dave6666
06-02-2015, 03:56 PM
Posted this at another forum. I know that site freaks people out but this is a popular topic over there these days. So here. Have your own copy. You are welcome.
First off, thanks to GTS Dean for years ago, making statement of the general steps in this process. It is what I have based this on, albeit orders of magnitude more detail.
So, in this thread is…
* How I aligned my fascia to the hood.
* What modifications I did to the car to prevent reoccurrence of misalignment.
Sadly though, there is no step by step one tutorial fits all way to write this. So I’m going to show you what all the alignment planes (or views are), combined with how to change things and just as importantly, make it stay that way.
This process can be frustrating and time consuming. Frustrating because there will be plenty of trial and error as you fit, check, refit, recheck and so on. Time consuming is built in therefore. I spent 3 weeks on my car. The results were fantastic, and have so far not crept after over a year of driving. The problems that I were trying to fix happened within 6 months or so after some replacement panels were done. I won’t blame the shop that did the work mind you, just trying to point out how fast it went bad, and how well a good repair can hold.
To emphasize here, this is how to do it right, so that all views are correct, and they will stay put. There will be plenty of people brag that they did the same thing in just 5 minutes and it looks great. Good for you. Bring me your car and let me review it.
IT IS ASSUMED FOR THIS FASCIA ALIGNMENT THAT THE HOOD IS PROPERLY ALIGNED TO THE CAR. THAT YOU ARE ONLY CORRECTING THE FIT OF THE FASCIA TO THE HOOD. IF YOU HAVE HOOD FITMENT ISSUES THEY SHOULD BE CORRECTED FIRST.
There are 9 alignment items that I adjusted. Or at least made sure they didn’t get jacked while aligning something else. That is how a lot of this works; fix one thing and 3 others go whacko.
This picture shows 3 of them.
1) The proverbial “hood gap”
2) Parallelism of the surfaces of the gap to each other
3) The arc of the hood lining up with the arc of the fascia in the wheel opening
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff224/dave6666waybad/a005.jpg (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/dave6666waybad/media/a005.jpg.html)
Looking down at that same area, several things can be wrong. Either the hood or the fascia can stick out farther than the other, or the curvature of one versus the other does not match. Alignment item 4…
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff224/dave6666waybad/a006.jpg (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/dave6666waybad/media/a006.jpg.html)
Alignment item 5, the transition from the hood to the fascia along the front. If one sticks up higher than the other it looks retarded.
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff224/dave6666waybad/a007.jpg (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/dave6666waybad/media/a007.jpg.html)
Alignment item 6. The gap above the headlights. It’s part of the aero design of the car, but that doesn’t stop some people from shimming it out. If you do leave it, you will want it to be even side to side.
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff224/dave6666waybad/a010.jpg (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/dave6666waybad/media/a010.jpg.html)
Next, the gap from the headlight to the fascia, right in front of the headlight. Looks tacky when you can see down in there. Alignment item 7:
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff224/dave6666waybad/a008.jpg (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/dave6666waybad/media/a008.jpg.html)
The last two alignment points. The tip of the hood where it transfers to the fascia at the headlight, as well as if it is touching the headlight, and then the gap between the hood and fascia as it arcs along the entire front of the car between the headlights. Please note that in this picture I have but one of the 11 fasteners in along the top/front of the fascia. It would normally be a tighter fit, the gap along the front.
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff224/dave6666waybad/a012.jpg (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/dave6666waybad/media/a012.jpg.html)
So that’s the list of what can look good or bad. Some things you have more control over than others. But the next step is to study your car and make sure you completely understand what it is you want to align. Might not hurt to write it down and stick it on the wall too.
I also took some measurements from the floor up to the car in a few places. Like at the “gap” area right in front of the wheels. Write it down and keep it as a reference. Stick it on the wall.
- - - Updated - - -
I mention at the beginning of this thread that showing you how to make these adjustments stay put is part of what I’m doing here. To explain that further…
There are two reasons short of direct physical damage, that in my opinion, the fit of the fascia to the hood changes over time. First off is sag. The entire front assembly is plastic. Which over the years, could deform slightly and droop to the outer extremes. Like where the “hood gap” is.
Secondly, is that all of the factory attachment points of the core support to the steel chassis, are just sheet metal screws. Granted, big ones, but how about some bolt threads and bolts?
So, I will point out shimming the core support, and converting to threads and bolts where possible / practical. If your factory screws are not stripped or otherwise to your dissatisfaction, then ignore those conversions to bolts as I go along here.
I said early on here I can’t give an exact procedure for your car because I can’t see your car to tell what it needs. But I can state there are 2 basic steps to the biggest item, the core support.
And those 2 basic steps are:
1) Shim, position and anchor the core support correctly to the frame, independent of the braces and brackets that supplement the core support.
2) Use the sets of braces to hold the core support but not position it.
Can the braces tweak the position of the core support? Yes, they should not however be used to fix gross alignment issues.
Since some owners may not have ever seen the front all apart, here are a few good pics of what the front looks like.
This picture is with the core support removed, sitting in front of the car. You will not have to go this far at all unless you determine after failing to align the core support by shimming etc, that your frame is bent. Then you’ll need to strip it down to straighten the frame.
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff224/dave6666waybad/fat/Picture%20220.jpg (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/dave6666waybad/media/fat/Picture%20220.jpg.html)
This picture is when I was working on my car. The nose and rebar off. Also note the piece of 3” angle iron laying underneath the car across the front. Since the car was not perfectly level sitting on stands I shimmed the steel angle to match the car so I could take reference measurements from the car to the ground. In summary, this pic is more representative of the level of disassembly to align things.
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff224/dave6666waybad/025.jpg (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/dave6666waybad/media/025.jpg.html)
Shimming and anchoring the core support to the frame.
Once again, it is assumed you have studied the car and by now realize what it is that needs aligning.
You close the gap at the wheel wells by shimming the core support up at the lower frame horns. This will not affect the fit along the front edge of the hood. That is done with, or at, the rebar.
You anchor the core support to the frame with 2 screws (or bolts) on each side. These are installed at the factory, but you will need to adjust or maybe modify them.
There can also be shims between the frame and the core support where the 2 factory screws are on each side. Those shims can by there for several reasons. To simply fill the gap, to move the core support to one side or the other, or to spread it a bit and make it wider on both sides. That would affect the view as looking DOWN on the hood gap area.
Here is the location of the shims from the core support to the lower frame horns.
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff224/dave6666waybad/001_4.jpg (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/dave6666waybad/media/001_4.jpg.html)
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff224/dave6666waybad/002.jpg (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/dave6666waybad/media/002.jpg.html)
And here is a shim removed. Please excuse the melted look on one end…
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff224/dave6666waybad/003.jpg (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/dave6666waybad/media/003.jpg.html)
So. To get the shims in and out, and then add or subtract them. Am I ready to go as soon as I pull the nose off? NO! The following parts / items must be undone first. (pics of them as this thread progresses…)
1) Core support braces to frame inside wheel well. (trace location with pencil first)
2) Core support struts to frame below headlights. (trace location with pencil first)
3) Screws on each side of core support going in to the side of the upper frame rails. (trace location with pencil first if you can reach them)
With those items undone or loosened, here is a picture of my jack placement when lifting the core support to access the shims.
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff224/dave6666waybad/009_2.jpg (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/dave6666waybad/media/009_2.jpg.html)
While lifting it watch for one, that it is actually going up, and two, that if not, it isn’t binding up on the attachment screws to the frame. You may run out of travel in the holes. I did on my car, so I had to completely remove the screws on one side to get the shims in and out.
Here is the gap you should end up with to get the shims in and out:
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff224/dave6666waybad/004.jpg (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/dave6666waybad/media/004.jpg.html)
The slotted holes in the shims are to pass around the rubber mounts on the bottom of the a/c condenser and the radiator. You might check alignment of those if you are so inclined; that those rubber mounts are actually in the holes in the core support.
Here’s looking down at the hole the radiator foot sits into, with the radiator pulled back and the a/c condenser in front of it.
If the radiator or a/c condenser are jacked up and not setting down correctly, this is probably the problem area.
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff224/dave6666waybad/006_3.jpg (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/dave6666waybad/media/006_3.jpg.html)
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff224/dave6666waybad/007_2.jpg (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/dave6666waybad/media/007_2.jpg.html)
The core support shims are available from Mopar. At least they are listed in the catalog. I made my own from nylon sheet from McMaster Carr.
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff224/dave6666waybad/005.jpg (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/dave6666waybad/media/005.jpg.html)
So how do you determine the correct amount of shims? Well, did you take measurements before you tore it apart like I suggested? And then there’s the constant *reinstall the nose and check my progress* step. Followed by the *repeat or adjust* step. As you add or subtract shims.
- - - Updated - - -
Now to look at the braces, struts and screws that hold / help hold the position of the core support to the frame.
I mentioned there are 2 screws per side that directly attach the core support to the sides of the upper frame rails. On my ’01 ABS car, the 2 on the drivers side are crammed in behind the ABS module. A little tricky to get to. On the passenger side, easy access, and those were the 2 on my car that were way off from the hole when the shimming was done.
You can see the holes in the plastic core support. You can see there’s a shim wedged in there and it is clear of the holes. But the holes in the steel frame are not visible.
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff224/dave6666waybad/014_1.jpg (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/dave6666waybad/media/014_1.jpg.html)
I had shimmed the core support up, so the holes in the frame must be down then. A 1/2” drum sander on my Dremel and there they are.
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff224/dave6666waybad/015_1.jpg (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/dave6666waybad/media/015_1.jpg.html)
I installed 1/4-20 rivet nuts in the passenger side. I would have done the drivers side too but those screws still matched hole to hole, coupled with I really didn’t want to remove my ABS module to access them.
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff224/dave6666waybad/016.jpg (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/dave6666waybad/media/016.jpg.html)
1/4-20 body bolts.
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff224/dave6666waybad/018.jpg (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/dave6666waybad/media/018.jpg.html)
Before moving on from the topic of getting the core support set to the frame, a few words about the shims where the core support is anchored to the frame. And any adjustment front to back in the slotted holes.
The shims between the core support and the frame can be to simply fill a gap, but not move the parts in relation to each other. If however you tighten the screws and the parts move and you don’t want them to, you may need a shim there.
If the fascia pokes out on one side remove a shim. If it is in too far install a shim. And of course, all the while test fitting the nose as you go.
The fact the holes in the core support are slotted will allow for a slight amount of movement fore to aft. This can address how the arc of the wheel well looks from the side, hood to fascia. There are other adjustments for that too, but just be aware as you tighten those 4 bolts - 2 per side - that there are multiple axis at work.
First off, thanks to GTS Dean for years ago, making statement of the general steps in this process. It is what I have based this on, albeit orders of magnitude more detail.
So, in this thread is…
* How I aligned my fascia to the hood.
* What modifications I did to the car to prevent reoccurrence of misalignment.
Sadly though, there is no step by step one tutorial fits all way to write this. So I’m going to show you what all the alignment planes (or views are), combined with how to change things and just as importantly, make it stay that way.
This process can be frustrating and time consuming. Frustrating because there will be plenty of trial and error as you fit, check, refit, recheck and so on. Time consuming is built in therefore. I spent 3 weeks on my car. The results were fantastic, and have so far not crept after over a year of driving. The problems that I were trying to fix happened within 6 months or so after some replacement panels were done. I won’t blame the shop that did the work mind you, just trying to point out how fast it went bad, and how well a good repair can hold.
To emphasize here, this is how to do it right, so that all views are correct, and they will stay put. There will be plenty of people brag that they did the same thing in just 5 minutes and it looks great. Good for you. Bring me your car and let me review it.
IT IS ASSUMED FOR THIS FASCIA ALIGNMENT THAT THE HOOD IS PROPERLY ALIGNED TO THE CAR. THAT YOU ARE ONLY CORRECTING THE FIT OF THE FASCIA TO THE HOOD. IF YOU HAVE HOOD FITMENT ISSUES THEY SHOULD BE CORRECTED FIRST.
There are 9 alignment items that I adjusted. Or at least made sure they didn’t get jacked while aligning something else. That is how a lot of this works; fix one thing and 3 others go whacko.
This picture shows 3 of them.
1) The proverbial “hood gap”
2) Parallelism of the surfaces of the gap to each other
3) The arc of the hood lining up with the arc of the fascia in the wheel opening
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff224/dave6666waybad/a005.jpg (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/dave6666waybad/media/a005.jpg.html)
Looking down at that same area, several things can be wrong. Either the hood or the fascia can stick out farther than the other, or the curvature of one versus the other does not match. Alignment item 4…
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff224/dave6666waybad/a006.jpg (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/dave6666waybad/media/a006.jpg.html)
Alignment item 5, the transition from the hood to the fascia along the front. If one sticks up higher than the other it looks retarded.
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff224/dave6666waybad/a007.jpg (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/dave6666waybad/media/a007.jpg.html)
Alignment item 6. The gap above the headlights. It’s part of the aero design of the car, but that doesn’t stop some people from shimming it out. If you do leave it, you will want it to be even side to side.
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff224/dave6666waybad/a010.jpg (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/dave6666waybad/media/a010.jpg.html)
Next, the gap from the headlight to the fascia, right in front of the headlight. Looks tacky when you can see down in there. Alignment item 7:
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff224/dave6666waybad/a008.jpg (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/dave6666waybad/media/a008.jpg.html)
The last two alignment points. The tip of the hood where it transfers to the fascia at the headlight, as well as if it is touching the headlight, and then the gap between the hood and fascia as it arcs along the entire front of the car between the headlights. Please note that in this picture I have but one of the 11 fasteners in along the top/front of the fascia. It would normally be a tighter fit, the gap along the front.
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff224/dave6666waybad/a012.jpg (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/dave6666waybad/media/a012.jpg.html)
So that’s the list of what can look good or bad. Some things you have more control over than others. But the next step is to study your car and make sure you completely understand what it is you want to align. Might not hurt to write it down and stick it on the wall too.
I also took some measurements from the floor up to the car in a few places. Like at the “gap” area right in front of the wheels. Write it down and keep it as a reference. Stick it on the wall.
- - - Updated - - -
I mention at the beginning of this thread that showing you how to make these adjustments stay put is part of what I’m doing here. To explain that further…
There are two reasons short of direct physical damage, that in my opinion, the fit of the fascia to the hood changes over time. First off is sag. The entire front assembly is plastic. Which over the years, could deform slightly and droop to the outer extremes. Like where the “hood gap” is.
Secondly, is that all of the factory attachment points of the core support to the steel chassis, are just sheet metal screws. Granted, big ones, but how about some bolt threads and bolts?
So, I will point out shimming the core support, and converting to threads and bolts where possible / practical. If your factory screws are not stripped or otherwise to your dissatisfaction, then ignore those conversions to bolts as I go along here.
I said early on here I can’t give an exact procedure for your car because I can’t see your car to tell what it needs. But I can state there are 2 basic steps to the biggest item, the core support.
And those 2 basic steps are:
1) Shim, position and anchor the core support correctly to the frame, independent of the braces and brackets that supplement the core support.
2) Use the sets of braces to hold the core support but not position it.
Can the braces tweak the position of the core support? Yes, they should not however be used to fix gross alignment issues.
Since some owners may not have ever seen the front all apart, here are a few good pics of what the front looks like.
This picture is with the core support removed, sitting in front of the car. You will not have to go this far at all unless you determine after failing to align the core support by shimming etc, that your frame is bent. Then you’ll need to strip it down to straighten the frame.
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff224/dave6666waybad/fat/Picture%20220.jpg (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/dave6666waybad/media/fat/Picture%20220.jpg.html)
This picture is when I was working on my car. The nose and rebar off. Also note the piece of 3” angle iron laying underneath the car across the front. Since the car was not perfectly level sitting on stands I shimmed the steel angle to match the car so I could take reference measurements from the car to the ground. In summary, this pic is more representative of the level of disassembly to align things.
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff224/dave6666waybad/025.jpg (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/dave6666waybad/media/025.jpg.html)
Shimming and anchoring the core support to the frame.
Once again, it is assumed you have studied the car and by now realize what it is that needs aligning.
You close the gap at the wheel wells by shimming the core support up at the lower frame horns. This will not affect the fit along the front edge of the hood. That is done with, or at, the rebar.
You anchor the core support to the frame with 2 screws (or bolts) on each side. These are installed at the factory, but you will need to adjust or maybe modify them.
There can also be shims between the frame and the core support where the 2 factory screws are on each side. Those shims can by there for several reasons. To simply fill the gap, to move the core support to one side or the other, or to spread it a bit and make it wider on both sides. That would affect the view as looking DOWN on the hood gap area.
Here is the location of the shims from the core support to the lower frame horns.
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff224/dave6666waybad/001_4.jpg (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/dave6666waybad/media/001_4.jpg.html)
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff224/dave6666waybad/002.jpg (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/dave6666waybad/media/002.jpg.html)
And here is a shim removed. Please excuse the melted look on one end…
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff224/dave6666waybad/003.jpg (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/dave6666waybad/media/003.jpg.html)
So. To get the shims in and out, and then add or subtract them. Am I ready to go as soon as I pull the nose off? NO! The following parts / items must be undone first. (pics of them as this thread progresses…)
1) Core support braces to frame inside wheel well. (trace location with pencil first)
2) Core support struts to frame below headlights. (trace location with pencil first)
3) Screws on each side of core support going in to the side of the upper frame rails. (trace location with pencil first if you can reach them)
With those items undone or loosened, here is a picture of my jack placement when lifting the core support to access the shims.
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff224/dave6666waybad/009_2.jpg (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/dave6666waybad/media/009_2.jpg.html)
While lifting it watch for one, that it is actually going up, and two, that if not, it isn’t binding up on the attachment screws to the frame. You may run out of travel in the holes. I did on my car, so I had to completely remove the screws on one side to get the shims in and out.
Here is the gap you should end up with to get the shims in and out:
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff224/dave6666waybad/004.jpg (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/dave6666waybad/media/004.jpg.html)
The slotted holes in the shims are to pass around the rubber mounts on the bottom of the a/c condenser and the radiator. You might check alignment of those if you are so inclined; that those rubber mounts are actually in the holes in the core support.
Here’s looking down at the hole the radiator foot sits into, with the radiator pulled back and the a/c condenser in front of it.
If the radiator or a/c condenser are jacked up and not setting down correctly, this is probably the problem area.
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff224/dave6666waybad/006_3.jpg (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/dave6666waybad/media/006_3.jpg.html)
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff224/dave6666waybad/007_2.jpg (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/dave6666waybad/media/007_2.jpg.html)
The core support shims are available from Mopar. At least they are listed in the catalog. I made my own from nylon sheet from McMaster Carr.
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff224/dave6666waybad/005.jpg (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/dave6666waybad/media/005.jpg.html)
So how do you determine the correct amount of shims? Well, did you take measurements before you tore it apart like I suggested? And then there’s the constant *reinstall the nose and check my progress* step. Followed by the *repeat or adjust* step. As you add or subtract shims.
- - - Updated - - -
Now to look at the braces, struts and screws that hold / help hold the position of the core support to the frame.
I mentioned there are 2 screws per side that directly attach the core support to the sides of the upper frame rails. On my ’01 ABS car, the 2 on the drivers side are crammed in behind the ABS module. A little tricky to get to. On the passenger side, easy access, and those were the 2 on my car that were way off from the hole when the shimming was done.
You can see the holes in the plastic core support. You can see there’s a shim wedged in there and it is clear of the holes. But the holes in the steel frame are not visible.
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff224/dave6666waybad/014_1.jpg (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/dave6666waybad/media/014_1.jpg.html)
I had shimmed the core support up, so the holes in the frame must be down then. A 1/2” drum sander on my Dremel and there they are.
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff224/dave6666waybad/015_1.jpg (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/dave6666waybad/media/015_1.jpg.html)
I installed 1/4-20 rivet nuts in the passenger side. I would have done the drivers side too but those screws still matched hole to hole, coupled with I really didn’t want to remove my ABS module to access them.
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff224/dave6666waybad/016.jpg (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/dave6666waybad/media/016.jpg.html)
1/4-20 body bolts.
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff224/dave6666waybad/018.jpg (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/dave6666waybad/media/018.jpg.html)
Before moving on from the topic of getting the core support set to the frame, a few words about the shims where the core support is anchored to the frame. And any adjustment front to back in the slotted holes.
The shims between the core support and the frame can be to simply fill a gap, but not move the parts in relation to each other. If however you tighten the screws and the parts move and you don’t want them to, you may need a shim there.
If the fascia pokes out on one side remove a shim. If it is in too far install a shim. And of course, all the while test fitting the nose as you go.
The fact the holes in the core support are slotted will allow for a slight amount of movement fore to aft. This can address how the arc of the wheel well looks from the side, hood to fascia. There are other adjustments for that too, but just be aware as you tighten those 4 bolts - 2 per side - that there are multiple axis at work.