckin]

Shell/Ferrari commercial is also excellent. Where have all the creative car marketing agencies gone?

Most of them are "developing" ps4 games lol

[rw99]

Shell/Ferrari commercial is also excellent. Where have all the creative car marketing agencies gone?

SRT's done OK in that regard... the George Washington Challenger commercial comes to mind, also the current man/machine Viper ad. Honestly, though, they're missing out on leveraging the ALMS/USCR expenditure: the "right" commercial would blend the race car footage into images of the car that the consumer can purchase. The viewer doesn't need to watch a single minute of televised racing; they don't even need to be race fans. They just need to feel the connection. Market the Viper as a bad boy (like the old chair dance video!), link it to awesome in-race footage, and it works. For me, anyway...

[Chorps]

SRT's done OK in that regard... the George Washington Challenger commercial comes to mind, also the current man/machine Viper ad. Honestly, though, they're missing out on leveraging the ALMS/USCR expenditure: the "right" commercial would blend the race car footage into images of the car that the consumer can purchase. The viewer doesn't need to watch a single minute of televised racing; they don't even need to be race fans. They just need to feel the connection. Market the Viper as a bad boy (like the old chair dance video!), link it to awesome in-race footage, and it works. For me, anyway...

They should hire Vin Diesel to do the voice overs for the SRT ads. He's got the bad boy image and motorhead persona and his voice is very recognizable.

[rw99]

They should hire Vin Diesel to do the voice overs for the SRT ads. He's got the bad boy image and motorhead persona and his voice is very recognizable.

Inspired choice. Hard to understand what the hell he's saying, but the pictures should suffice :D

[Martin]

I think focusing on the 'Ring and investing in hitting a great time there would be a good move. I talk to a lot of people who are 'car guys' and they still have the impression that "the Viper is the last real American muscle car" and they ask "why is it that I see so many YouTube videos where the Viper gets massacred in drag races?". What kind of annoys me is that the car is not a muscle car, and is not designed to be a drag racer - but it's perceived that way time and time again. Getting more credibility on the track could do wonders for the car's desirability in the supercar marketplace. As it stands, there are a lot of people that buy image, and the typical uninformed buyer is not so likely to shell out big dollars for something that they think can't go around corners or stop. The 'Ring is one of the most challenging tracks in the world, and if a car can do a great time there (or hold the record), it gets credibility in the marketplace.

[Newport Viper]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFeBeoAxAY4

[ViperSmith]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqpJvey-7-s

if you haven't seen the George Washington commercial - it is amazing. perhaps the best Dodge commercial ever.

I love the heart and soul commercials, but SRT needs to top the GW commercial

[TrackAire]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqpJvey-7-s

if you haven't seen the George Washington commercial - it is amazing. perhaps the best Dodge commercial ever.

I love the heart and soul commercials, but SRT needs to top the GW commercial

I agree...my favorite car commercial of all time. I have one of the posters of this commercial framed and up in my place of work.

Let freedom rev!!

[XSnake]

They should do a remake of this one.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_d2j82efiQ

[mnc2886]

The Gen V should go to the Ring and here's why. Nissan went to the Ring and ran a 7:08 with a car they even admitted couldn't be purchased from factory in that exact trim. That isn't breaking the record nor is it a legitimate production car lap time considering you can even purchase it that way. Yet look at all the buzz over it. I bet the Gen V ACR could beat it. Hell, it should be right with an ACR-X. That wouldn't be a record either anymore, but they publicity from a run like that would be huge.

[Viper Girl]

George is good, but Viper Lap dance was the best...

[VRYALT3R3D]

SRT needs a commercial like this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbo1iaL0Lco

[Nine Ball]

One of my favorites. I believe it aired on Super Bowl in 2011.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MaUe3bpRRY

[TrackAire]

George is good, but Viper Lap dance was the best...

Although the Lap Dance commercial was epic, a lot of guys have to get the approval from the wife before buying something like the Viper. Buying a car on patriotic terms is a lot easier than comparing it to all the lap dances the Viper will help you get, lol.

Either way, we need some great Viper commercials NOW!!

George

[Viper Girl]

Buying a car on patriotic terms is a lot easier than comparing it to all the lap dances the Viper will help you get, lol.
George, I see your point! Lap dances might not be a good selling point for most women... LOL

[ViperSmith]

You know, with Ralph saying the Gen V ACR will be "radical"

Could it have KERS?

Would be quite radical to the Viper crowd, to say the least...

[slitherv10]

Kers?

[ViperSmith]

Kers?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_energy_recovery_system

Hybrid systems you see in the 918, P1, in a lot of F1 cars now.

Imagine what SRT could do leveraging 100% of 600ft# of torque at 1RPM

It would be radical for the Viper, thats for sure.

[Chorps]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_energy_recovery_system

Hybrid systems you see in the 918, P1, in a lot of F1 cars now.

Imagine what SRT could do leveraging 100% of 600ft# of torque at 1RPM

It would be radical for the Viper, thats for sure.

Packaging of the KERS on the Viper would be interesting...I think optimal KERS/hybrids are rear mid-engined designs.

[slitherv10]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_energy_recovery_system

Hybrid systems you see in the 918, P1, in a lot of F1 cars now.

Imagine what SRT could do leveraging 100% of 600ft# of torque at 1RPM

It would be radical for the Viper, thats for sure.

Interesting read, that for sure. In my opinion though, SRT will never have enough money aside to fulfill such a feat. The image it portrays in my mind though is mind boggling for sure. The Viper with that sort of technology and aspiration would certainly be something to see. Maybe not in my lifetime but, interesting none the less.

[Newport Viper]

http://cars.mclaren.com/files/live/sites/MclarenAutomotive/files/contributed/global/images/latest/East%20meets%20West/Infographic_v4.jpg

[Newport Viper]

http://bridgetogantry.com/