When will the Viper get a power increase?

[HANKFAN]

Any guesses on when the Viper will see a power increase? I was kind of shocked when the 2016 models didn't receive a power increase to close the gap from the Hellcat. It's hard for me to think that Dodge can let the Hellcat continue to be the horsepower king over the Halo car. I have heard a rumor that Dodge was developing a 10L engine to get over 700hp N/A but I am not sure if there is any truth to that rumor.

[Martin]

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the direct injection engine becomes reality soon. I was also thinking it could happen for the 2016 year, but now I'm thinking it'll be a sales-pusher for later. If they want to squeeze more power out of the engine without going afoul of the EPA rules, they'll need to ditch the port injected engine and go direct injection. It's a bit more costly, but the technology is tested and works just fine. With direct injection, they have a lot more wiggle room on gaining power without increasing emissions.

[ACR Steve]

Lol 645hp not enough?

[dasvolk]

I can't be the only person who doesn't think this car needs more power, at least at sea level.

[ViperSmith]

You'll never see a 10L V10. Ever.

The days of big displacement are coming to an end, they won't invest in a larger V10. Smaller I could see.

[Voice of Reason]

Direct injection would require a completely new head design. This seems unlikely for such a small volume V10 engine but I guess they've been able to justify the expenses in the past, like our unique cam in cam design, so who knows? Are any FCA engines DI?

[MBG2.0]

They could tweak the current car with better intake and exhaust...but that maybe would yield only a few extra hp.
But the cars also lacking a auto gearbox...

[shine]

Unlikely to get a power increase with the current engine. It's already a retooled Gen IV engine that they managed to eke out that extra 45 HP while keeping cats and emissions legal and maintaining reliability and longevity. Dick Winkles and his team did a phenomenal job to get it to where it is.

[AM.MSCL]

Arrow Performance is working on the 9.0L V10

[Schen]

Well I can tell you Dodge doesn't not see things the way you do. The Viper is still very much the halo car of the brand and they don't view the Hellcat as being better than it. 645HP in a Viper is alot more than 707HP in a Challenger. Hence the introduction of the ACR.

--RS

[ViperSmith]

Well I can tell you Dodge doesn't not see things the way you do. The Viper is still very much the halo car of the brand and they don't view the Hellcat as being better than it. 645HP in a Viper is alot more than 707HP in a Challenger. Hence the introduction of the ACR.

--RS

The Viper is faster and does everything better than any hellcat.

The only thing the hellcat does better is haul 2+ people.

[V10powerr]

Op I agree with you it needs more power
I am a viper lover so I bought a gen v anyway but most of my friends that have lambos r8 Ferrari Porsche have mentioned that even though my viper is faster or as fast as their cars, the viper has always been know to be much faster. Out of 6 friends with these cars only 1 goes to the track.
If dodge wants its halo cars in the hands of non viper owners it has to do something like what the gen 1 and 2 did, own bragging rights.
At the current rate it will continue to do what is has done in the past, expect the same results.
This is my experience and opinion based on this small group as well as my thoughts.
Not meant to upset anybody.
1 of 1 is not going to increase sales of get the viper the respect it once had or make it a halo car for the sports car industry that it used to be, now it's not even the halo car for dodge
Worst part is they have the recipe to sell, look at the hellcats. That car has bragging rights. My buddies with a ctsv, e63 and cls63 are scared Of that car, the viper was once that legend.

[Viktimize]

Lap records all over the place isn't enough bragging rights for people?

More power was the last thing I thought this car needed when I took it out first few times. But I got used to it fast and would love to get over 700rwhp now.

[Thawk97]

The availability of super/hyper cars today is not the same as it was in 1992. The world today is a lot smaller than it was back then. We are instantly aware of the newest and latest super cars even from tiny shops or with tiny production numbers. Making a splash in that environment takes a much bigger stone than it used to. I don't think there's any way the Viper can reproduce that kind of impact - there are just already too many options at too many price points. It will never be in hyper car territory - simple economics prevent it (can't get $1million performance for 1/10th the cost).

I don't think that's a problem, but I do think people who talk about "recapturing" the "glory days" don't really even understand what they mean. Even at 800 hp, this car still wouldn't get the respect the originals did. The original was unlike anything being sold (much less made) in America. The newly introduced Ford GT would already steal spotlights and garner comparison not to mention the plethora of foreign supercars which are way more common now. Even the P1 has the 918 to fight against - frankly speaking the only car that costs less than a cool million in recent memory to gain the kind of excitement the Viper had (albeit for different reasons) is the Tesla. And that has nothing to do with power - it's simply considered new and revolutionary.

The Viper can never be new. It was new in '92. That's ok.

The Viper stands on it's own today and the list of things I'd rather own is preciously short.

[99RT10]

Lol 645hp not enough?

No................

[TheAnonymousOne]

The availability of super/hyper cars today is not the same as it was in 1992. The world today is a lot smaller than it was back then. We are instantly aware of the newest and latest super cars even from tiny shops or with tiny production numbers. Making a splash in that environment takes a much bigger stone than it used to. I don't think there's any way the Viper can reproduce that kind of impact - there are just already too many options at too many price points. It will never be in hyper car territory - simple economics prevent it (can't get $1million performance for 1/10th the cost).

I don't think that's a problem, but I do think people who talk about "recapturing" the "glory days" don't really even understand what they mean. Even at 800 hp, this car still wouldn't get the respect the originals did. The original was unlike anything being sold (much less made) in America. The newly introduced Ford GT would already steal spotlights and garner comparison not to mention the plethora of foreign supercars which are way more common now. Even the P1 has the 918 to fight against - frankly speaking the only car that costs less than a cool million in recent memory to gain the kind of excitement the Viper had (albeit for different reasons) is the Tesla. And that has nothing to do with power - it's simply considered revolutionary.

The Viper stands on it's own and the list of things I'd rather own is preciously short.

The Viper is neither supercar nor hypercar. A "Supercar" was a $450k+ car back in 1992. In the late 90s a Supercar cost $1mm plus. The term "hypercar" only applies to supercars with hybrid tech, and even then it's a childish name. Supercar territory starts in the $800ks. It's wishful thinking and preposterous to call the Viper a Supercar, or a Gallardo, or an F12, or an Aventador. Those are all "exotics". The Viper is an "Exotic Sports Car". It just irks me when media sensationalizes a word and then the general populous goes overboard with it. It's like telling people your cute girlfriend who was featured on an Instagram model page is a "super model". Wrong.

Now on to the Viper. There are mixed opinions but the truth is crystal clear. The Viper is a beast. With 800NA HP it will more than likely give the Ferrari supercars a run for their money. FIAT will not allow that. Remember a little BMW called the M1? They discontinued it because it was outperforming the M3. Porsche has also made it public that they generally will not allow cheaper cars to outperform their flagships. The Viper is being held back and will continue to be held back. Fortunately they green lighted the ACR. Now maybe we'll see a Ring time eclipsing the La Ferrari but I highly doubt it.

[ACR Steve]

Everyone is so focused on HP numbers. They are meaningless. Its all power to weight and how the power is transferred to the pavement. (I have raced in 170hp open wheel cars that would kick a Vipers butt)
Hell my race car is 355hp to the wheels/ 2,900lbs and will destroy my ACR on the track

Its all about a complete package: Power to weight, chassis set up, suspension, brakes

[Thawk97]

The Viper is neither supercar nor hypercar. A "Supercar" was a $450k+ car back in 1992. In the late 90s a Supercar cost $1mm plus. The term "hypercar" only applies to supercars with hybrid tech, and even then it's a childish name. Supercar territory starts in the $800ks. It's wishful thinking and preposterous to call the Viper a Supercar, or a Gallardo, or an F12, or an Aventador. Those are all "exotics". The Viper is an "Exotic Sports Car". It just irks me when media sensationalizes a word and then the general populous goes overboard with it. It's like telling people your cute girlfriend who was featured on an Instagram model page is a "super model". Wrong.



Don't disagree - in fact you're helping the point. The desire is for something than can run with and even surpass those vehicles for a non "super/hyper" price to recapture the "Awe" factor the original had. My argument is that in today's world, it cannot be done and that's ok.

[City]

Everyone is so focused on HP numbers. They are meaningless. Its all power to weight and how the power is transferred to the pavement. (I have raced in 170hp open wheel cars that would kick a Vipers butt)
Hell my race car is 355hp to the wheels/ 2,900lbs and will destroy my ACR on the track

Its all about a complete package: Power to weight, chassis set up, suspension, brakes

Steven, you neglected to mention the most important part of the "package": the driver. Many (not all) of the "more power people" would be satisfied if FCA would advertise that the Viper has 900 HP regardless of whether it actually did. Sorry but JMHO.

[viper_eddie]

The problem is the competition and the image it creates, not the horsepower not being enough. 645 is more than enough. The Ferrari 488 is coming out with 660 horsepower, I believe. The new GT500 is going to have over 700hp. Porsche is going all turbo in the 911 line up (except for the GT3, for now), I'll bet the 911 turbo will put out at least 650 horsepower.

To most people buying new and expensive sports cars, that hp number matters. Bragging rights...

Not to mention that most of the competition mentioned above is auto/DCT now so it will outperform the current Gen 5. I don't need 645 hp or an auto, but the Viper does if it wants to keep up w/ the future performance levels.

[Jack B]

How many in this thread have not tracked a G5. Perhaps the thread would have a diff ring if all posters had tracked a G5.

[mjorgensen]

With the EPA the way they are and our Presidents "agenda" my take is that you better buy a Viper right now at 645hp and not wait for more only to find out it's too late...

[serpent]

The problem is the competition and the image it creates, not the horsepower not being enough. 645 is more than enough. The Ferrari 488 is coming out with 660 horsepower, I believe. The new GT500 is going to have over 700hp. Porsche is going all turbo in the 911 line up (except for the GT3, for now), I'll bet the 911 turbo will put out at least 650 horsepower.

To most people buying new and expensive sports cars, that hp number matters. Bragging rights...

Not to mention that most of the competition mentioned above is auto/DCT now so it will outperform the current Gen 5. I don't need 645 hp or an auto, but the Viper does if it wants to keep up w/ the future performance levels.
I agree, specially with the c7z having 650hp, the viper has always been on the wild side and should have more power. I know this is backwards thinking from my post regarding a faster shifting transmission, but if dodge isn't going that route, what else will entice buyers? The ACR alone won't do it.

I think there are gonna be more vipers sitting on the lots now to next 2-3 years. Mercedes GT, Ferrari 488, 911 Turbo, next gen GTR... I'm excited yet worried at the same time....

[Dman]

OP, to your question I'd say never.

2016 was a refresh year and no increase. We see Dodge using Arrow and Prefix for power and model options. The ACR release with 640hp, if there were a bump it would have it since its mission is simply world domination of track records. All this indicates we'll not see a bump, soon or IMO, probably ever.

As for the debate of whether it needs more power, there's no winning the debate, it's all opinion. We have what we need to rule the track and set records and that's what the viper is about. For those who want street cred HP bumps, no number is enough, and Dodge is telling us we can have it but in the Arrow packages, not factory based, and I'm sure that's due to fed regulations and associated costs.

Someday we'll see a next gen viper and I'm afraid we may all be talking about the good ole V10 days then.

[viper_eddie]

How many in this thread have not tracked a G5. Perhaps the thread would have a diff ring if all posters had tracked a G5.

And how many BUYERS of high end sports cars track their cars vs those that don't? I would venture to guess the vast majority do not track them. So is that market going to be left out completely?

[Steve M]

And how many BUYERS of high end sports cars track their cars vs those that don't? I would venture to guess the vast majority do not track them. So is that market going to be left out completely?

The market that wants to be swinging the biggest wiener around when they pull in to their local gas station? That market will never be satisfied...there's always something bigger and better just around the corner.

I don't think this has anything to do with Dodge's lack of willingness to give us a fire breathing monster (not that the current Viper isn't that already) - it's the fact that they have to work within the rules and regulations set forth by the federal government. There are sound level and emissions restrictions that most hot rodders care nothing about, but they can't be ignored, and they are very difficult to design around with a naturally aspirated platform.

GM stated that they couldn't meet emissions and power requirements with a naturally aspirated engine for the C7Z, so they went with forced induction. So far, that hasn't turned out too well for them. There are some very unhappy Corvette owners that now own the most incapable "track ready" Corvette ever. I don't think that's a wise road to go down with the Viper at all, regardless of how it makes you feel when a 2-ton brick with 707HP pulls in to the pump next to you.

[V10powerr]

Serpent and viper Eddie
I agree

[V10powerr]

And when a 4000 lbs 4 seater will give the halo car a run for its money and possibly beat it, it matters.
Take off your viper hats if u can and u will c a different world
I have a viper hat too but can take it off when I need to and surround yourself with people that don't all think like u - diversity increases strength
We r all here bc we love the viper
My goal is not an argument but just hoping that someone important is reading all our points of view that can make a difference and get all of us a little of what we want

[Steve M]

A run for its money in what? A straight line? On a road course? It can't do either, unless the Viper owner can't drive for shit.

You're talking about cars that have two totally different design points, but the only variable you are considering is the HP figure.

[Dman]

And when a 4000 lbs 4 seater will give the halo car a run for its money and possibly beat it, it matters.
Take off your viper hats if u can and u will c a different world
I have a viper hat too but can take it off when I need to and surround yourself with people that don't all think like u - diversity increases strength
We r all here bc we love the viper
My goal is not an argument but just hoping that someone important is reading all our points of view that can make a difference and get all of us a little of what we want

That's not a viper hat issue, it's an issue that it's not what the viper is, nor has it ever been. For street racing and whatever, people need to buy the hellcat, that's why it exists. Or get a GT500, for $3grand you'll smoke 99% of anything in a straight line. The viper's "run for its money" is around a track, period, the fact that it's a solid 10 sec car with tires and a decent driver is just a side effect of its on track prowess, not in any way its design.

Dodge isn't going to listen to "I want more power so I can smack a modded helcat or mustang out of the gas station", they don't care and aren't marketing to that crowd. I'm not arguing or debating, it's just not what the viper "is". There are cars for that, you can make a viper that thru modification but post all you want, write letters, buy, don't buy, it won't matter, Dodge won't change the mission of the viper - to be the best exotic track oriented sports car you can buy for the money. Hat on or off, it's hard to deny that they achieved that goal, whether they sell more or not, they don't seem interested at all in changing the viper definition - they're teaming with Arrow for that for those who want it. Hate to say it, but if that's an issue then the viper may not be for you, Dodge is counting on catching those folks with the hellcats, especially while Fords big swinging meat-mobile is on sabbatical and who knows what will replace it.

[VENOM V]

Everyone is so focused on HP numbers. They are meaningless. Its all power to weight and how the power is transferred to the pavement. (I have raced in 170hp open wheel cars that would kick a Vipers butt)
Hell my race car is 355hp to the wheels/ 2,900lbs and will destroy my ACR on the track

Its all about a complete package: Power to weight, chassis set up, suspension, brakes

Amen brother, bull's eye.

[VENOM V]

That's not a viper hat issue, it's an issue that it's not what the viper is, nor has it ever been. For street racing and whatever, people need to buy the hellcat, that's why it exists. Or get a GT500, for $3grand you'll smoke 99% of anything in a straight line. The viper's "run for its money" is around a track, period, the fact that it's a solid 10 sec car with tires and a decent driver is just a side effect of its on track prowess, not in any way its design.

Dodge isn't going to listen to "I want more power so I can smack a modded helcat or mustang out of the gas station", they don't care and aren't marketing to that crowd. I'm not arguing or debating, it's just not what the viper "is". There are cars for that, you can make a viper that thru modification but post all you want, write letters, buy, don't buy, it won't matter, Dodge won't change the mission of the viper - to be the best exotic track oriented sports car you can buy for the money. Hat on or off, it's hard to deny that they achieved that goal, whether they sell more or not, they don't seem interested at all in changing the viper definition - they're teaming with Arrow for that for those who want it. Hate to say it, but if that's an issue then the viper may not be for you, Dodge is counting on catching those folks with the hellcats, especially while Fords big swinging meat-mobile is on sabbatical and who knows what will replace it.

Another excellent post, I have nothing to add. Except that I am selfishly loving that Dodge's energy went into all the right areas in the 2016 ACR - ridiculously awesome aero, brakes, sticky rubber, adjustable coilovers, spherical bearings. It is not a 3-lap wonder like the Z06 or they hyper-exotics like the 918 or P1. It is a REAL track car that can run lap after lap all day, in the heat of summer, reliably. It was not made for the majority of car guys, it was made for guys like me that obsess on track performance. And at a price that is surprisingly low for it's world-beater performance.

[Stealth]

Just curious how many of you: (1) own or owned a Gen IV or Gen V; and (2) have taken your car to a high-speed road courses? (Really what the Viper is designed for).

I suspect many are Starbucks cruisers who would like a badge like the C7Z and C6Z have to display the HP. The Hellcats are great for this purpose.

This Saturday I was at CA Autoclub Speedway in a HPDE running the Professional Big Sportscar course in my Gen V GTS (first HPDE in this car), which I have also run in my Gen IV, C5Z, C6Z, 1000cc Honda Sportbike, etc. While 90% of the cars in my group were race-prepped cars with race rubber and giant wings (esp. older M3s with this group), the Viper on street tires was really about the most powerful thing there. Of course, there were faster (around the track) race cars, especially in the very tight turns and on the later part of the high-banked oval (lack of driver cojones on my part >135mph). Some excellent drivers in far less powerful cars are very fast. The point is that the last thing I needed, or 99% of others will need in a street car, is more power than the 645hp/600trq put out by the near bullet-proof Gen V motor. It is just smokin' powerful and has no issues. We add gas, oil, brake pads, etc.; others add motors and transmissions (and if you have a C7Z, possibly new radiators, TSTATs, new superchargers, etc.). The Gen V has Power and torque everywhere on demand, no overheating, no issues. This is an amazing car. If you want true track dominance, then get the ACR--more downforce, bigger brakes, race rubber, etc.

Of course, if there is more power, then I would take it! :)

People who would actually benefit from more power in the Viper are likely illegal street racers or sanctioned standing mile, Silver State Classic, etc. drivers. The sanctioned drivers can now mod their cars through Viper Exchange/Arrow.

Moving forward, with Tim K at the Helm (excellent so far), I would love to see the Viper lose a bit of weight (200lbs?) and offer a DCT (I know, sacrilege, but a true DCT will maximize the motor's power). If power gets too much higher, then you are talking about the need for AWD with rear bias, etc.

As for the hypercars, good luck even seeing them in your run groups. These cars also typically lose the bottom end torque of the electric motors and some of the overall grunt once the stored electric power is depleted. Of course, there is also the complexity of the cars, the inability to realistically drive it anywhere and the price. Further, I am still in the "disappointed" camp that the new FGT elected to use the DT Prototype TT V-6--even if it does exceed 700hp as rumored. Sad sign for the future.

Keep up the good work Dodge!

[V10powerr]

Here we go -
Excuses
It's for the track - if u don't track it buy a hellcat
It's not meant for a straight line
Etc
Sounds like the corvette forum - it's not for the track it's a street car, it's got Better gas mileage etc

To each his own
But there are more viper owners that don't track the car than do track but feel free to live in the world that I want to
I bought one bc I got a good deal on a 13 but no way I was paying 110k for it as it stands
At some point it will matter
the sales numbers will show it

[Eachey51]

I know i dont own a viper but im just confused as to why you guys are complaining so much about not having enough power. The car is faster than almost anything else under 300k and with a few bolt-ons is a freight train! My car does not have nearly the power of a viper but i am happy with what its got because it does its intended job very well. I guess if hp is everything to you than buy a hypercar or buy an arrow racing package? The viper provided unmatched performance for the buck. I am afraid if you had what you are screaming for the price would be too high for you.

[ViperJon]

Just curious how many of you: (1) own or owned a Gen IV or Gen V; and (2) have taken your car to a high-speed road courses? (Really what the Viper is designed for).
I suspect many are Starbucks cruisers who would like a badge like the C7Z and C6Z have to display the HP. The Hellcats are great for this purpose.


Hate to tell you but Dodge needs the waxers and Starbuck cruisers to buy Vipers MORE than the 20 guys who might track them.
Their money is just as green and there are far more of them.

[ViperSmith]

Here we go -
Excuses
It's for the track - if u don't track it buy a hellcat
It's not meant for a straight line
Etc
Sounds like the corvette forum - it's not for the track it's a street car, it's got Better gas mileage etc

To each his own
But there are more viper owners that don't track the car than do track but feel free to live in the world that I want to
I bought one bc I got a good deal on a 13 but no way I was paying 110k for it as it stands
At some point it will matter
the sales numbers will show it

Would an 800HP Viper turn heads? Well yes. But the reality is the 8.XL V10 is pretty much maxed out what they can squeeze out of it and pass EPA regulations. Just reality. If they could have made the NA V10 hit 700HP, they sure as hell would have.

The Viper is quicker in the straight line than the Hellcat, track, anything. No excuses, just fact.

Would more HP hurt? Of course not.

[Eachey51]

Hate to tell you but Dodge needs the waxers and Starbuck cruisers to buy Vipers MORE than the 20 guys who might track them.
Their money is just as green and there are far more of them.
I agree with this! But in my opinion the viper should hold captive that crowd as it sits, especially with the new acr! It is a car that will make you crap your pants and wet them as well! Sinester and sexy.

[lochnessmonster]

I can't be the only person who doesn't think this car needs more power, at least at sea level.

I agree. One week into ownership and I can't imagine having more power. Putting the power to the ground is already an issue. It certainly is an awesome problem to have.........................

[V10powerr]

I totally agree vipersmith
I think if they could have they would have
I love mine as is and think it's a good amount of power but I am also a viper guy
My point was that there have been a lot of cars that sat around and part of that reason was marketing but the other part was wow hp factor
The same marketing team did the hellcats but the people caught onto that bc of the wow hp even though it does even compare in looks to a viper
All I am saying is if they want a different result they have to change the input more than they have- eg 1 of 1
For track owners they did just that with the new acr- others brands are looking at it as well with the weight and downforce and mean look saying wow

[viper_eddie]

Hate to tell you but Dodge needs the waxers and Starbuck cruisers to buy Vipers MORE than the 20 guys who might track them.
Their money is just as green and there are far more of them.

Their money is greener because there's more of them, a lot more. What many people here aren't understanding is that us Viper guys ARE NOT complaining that we want more power. We are just raising the prospect of more power selling more cars. That's all there is to it; whether it's tracked or not makes zero difference. As Jon said, their money is green too and I would argue it's greener because there's more of it.

With all of the new turbocharged and DCT/auto competition coming out soon, the Viper won't have such an easy task of beating them. I would argue, if possible from an EPA point of view, add a supercharger option for extra $$$. Something along the lines of the 911 and 911 Turbo.

[Viktimize]

How many in this thread have not tracked a G5. Perhaps the thread would have a diff ring if all posters had tracked a G5.

You can't track your car on the street where most of us do the majority of our driving. So the car being fast on the track really is irrelevant to wanting more power.

[F2V]

More power??? Instead, how about a request more likely to happen...a switch next to the fuel cap release, to easily open the annoying and rediculously functioning rear hatch!!

[MtnBiker]

Isn't it great to have the aftermarket choices to increase performance in so many ways now :)! Whoo hoo!

[kdaviper]

The Viper is neither supercar nor hypercar. A "Supercar" was a $450k+ car back in 1992. In the late 90s a Supercar cost $1mm plus. The term "hypercar" only applies to supercars with hybrid tech, and even then it's a childish name. Supercar territory starts in the $800ks. It's wishful thinking and preposterous to call the Viper a Supercar, or a Gallardo, or an F12, or an Aventador. Those are all "exotics". The Viper is an "Exotic Sports Car". It just irks me when media sensationalizes a word and then the general populous goes overboard with it. It's like telling people your cute girlfriend who was featured on an Instagram model page is a "super model". Wrong.

Now on to the Viper. There are mixed opinions but the truth is crystal clear. The Viper is a beast. With 800NA HP it will more than likely give the Ferrari supercars a run for their money. FIAT will not allow that. Remember a little BMW called the M1? They discontinued it because it was outperforming the M3. Porsche has also made it public that they generally will not allow cheaper cars to outperform their flagships. The Viper is being held back and will continue to be held back. Fortunately they green lighted the ACR. Now maybe we'll see a Ring time eclipsing the La Ferrari but I highly doubt it.

supercar is a marketing term, nothing more, nothing less. until the SAE, NHTSA, etc come up with a definition, a marketing term is all it shall ever be.

[MalingatorGTS]

I don't have a dog in the Gen V battle, but I do have some good friends with some pretty big $ cars and I normally don't hear them asking who has a better dyno sheet. One of my friends who has a VERY nice collection of two Ford GTs, 2 Ferrari a Lambo and a GTR never says, oh I'd buy a Viper if it had more power. In fact, he loves Vipers and says he is going to add one to his collection when he finds the "right one." The HP numbers don't make him think about not getting one because a Hellcat has more.

Many who care about a dyno number have zero idea what it translates to when on the road or track for that matter. None of the BIG "hyper" "super" car builders look at a Hellcat and think OMG...whatever will we do about this?! They don't care. The person buying a HC isn't looking at their cars anyway. Now if you buy one because you want one, DD it, like it, whatever and own another car, so be it. Is the same person looking at a Viper not going to buy one because a HC has more HP on paper? It's a different market, different cars.

As others have said, most never track their car, be they Viper owner, Vette, Lambo, Ferrari, whatever. Most HC owners won't either. The cars are about what they do for you personally as an owner. Now would we buy a Viper with 200 HP, NO, but that would be against the design of the car.

Not to turn this into a HC topic, but as some feel it pushed past the Viper as a "Halo car" the simple answer is this.....Pull your HC into a local gas station and then have a Viper of ANY gen pull in, see which draws a crowd. I was parked next to a Sublime HC at Cruise night a few weeks ago. Now it did get plenty of attention...for people that knew it was a HC. Most thought it was just another Challenger even with the hood open. I had a tough time getting a single pic of my car without a crowd around it. No one cared it had less HP then the car parked next to me. Even the HC owner said..."sure, there had to be a Viper parked next to me..."

[darbgnik]

You can't track your car on the street where most of us do the majority of our driving. So the car being fast on the track really is irrelevant to wanting more power.

Guaranteed, I will end up with significantly more street miles than track miles on my car, but it being good on the track is the only reason I bought it. Also why I had to have it delivered before my first track event in April.

On the flip side, 99 out of a 100 owners couldn't get their car anywhere near the best lap or quarter mile time it's capable of, but it doesn't stop them from telling others that it can...... HP is the same thing. People want it, and want to tell others about it. It doesn't factor in that they can't use some of it already. Every guy who takes an onramp at 30 over the limit thinks they know how to drive a car fast.

To be honest, the track is the only place where I can sanely use the power the car has already. The only place the Corsas have been warm enough no to haze themselves into oblivion when I'm on it. I still can't get this thing to hook at 150 kph(90mph) on our awesome Canadian highways, unless I roll into it or use a higher gear.

But we have to face facts, most of these cars are poser vehicles sold to poser buyers, if you are not one of them, don't be offended I said it. And posers love numbers. HP is a number, and will sell more cars.

[I Bin Therbefor]

Hate to tell you but Dodge needs the waxers and Starbuck cruisers to buy Vipers MORE than the 20 guys who might track them.
Their money is just as green and there are far more of them.

:t1236:

I've been preaching this from day one. We need that money to keep the Viper in production and development. The ACR is here, all that is needed now is to add an AT to the one-of-one options list.

[ViperGeorge]

:t1236:

I've been preaching this from day one. We need that money to keep the Viper in production and development. The ACR is here, all that is needed now is to add an AT to the one-of-one options list.

Don't dismiss the track guys. I track one of my Vipers and I'm currently on my 7th Viper. Actually have three right now an 08, 14, and 15. Also have an SRT 8 Grand Cherokee, a Jeep Wrangler, and I bought my son a 2015 Challenger RT. If it wasn't for the fun I've had tracking my Viper I wouldn't be so crazy about Mopar. I was raised a Ford guy.

[Simms]

Arrow Performance is working on the 9.0L V10

More info please.

[Jack B]

The point is, if you do not race, honestly, why should you care if you do not have the most hp of any production car in the world. Secondly, how many viper owners make max hp the number 1 purchase criteria. Lastly, if a poster does not even own a G5, how does he qualify to ask for more power, isn't this the voa.



And how many BUYERS of high end sports cars track their cars vs those that don't? I would venture to guess the vast majority do not track them. So is that market going to be left out completely?

[Jack B]

The point is, if you do not race, honestly, why should you care if you do not have the most hp of any production car in the world. Secondly, how many viper owners make max hp the number 1 purchase criteria. Lastly, if a poster does not even own a viper how is he qualified when asking f
or more power, isn't this the voa.



And how many BUYERS of high end sports cars track their cars vs those that don't? I would venture to guess the vast majority do not track them. So is that market going to be left out completely?

[Disturbed]

Show of hands...who here has been in a twin turbo Viper on Kill? (I have).

Who has been on track in a preped Viper (I have).

For anyone who thinks the Viper doesn't need more power, you haven't felt the trill of twin turbo Viper, the power is addictive.

Also slicks on a race preped car is also addictive.

My point: There is a place for the ACR and a HIGH HP (twin turbo 800hp+) viper. For those of us who are track rats the ACR fits the bill but for those who are power junkies who want to do a tune and a few bolt-ons and make 1000-1200hp HP there is no option. I've argued this many times and there is a place for a smaller displacement (say 426ci) TT-V10 in the family.

Don't fight the power junkies because for every 1 ACR they sell they could sell 2 or 3 high HP Street Serpent (would be about as cool as hellcat :-) ). The viper was once know because of its big hp/TQ. Why can't it do it again. A SC or Turbo would fit the bill with a DCT (or auto). That would help sell a few more cars and keep the viper going for a long time. Base(entry), GTS (nicely loaded grand tour), ACR (Road race track monster) and Street Serpent (high HP monster). There is a place for them all. I do think that a power bump is needed in the next Gen car.

[TitleMine]

The Viper is neither supercar nor hypercar. A "Supercar" was a $450k+ car back in 1992. In the late 90s a Supercar cost $1mm plus. The term "hypercar" only applies to supercars with hybrid tech, and even then it's a childish name. Supercar territory starts in the $800ks. It's wishful thinking and preposterous to call the Viper a Supercar, or a Gallardo, or an F12, or an Aventador. Those are all "exotics". The Viper is an "Exotic Sports Car". It just irks me when media sensationalizes a word and then the general populous goes overboard with it.

Your terminology is out of date, unfortunately, and I think it's way too late to try to go back to the old usage. It always erks people when common usage breaks away from what they got used to as language evolves, but it absolutely has in this case. Today, roughly, a supercar is "watered down" to include any car that:

Is produced in lots of 3000 or less per year.

Has an MSRP of at least 100,000.

Is subjectively "very fast." That can mean different things; the Aventador will obviously blow the doors off a Vanquish, but both would be labeled "supercars" by virtually all reviewers.

What you're describing, cars 800K+ in double or very low triple digit production numbers that are mind-shatteringly fast, like 3.3 seconds or less to 60 and 10 second 1/4 times, have been re-labeled as "hypercars." These are what supercars were in 1992.

So cars like the ZR1, GTR Nismo, 911 GT3, and Viper are teetering on the brink. You'll rarely get any flak for calling them supercars in most environments, though you would if you stuck that label on a down-trim model like a GTR Black or a Z06. In contrast, virtually nobody would bat an eye if you called a Hurican or a 458 a supercar.

I know that's out of joint with 90's lingo, but that's just the cut-and-dry reality now.

[viper_eddie]

The point is, if you do not race, honestly, why should you care if you do not have the most hp of any production car in the world. Secondly, how many viper owners make max hp the number 1 purchase criteria. Lastly, if a poster does not even own a viper how is he qualified when asking f
or more power, isn't this the voa.

What does owning a G5 have to do with me posting here and just because I don't own a G5 means I can't state my opinion that more HP would sell more cars?

Also, if the G5 doesn't need more HP, why did you get Belangers and HP tuners on ur 13? Let me guess, the Belangers for sound and the HP tuners for...more...power?

[Martin]

From a head design standpoint, direct injection isn't too difficult - it can be done in a way that can be a retrofit to other cars with a head replacement (along with a whole new high-pressure fuel delivery system, and PCM). The beauty of direct injection is it decreases the amount of time it takes for the fuel to get to where it does its job, and that gives the carmaker more latitude in passing EPA BS. At the same time, it gives a wider operating margin for maintaining EPA compliance while adding modifications. So, they could implement direct injection with a much lower investment than the cam-in-cam technology, and give the buyer a much wider range to modify without causing the stupid CEL problems.

Direct injection is nothing special - if you look at manufacturers around the world, they're all implementing it just to meet emissions requirements. But, with economy comes power - make better use of the available energy content of the fuel, and you open the door to more horsepower (or economy if that's the objective). Porsche has done a really good job with it on their higher performance cars.

Hopefully it happens. I'm not going to wait for it, but I'm hoping that it does come out.

[I Bin Therbefor]

Don't dismiss the track guys. I track one of my Vipers and I'm currently on my 7th Viper. Actually have three right now an 08, 14, and 15. Also have an SRT 8 Grand Cherokee, a Jeep Wrangler, and I bought my son a 2015 Challenger RT. If it wasn't for the fun I've had tracking my Viper I wouldn't be so crazy about Mopar. I was raised a Ford guy.

I'm not dismissing anyone. You've got the ACR. But the track guys purchases can't keep the car in production without the market expanding. The sports cars that I'm aware of all have a halo model but sell lots of the base model and boulevard cruisers. The track guys are needed to enable the production of the halo model and halo track experience, but the base model and boulevard cruisers (read AT) provide the majority of the income stream.

[Reaper]

More power could be had out of this N/A engine fairly easily but youd have to take it in a different direction. How about a hemi head with a 11 to 1 compression and its made to run on E85? With a stock octane rating of 103-105, the higher compression isnt a problem. Alcohol also has a cooling effect on an engine so that helps with added heat. Theres nothing special about a current Viper cylinder head. Its just a big, inline valve, CNC'd head. A true hemi head, splayed valve, domed piston set up would really add power. The second plan would be a little more drastic. Since Fiat is in charge, they could go a high tech European style with a double overhead cam, 4 valve setup. Imagine how much air a 8.4 liter engine could suck in through 4 valve heads and say 6800 rpm. This would make 750 easy still N/A. I kind of agree that the car really doesnt NEED more power but power increases are part of the inevitable evolution of performance cars so its bound to happen. Im sure back in 1992 people said the Vipers 400 hp was plenty. Now it makes 245 more than the old original. For some too much is just right or never enough but balance is the key to a Viper. Too much power and you offset its other strengths like handling. Its not a drag car, its a supercar so all aspects have to be calculated out.

[ViperSmith]

I think 800HP would be a blast - but it really needs the ability to put that power down efficiently. For almost all, 645 on the street is a complete waste as is they'll never come close to leveraging that on their best weekend sprints.

Without something to keep the car from spinnong off into telephone poles, it's just an exercise for bragging at cars and coffee

I really don't think HP is this cars issue. The 991 GT3RS is virtually sold out already, it'll keep up well with the ACR - it has a measly 500HP. The GTR has never been a HP King. The 991 ttS is far behind the Viper.

It needs the power to be accessible via flappy paddles or the like. That's whatll help sell more in 2015.

[The_Don]

IMO sports cars have hit some sort of a wall. Everything has a lot of power, and for the most part, anything more is just a gimmick. I think the most important factor should always be driver satisfaction at this point. Everything is fast now, and chances are most people won't be racing anyways.

[Jack B]

I must have hit a nerve, read a little closer, in my last post, I commented that some of the posters don't even own a viper (not a G5). I find it hilarious that some posters do not own a viper, however, they comment on why it needs more hp, that is a disconnect no matter how you package it. Again, you are not paying attention, what does aftermarket modding have to do with a company producing a a high hp oem car. I enjoy working on cars, I think it is called doing, I don't sit back and make hollow comments on why the car needs more hp. You really should do some research and see how many times this topic has appeared on the three sites, i am sorry I do not like ground hog day posts, just a guess, most of the VOA members probably feel the same..


What does owning a G5 have to do with me posting here and just because I don't own a G5 means I can't state my opinion that more HP would sell more cars?

Also, if the G5 doesn't need more HP, why did you get Belangers and HP tuners on ur 13? Let me guess, the Belangers for sound and the HP tuners for...more...power?

[sparkrn]

Any guesses on when the Viper will see a power increase? I was kind of shocked when the 2016 models didn't receive a power increase to close the gap from the Hellcat. It's hard for me to think that Dodge can let the Hellcat continue to be the horsepower king over the Halo car. I have heard a rumor that Dodge was developing a 10L engine to get over 700hp N/A but I am not sure if there is any truth to that rumor.

Maybe a bunch of weight also is in order. See more isn't always good. Like the Hellcat.

[V10 Snake]

this post pretty much sums it up. It is not 1992 anymore, the Viper will never be the big, bad bully on the block like the 90's, just too many good sports cars out there.
The availability of super/hyper cars today is not the same as it was in 1992. The world today is a lot smaller than it was back then. We are instantly aware of the newest and latest super cars even from tiny shops or with tiny production numbers. Making a splash in that environment takes a much bigger stone than it used to. I don't think there's any way the Viper can reproduce that kind of impact - there are just already too many options at too many price points. It will never be in hyper car territory - simple economics prevent it (can't get $1million performance for 1/10th the cost).

I don't think that's a problem, but I do think people who talk about "recapturing" the "glory days" don't really even understand what they mean. Even at 800 hp, this car still wouldn't get the respect the originals did. The original was unlike anything being sold (much less made) in America. The newly introduced Ford GT would already steal spotlights and garner comparison not to mention the plethora of foreign supercars which are way more common now. Even the P1 has the 918 to fight against - frankly speaking the only car that costs less than a cool million in recent memory to gain the kind of excitement the Viper had (albeit for different reasons) is the Tesla. And that has nothing to do with power - it's simply considered new and revolutionary.

The Viper can never be new. It was new in '92. That's ok.

The Viper stands on it's own today and the list of things I'd rather own is preciously short.

[viper_eddie]

I must have hit a nerve, read a little closer, in my last post, I commented that some of the posters don't even own a viper (not a G5). I find it hilarious that some posters do not own a viper, however, they comment on why it needs more hp, that is a disconnect no matter how you package it. Again, you are not paying attention, what does aftermarket modding have to do with a company producing a a high hp oem car. I enjoy working on cars, I think it is called doing, I don't sit back and make hollow comments on why the car needs more hp. You really should do some research and see how many times this topic has appeared on the three sites, i am sorry I do not like ground hog day posts, just a guess, most of the VOA members probably feel the same..

I went off your first post (where you said G5) because I assumed your 2nd one was a double post :)

To me it doesn't matter if someone is an owner or not, their opinions as potential future owners are definitely valuable. And I don't understand what you working on cars ("doing" as you called it) has to do with being able to make a comment on the car needing more hp, whereas, a guy who makes "hollow" comments is not? As Jon said, their money is green too. That's the whole point some of us are trying to make. The guy that gets in his car once every month to drive it 5 miles to Starbucks is still a potential customer.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

[darbgnik]

Show of hands...who here has been in a twin turbo Viper on Kill? (I have).

Who has been on track in a preped Viper (I have).For anyone who thinks the Viper doesn't need more power, you haven't felt the trill of twin turbo Viper, the power is addictive.

Also slicks on a race preped car is also addictive.

My point: There is a place for the ACR and a HIGH HP (twin turbo 800hp+) viper. For those of us who are track rats the ACR fits the bill but for those who are power junkies who want to do a tune and a few bolt-ons and make 1000-1200hp HP there is no option. I've argued this many times and there is a place for a smaller displacement (say 426ci) TT-V10 in the family.

Don't fight the power junkies because for every 1 ACR they sell they could sell 2 or 3 high HP Street Serpent (would be about as cool as hellcat :-) ). The viper was once know because of its big hp/TQ. Why can't it do it again. A SC or Turbo would fit the bill with a DCT (or auto). That would help sell a few more cars and keep the viper going for a long time. Base(entry), GTS (nicely loaded grand tour), ACR (Road race track monster) and Street Serpent (high HP monster). There is a place for them all. I do think that a power bump is needed in the next Gen car.


Congratulations on tasting the rare. While I understand your position to a point, while there is a market for both, they are mutually exclusive. I have tracked a lot, and it's been my experience that every high horsepower youtube freeway burner has issues on a roadcourse. Every one I've seen pushed, whether aftermarket TT'd cars, or supercharged ones, have issues. The amount of development necessary to make it good at both is very cost prohibitive, ask the few unhappy C7 Z06 owners...... But no worry, that's why aftermarket tuners build them. Not for track rats. Which the general consensus here, the Viper is tailored to. Sorry to any older Gen owners, but being honest, the first gen, high (for the time) HP Vipers, were not exactly surgical track scalpels. This is still the reputation they carry today to the uninformed.

And I have no idea how to make the connection from a race prepped car, to a factory offering. One would assume if your modding the car for serious track duty, the EPA doesn't play in........

In the end, if the Viper had a box for more power, I'd tick it, just because. I also believe the HP rating if, borderline absurd, will sell more cars as well, owners getting any use out of it would be irrelevant. So do we agree? I think so.

[Aspirations57]

I love reading threads like this I feel like I am back on F-chat in the classifieds with idiots telling me what my scud was worth when in reality they were 16 year old honda fart can pilots,lol......I remember back in 09-10 when everyone was wondering if the Viper would be killed off and what they thought the next generation Viper had to look like and have as far as options and power, well Dodge has delivered for the most part and people are still bitching and want more?
Some people are never happy and want Dodge to build a 500K Viper and sell it for 90K,lol...Yes there are lots of choices out there but if you are really true to yourself and know what you REALLY want in a sports car you will realize what a good deal the Gen V is.

viper_eddie

To me it doesn't matter if someone is an owner or not, their opinions as potential future owners are definitely valuable.

I have to strongly disagree... You DON'T get to bitch unless you own one! That is like me saying Ferrari should build their newest model blah,blah, blah way at xxx price and MAYBE I will buy it..( I owned a 599 and a 430 Scuderia). To me a non-owner who bitches about the Viper will probably never own one let alone a real sports-car. These trolls will always find something wrong with the Viper when its really all about their K-mart cash-flow. We all want the most for our money,Iam sure I do ,so if your not happy with the Viper in its many iterations move on as there are certainly many choices out there. Rant-Over

[V10powerr]

Sorry have to disagree with you - just bc a person does not own one does not mean they won't - I waited for 18 months after release of the gen v to buy one and was trying to figure out which direction to go in.
I visited the vette forums as well to see what the consensus was before making a decision.
People are on this forum bc of interest in this car and even if they don't have one or can't afford one they still get to share their thoughts as they may one day get one. They have many other things they can do with their valuable time.
As for trolls I believe that we need to be objective rather than label someone on this forum. Listen to message rather than the messenger and be objective. Trolls or not whomever they are of what they are saying is true, and bc we may not like it, we have to accept it. In my book there are no trolls.
Nobody is complaining, we are asking for more. Just bc u have a lot of money does not mean u will not work for or ask your boss for more though u may like your salary and your job.

[v10CodeMonkey]

Lol, never thought I see the day where a bunch of viper owners don't want more power. I suppose if they somehow come up with a 750hp version in the future you guys will mod them down to 645hp?

Nothing wrong with the non track crowd (like me) wanting more hp. As others have already said, hp numbers help sell cars, regardless whether they actually improve track times. Being able to tell people a hp number that isn't already eclipsed by both Corvettes and Mustangs means something to (some) owners. And can be the deciding factor on buying vs not buying. I know most owners on here aren't like that, but there are a lot of them out there and they help keep the car alive.

[darbgnik]

Lol, never thought I see the day where a bunch of viper owners don't want more power. I suppose if they somehow come up with a 750hp version in the future you guys will mod them down to 645hp?

Nothing wrong with the non track crowd (like me) wanting more hp. As others have already said, hp numbers help sell cars, regardless whether they actually improve track times. Being able to tell people a hp number that isn't already eclipsed by both Corvettes and Mustangs means something to (some) owners. And can be the deciding factor on buying vs not buying. I know most owners on here aren't like that, but there are a lot of them out there and they help keep the car alive.

I can understand all the different points of view when these threads show up. And most people are wishing for a magic bullet to keep the Viper alive, which is a good thing, despite whatever they actually use the car for.

[Snakebit10]

Wow and the cycle continues. Myself and a few others got hammered and labeled trolls and haters when the G5 came out for consistantly suggesting it needed CCB's, fully adjustable suspension and more power because of the infamous tests it failed at. A year or two down the line Dodge listened and now we have 2 out of the 3 (CCB's and fuly adjustable suspension) added to the ACR package inspite of the usual suspects that always try to shut up and drown out anyone that has the nerve to suggest the Viper can be improved.

Keep on asking for more power. Dodge is listening obviously. If they cant do it now I'm sure it will happen in the near future. Imho no one here would reject an ACR or other Viper model with a power increase. They would welcome it as the evidence shows quite a few track rats have added power mods. This back and forth is pointless because both the owners (track rats and street driven) and potential buyers want more power lol.

Wants and needs are too different things. Does the Viper need more power? What it can do on the track suggests its got more than enough power. But like some have said people want what they want and wont buy till they get it. Want to sell more units? Give people more of what they want...and then market the car properly so that the masses know that you have given them what they wanted.

[Eachey51]

More power may sell a few more vipers but that is easily accesable in the aftermarket. There are even warrentied options for more power. What i really believe would sell more vipers and bring in the "waxers" is a good auto trans. I would hate to see it but if dodge needs to sell more vipers to keep it slive as some of you state, an auto is probably the way to go.

[Viperawi]

I see a different numbers thrown here, 750, 1000-1200, 800, 900 HP and with the options to achieve those numbers. I really respect that. It is a reflection of different views of different owners/Potential owners that have a goal to have the right viper for them and there is nothing wrong with that !
Now, whether the viper should or should not have those numbers/options is subjective. You can't have them all and you can't make everyone happy.

But for a fact, I purchased my viper not because of its HP numbers but for its unique personality. For example, here where I live, if we go into an argument about cars and HP we intend to brag about the 8.4L, because that's a scary thing no other car with the same price level have it. 640 HP means nothing to us most of the time.
Again, the personality that I believe sells more vipers than any other factor, it is the whole package with that great price. So it will make wonders to have more HP with the same personality but that means more money. The viper cost now is about right, adding more power and upgrade some other options to accommodate it will increase the cost a bit.

I used to like, not love, the corvette Z06 but never gave it a second look when it was supercharged. It lost something even if it is a great car overall. The Viper future should remain focused on the personality, even if it means more HP.

That's just my thoughts.

[2snakes]

Im still hoping for the supercharged version from the factory

[Disturbed]

Wow and the cycle continues. Myself and a few others got hammered and labeled trolls and haters when the G5 came out for consistantly suggesting it needed CCB's, fully adjustable suspension and more power because of the infamous tests it failed at. A year or two down the line Dodge listened and now we have 2 out of the 3 (CCB's and fuly adjustable suspension) added to the ACR package inspite of the usual suspects that always try to shut up and drown out anyone that has the nerve to suggest the Viper can be improved.

Keep on asking for more power. Dodge is listening obviously. If they cant do it now I'm sure it will happen in the near future. Imho no one here would reject an ACR or other Viper model with a power increase. They would welcome it as the evidence shows quite a few track rats have added power mods. This back and forth is pointless because both the owners (track rats and street driven) and potential buyers want more power lol.

Wants and needs are too different things. Does the Viper need more power? What it can do on the track suggests its got more than enough power. But like some have said people want what they want and wont buy till they get it. Want to sell more units? Give people more of what they want...and then market the car properly so that the masses know that you have given them what they wanted.

And we still get hammered for wanting more power! Admittedly I was a 6sp diehard until I got a good taste of a DCT and have grown to love it. I love what they have done with the 1:1 program. I think they are in the right track. The hellcat twins have proven HP sells cars. The addition of a DCT/auto would only help bolster sells. I have found the DCT to be the perfect compromise between track prowess and daily Driveablity.

How bad ass would a 1:1 ACR @ 3300lbs, DCT, CCB, w/2500lbs of down force and a TT-V10 @800hp. I'm sure the guys who say 645hp is almost too much will be changing their tune quickly once they feel the rush of power. laptimes would continue to fall. It's a win:win for all Viper nation.

I will keep saying it, there is a place in the Viper lineup for a FI and NA from the factory. History has proven me correct with so many models over the year.

[IndyRon]

I could care less about the number, I just want it to scare me when I stomp on it in 3rd and 4th. Sure, you want it tractable power if possible, but I'll take it either way. :)

[Snakebit10]

I agree I always thought there is room for an FI'd and DCT's model as well. Id like to see the more streetable Vipers (GTC, GT) get an FI option for those that mainly have fun in the mile events or basically the straightaway stuff. Why not?

FI would bring a potiential area for unreliability to the more track focused versions of the Viper like the TA's and ACR so I wouldn't mind seeing those models stay NA with whatever bump in power they can give it while maintaining emissions if thats possible. I dont see the DCT option coming to the Gen 5 though. Maybe the Gen 6.

Weight loss might be prefered to FI for some for the ACR if a bump in power cant be reliably done NA.

[AM.MSCL]

When Dick W. left Dodge/SRT and is now working for Arrow Performance in their Engine development; that gives the impression that Dodge/SRT is more than happy with the current Horsepower of the Viper.
Unfortunately Dodge/SRT islooking at the writing of the $ of making more $ from selling more HC for $30K-40K less than the Vipers.
Attending one of the regional Viper weekend I believe Ben and Bernie were talking about how 2010 saw more ACRs than Coupes and Convertibles. Also reading about the pre-order list WoodHouse Dodge and ViperExchange have on the new ACR; 2016 might see more ACRs being built than Coupes and Verts.

My biggest gripe of all performance manufactured cars (GM, MOPAR, FORD, FOREIGN) put Headers and a real performance exhaust system on the car from the factory!! I don't believe the EPA excuse for a reason to not due this. They spend enough $ on doing all other R&D on these cars they can tune the cars to no create Engine Light because of the O2 sensors. This is something that is easy enough to do and get the HP bump to 700 or damn close.

[Roddy]

Everyone is so focused on HP numbers. They are meaningless. Its all power to weight and how the power is transferred to the pavement. (I have raced in 170hp open wheel cars that would kick a Vipers butt)
Hell my race car is 355hp to the wheels/ 2,900lbs and will destroy my ACR on the track

Its all about a complete package: Power to weight, chassis set up, suspension, brakes

Very true.

And I hate to say it but a fast shifting 8 speed auto is all this Viper really needs. All the supercars have gone this way to achieve higher levels of performance.

But yes Horsepower Numbers sell cars.

[dasvolk]

Hate to tell you but Dodge needs the waxers and Starbuck cruisers to buy Vipers MORE than the 20 guys who might track them.
Their money is just as green and there are far more of them.

Does Dodge actually make any money on the Viper? I have a hard time imagining how they can sell this much performance for ~$100K

[Disturbed]

Does Dodge actually make any money on the Viper? I have a hard time imagining how they can sell this much performance for ~$100K

The car has been evolving with each gen. For example the Gen3 engine and drivetrain is just a evolution of the Gen2...but the chassis got tweeted a bit. The Gen4 and Gen5 chassis and brakes are evolutions of the Gen3. Gen5 engine is an evolution of the Gen4. It's been small steps with each generation. Now each Gen has it own thing that was unique. For example most people can't tell the dif between a Gen3 and Gen4. Why? Body (except hood), Chassis and interior where identical, however the upgrade was mostly in the engine, ECU and trans. So with Gen5, the engine and drivetrain have some tweets but a new body and interior however the chassis is just a tweet of the Gen 3/4.

No Gen was ever a totally new car. If you study the Gens you can see the evolutions G1-5. There was always something that was carried over from one to another.


* stupid auto correct keeps changing tweek to tweet. :mad:

[ViperJon]

Does Dodge actually make any money on the Viper? I have a hard time imagining how they can sell this much performance for ~$100K

Apparently they do, seeing as they could just hack 15K off the early Gen V MSRP's and stay in business...:)

[ViperPete]

Here is the 9.0L block. Dick Winkles also said they are also working on a 10L block.

850HP NA should not be a problem

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b398/skyy406/Viper%20Plant/IMG_0937_zpsmuteqb8w.jpg

[Disturbed]

10786

I tried to have a 10L block on my last build (that also would have been TT'd).....it didn't end so well for the block. A 610ci-TT is my ideal Viper motor. What is amazing is the 4.250 sleeves will fit and a 4.250 billet stroker crank (from Moldex it's 86lbs!) is all that's needed. No crazy long stroke or deck-plate needed to make it work. I suspect Dick is getting to do the things he wanted to do with Prefix that he couldn't do @ SRT. That's not a knock on Dodge or the SRT program, it's just that it's two different games with two different rules.


EDIT: Just saying that each cyl is 1L or 1000cc's is just silly and puts a smile on my face. :)




Here is the 9.0L block. Dick Winkles also said they are also working on a 10L block.

850HP NA should not be a problem

[dasvolk]

I ask because, for example, VW was known to lose money on each Veyron, Toyota for each LF-A and so on. Many of the flagship vehicles for the larger brands can't be built profitably, and aren't, because they are essentially rolling PR. Ford is charging very big money for the new GT too.

[MBG2.0]

I ask because, for example, VW was known to lose money on each Veyron, Toyota for each LF-A and so on. Many of the flagship vehicles for the larger brands can't be built profitably, and aren't, because they are essentially rolling PR. Ford is charging very big money for the new GT too.
I own a pretty nice automotive shop..
I do cheap oil changes...I lose plenty of money on almost all my oil changes, why?
I get new customers, it gets my name out there, and it's good p.r.
Same principle applies here
The last few days we've been doing extensive work on my new TA 2.0, and I've done a lot of disassembly on the car, starting from bottom on up..oh my gosh, this car is EPIC.
I'm a SFI road race car inspector and have licensed many a, proper race cars not to mention that I license cars for NASA at the big events they hold...I've owned and torn down to many cars to count.
Without any question in my mind,..looking at the car and the parts, machining, composites,name brand goodies, r and d, and the fact these cars are hand made here in the states, can I say that dodge sells these cars at a loss...must be a huge loss.
I do oil changes, they do cars...I'm good with that.
Maybe I'll buy a diesel ram next year...lol

[Nine Ball]

I own a pretty nice automotive shop..
I do cheap oil changes...I lose plenty of money on almost all my oil changes, why?
I get new customers, it gets my name out there, and it's good p.r.
Same principle applies here
The last few days we've been doing extensive work on my new TA 2.0, and I've done a lot of disassembly on the car, starting from bottom on up..oh my gosh, this car is EPIC.
I'm a SFI road race car inspector and have licensed many a, proper race cars not to mention that I license cars for NASA at the big events they hold...I've owned and torn down to many cars to count.
Without any question in my mind,..looking at the car and the parts, machining, composites,name brand goodies, r and d, and the fact these cars are hand made here in the states, can I say that dodge sells these cars at a loss...must be a huge loss.
I do oil changes, they do cars...I'm good with that.
Maybe I'll buy a diesel ram next year...lol

I work on a lot of cars also, in my shop. Many people who don't work on cars, or haven't been under them on a lift, don't fully appreciate how overbuilt the Viper is. When you put a Corvette on a lift next to a Viper on a lift and compare them from the underside, you'll understand why the Corvettes are cheaper. They are barely adequate for the power levels they are designed with. The Viper is like a tank, way overbuilt, way sturdy, and can handle a LOT more power before it folds. That is what makes these Vipers so durable, even when they are beat to hell on a track.

Porsche? Those things are dainty and delicate on a lift. Worse than a Corvette.

[Orange TA]

Uh, not quite. The exhaust system on the Gen Vs were actually improved over the Gen IV cars. There are a few guys on this forum who did the tune and then added the headers. There were very minimal gains from the headers (5-8whp). So you're not going to pick up 60HP on the exhaust side of a Gen V.


My biggest gripe of all performance manufactured cars (GM, MOPAR, FORD, FOREIGN) put Headers and a real performance exhaust system on the car from the factory!! I don't believe the EPA excuse for a reason to not due this. They spend enough $ on doing all other R&D on these cars they can tune the cars to no create Engine Light because of the O2 sensors. This is something that is easy enough to do and get the HP bump to 700 or damn close.

[slitherv10]

For some out here who are saying that HP numbers don't sell cars and that Hp doesn't matter and who needs more power.

I say one thing...

Dodge made the Challenger and the Charger for how many years?

Were they flying off the dealership floors? No

Were they the talk of the town in every mag? No

Why...why then is the Charger and Challenger the big talk of the town and flying off of dealerships floors and orders had to come to a stop? I will take a wild guess and say because of the HP...the 707 number. not the performance as it does not compete with the Viper. Yet....that 707 number still makes people talk about it, drool over it and buy it.


HP does matter and does sell cars....PERIOD. Proof is in the pudding. Its happening right in front of our eyes yet most here continue to doubt it. Don't believe in what you don't see. But you got to believe in what you do see. And what I see is a typical Charger challenger body that is 7 years old that with a simple 707Hp added to it, turned the car around and made it into something special. The same something special the GEN 1 and Gen 2 cars had back in the day.

[lochnessmonster]

I ask because, for example, VW was known to lose money on each Veyron, Toyota for each LF-A and so on. Many of the flagship vehicles for the larger brands can't be built profitably, and aren't, because they are essentially rolling PR. Ford is charging very big money for the new GT too.

I agree. I just purchased my Gen V 2013 GTS from the co-owner of a dealership in AB, Canada. It was his personal car. He told me what Dodge/SRT said to him when he ordered it in, they said, "Fine, we'll send you a Viper, but you are going to have to take 5 of these cars that you don't want as well....." He sold his car at an awesome price to me because he was interested in purchasing a 2016 based on his belief that it would have more power (whoops), knowing full well that his dealership would have to take on several cars that he doesn't want. The bottom line is, as you have pointed out, automotive manufacturers don't necessarily make money on the "halo car". They make money by selling the a lot of the 25K cars to offset their losses on cars like the LFA, and I'm fairly certain the Viper is in the same boat. I've thought about all of the people involved in the Viper build, and what their annual salaries must be, in addition to what it costs for the materials, the amount of time it takes to build a Viper, and the cost of keeping the assembly line running, and then I considered how many Vipers SRT/Dodge sells in a year. My guess is that they are losing huge on each Viper they sell.

Now, to address the OP's original question. My feeling is that the Viper will not be getting more power anytime soon. More power will require more development, and when the company had to drop the MSRP 15K last Fall just to get the car to sell, I'm not sure they will be able to put a whole lot more development into the car, which will result in a corresponding increase in MSRP, which, I believe, will put them right back in the same position they were in last Fall. What the Viper really needs is some good PR. I am sick of seeing the C7 plastered all over every magazine for a year with journalists raving about how incredible it is, only to hear that the engines are imploding, perhaps due to sub par oil filters, or that the car goes into "limp mode" after 3 laps around a track etc.... It took me 18 months to save the money for this car, and I am so grateful I didn't listen to the automotive journalists when making this decision. If the car had more power would it sell more? Perhaps. But what it really needs is for the automotive industry to get behind the car rather than bashing it, and complaining about wide door sills, or hot door sills, or offset pedals, or poor visibility etc. etc. The car is absolutely gorgeous, inside and out. It makes no apologies and no compromises: I respect that. I respect the car, and SRT, for building a car that says, "This is what I am, deal with it." I love my Viper. It has attitude and character. Dodge needs to build on those strengths, rather than trying to build more power. It has plenty of that. When you rarely get your tires up to temperature enough to prevent massive wheel spin, like me, more power is not what you are looking for.

[Disturbed]

I ask because, for example, VW was known to lose money on each Veyron, Toyota for each LF-A and so on. Many of the flagship vehicles for the larger brands can't be built profitably, and aren't, because they are essentially rolling PR. Ford is charging very big money for the new GT too.

Those are all platforms that where "all new". As I was explaining earlier the Vipers R&D has been done little by little. Ralph has said many times the car is profitable. After all it still has the same basic chassis and brakes from 2003. Put a Gen5 and a Gen3 on the lift and you will see very few changes. Engine, drivetrain and Venom controller are tweeked from Gen4. So for Gen5 the R&D went into the body and interior. That's why long time viper tweeker like myself who has seen the evolution was a bit disappointed with the Gen5. I had hoped for more but was let down.

If the is a Gen6, and I hope there is, I suspect that R&D will go into the Engine and Drivetrain. IMHOP they nailed the body and interior on the Gen5 and I'd like to see it carry over unchanged for Gen6. Viper generations are very short so a Gen6 if it happens will be on its way in the next 2 years maybe as long as 5years but I don't think it will be that long. gen3 and 4 where very short runs.

Gen1 (1992-1995/1996)
gen2 (1996 - 2002)
Gen3 (2003-2006)
Gen4 (2008-2010)
Gen5 (2013-?????)

[Coloviper]

100 HP bump like in 08' to a 150 HP bump to hit 800 HP (more than enough to give it the Dodge crown, which really is all most are insecure about as a halo car) forget if it is needed, as that is not the argument most are making.

Drop the FACTORY top, not hard to figure out it is a segment that will add significant sales. I still think Dodge is purposely waiting for 17' as 25th Annversary timeframe to make a splash. You know, it s 92' all over again but with twice the power.

Add a DCT for those buyers who can't, won't or just prefer to not work a clutch. To alienate that segment is unacceptable f you want sales.

Beyond these, that car is great and damn near perfect. Put the focus on the car's quality and build quality and remove glitches. Hearing of motor failures with low miles frightens people. Affects me when considering spending that amount of scratch. Lastly improve the dealer network issues.

I too never thought I would ever heard Viper owners saying "no, no more power, it is too much". What the hell happened here! That goes against everything ole Sneaky Pete stood for. In the end, it is NEVER enough, never, never, never. Ha! Ha!

[MalingatorGTS]

I too never thought I would ever heard Viper owners saying "no, no more power, it is too much". What the hell happened here! That goes against everything ole Sneaky Pete stood for. In the end, it is NEVER enough, never, never, never. Ha! Ha!

I wanted to clarify one of the things in my post and that I do agree with you. I have never owned a single car that I didn't modify from almost day one to gain power. I bought my GTS for the very reason that it was very built and put out way more power than a stock Gen2.

I was stating that as a car, the HC may have more power in the numbers but not on the surface due to design and weight. It is an amazing car for what it was designed to be!

I think ANY increase to the Viper power numbers would be a plus. It ultimately comes down to how well the marketing is done by Dodge to sell everyone on the idea that they still make an American, handmade, "supercar" that performs better or close to cars costing 3-4x as much!

[lochnessmonster]

I have to admit, my opinion on whether or not the car needs more power is a little skewed by the fact that I have only owned the car for two weeks, and my other two cars (Honda S2000, Subaru WRX STi) are down 400 hp and 200 hp respectively. So, when I get in the Viper and mash the throttle, and it feels like it is warping time and space, I am not looking for any more power.

But, as with all my previous toys (mostly sportbikes), after a while, you gain confidence and experience harnessing that power, so you want more. The problem I see with the Viper is, as I mentioned, I'm not certain the car is capable of putting any more power to the ground without a significant loss of traction unless one very key change is made. I am donning my flame retardant suit now...........AWD with torque vectoring etc. I'm all about "usable" power, not just more power for bragging rights or playing numbers games with Chevy and the Hellcat. At this point the car is fitted with Perelli PZero 355/30 19's on the rear and I'm spinning the rears up a fair amount on hard acceleration. At the end of the day, I don't think the Viper should ever be an AWD car. So I'm not really sure what the point of adding more power is? Is it possible to make a car that weighs a little over 3000lbs, that has just rear wheel drive, and put more than 700hp/650 ft/lbs. of torque to the ground under normal street operating conditions without just shredding your really expensive rubber? I'm not so sure.......

[ViperPete]

Prolly costs $230k to build a Viper.

New engine and transmission is gotta be 50k That's half the buggy right there.

[thetalonguy]

I am donning my flame retardant suit now...........AWD with torque vectoring etc.

I'll take an AWD viper... Need something more fun for the Winter...just want to still manually row the gears.

[lochnessmonster]

Yeah, an AWD Viper could be an interesting solution to the "tractable power" issue, but sports car purists might be chanting heresy :) I'd hate to see the Viper lose it's character (and fan base) since that is what I think a lot of owners and would-be owners really love about the car. It's hand built front mounted rear wheel drive platform is what separates it from the mass produced competition. Still, more power, AWD, and some sophisticated tech magic (read GTR) would really make it a force to be reckoned with. Not that it isn't already ;)

[Steve M]

Prolly costs $230k to build a Viper.

New engine and transmission is gotta be 50k That's half the buggy right there.

Maybe if you bought all of the parts individually private party.

[ViperPete]

Maybe if you bought all of the parts individually private party.

Order an engine/tranny new from dodge. $$$$$$$$$

[Steve M]

Order an engine/tranny new from dodge. $$$$$$$$$

Hence why I said private party - if you think Dodge is paying those prices, they aren't. Probably not even close.

[Snakebit10]

But, as with all my previous toys (mostly sportbikes), after a while, you gain confidence and experience harnessing that power, so you want more. The problem I see with the Viper is, as I mentioned, I'm not certain the car is capable of putting any more power to the ground without a significant loss of traction unless one very key change is made. I am donning my flame retardant suit now...........AWD with torque vectoring etc. I'm all about "usable" power, not just more power for bragging rights or playing numbers games with Chevy and the Hellcat. At this point the car is fitted with Perelli PZero 355/30 19's on the rear and I'm spinning the rears up a fair amount on hard acceleration. At the end of the day, I don't think the Viper should ever be an AWD car. So I'm not really sure what the point of adding more power is? Is it possible to make a car that weighs a little over 3000lbs, that has just rear wheel drive, and put more than 700hp/650 ft/lbs. of torque to the ground under normal street operating conditions without just shredding your really expensive rubber? I'm not so sure.......

The P1, Eggs, Pagani's, Laffers etc seem to be able to do just that with way more power going to their respective RWD chassis. Yes they are 1 mil plus but with some good engineering I'm sure Dodge can get it done with 700+hp and rwd if they put their minds to it. But then again not many engines make the torque the Viper does just off idle which may add a little hiccup to it putting down the power at higher levels but I do think it can be done.

[MBG2.0]

The funny thing is that even with 645 hp and a old school tranny, the 1/4 mile times and trap speeds arent that far off other super cars,....For Now.
The bigger problem i think will be when more of the cars start bringing turbo powertrians to the table, and because of the broad powerbands, run viper type times with 500-500 hp, like the new Benz is doing, and the new Ferraris will be doing shortly.

My 15 M3 with 425hp, wasn't that much slower then the my 2.0TA....not as fast, but not as much gap as 220hp on paper would have you think.

[lochnessmonster]

Yes, it's all about tractable power. Larger horsepower/torque figures don't result in a linear reduction in 0-60/1/4 mile times. If they did, we would have seen low 2 second 0-60 times, and 8's and 9's for the 1/4 mile from the 918, La Ferrari, etc. I suspect a graphical representation would highlight the diminishing returns beyond a certain hp/torque figure. So, the question, as I indicated in my previous post, is how much $$$$ is Dodge prepared to invest in the Viper to make more hp/torque, when the real world gains are so minimal? Bragging rights are great, but when the rubber meets the road, its all about 0-60, 1/4 mile, and lap times.

Quite honestly, I think Dodge needs to make the Viper more accessible to a larger customer base. Suggestions such as a drop top, or paddle shift are helpful, but, when I talk to people about my new car, the most common statement from my friends and colleagues is, "That car has way too much power for me...." So, when you are in the business of selling cars, does it really make sense to add more power to a car that is already intimidating a large part of the market such that they won't even consider buying the car? I don't think so.

This is where Chevy has excelled. It offers the base C7 at 450hp which is still pretty quick, but not so intimidating that it alienates people who don't feel confident in their ability to control a beast like the Viper. If anything, Dodge should make a version of the Viper topping 700hp/tq to keep the faithful coming back to the "trough", and a less powerful version that attracts new customers, who, as I also mentioned, will gain confidence and thirst for more power eventually. Will a less powerful offering offend some of the Viper faithful? Perhaps. But, a simultaneous offering that raises the bar should keep the pitchforks at bay. I don't like the idea of the Viper being mass produced, or for the Viper to become a common car, because the exclusivity and pride in ownership will be significantly diminished. At the same time, I want to be certain that Dodge and the SRT team can justify the building of our beloved Viper into the distant future. Thoughts?

[commandomatt]

Yes, it's all about tractable power. Larger horsepower/torque figures don't result in a linear reduction in 0-60/1/4 mile times. If they did, we would have seen low 2 second 0-60 times, and 8's and 9's for the 1/4 mile from the 918, La Ferrari, etc. I suspect a graphical representation would highlight the diminishing returns beyond a certain hp/torque figure. So, the question, as I indicated in my previous post, is how much $$$$ is Dodge prepared to invest in the Viper to make more hp/torque, when the real world gains are so minimal? Bragging rights are great, but when the rubber meets the road, its all about 0-60, 1/4 mile, and lap times.

Quite honestly, I think Dodge needs to make the Viper more accessible to a larger customer base. Suggestions such as a drop top, or paddle shift are helpful, but, when I talk to people about my new car, the most common statement from my friends and colleagues is, "That car has way too much power for me...." So, when you are in the business of selling cars, does it really make sense to add more power to a car that is already intimidating a large part of the market such that they won't even consider buying the car? I don't think so.

This is where Chevy has excelled. It offers the base C7 at 450hp which is still pretty quick, but not so intimidating that it alienates people who don't feel confident in their ability to control a beast like the Viper. If anything, Dodge should make a version of the Viper topping 700hp/tq to keep the faithful coming back to the "trough", and a less powerful version that attracts new customers, who, as I also mentioned, will gain confidence and thirst for more power eventually. Will a less powerful offering offend some of the Viper faithful? Perhaps. But, a simultaneous offering that raises the bar should keep the pitchforks at bay. I don't like the idea of the Viper being mass produced, or for the Viper to become a common car, because the exclusivity and pride in ownership will be significantly diminished. At the same time, I want to be certain that Dodge and the SRT team can justify the building of our beloved Viper into the distant future. Thoughts?

Thoughts ??....the first thought that came to mind when reading your post is that you want to cut the balls of the Viper we have grown to Love. Take the wild horse and turn it into something that will work at the petting zoo.

Really don't care why the Corvette is successful. There is nothing about that car that I think Dodge should take note of. If Dodge turned the Viper program into something like what GM does with Vette, I for one would start looking for another car. I don't want something that is detuned and made friendly and forgiving so everyone that drives it will feel comfortable. I really like the fact that the car is somewhat unpredictable and a little scary. There are plenty of cars....performance cars, that make you feel safe. The Viper is unique and should stay that way as long as possible.

Does it need more HP ?....No. Do I want it to have more HP....YES.

If Dodge is satisfied with a relatively low production run annually, keep it that way. We want to ensure that the car remains in production but lets leave it at a low, limited production level. Its hand built !!....how many more could be made in a year without compromising that ?

Most everything in this world is getting regulated and made so that a broader group of people will be accepting. Even though the Viper has been made a bit friendlier with the Gen V it is still a car that refuses to 'fit into the box' that you want to put it in.

This is the main reason I own Vipers and plan to own more in the future

[Steve M]

Thoughts ??....the first thought that came to mind when reading your post is that you want to cut the balls of the Viper we have grown to Love. Take the wild horse and turn it into something that will work at the petting zoo.

Really don't care why the Corvette is successful. There is nothing about that car that I think Dodge should take note of. If Dodge turned the Viper program into something like what GM does with Vette, I for one would start looking for another car. I don't want something that is detuned and made friendly and forgiving so everyone that drives it will feel comfortable. I really like the fact that the car is somewhat unpredictable and a little scary. There are plenty of cars....performance cars, that make you feel safe. The Viper is unique and should stay that way as long as possible.

Does it need more HP ?....No. Do I want it to have more HP....YES.

If Dodge is satisfied with a relatively low production run annually, keep it that way. We want to ensure that the car remains in production but lets leave it at a low, limited production level. Its hand built !!....how many more could be made in a year without compromising that ?

Most everything in this world is getting regulated and made so that a broader group of people will be accepting. Even though the Viper has been made a bit friendlier with the Gen V it is still a car that refuses to 'fit into the box' that you want to put it in.

This is the main reason I own Vipers and plan to own more in the future

Couldn't agree more.

[lochnessmonster]

Thoughts ??....the first thought that came to mind when reading your post is that you want to cut the balls of the Viper we have grown to Love. Take the wild horse and turn it into something that will work at the petting zoo.

Really don't care why the Corvette is successful. There is nothing about that car that I think Dodge should take note of. If Dodge turned the Viper program into something like what GM does with Vette, I for one would start looking for another car. I don't want something that is detuned and made friendly and forgiving so everyone that drives it will feel comfortable. I really like the fact that the car is somewhat unpredictable and a little scary. There are plenty of cars....performance cars, that make you feel safe. The Viper is unique and should stay that way as long as possible.

Does it need more HP ?....No. Do I want it to have more HP....YES.

If Dodge is satisfied with a relatively low production run annually, keep it that way. We want to ensure that the car remains in production but lets leave it at a low, limited production level. Its hand built !!....how many more could be made in a year without compromising that ?

Most everything in this world is getting regulated and made so that a broader group of people will be accepting. Even though the Viper has been made a bit friendlier with the Gen V it is still a car that refuses to 'fit into the box' that you want to put it in.

This is the main reason I own Vipers and plan to own more in the future

Did you read my whole post? "Cut the balls off the Viper we have grown to love." No, actually, if you read all of my post, you'd realize that I am not saying that at all. What I am saying is, provide a Viper that has "more balls" and provide a Viper that has "less balls". You seem to have latched onto the "less balls" idea, grabbed your "pitchfork" as I predicted, and completely ignored everything else I said in my post.

And you bring up my point exactly, "If Dodge is satisfied with a relatively low production run annually, keep it that way." Do you really think they are happy with a "low production run"? They are in the business of selling cars aren't they? Do you think their decision to knock 15K off the MSRP last fall in an effort to boost abysmal sales numbers supports that argument? Really? Do you think that Dodge's decision to keep the Viper at 645hp for 2016 supports that argument? Please. They are not happy with the sales numbers. Period. I think that is fairly obvious. I want to see this car survive as it is, but how is that achieved? By adding more power? That, to me, seems like a very simplistic approach to a very complex problem. Do I want to see this car be anything like the Corvette? No. I wouldn't have just shelled out 10's of thousands of dollars if that's what I wanted. I would have just bought a Corvette.

The OP's original question is, "When will the Viper get more power?". My point is, when it is economically viable. Period. It isn't economically viable right now, that is why the 2016 model doesn't have more power. Do I want the Viper to remain just as it is, with more power. Sure. Do I think it's a smart business move by Dodge. No, I don't, and neither does Dodge.

[commandomatt]

Did you read my whole post? "Cut the balls off the Viper we have grown to love." No, actually, if you read all of my post, you'd realize that I am not saying that at all. What I am saying is, provide a Viper that has "more balls" and provide a Viper that has "less balls". You seem to have latched onto the "less balls" idea, grabbed your "pitchfork" as I predicted, and completely ignored everything else I said in my post.

And you bring up my point exactly, "If Dodge is satisfied with a relatively low production run annually, keep it that way." Do you really think they are happy with a "low production run"? They are in the business of selling cars aren't they? Do you think their decision to knock 15K off the MSRP last fall in an effort to boost abysmal sales numbers supports that argument? Really? Do you think that Dodge's decision to keep the Viper at 645hp for 2016 supports that argument? Please. They are not happy with the sales numbers. Period. I think that is fairly obvious. I want to see this car survive as it is, but how is that achieved? By adding more power? That, to me, seems like a very simplistic approach to a very complex problem. Do I want to see this car be anything like the Corvette? No. I wouldn't have just shelled out 10's of thousands of dollars if that's what I wanted. I would have just bought a Corvette.

The OP's original question is, "When will the Viper get more power?". My point is, when it is economically viable. Period. It isn't economically viable right now, that is why the 2016 model doesn't have more power. Do I want the Viper to remain just as it is, with more power. Sure. Do I think it's a smart business move by Dodge. No, I don't, and neither does Dodge.

I did read your entire post. By introducing a 'detuned and friendlier' model, you would in fact loose the identity of the Viper. You bring up the Vette as a successful business model. One of the most often mentioned turn offs from the Viper crowd about the Vette is that you cant tell the difference between a base model and top of the line. Building the soft Viper you are suggesting, would cause the same issue. Besides....how will you make it friendlier ? Smaller engine....less power, automatic, easier entry, more interior room ? Yes, you are cutting the balls off the car ! How much would it cost to design this other model and would that money not be better spent making what we have in front of us, even better (and Yes...possibly more powerful) ? Your colleagues that consider it to much will most likely be better of with a different kind of car. The Viper will never be for them.

I agree that Dodge probably want to see a small increase in sales but why don't you look at what it took to make the Viper last 20+ years ? Extremely limited production was enough to sustain the run. Couple of thousand a year. So even though they would like to see an increase, we are probably talking in the 100's to get back to what historically have worked.....not several thousand.

My turn to ask 'Really' !! Do you really think it would be possible to increase the production much more than that and retain the hand built status ? Do you really think it would be possible without introducing more automation ? Would they be able to keep the quality control (which has been questioned at times) ? Do you really think they could keep the overall quality and 'built like a tank' status ? How about Prefix ......are they ready to paint another 1000 + cars or are we going to offer a lesser paint quality by automating the process ?

Dodge is certainly in business to sell cars. Not Vipers though. This is our Halo car and while it needs to retain that status and keep people dreaming about it....Dodge needs to focus on selling cars they will make money on.....lots of money. The Viper will never, no matter what they do to it, make them much profit (if any). Focus on selling the mass produced cars...then throw some funds towards the Viper to keep it what it is.

You asked for thoughts.....I just gave you mine

[ViperPete]

Id liken the Viper to the original Cobra.

Low production. Intimidating. Deathly. Shelby made a 289 and the 427. What do people remember/want? The 427.

Dodge doesn't need to add any more power to "all" of them, only make available power adders for those that want it.

[Clutch2014]

Honestly, there are only a few hard and fast rules Dodge should stick to with the Viper.

- It must be a V10.
- It must be front-engined, RWD.
- It must be offered with a manual, even if there is an option for paddle-shifted gearboxes.

Beyond that, I'd be cool with seeing a smaller displacement engine being offered for the car. I think it would be great to see, honestly. Maybe not a 5.2 like in the Audi R8 or the Huracan, but I could see a 6.2 or something along those lines just to mess with Chevy.

[ACRucrazy]

Honestly, there are only a few hard and fast rules Dodge should stick to with the Viper.

*THINGS AND STUFF

Beyond that, I'd be cool with seeing a smaller displacement engine being offered for the car. I think it would be great to see, honestly. Maybe not a 5.2 like in the Audi R8 or the Huracan, but I could see a 6.2 or something along those lines just to mess with Chevy.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/05/nope.gif

[Clutch2014]

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/05/nope.gif

Why not?

I'm a huge fan of the Viper. Love the current engine that's in there now. But if for no other reason than a matter of sustainability, wouldn't a smaller displacement motor be better?

[ACRucrazy]

Why not?

I'm a huge fan of the Viper. Love the current engine that's in there now. But if for no other reason than a matter of sustainability, wouldn't a smaller displacement motor be better?

Nope. Make a different car if you are going to start taking away what makes a Viper a Viper. Which is big cubes, gobs of low end torque, a manual and no excuses.
Call the new model Stryker for all I care.

[ViperSmith]

Nope. Make a different car if you are going to start taking away what makes a Viper a Viper. Which is big cubes, gobs of low end torque, a manual and no excuses.
Call the new model Stryker for all I care.

lol, like they'll abandon the Viper name because some feel it should have very specific features to be a Viper.

those with the most opinions of what a viper should be aren't buying new, so why should dodge care at all what they think?

[ACRucrazy]

Like Dodge will step down the V10 to a 5 or 6 liter in the Viper.

[Chorps]

Nope. Make a different car if you are going to start taking away what makes a Viper a Viper. Which is big cubes, gobs of low end torque, a manual and no excuses.
Call the new model Stryker for all I care.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/chrysler-firepower-first-drive-review

http://www.amcarguide.com/wp-content/gallery/2005-firepower-concept/2005-chrysler-firepower-concept-03.jpg

[ACRucrazy]

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/chrysler-firepower-first-drive-review

http://www.amcarguide.com/wp-content/gallery/2005-firepower-concept/2005-chrysler-firepower-concept-03.jpg

Saw the Firepower at Walter P. Chrysler Museum last year. Very cool. (unlike my potato phone camera)

https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10341490_10152281188542643_2761787025555133799_n.j pg?oh=18ef7eaf96182a6cc180796b071665fb&oe=56020076

[Clutch2014]

Except...what excuses would you be making with a smaller engine? It's not like the other cars with V10s are exactly hurting for torque or power. And I didn't advocate suddenly making the car "softer" in any way. Simply a lower-displacement motor.

[Junkie]

Power is easy, I just hope they don't put a damn DCT in it.

[Clutch2014]

I honestly wouldn't give a flip if they did...

...provided a six-speed Tremec TR6060 is always on the list and the base option.

[commandomatt]

those with the most opinions of what a viper should be aren't buying new, so why should dodge care at all what they think?

You make a lot of ignorant comments but this statement is one of your top 10 for sure.

So you know this to be true .......because ?????

[MBG2.0]

Power is easy, I just hope they don't put a damn DCT in it.
Amen..
After owning three Dct equipped sports cars..and being a die hard shift guy before, I couldn't agree more.
Dct gearboxes shift way faster, lose less power to the wheels, help many drivers get way faster lap times ( if you like that sorts thing).

I still love my TA though.

[ViperSmith]

You make a lot of ignorant comments but this statement is one of your top 10 for sure.

So you know this to be true .......because ?????

Car has virtually everything everyone griped about and still lots of unsold cars. You can mod it anyway you want now. Now people are complaining there are too many options.

Many who had gripes have bought - more power to them.

[Steve M]

Except...what excuses would you be making with a smaller engine? It's not like the other cars with V10s are exactly hurting for torque or power. And I didn't advocate suddenly making the car "softer" in any way. Simply a lower-displacement motor.

Do you know what displacement buys you? Torque. Do you know what those exotics with smaller displacement V-10s lack? Torque. That's why they have to spin them to the moon to get any sort of respectable power out of them.

It may very well be the way of the future, but when they say there's no replacement for displacement, there's a reason.

[dasvolk]

I have owned a number of different performance vehicles over the years, and one thing I've learned is that making lots more power is not the same thing as engineering a complete platform around a powerplant. I say the Viper is powerful enough because I've learned that if you want a car to have balance, you have to engineer around the power.

The discussion turning to AWD and tractable power is interesting to me, because then you guys are arriving at another juncture in vehicle engineering - working around vehicle design. I believe this to be a slippery slope and I explained this to my friend the other day using the 911 Turbo as an example. In the early days, it was the "Widow maker" with its sudden power delivery, pendulum weight shift effect, and stout suspension. Purists loved it, respected it, and "everyone else" crashed it or scared themselves shitless. So Porsche progressively made it softer, easier, and more predictable to the point where some poor engineer had to create a magnetorheological engine mount because the dentists that bought them couldn't deal with a little NVH.

Viper could suffer a similar fate. I owned successive BMW M3's until BMW pussified the formula to satisfy a larger customer base and emissions regulations. Same thing happened to Porsche, and look what happened to the values of the old cars as the new ones got softer. Viper's sales issues won't be rectified with 1000hp or a redesign. The car's capable of doing incredible things as-is and I believe it's the best performance to dollar of any car on sale today. If FCA can't capitalize on that then that's their fault, not the car's design.

[Clutch2014]

Do you know what displacement buys you? Torque. Do you know what those exotics with smaller displacement V-10s lack? Torque. That's why they have to spin them to the moon to get any sort of respectable power out of them.

It may very well be the way of the future, but when they say there's no replacement for displacement, there's a reason.

Thanks for the Auto Enthusiast 101 refresher. :/

Look, the Corvette, with a 6.2 liter V8, isn't hurting for torque. The base model has 465 lb.-ft of it to push 455 HP along. So what could a 6.2 V10 do? All motor, at that?

[Shooter]

Thanks for the Auto Enthusiast 101 refresher. :/

Look, the Corvette, with a 6.2 liter V8, isn't hurting for torque. The base model has 465 lb.-ft of it to push 455 HP along. So what could a 6.2 V10 do? All motor, at that?

I think you'll be much happier here. http://www.nationalcorvetteowners.com Run along now. We like our 8.4 liter V10.

[Clutch2014]

I think you'll be much happier here. http://www.nationalcorvetteowners.com Run along now. We like our 8.4 liter V10.

10843

Really?

I...I don't know what to say. I seriously don't. And unfortunately, short of videotaping a statement from my father describing how much I love the Viper and posting it on YouTube, I don't know how to convey just how much of a Viper fan I am. I'm a nut, really, when it comes to this car (and that's all I'm going to say on the subject for now, because, hell, it's not like using any more words would convince you).

In fact...yeah. I'm not going to waste any more words on what I really want to say, because I'm fairly certain I'll get banned if I do.

So...here's the hypothetical. A Gen V Viper. The car we all know and love - front-engine, rear-wheel-drive, Tremec TR6060 six-speed manual transmission, Brembo brakes, and suspension adjustable for street or track. JUST with a 6.2 liter V10 instead of the 8.4. And, for giggles, make it direct-injected.

Would it be any less of a Viper than what we have now? Or would it be better - faster, even?

[Coloviper]

I think that is funny! All the guys who are really bitching are mostly all "Enthusiasts". New owners or not, I am just saying. Lots of value in being a VOA member with a low price of entry but no takers. Does this sound familiar to the situation at Dodge with the Viper. In the end, you can not appease everyone. Stryker knows this and he is what he is.

[Steve M]

Thanks for the Auto Enthusiast 101 refresher. :/

Look, the Corvette, with a 6.2 liter V8, isn't hurting for torque. The base model has 465 lb.-ft of it to push 455 HP along. So what could a 6.2 V10 do? All motor, at that?

Time for a math lesson: 600 > 465.

No need to thank me...it's the same lesson the Viper has been teaching the rest of the world since 1992. Even the oldest example of a Viper put out 465 lb-ft of torque, and that was way back in 1992, likely before you were even born.

[SA Heat]

Everyone is so focused on HP numbers. They are meaningless. Its all power to weight and how the power is transferred to the pavement. (I have raced in 170hp open wheel cars that would kick a Vipers butt)
Hell my race car is 355hp to the wheels/ 2,900lbs and will destroy my ACR on the track

Its all about a complete package: Power to weight, chassis set up, suspension, brakes

It's amazing how many people do not understand how this works.

[Clutch2014]

Time for a math lesson: 600 > 465.

No need to thank me...it's the same lesson the Viper has been teaching the rest of the world since 1992. Even the oldest example of a Viper put out 465 lb-ft of torque, and that was way back in 1992, likely before you were even born.

1986. I'm 29 years old.

Does anyone want to actually answer the question, or are you content with shooting off half-assed insults?

[ACRucrazy]

1986. I'm 29 years old.

Does anyone want to actually answer the question, or are you content with shooting off half-assed insults?

The answer to your question is less. Less torque than the current 8.4 engine. And less at a higher RPM.

[ViperPete]

I think a mod needs to clean up this thread.

[lochnessmonster]

I did read your entire post. By introducing a 'detuned and friendlier' model, you would in fact loose the identity of the Viper. You bring up the Vette as a successful business model. One of the most often mentioned turn offs from the Viper crowd about the Vette is that you cant tell the difference between a base model and top of the line. Building the soft Viper you are suggesting, would cause the same issue. Besides....how will you make it friendlier ? Smaller engine....less power, automatic, easier entry, more interior room ? Yes, you are cutting the balls off the car ! How much would it cost to design this other model and would that money not be better spent making what we have in front of us, even better (and Yes...possibly more powerful) ? Your colleagues that consider it to much will most likely be better of with a different kind of car. The Viper will never be for them.

I agree that Dodge probably want to see a small increase in sales but why don't you look at what it took to make the Viper last 20+ years ? Extremely limited production was enough to sustain the run. Couple of thousand a year. So even though they would like to see an increase, we are probably talking in the 100's to get back to what historically have worked.....not several thousand.

My turn to ask 'Really' !! Do you really think it would be possible to increase the production much more than that and retain the hand built status ? Do you really think it would be possible without introducing more automation ? Would they be able to keep the quality control (which has been questioned at times) ? Do you really think they could keep the overall quality and 'built like a tank' status ? How about Prefix ......are they ready to paint another 1000 + cars or are we going to offer a lesser paint quality by automating the process ?

Dodge is certainly in business to sell cars. Not Vipers though. This is our Halo car and while it needs to retain that status and keep people dreaming about it....Dodge needs to focus on selling cars they will make money on.....lots of money. The Viper will never, no matter what they do to it, make them much profit (if any). Focus on selling the mass produced cars...then throw some funds towards the Viper to keep it what it is.

You asked for thoughts.....I just gave you mine

All good points, some of which I made in my post. "Halo" car or not, Dodge wants to sell more of them. How is that best achieved while retaining the things we love about the Viper? The OP's original question was, "When will the Viper get more power." I stand by my position: when it's economically viable. How do you make the Viper more economically viable? Thankfully, that isn't a decision I have to make. Both Ferrari and Lamborghini provide "entry level" cars, yet they manage to retain their cache. Why can't Dodge do this? But, as you say, maybe they don't have to do this. If they can sell enough Caravans and Trucks, they don't have to, which would be great for us, because despite my comments, the last thing I want to see is a diluted Viper. I love the car just the way it is. I just hope I get the opportunity to buy the next one, if there is a next one...........

[lochnessmonster]

I have owned a number of different performance vehicles over the years, and one thing I've learned is that making lots more power is not the same thing as engineering a complete platform around a powerplant. I say the Viper is powerful enough because I've learned that if you want a car to have balance, you have to engineer around the power.

The discussion turning to AWD and tractable power is interesting to me, because then you guys are arriving at another juncture in vehicle engineering - working around vehicle design. I believe this to be a slippery slope and I explained this to my friend the other day using the 911 Turbo as an example. In the early days, it was the "Widow maker" with its sudden power delivery, pendulum weight shift effect, and stout suspension. Purists loved it, respected it, and "everyone else" crashed it or scared themselves shitless. So Porsche progressively made it softer, easier, and more predictable to the point where some poor engineer had to create a magnetorheological engine mount because the dentists that bought them couldn't deal with a little NVH.

Viper could suffer a similar fate. I owned successive BMW M3's until BMW pussified the formula to satisfy a larger customer base and emissions regulations. Same thing happened to Porsche, and look what happened to the values of the old cars as the new ones got softer. Viper's sales issues won't be rectified with 1000hp or a redesign. The car's capable of doing incredible things as-is and I believe it's the best performance to dollar of any car on sale today. If FCA can't capitalize on that then that's their fault, not the car's design.

This^^^^^^^^ I agree completely.

[Steve M]

1986. I'm 29 years old.

Does anyone want to actually answer the question, or are you content with shooting off half-assed insults?

I did answer your question. The 2015 Viper with an 8.4L naturally aspirated V-10 produces 600 lb-ft of torque. The 2015 Corvette with the 6.2L naturally aspirated LT1 V-8 produces 460 lb-ft of torque. Hence 600 > 460.

Now let's look at a more exotic V-10 - the Audi R8. That's a 5.2L V-10 that produces 398 lb-ft of torque at 6,500 RPMs. The Viper's stock rev limit is 6,400 RPMs. And in case you lost count, 600 > 398.

Lower displacement engines can put out decent HP, but you have to spin them to the moon to do so. That's because they lack torque. I'm just not sure how else I can explain it.

The Viper V-10, like it or not, is an icon. The recipe of huge displacement and massive torque is hard to beat. The Corvette team slapped a blower on their 6.2L engine and look what that bought them...added heat and weight that makes the car useless after a few hard laps around a race track. Sweet. Oh, but it does produce 650 lb-ft of torque.

Now do you have any actual questions?

[Clutch2014]

I did answer your question. The 2015 Viper with an 8.4L naturally aspirated V-10 produces 600 lb-ft of torque. The 2015 Corvette with the 6.2L naturally aspirated LT1 V-8 produces 460 lb-ft of torque. Hence 600 > 460.

Now let's look at a more exotic V-10 - the Audi R8. That's a 5.2L V-10 that produces 398 lb-ft of torque at 6,500 RPMs. The Viper's stock rev limit is 6,400 RPMs. And in case you lost count, 600 > 398.

Lower displacement engines can put out decent HP, but you have to spin them to the moon to do so. That's because they lack torque. I'm just not sure how else I can explain it.

The Viper V-10, like it or not, is an icon. The recipe of huge displacement and massive torque is hard to beat. The Corvette team slapped a blower on their 6.2L engine and look what that bought them...added heat and weight that makes the car useless after a few hard laps around a race track. Sweet. Oh, but it does produce 650 lb-ft of torque.

Now do you have any actual questions?

The Audi/Lambo V10 is engineered for high revs. The Viper and Vette are engineered for low-end torque. Both of the latter cars, when dynoed by Edmunds, saw all of their torque show up in the same 2000-5000 rpm range.

My questions still stand. What would a Viper with a 6.2L V10 do? Would it still be a Viper? Could it be better, since the smaller motor could make for a lighter package?

And for the love of God, what is it with the hive mentality? I saw it in my days of lurking on the VCA forums, and now I'm seeing it here.

[ACRucrazy]

My questions still stand. What would a Viper with a 6.2L V10 do? Would it still be a Viper? Could it be better, since the smaller motor could make for a lighter package?

It would make less power and torque than a Viper with an 8.4L. No, it would not do.

[Clutch2014]

It would make less power and torque than a Viper with an 8.4L. No, it would not do.

Even direct injected?

[lochnessmonster]

I was just out playing tennis with my son, and came up with the best solution yet.

As I recall, I think a reduction of a pound results in an effective increase in the neighbourhood of 7hp? I know how I could effectively add about 200hp to my Viper. But it's gonna take a lot more effort on my part :(

[VENOM V]

Even direct injected?


It would make less power and torque than a Viper with an 8.4L. No, it would not do.

Agreed. More simple math: If you took the 8.4L and reduced it's size, assuming it kept the same HP to liter ratio:

645 HP X 6.2L / 8.4L = 476 HP.

Two things this tells us:

1. The Vette puts out only 455 HP even with direct injection, so the Viper's engine is more efficient than the Vette's direct-injected power plant. Impressive considering that it also meets emissions.

2. No one is going to be happy with a 476 HP Viper.

137 posts and this thread has not really produced anything of merit, not surprised. Just like all the "I wish the Viper had more HP" threads.

[Clutch2014]

Agreed. More simple math: If you took the 8.4L and reduced it's size, assuming it kept the same HP to liter ratio:

645 HP X 6.2L / 8.4L = 476 HP.

Two things this tells us:

1. The Vette puts out only 455 HP even with direct injection, so the Viper's engine is more efficient than the Vette's direct-injected power plant. Impressive considering that it also meets emissions.

2. No one is going to be happy with a 476 HP Viper.

137 posts and this thread has not really produced anything of merit, not surprised. Just like all the "I wish the Viper had more HP" threads.

Well, at least your answer didn't come dripping with condescension. So thanks for that. And I do agree - no one would be happy with a 476 HP Viper.

Now, with that in mind, let me just ask this (and anyone can answer...if they don't want to be arrogant). Assume that Dodge eventually has to retire the 8.4. They don't want to retire or kill the Viper - just, for whatever reason down the road, it's time for a new powerplant.

What do you think could go in the car that will keep the Viper spirit? What would keep it as that dark-horse, scene-stealing American powerhouse of a halo car in the future?

[lochnessmonster]

I don't think it's possible to retire the 8.4 and retain the image and character of the car. It's the V10 8.4 litre engine that makes the car so special. It's the one thing everyone asks me about, and the one thing they are most impressed with. I can talk carbon fibre hood, roof, decklid, hydroformed aluminium panels, and Sabelt seats all day long as their eyes glaze over. But when I mention 8.4 litres of displacement and 640hp/600 ft./lbs. people smile, laugh, or just shake their heads and say "Wow." If they have to retire the engine, I think they will have to retire the car.

[Steve M]

The Audi/Lambo V10 is engineered for high revs. The Viper and Vette are engineered for low-end torque. Both of the latter cars, when dynoed by Edmunds, saw all of their torque show up in the same 2000-5000 rpm range.

My questions still stand. What would a Viper with a 6.2L V10 do? Would it still be a Viper? Could it be better, since the smaller motor could make for a lighter package?

And for the love of God, what is it with the hive mentality? I saw it in my days of lurking on the VCA forums, and now I'm seeing it here.

My answer still stands: it would produce less torque.

Smaller displacement also does not necessarily mean a smaller package either...if you want an example of that, look no further than the old 4.6L Mustang engine vs. the small block 5.7L Chevy LS1. Packaging is a large concern with the Viper...there's only so much room in the engine bay width-wise to fit the motor. A physically larger DOHC V-10 would require a massive rework of the frame and body, and isn't feasible at this point for the Viper.

The large displacement, naturally aspirated engine will likely not be able to continue due to EPA regulations. The answer IMO isn't a smaller displacement, higher revving V-10...it's likely smaller displacement with forced induction, but that brings a lot of heat along with it, and that would need to be addressed. The C7ZO6 did a piss poor job of this one, so if Dodge goes this way, hopefully they get it right.

As for your last question: on the surface, you sound like a troll. Every forum has them, and this one is no different. I'm trying to be as polite as possible, but you are making it very difficult. If you have evidence to back up your claims, present it. Otherwise, move on.

[viper_eddie]

Why do so many people keep saying the EPA will eventually lead to the current engine not being feasible anymore?

Aren't the new CAFE standards an average for the whole company? I don't think 1500 Vipers or whatever they make a year is enough to upset the hundreds of thousands of other cars they make.

Am I missing something?

[lochnessmonster]

Why do so many people keep saying the EPA will eventually lead to the current engine not being feasible anymore?

Aren't the new CAFE standards an average for the whole company? I don't think 1500 Vipers or whatever they make a year is enough to upset the hundreds of thousands of other cars they make.

Am I missing something?

Good point. I'd be interested to hear more about this.

[Chorps]

Why do so many people keep saying the EPA will eventually lead to the current engine not being feasible anymore?

Aren't the new CAFE standards an average for the whole company? I don't think 1500 Vipers or whatever they make a year is enough to upset the hundreds of thousands of other cars they make.

Am I missing something?

$55 for each mpg that is missed multiplied by each vehicle sold.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/CAFE_Fuel_Economy_vs_Model_Year_and_Footprint_with _2017-2022_Proposals.png

The Viper is about 43 sq ft. and is 15mpg blended. Granted, only 1500 cars per year isn't as big a concern as 260k gas swilling trucks per year, but fine values will just keep ballooning as the standard gets harder to meet every year.

This is why all manufacturers are going smaller displacement with forced induction. In the real world, the new designs may be a wash or even less efficient (under load) than outgoing large displacement non FI motors, but CAFE and EPA rules are basically setting themselves up to be gamed. If they changed the testing to be more indicative of real world driving, I doubt that you'd see as much investment in small displacement forced induction motors.

Some of the tech works quite well (cylinder deactivation, kinetic energy recovery etc.) but the threat of heavy fines are pushing some of the car makers to do some pretty outrageous things that aren't really benefitting the customer.

http://news.fleetcarma.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/CAFE-MPG-Standards-1978-to-2025.png

[lochnessmonster]

So according to my math, that's a $2,887,500 hit approximately per year right now based on 1500 sales. Interesting. Thanx for the post.

[HANKFAN]

Here is the 9.0L block. Dick Winkles also said they are also working on a 10L block.

850HP NA should not be a problem

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b398/skyy406/Viper%20Plant/IMG_0937_zpsmuteqb8w.jpg

Would be curious to know what Arrows plans are for these blocks.

[Clutch2014]

My answer still stands: it would produce less torque.

Smaller displacement also does not necessarily mean a smaller package either...if you want an example of that, look no further than the old 4.6L Mustang engine vs. the small block 5.7L Chevy LS1. Packaging is a large concern with the Viper...there's only so much room in the engine bay width-wise to fit the motor. A physically larger DOHC V-10 would require a massive rework of the frame and body, and isn't feasible at this point for the Viper.

The large displacement, naturally aspirated engine will likely not be able to continue due to EPA regulations. The answer IMO isn't a smaller displacement, higher revving V-10...it's likely smaller displacement with forced induction, but that brings a lot of heat along with it, and that would need to be addressed. The C7ZO6 did a piss poor job of this one, so if Dodge goes this way, hopefully they get it right.

As for your last question: on the surface, you sound like a troll. Every forum has them, and this one is no different. I'm trying to be as polite as possible, but you are making it very difficult. If you have evidence to back up your claims, present it. Otherwise, move on.

I'm making it difficult? How?

Please, I want to hear this.

[Steve M]

I'm making it difficult? How?

Please, I want to hear this.

Well at least you stopped asking the same question over and over again, so that's a start.


Why do so many people keep saying the EPA will eventually lead to the current engine not being feasible anymore?

Aren't the new CAFE standards an average for the whole company? I don't think 1500 Vipers or whatever they make a year is enough to upset the hundreds of thousands of other cars they make.

Am I missing something?

It's not just CAFE, it's the clamping down they appear to be doing on emissions in general. Por ejemplo, if you look at the timing tables between the Gen 4 and Gen 5 cars, the Gen 5 stock calibration took a metric shit-ton of timing out of idle and midrange. I'd highly doubt it was done for performance reasons, so I can only guess it was done for emissions purposes.

[darbgnik]

Honestly, there are only a few hard and fast rules Dodge should stick to with the Viper.

- It must be a V10.
- It must be front-engined, RWD.
- It must be offered with a manual, even if there is an option for paddle-shifted gearboxes.

Beyond that, I'd be cool with seeing a smaller displacement engine being offered for the car. I think it would be great to see, honestly. Maybe not a 5.2 like in the Audi R8 or the Huracan, but I could see a 6.2 or something along those lines just to mess with Chevy.

I own a Lamborghini V10, and the Viper V10, their personalities couldn't be any more different, and the Viper is so much more gratifying to drive. The torque is where it's at, it's stupid and awesome, at the same time. The only area the Lamborghini V10 outshines the Viper is the music...........

Any move towards lower displacement, and higher RPM horsepower would be less Viper. For most owners, a definite step in the wrong direction. And yes, a 6.2 would be a move in this direction............

[Disturbed]

At this time, I think the best way for the Viper to live on is to go Smaller ci and add FI (426ci with twin turbos please). With a good TT system you will not miss the ci and and if done right will have just as much low end grunt but you will really feel it in the mid-range (2000-4000rpm). Top end could have a nasty punch to it. I feel that the aftermarket would come back esp when it's just bolt-ons away from 1000hp. It really is a win-win. Hellcats don't seem to suffer at the track the way the Zo6 does. Both 6.2L SCd V8's. Seems
Like dodge has no issues selling hellcats, matter of fact, they can't build enough of them.

I agree with the prev poster about a few basic things that keeps the viper what it is. v10,6sp, rwd. The word Brutal and raw should be the 1st things that comes to mind when you drive a Viper. To stay on top and to help increase sells a DCT should be in the cards. If that's the case DCT would out sell the 6sp easily. It would also bring a lot of new blood to the viper world.

V10TT, DCT,RWD and a Targa top, I'm in for Gen6.

[lochnessmonster]

I own a Lamborghini V10, and the Viper V10, their personalities couldn't be any more different, and the Viper is so much more gratifying to drive. The torque is where it's at, it's stupid and awesome, at the same time. The only area the Lamborghini V10 outshines the Viper is the music...........

Any move towards lower displacement, and higher RPM horsepower would be less Viper. For most owners, a definite step in the wrong direction. And yes, a 6.2 would be a move in this direction............

I bought my GTS largely based on comments like this. In fact, I was very close to giving you a call Brad about your blue Gallardo for sale (nice looking car), but after having read the comments on the Lamborghini forum from other Gallardo owners, I went with a Viper. I was really impressed by the honest comments from Gallardo owners who had sold their Viper and missed it terribly. That was all I needed to know. I think most people who consider buying a car like this view the driving experience as paramount. The audio system is secondary at best. I guess the big fear is that Dodge may lack the corporate will to continue providing this experience without improved sales numbers. It certainly doesn't help our confidence when production is stalled periodically due to a lack of demand. I'd like to know what the people at Dodge (i.e. Ralph et al) are saying, right now, about the issues being raised here: the effect emissions standards and low sales volume are having on Dodge's decision process moving forward with this car. Quite honesty, consumer confidence that the product is going to endure would likely improve sales and result in further product development: more power.

[darbgnik]

I bought my GTS largely based on comments like this. In fact, I was very close to giving you a call Brad about your blue Gallardo for sale (nice looking car), but after having read the comments on the Lamborghini forum from other Gallardo owners, I went with a Viper. I was really impressed by the honest comments from Gallardo owners who had sold their Viper and missed it terribly. That was all I needed to know. I think most people who consider buying a car like this view the driving experience as paramount. The audio system is secondary at best. I guess the big fear is that Dodge may lack the corporate will to continue providing this experience without improved sales numbers. It certainly doesn't help our confidence when production is stalled periodically due to a lack of demand. I'd like to know what the people at Dodge (i.e. Ralph et al) are saying, right now, about the issues being raised here: the effect emissions standards and low sales volume are having on Dodge's decision process moving forward with this car. Quite honesty, consumer confidence that the product is going to endure would likely improve sales and result in further product development: more power.

I'm honest with everyone about my views on both cars. Another plus, I will say about the Lambo experience, is their customer service is the best I've ever had. When I bought my car, the service manager gave me his personal cell, and said to call anytime, day or night, if there's an issue or question. Which I did on occasion, and he always answered. I also get personal emails from Asgar, the owner, who is an awesome guy to talk to.

But, my car isn't for sale, and hasn't been, must be someone else.......lol

[lochnessmonster]

Good to hear with the Lambo. That's the impression I get as well from the forum. Sorry for the mistake about your car. Do I sense a note of sarcasm? (lol) I thought it was the one for sale on Autotrader.ca.

http://www.autotrader.ca/a/Lamborghini/Gallardo/CROSSFIELD/Alberta/19_8468091_/?showcpo=ShowCPO&orup=7_15_60

Anyway, my bad :) if you're being "honest". BTW good luck with the stereo install. I like my 12 speaker system, but I'm curious to see how the upgrades come along.

[LmeaViper]

I love the V10...however if they could get me 750 HP at a V8 size then I might be swayed.

[lochnessmonster]

I just can't imagine the car as a V8. So much of my satisfaction with the car comes from the fact that the car is a V10.

[Aspirations57]

I just can't imagine the car as a V8. So much of my satisfaction with the car comes from the fact that the car is a V10.

AND its a NA engine...

[lochnessmonster]

Yep, that too!!! They really have a fantastic package with this car. I stomped on it this morning on my way to work. The sound (windows down), acceleration, and handling, spot on. I can't imagine the car with anything less. This car is all about character and distinction. It has both in spades.