new member owner red viper 2000 germany

[viper2000]

Hey guys! We are owners of a red viper in Germany. Unfortunatelly not happy with the car.
The car dealer here in Germany sold it as "no accident" to us. When the car arrived, there was a big crack in the airbag plastic cover on passenger side.
He said, don't worry, there is nothing wrong with the airbag, it's just a crack in the plastic from the sun! The car has a lot of other cracks, inside and outside.
When he showed us pictures before the purchase, there were no such cracks. He only said, that it is in good condition according to age and great low price because it is sold by an insolvency administrator from Italy, who needs the money fast.
And the little cracks there he will fix within 10 days (incl. in price) and bring the car to our house.
After asking and waiting and asking and waiting for 8 months!!! the cracks are still not repaired. Car is still at car dealers place. Getting worse and worse condition (he parked it outside). He always says, he is ill, he is ill, he will do it, then he is ill again, then promissing repair again, then again ill.

We tried to sell the viper then via internet. One guy interested in buying it, asked us for the VIN number. He checked it and told us, that there is a "Salvage" and a "Rebuilt" title in California!!!
But the cardealer says, no, Carfax is wrong, there were no accident.
We purchased also NMVTIS - also showing salvage and rebuilt title.

We gave the case to lawyer. How can we prove in court, that this is an accident car?? How can we get more information about the titles or the accident in California? (we tried to call Vehicle Department in California - but they only give information to people with us driver licence)
thanks a lot in advance

[viper_eddie]

Sorry to hear about your issues but you should have a car inspected if you don't see it yourself; there are a lot of crooks out there.

As far as I know, the California DMV (Department of Motor Vehicles) does not ask for a US Driver's License when you call or at least they've never asked me. If the CarFax shows the car is salvage that should be enough but it's best to get something from the DMV as well just to have "official" proof.

Also, do you have the title from California? That should say salvage on it.

[ViperGTS]

Italy is involved? Run!!! With the Italien court system you will never get anything.

With the VIN# any Chrysler (Jeep/Fiat?) dealership in Germany may pull the data from the system...

[viper2000]

thanks a lot for your help!
yes, we have also Carfax, and it shows Salvage / Rebuilt title as well. Problem is, that german court maybe does not accept Carfax as an official document.... don't know how about NMVTIS report.... our lawyer is not sure.

We tried to call DMV California and there is a computer voice, you have to choose numbers... and then the voice is asking your driving license number...
And we wrote to DMV.ORG - answer: """This is not information we possess. According to Consumer Reports (regarding vehicle history reports): "If the report isn't recent or you suspect that it has missing or fabricated information, verify it with the service. Some dealer Web sites have free links to reports directly from the services."""

[viper_eddie]

Call this number and play with the menu, I just called them 2 days ago and I got to a human being after a few clicks.

1 (800) 777-0133

If not, try this one:

http://gethuman.com/phone-number/California-Department-of-Motor-Vehicles-DMV-RMV/

[lochnessmonster]

Sorry to hear about your trouble viper2000. I'm a lawyer in Canada, so I can provide you with my "two cents worth". Keep in mind, that may be all my opinion is literally worth, given the fact that you are in Germany, and clearly not in the jurisdiction I practice. Anyway, if this were a case here in Canada, I can tell you what I'd do.

1. The first thing I'd do, in addition to having the Carfax, and taking many, many, pictures of the apparent damage, is take the car to a body shop. The body shop will be able to tell you definitively whether or not the car has been involved in an accident, and exactly what parts have been damaged, or replaced. Assuming they confirm your suspicions, I would then move onto the next step.

2. File a statement of claim in our Provincial Court citing the seller for breach of contract as the cause of action.

3. After service has been effected upon your seller, I would send him what we call a Demand Letter, which essentially outlines the terms of a settlement to avoid the matter going to Court, which will be costly for both of you, but also may bring his reputation into the public eye, which will add an additional cost to him.

4. If he is agreeable, then settle. If he is not go to step 5.

5. I would go to Court armed with my Carfax, pictures, an estimate from the body shop that outlines the total cost to fix all the issues, and indicates that the car has in fact been in an accident. The standard of proof in Civil Court (rather than Criminal Court), is the "balance of probabilities". That is, is it more likely than not that the car was in an accident. NOT can you prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the car was in an accident. The standard of proof is much lower in Civil Court (remember OJ Simpson? Acquitted in Criminal Court, but convicted in Civil Court on the same set of facts. This is precisely why.). Armed with the Carfax, pictures, and bodyshop estimate, plus testimony from a body shop manager/employee, I don't think you would have a hard time proving that the car was "more likely than not" in an accident. And, that the seller has not lived up to his end of the bargain.

You will have to ask the judge for a remedy. That is, what you want him/her to order. You have the choice in this case of asking for what is called "specific performance", which will force the seller to repair all of the damage your body shop has identified. Or you can simply ask for an order that cites the seller for a material breach of contract, due either to his failure to fix the damage, or the misrepresentation of the car from the outset, and the ask that the remedy be the forfeiture of the purchase price back to you.

Again, this is how I would proceed in a Canadian Court of Law. This advice may not be applicable in your jurisdiction due to differences in the "standard of proof" and procedure. Your lawyer, quite honestly, should be asking for body shop estimates etc., and filing documents for you. Your reference to an "official document" to me seems odd. The document is as "official" as the judge determines it is. It goes to weight, not admissibility.

Good luck with it.

[viper2000]

@lochnessmonster: thank you very much for your attention to our case and your reply!
our problem is, the cardealer is someone who we have trusted in... a long time.... and we don't have a contract for the purchase. only a bill, price includes new MOT certificate. i know, dumb

well, our lawyer said now, there is nothing to do without purchase contract.
we will pick up the car probably soon (still without MOT) and loose a lot of money.
that's life. never trust no one. there are a lot of people pretending to be your friends, but they will try to make money of you, if they get the chance.

[lochnessmonster]

Hey Viper 2000,

To be clear, a contract can be both "verbal" and "written". While verbal contracts are often referred to as "not being worth the paper they are written on", they are still a binding contract. The essential elements of a contract are as follows: offer, acceptance, and consideration. The offer is, "I want to buy the car for this price", the acceptance is "I accept your offer, and will sell it to you in accordance with your conditions", the consideration is the money that exchanges hands to "consummate" the transaction. In the immortal words of Lord Denning, it can be as small as a "pepper corn".

The bottom line is, you had a verbal contract, and the Court, if it so choses, can both recognize that contract, and affirm what are called "implied terms" of the contract. For example, the Court can imply the term that the vehicle be sold without prior damage, if you aren't able to "prove" that was part of the agreement. You are also able to prove the "consideration" with the bill of sale.

I am providing you advise based on what is known as "The Common Law", which originated in England, and forms the basis of law in Canada, the United States, Australia, and other Western countries. I am not certain that the same laws that apply to the formation of contracts apply in Germany, but I would highly suggest you find another lawyer who will provide you with a second opinion. If you were in Canada, you would have a very strong argument for breach of contract.

[viper2000]

@lochnessmonster:
Thank you for this information!

Another question:
the car dealer wrote on the bill, that this Viper is a "Limited Edition Daytona". What does "limited edition daytona" include? How can we check, that this car really is a Daytona?

[Fatboy 18]

@lochnessmonster:
Thank you for this information!

Another question:
the car dealer wrote on the bill, that this Viper is a "Limited Edition Daytona". What does "limited edition daytona" include? How can we check, that this car really is a Daytona?

Do you have any pictures of the car? If so post them up.
The only Daytona cars are the Woodhouse / Autoform cars (9 IN TOTAL) The Vipers started off stock from Dodge then the cars went to Autoform where all the modifications were added prior to being sold. A Le mans Rear wing, different front end were added an extra central louver grille was fitted in the hood
Car should be Red with white stripes, there should also be a small plaque near the cigarette lighter on the centre console with the production number.
Cars also came with BBS Wheels.

Here is a pic of a Woodhouse /Autoform Daytona car.
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5588/15053834798_64841dd93a_b.jpg

One also for sale here (but note the wheels are not the correct BBS ones)
http://driveviper.com/classifieds/gen-ii/p985-2002-final-edition-autoform-daytona-1-2f9-produced-2c-very-rare.html

I would also check the Day, Month, Year build sticker on the drivers door.
Information here.
http://www.theviperregistry.org/mdh.php

Breakdown of Vin Number here
http://www.theviperregistry.org/vin.php

How did you pay for the car? If you used a Credit card for a deposit you can put the purchase into dispute.

I had to do this when a bad dealer in the UK Tried to sell me a repaired Salvage car. (a Black 99 GTS with silver stripes).

I got the Police involved too ;)

I finally got all my monies back.

So who is the Dealer? Sounds like someone to avoid!

[viper2000]

1173811739

[viper2000]

@Fatboy18: thanks a lot!
the viper we got doesn't look at all like the one you posted :(

- - - Updated - - -

11742

[Fatboy 18]

1173811739

Sorry to say that is an RT/10. There were no "Daytona Editions" for that model of car!

Your car has the 5 Spoke factory wheels which look like they have been sprayed or powder coated black. Car looks lowered in those pics too? (may have different suspension or spring lowering caps)?

Connolly leather interior too.

There should be badges on the side of the front hood saying Viper RT/10, those have been removed. Dodge raised letter badging missing from rear bumper.

Car looks nice but but the limited edition stuff is bullshit. :(

[Fatboy 18]

OK, there are some other ways to look at all of this,

No 1, Do you like the car?
No 2, You mentioned you got the car at a good price? Good price for a Salvage / Rebuilt car? You need to find out just how bad the repairs needed were.

Don't sweat on the badges, many people remove them (they are only stuck on).

Do you have pictures of the damage and cracks?

Parts can be bought from Salvage yards in USA or Vendors on here to bring the car up to the standard you would like :)

[viper2000]

we paid last year for the car, the money was transferred from our bank account to his account. no way to get it back easily.

we never got the car because he said, he will repair some things.
waited 8 months for this repair, he never repaired.
the car is still at car dealers place.
we tried to sell meanwhile on the internet.
someone asked for the VIN and told us then, that this is a salvage car.
the dealer saying no, Carfax has wrong information, there was no accident.

we don't like the car :( and want our money back.
we paid 31.000

because we trusted the car dealer a lot, we don't have a purchase contract. only bill.
police doing nothing so far about this case.
lawyer is not sure how to win process/court without written contract.

should the bill not be enough?

[Fatboy 18]

Ouch!

The price you paid is a little high, I would expect to pay that price after all repairs were completed.

[Fatboy 18]

I think you need to get the car inspected by a certified assessor.

I would also post this in the Regional section here

http://driveviper.com/forums/forums/26-European-Regions

[viper2000]

@viper_eddie:
thanks! I called the numbers and spoke to a woman from DMV CA.
She showed me, which contact form i have to fill in and sent to DMV to get more information on damage.

[viper2000]

hey guys,

I got answer from Steve Dreyer! who built the Daytona Vipers :)
and he said, they built 10 of them.

and his answer regarding our viper:
"Unfortunately this is not the car as described on the bill…you have a GenII RT10 (1997-2002)…not a Limited Edition Daytona…(which were all Coupes)…nor is it a SRT 10…they were first built in 2003.
Sorry to see this kind of thing happen."

[Fatboy 18]

Yes....As I said, Dealer Bullshit!

[AZTVR]

@lochnessmonster:
Thank you for this information!

Another question:
the car dealer wrote on the bill, that this Viper is a "Limited Edition Daytona". What does "limited edition daytona" include? How can we check, that this car really is a Daytona?


hey guys,

I got answer from Steve Dreyer! who built the Daytona Vipers :)
and he said, they built 10 of them.

and his answer regarding our viper:
"Unfortunately this is not the car as described on the bill…you have a GenII RT10 (1997-2002)…not a Limited Edition Daytona…(which were all Coupes)…nor is it a SRT 10…they were first built in 2003.
Sorry to see this kind of thing happen."

Perhaps your lawyer can use this to claim that the dealer has tried to present you with a different car than you purchased. If the California DMV does confirm that the car is salvage, then perhaps the dealer is correct. The car that you purchased as not salvaged and was a Daytona edition as he claimed; therefore, the car he is trying to give you is not the car he said that he sold you.

[viper2000]

hi, yes!

The bill shows:
Dodge Viper SRT10
"Limited Edition Daytona"
Canada Model
VIN xxx
year built 2000
New german MOT

AutoForm told me that this is not Daytona nor SRT10.
Woodhouse told me that this is also not a Canada Model but from USA.

Only bullshit on that bill! :furious:

[Fatboy 18]

Clearly the dealer has no idea what they are talking about!

You said you have a bill of sale,
Who has the registration documents for the car? You or the Dealer?

[viper2000]

What is ASR and ESP?

okay, i found out, ASR is a german word. Traction Control System.

[viper2000]

July 2014 we bought and paid for the car.
waited for the repairs he promised on the car.
January 2015 we got the papers.
Then waited again for the repairs.
Then found out, that this is damage on Carfax.
June 2015 went to laywer and police.
Car is still at his place. Still nothing repaired. (but we don't want repairs now, because we don't want a damaged car)
We have the papers.
want money back or get the SRT10 Daytona Version :D as stated on bill

[Fatboy 18]

What is the car registered as on the official paperwork?

IE : Make?
Model?
Year ?

Is the VIN number on the Registration document the same as the one on the car?

[Fatboy 18]

What is ASR and ESP?

okay, i found out, ASR is a german word. Traction Control System.

http://www.car-engineer.com/esp-electronic-stability-program/

If your car is a 2000 Model it will not have ABS (Anti Lock Braking) and Gen II Vipers do not have Traction control! (apart from drivers right foot) :D

Your Vin number should read 1B3ER65EYV Then a Six digit number

[Fatboy 18]

Resurrecting an old thread, wondering if this ever got resolved? Anyone Know?