using Hp tuners on top of Arrow pcm

[amk]

I was wondering if hp tuners can be used on an Arrow PCM. I have heard that the Arrow pcm has no torque managment issues and that might be the case with the heads. So if I can use the arrow pcm for my NA and hpt for using the nitrous.

[Steve M]

You would end up overwriting the Arrow stuff, essentially going back to stock. With the Gen 4/5 Viper, you either tune the stock PCM or go with the Arrow PCM (Mopar for the Gen 4), but I would not recommend overwriting the Arrow PCM.

[amk]

thank you

[Magnus]

Don't use your Arrow PCM with HP Tuners. You will lose the resale value of the Arrow unit.

If you want a custom tune though, we released an update about a month ago that includes everything the arrow PCM's list, plus much more, so you won't gain any hidden advantages with the idea of using an Arrow as your base.

If you want help achieving some of the effects like decel pop, etc.. or other features, post your tune on the HP Tuners forum and I can help you achieve the various items.

Also, Torrie McPhail is a reseller of HP Tuners and can also sell you a custom tune for your vehicle. He can sell you a tune that you would have access to and can continue to modify.

- Keith @ HP Tuners

[cashcorn]

Arrow is a canned tune. With a good tuner you should come out way ahead. If you are in SD, you need to call A & C Performance. Todd is the man!

[Greg Good]

Don't use your Arrow PCM with HP Tuners. You will lose the resale value of the Arrow unit.

If you want a custom tune though, we released an update about a month ago that includes everything the arrow PCM's list, plus much more, so you won't gain any hidden advantages with the idea of using an Arrow as your base.

If you want help achieving some of the effects like decel pop, etc.. or other features, post your tune on the HP Tuners forum and I can help you achieve the various items.

Also, Torrie McPhail is a reseller of HP Tuners and can also sell you a custom tune for your vehicle. He can sell you a tune that you would have access to and can continue to modify.

- Keith @ HP Tuners

He tried to have the car tuned via HPT with the new heads I ported, but the computer always pulled timing out. No one knows exactly why. Do you have anything you can share with us on that?

Thanks.

[Greg Good]

I know that, but in the past with the Gen 4 heads I've ported the Arrow PCM worked well.

[amk]

So guys here is the thing, I added GG heads to the car, and the car keeps pulling timing we are still not sure what is the exact issue on why when we try to add timing it pulls. We changed to colder spark plugs, saw better gains but as of now the car is exactly the same as a headers and tune gen 5 viper. And yes, I am working with Todd at a&c, Todd and Greg are working together to fix the issue. One of the things we assume that is happening that the vvt can't move because of the larger valve springs that were made for a bigger cam. Another thing could be is that the HP tuners is missing a few tables and Torque managment is one of them, that is why I am asking about the arrow pcm as it might work well for my NA build.


We are all in the learning curve and I think I am the only one who has shaved heads and increased the compression to 11:2. I would never doubt Greg's work, who would ever doubt it with all of the great builds he made. Nor will I doubt Todd's expertise in Tuning these Vipers he is a Great Guy and earned his Rep in the Viper world. We will find a solution we just need to find out if maybe It is possible that my dynamic compression could be higher depending on when the intake valve closes on my cam vs. the other cam. If the dynamic compression is too high you can create a situation where it has a tendency to knock even with low spark advance. Or maybe if we are getting a false knockout from a component.

I am getting Calibrated by James Karger this week on nitrous, I hope we will find an answer on why this is happening to my car.

[Steve M]

He tried to have the car tuned via HPT with the new heads I ported, but the computer always pulled timing out. No one knows exactly why. Do you have anything you can share with us on that?

Thanks.

Do you have the file by any chance?

[Steve M]

If you have the PID available on a Gen 5, you can also log the exhaust cam desired and actual angles and look at them in a histogram to see what's going on there...that would at least prove/disprove your theory about the exhaust cam lobes not getting to the desired angle. It'll look something like this (this is the desired angle):

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/HPTuners%20Viper/Ex%20Cam%20Des%20Angle_zps4piurqsu.jpg

[Greg Good]

Do you have the file by any chance?

Hopefully Todd will join the discussion?

[cashcorn]

does this mean a stand alone is the answer

[amk]

does this mean a stand alone is the answer

It could be, but arrow is working on a heads and cam tune so I am sure HPT would come up with a solution and not go for a pro-efi or motec which costs a lot!

[Steve M]

It could be, but arrow is working on a heads and cam tune so I am sure HPT would come up with a solution and not go for a pro-efi or motec which costs a lot!

The more info you/we can give them, the better chance they have at fixing the issue. There are some kooky things these PCMs do behind the scenes...reverse engineering that stuff ain't easy.

[amk]

I will provide anything within my capabilities, I am not a tuner I am just a car enthusiast. I am sure Todd will join and provide us with feedback so that we can come up with a solution.

[Steve M]

Well, if there's any way I can help, just let me know, even if it is just another set of eyes on it.

[amk]

Well, if there's any way I can help, just let me know, even if it is just another set of eyes on it.

I highly appreciate that Steve!

[Jack B]

Greg:

Do you have access to a witech so that you can check for knock retard? Just so you do not feel real bad, it appears this was not easy for Arrow either. I am down-loading the latest HPT beta tonight. I will verify tomorrow if this version has the scanner is working for the G5 , perhaps Keith can tell us what is new in this latest Beta.

I just did a couple of wot runs to 6400 and the timing was spot on when compared to what I requested.

[Greg Good]

Jack, I'm not a tuner in any way shape or form. Todd is doing the tuning on it.

I'm a Dominator and MSD kind of guy. ;-)

[Jack B]

I have dozens of wot logs on my G5 and the car has my HPT tune. I am not saying it does not exist, however, I have only seen torque management in one area. When you add slicks and launch hard the pcm pulls throttle during the first 60 ft. In my case I have not seen timing being pulled. If I launch on the clutch (slip it) the pcm does not pull throttle.



So guys here is the thing, I added GG heads to the car, and the car keeps pulling timing we are still not sure what is the exact issue on why when we try to add timing it pulls. We changed to colder spark plugs, saw better gains but as of now the car is exactly the same as a headers and tune gen 5 viper. And yes, I am working with Todd at a&c, Todd and Greg are working together to fix the issue. One of the things we assume that is happening that the vvt can't move because of the larger valve springs that were made for a bigger cam. Another thing could be is that the HP tuners is missing a few tables and Torque managment is one of them, that is why I am asking about the arrow pcm as it might work well for my NA build.


We are all in the learning curve and I think I am the only one who has shaved heads and increased the compression to 11:2. I would never doubt Greg's work, who would ever doubt it with all of the great builds he made. Nor will I doubt Todd's expertise in Tuning these Vipers he is a Great Guy and earned his Rep in the Viper world. We will find a solution we just need to find out if maybe It is possible that my dynamic compression could be higher depending on when the intake valve closes on my cam vs. the other cam. If the dynamic compression is too high you can create a situation where it has a tendency to knock even with low spark advance. Or maybe if we are getting a false knockout from a component.

I am getting Calibrated by James Karger this week on nitrous, I hope we will find an answer on why this is happening to my car.

[amk]

I have dozens of wot logs on my G5 and the car has my HPT tune. I am not saying it does not exist, however, I have only seen torque management in one area. When you add slicks and launch hard the pcm pulls throttle during the first 60 ft. In my case I have not seen timing being pulled. If I launch on the clutch (slip it) the pcm does not pull throttle.

Do you have ported heads with increased compression to 11:2 ?

[Jack B]

Does Todd have a way to see the enhanced pids on the G5.



Jack, I'm not a tuner in any way shape or form. Todd is doing the tuning on it.

I'm a Dominator and MSD kind of guy. ;-)

[Jack B]

Obviously not, my point was, I found that it was employing torque management by pulling throttle - just trying to help.


Do you have ported heads with increased compression to 11:2 ?

[amk]

Obviously not, my point was, I found that it was employing torque management by pulling throttle - just trying to help.

The most accurate answer can be provided from Todd, he will give us an answer he is just too busy working on many other builds. I appreciate the intension to help Jack :)

[Greg Good]

That's good to know. Thanks Jack.

[99RT10]

Can the HP tuner be solely used to turn off the knock sensors while leaving the rest of the tune alone? Would another way to trick the computer, possibly, maybe put a techeometer on to fool the IAT sensor?

[Jack B]

On the beta version that I am using, I do not see a switch for the knock retard.



Can the HP tuner be solely used to turn off the knock sensors while leaving the rest of the tune alone? Would another way to trick the computer, possibly, maybe put a techeometer on to fool the IAT sensor?

[99RT10]

On the beta version that I am using, I do not see a switch for the knock retard.

They need to know that is an option that NEEDS to be there.

[Magnus]

You can disable knock retard with our software.

Also, I know tuners want to keep things private, but, if you post your tune on the HP Tuners forum, I can help you, and the rest of the community.

If not, I'm confident Torrie McPhail could help get rid of the timing reduction. He's spent quite a bit of time tuning many Gen 4 and Gen 5 vipers with HPT now.

-Keith @ HP Tuners

[amk]

You can disable knock retard with our software.

Also, I know tuners want to keep things private, but, if you post your tune on the HP Tuners forum, I can help you, and the rest of the community.

If not, I'm confident Torrie McPhail could help get rid of the timing reduction. He's spent quite a bit of time tuning many Gen 4 and Gen 5 vipers with HPT now.

-Keith @ HP Tuners

Todd would do anything for me to get the issue resolved, we will do everything to make this build work. Also, Keith with compression increase, longer valve springs etc. Don't you think tuning this car is pretty different than other Gen 5's ?

[Steve M]

On the beta version that I am using, I do not see a switch for the knock retard.

It's not a switch, it's a table.

[Steve M]

Can the HP tuner be solely used to turn off the knock sensors while leaving the rest of the tune alone? Would another way to trick the computer, possibly, maybe put a techeometer on to fool the IAT sensor?

Yes, you can.


On the beta version that I am using, I do not see a switch for the knock retard.

Jack,

Zero this table out:

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/HPTuners%20Viper/Knock%20Retard%20Gen%205_zpsullzklk3.jpg

[Jack B]

Steve:

I just reviewed my tune with the latest G5 beta. A few observations:

Beta 2.25 - 1958
1. The torque management for the G5 is a switch and I have mine turned off. The table you posted is missing from the G5 version, all I have is a switch. I have not looked at this since October and if the weather keeps up I may not need it this year.

2. There still is no relearn function that i can fined.

3. The compare function is still not functional.

Basically, I did not find anything new in the "Editor", I will try the scanner this weekend.






It's not a switch, it's a table.

[Steve M]

Also, once you make sure you are using the latest beta software, disable all of the diagnostics except for the variable cam stuff:

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/HPTuners%20Viper/Gen%205%20Diagnostics%201_zpswybixyd4.jpg

And disable misfire detection stuff by setting the min IAT to something absurd (i.e. >300):

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/HPTuners%20Viper/Gen%205%20Diagnostics%202_zps3vo0h6of.jpg

[Steve M]

Steve:

I just reviewed my tune with the latest G5 beta. A few observations:

Beta 2.25 - 1958
1. The torque management for the G5 is a switch and I have mine turned off. I have not looked at this since October and if the weather keeps up I may not need it this year.

2. There still is no relearn function that i can fined.

3. The compare function is still not functional.

Basically, I did not find anything new in the "Editor", I will try the scanner this weekend.

Relearn, once enabled, will be in the scanner, not the editor. From what I know, it isn't ready yet.

The compare function, while not perfect, works just fine for me. Used it 5 minutes ago actually.

As for torque management, you set the spark retard torque spark to disabled, correct (the stock file is shown, hence why it is enabled)?

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/HPTuners%20Viper/Gen%205%20Torque%20Mgt_zpsjgqufkqn.jpg

[Jack B]

Steve:

you say the compare function works, mine does not show the x and y axis ID's. With the rpm missing it makes it just as easy to compare them manually. i did find the spark retard tab. I did have the spark retard disabled in my recent tune.

[Steve M]

Steve:

you say the compare function works, mine does not show the x and y axis ID's. With the rpm missing it makes it just as easy to compare them manually.

When I say not perfect, that's what I mean...it will show you if the x/y-axes are different though (and many are between the Gen 4 and 5 calibrations). You can still copy/paste between, and differences are highlighted. You can also view the log of differences, which is helpful for seeing all of the differences in one place.

[Jack B]

I think we pirated this post, i apologize.

[Steve M]

I think we pirated this post, i apologize.

I'm just trying to clear up any confusion and give some helpful pointers on things I'd look at first with HPT...I have no vested interested in any of this. I'm here to help and learn...at the end of the day, I want to see this platform reach its full potential. My car is stock outside of HPTuners and a catch can, so I have to live vicariously through others. If I can help in any way, I'll certainly give it a shot. I also fully understand that people aren't necessarily willing to open the kimono and share what they've tried when it comes to tuning. With the market being so small, I can't necessarily blame them.

[Greg Good]

I think we pirated this post, i apologize.

No, keep it up.

[Jack B]

No, keep it up.

I take that apology back.

[Steve M]

Don't forget you also have the ability to adjust the exhaust cam angle vs. airmass vs. RPM:

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/HPTuners%20Viper/Gen%205%20Exhaust%20Cam%20Control_zpsopayouhm.jpg

For some reason, the Gen 5 exhaust cam table is less aggressive than the stock Gen 4 table:

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/HPTuners%20Viper/Exhaust%20Cam%20Angle_zpsvaj9abo2.jpg

This could help with figuring out whether or not you are getting the exhaust cam lobe angle that's being requested. If you need help setting up a custom histogram in the scanner, let me know...the only issue is that I don't have a full list of the supported PIDs for a Gen 5. I had to make a custom histogram to display the info I wanted...it isn't hard, just takes a little trial and error.

[amk]

Don't forget you also have the ability to adjust the exhaust cam angle vs. airmass vs. RPM:

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/HPTuners%20Viper/Gen%205%20Exhaust%20Cam%20Control_zpsopayouhm.jpg

For some reason, the Gen 5 exhaust cam table is less aggressive than the stock Gen 4 table:

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/HPTuners%20Viper/Exhaust%20Cam%20Angle_zpsvaj9abo2.jpg

This could help with figuring out whether or not you are getting the exhaust cam lobe angle that's being requested. If you need help setting up a custom histogram in the scanner, let me know...the only issue is that I don't have a full list of the supported PIDs for a Gen 5. I had to make a custom histogram to display the info I wanted...it isn't hard, just takes a little trial and error.

Thanks you guys have been more than helpful, we will keep testing until a solution is found.

[Magnus]

Steve:

you say the compare function works, mine does not show the x and y axis ID's. With the rpm missing it makes it just as easy to compare them manually. i did find the spark retard tab. I did have the spark retard disabled in my recent tune.

This was done by design as most modern PCM's have dynamic axis.

Nobody has complained about it. If you guys complain about things (on our forum), we can fix them.

Tomorrows beta will be changed so that axis cells will show the original values if the axis are the same. If the axis are different, all the cells will be 0 (and then you have to manually compare).

- Keith @ HP Tuners