Need a quick response please

[outnumbered]

Do the new vipers have Vin numbers on the motors?

[KB Viper]

yes they are vin matched. if you get a new motor under warranty they will vin match it to your vin so you wont' get crushed on resale. do you need a new motor?

[outnumbered]

Yes. Thanks

[ViperJon]

Oh no....not another one...

[KB Viper]

Yes. Thanks

rod bearing failure?

[outnumbered]

rod bearing failure?

Honestly, I'm not sure that they know. The dealership has tried all the obvious options with no success. However, I got a call tonight on whether I would accept a crate motor; hence my VIN# concern.

[ViperSmith]

I don't think it is that big of an issue, personally.

How many people check?

[outnumbered]

I don't think it is that big of an issue, personally.

How many people check?

With this type of car, I would.

[ViperSmith]

With this type of car, I would.

Voice of Reason has his replaced, I'd ask him what impact it had on trade in.

[outnumbered]

At the end of the day it probably doesn't matter, because I don't plan on selling the car. However, it sounds like it might be a mute point with what KBViper says above.

[ViperDC]

These arent investments, it wouldnt bother me personally

[Reaper]

Hate hearing this but if they give you a new engine, thats the best possible outcome. I get home from work today and get 2 recalls in the mail for my car, the airbag shim and the door node. Not big deals by any means for a hand built car but now I read this too. Im wanting to get the Arrow PCM for my car but after I keep reading about engine replacements and recalls, I think Im gonna hold off for a while and enjoy my warranty. I love this car, dont get me wrong, but it seems there are some issues floating around with them.

[Rapidrezults]

These arent investments, it wouldnt bother me personally

I agree. If you ever decide to sell it, I highly doubt it will be an issue.

I've traded in many cars and I don't think I've ever had someone ask me about any warranty or service problems that I had with the vehicle to be traded in. The dealers are too busy getting excited about the new purchase you are about to make to care. On the other side, if you are selling via a private party transaction, I think the explanation is such that Dodge couldn't figure out the problem and decided to give you a new crate motor. That is, if it even comes up in conversation. Plus, you have enough compensating factors, rare color combo etc., that I can't see it even becoming a factor. Enjoy the car regardless of the outcome and don't look back!

[Simms]

What was the mileage again?

[FLATOUT]

On a carbon or TA I would absolutely want numbers matching.

[Aspirations57]

What was the mileage again?

He stated 3,700 in his original Limp Mode post. Not good to hear.:(

[outnumbered]

What was the mileage again?

3700

[ViperJon]

Yet another catastrophic engine failure on a Gen V. Will this one be blamed on oil starvation like the others? Baloney.
I'll bet the engineers know why but there is no way they are going to do a recall and replace/repair hundreds and hundreds of engines.

[Fatboy 18]

What the hell is going on with these cars?

Is there or is someone keeping a register on all the failures of the new Gen v?

This is essentially the same engine as the Gen IV is it not? Why so many problems?

[outnumbered]

Hopefully these are isolated incidents, and owners can rely-on and enjoy their cars. I don' feel any differently about the car now than what I did when I picked it up....just a little disappointed that I don't have it. Quality issues happen, but at the end of the day for me, it's all about the end result. Hopefully in the not too distant future, I'm driving again, with no further thoughts of this ordeal.

I just want it back for the Dragon.

[Coloviper]

Hey if Dodge is standing behind the product and replacing the motor, that is all you can ask for at this time. Chances are the new one will be a bit stronger. Typically the new crate motor is stronger as the last thing the manufacturer wants is to still have an issue after all the hassle.

If they put your VIN in place, then keep paperwork and don't worry about it. If you were replacing on your own, that hurts value. One instance shows abuse by you or other owners, the other is a mistake by manufacturer. Big difference on resale depending on circumstances.

[Blue T/A 2.0]

If you are concerned about numbers matching, check to see if Arrow can fix your current engine. In the old days, it was a plus to have an Arrow rebuilt engine.

[outnumbered]

Just left the dealership. When I trailered the car to them, it rained slightly, which left some water spots. Knowing that was driving me crazy. So they allowed me to come in and clean it up. I feel a little better now.

[XSnake]

Depending on the damage your current engine could be sent to Arrow and fixed, thus keeping the #'s matching. This would take more time though. You might want to contact Arrow directly and just tell them the situation. Let them call your dealership service dept.

[Aspirations57]

Guys I think you are all getting to wound up over the numbers thing. Most of us will be dead by the time these car will rise in value from a collectors standpoint. The thing that would worry me most is damage caused pulling and replacing the engine. Body and frame damage would put me off way more then an engine replacement. As long as the OP gets full documentation of the whole procedure I dont see any loss in value on resale. There are a bunch of 1 of 1 Vipers out there and I have yet to see any record resale of any with the exception of GTS-Rs. Plenty of old Ferrari's with replaced engines and its not hurting their values.
The first order of business is to get the car fixed correctly and the next is to drive and enjoy it.

[AZTVR]

Guys I think you are all getting to wound up over the numbers thing. Agreed. I think that's a Corvette thing and 40 year old and older collector cars.

[Voice of Reason]

3,700 miles is when the engine in my 13 failed. The crate engine that replaced it was perfect and it didn't affect my trade in value. In fact the car is now owned by a member here and he knew of the issue before buying so it obviously doesn't bother him either.

[outnumbered]

Thank you for that information.

[outnumbered]

There is a high probability that SRT will be sending out a crate motor early next week. If in fact that happens I can't ask for any more than that. Just ready to drive again.

[ACRucrazy]

Bummer to hear, yet another one!

[darbgnik]

There is a high probability that SRT will be sending out a crate motor early next week. If in fact that happens I can't ask for any more than that. Just ready to drive again.

I might be the odd one out here, but I like the idea of Dodge sending out a complete engine in situations like this. I'd trust the new one over letting some dealership guy, of questionable skill, tear apart your old engine, and and slapping it back together with the old fingers crossed.

[outnumbered]

I don't have one of the big well known dealerships here, but completely trust the Viper tech working on my car. Nonetheless, it does appear that a complete crate engine will be sent.

[viper04]

So did they say what the issue is? Rod bearing/crank bearing ect.. or we don't know what it is so we will replace the motor.

[Nine Ball]

Numbers matching isn't important on newer vehicles. I'd say that stopped being important in the 1970s. Besides, the Viper engine itself didn't vary between trim levels, they are all the exact same engine. If this Carbon model had a special engine, then maybe it would be more relevant to keep the original.

Even on classic cars, restored cars with modified engines do very well on resale. Simply based on the condition and quality of the restoration done. The pro-touring and resto-mod cars are also selling for much more than the numbers matching stock vehicles are. There are exceptions, such as Hemi or COPO/ZL1 type cars - but those were packages built around the engine itself. Our Viper packages are based around paint color, and wings/aero.

[G37Sam]

On a more positive note, you'll be getting 5 more ponies!! :D

[ViperJon]

So did they say what the issue is? Rod bearing/crank bearing ect.. or we don't know what it is so we will replace the motor.

That's the elephant in the room. Dodge has to know what is grenading these motors but not a peep from them or the dealers replacing them. 159 TA's made and there are at least 6 we know of from here had to be replaced. And that's just here.

[Nine Ball]

That's the elephant in the room. Dodge has to know what is grenading these motors but not a peep from them or the dealers replacing them. 159 TA's made and there are at least 6 we know of from here had to be replaced. And that's just here.

Hardly an elephant. I'm not certain of the exact production number of Gen 5 cars built so far, but lets say 2,000 of them.

6/2000 = 0.3%

The sky certainly isn't falling. You can't compare a 640hp NA V10 reliability with that of a Camry or Civic - and even those cars have engine failures you never hear about.

I bought a brand new BMW X5 in 2008. It lasted 2 days and the engine blew. They bought it back.

[46hemi]

I would have no issue with a replacement motor, my main concern would be the process of removing the old and installing the new and the care of the car while in their possession. I would take good pics/video and be super meticulous with documenting every step, especially how much time the car is in repair.

[outnumbered]

So did they say what the issue is? Rod bearing/crank bearing ect.. or we don't know what it is so we will replace the motor.

They do not. However, there are still areas that have not been checked; the oil pump, and underneath the intake. We know the pump is building pressure. So either something is preventing that oil from flowing at the pump itself, or somewhere between the pump and the top of the block. If the front cover of the motor is pulled off, the pump could be inspected. If the intake were removed, the entire valley would be exposed; maybe debris is lodged somewhere. Or, maybe SRT has reason to believe that a possible blockage exists deep within the block somewhere, and given that a tech at a dealership does not have the equipment needed to deal with that type of issue, they are saving us all the time and trouble. That is my "glass half full" theory.

My motor hasn't gone through a catastrophic failure. As it stands now, nothing has broken. It's not making any unusual sounds, it's not idling or running rough. I have an oil gauge that is pegged, and we don't know why.

If they knew of a problem with any one specific part that began to show a frequency of failure, then I would expect, and have to assume that a recall would be warranted. Replacing a part would certainly have a much greater financial impact to them over replacing an entire motor. However, if there is a slim possibility that a few motors could have experienced a quality defect during the manufacturing process, they are much better off to take a "wait and see" approach. With 25 years in manufacturing, that is the direction I myself would take. It's not a safety issue, so they don't have to worry about endangering anyone's life.

Furthermore, as much as I would like to know exactly what my issue is, if it is a deep internal blockage (just speculating) what exactly would I be able to do about it? It's not like I can perform some type of maintenance to correct the problem. So if SRT doesn't want to publish the results of a very small random sampling, over which I don't have the ability to prevent or correct, it really becomes useless information to me as the consumer. If they came out today and made the statement that they felt an extremely small percentage of Gen 5 motors may have experienced a quality flaw (debris somewhere in the block), what would the expectation be? Replace every motor? I think not.

At this point; absent a known component failure, all they can do is ensure that their quality process is corrected, and deal with what is likely an isolated issue in the most expedient fashion possible. At the end of the day, I would rather have my car running, rather than engineers sitting around going through a lengthy process of elimination, while my car sits at the dealership. Kudo's to SRT for removing me (the customer) from that aggravation. If in fact that is what happens.

[outnumbered]

Also, Kudo's to the dealership (Keffer Dodge in Charlotte) that is dealing with this issue. I did not purchase the car from them, yet I don't know if I could have gotten a team that is anymore diligent in trying to resolve this problem for me. Both the service director and the Viper Tech have been communicating with Chrysler and SRT......I've seen the emails. They both have a true sense of empathy on my situation, and want nothing more for my car to be fixed and fixed correctly. They have even offered for me to come and watch the motor replacement take place; if that is what happens. I have been reassured several times that this will be resolved, and that I have nothing to worry about, and I believe them.

[swexlin]

Also, Kudo's to the dealership (Keffer Dodge in Charlotte) that is dealing with this issue. I did not purchase the car from them, yet I don't know if I could have gotten a team that is anymore diligent in trying to resolve this problem for me. Both the service director and the Viper Tech have been communicating with Chrysler and SRT......I've seen the emails. They both have a true sense of empathy on my situation, and want nothing more for my car to be fixed and fixed correctly. They have even offered for me to come and watch the motor replacement take place; if that is what happens. I have been reassured several times that this will be resolved, and that I have nothing to worry about, and I believe them.

Ron, thanks for the update, and sounds the like Chrysler is doing the right thing. Please keep us posted.

[ViperSmith]

While the situation is so fun, it is nice to see that Dodge is stepping up to fix the issue completely

[Voice of Reason]

Hardly an elephant. I'm not certain of the exact production number of Gen 5 cars built so far, but lets say 2,000 of them.

6/2000 = 0.3%



There have been way more than 6 failures though. A friend just bought a 14 that was bought back due to an engine failure. He doesn't post here. Those of us online make up a small portion of owners so whatever we're hearing about take it times 10 at least. Heck I didn't "come out" about my engine failure for a year, I bet there are others on here just like me keeping quiet while their engine is replaced or keeping quiet for fear of backlash later during resale. Also consider the historical Viper owner who only drives 1000 miles a year. Some of those are going to fail in 3-4 years, right when warranty runs out. I suspect failure rates are 3-5% which is way too high.

If they do learn of an inherent issue I hope they do the right thing and perform a recall, even if that means 2000 crate engines need to be sent out for installation.

[swexlin]

There have been way more than 6 failures though. A friend just bought a 14 that was bought back due to an engine failure. He doesn't post here. Those of us online make up a small portion of owners so whatever we're hearing about take it times 10 at least. Heck I didn't "come out" about my engine failure for a year, I bet there are others on here just like me keeping quiet while their engine is replaced or keeping quiet for fear of backlash later during resale. Also consider the historical Viper owner who only drives 1000 miles a year. Some of those are going to fail in 3-4 years, right when warranty runs out. I suspect failure rates are 3-5% which is way too high.

If they do learn of an inherent issue I hope they do the right thing and perform a recall, even if that means 2000 crate engines need to be sent out for installation.

Good post, and one reason why I bought extended warranty as well. The sky isn't falling, but you need to aware.

[kdaviper]

Hardly an elephant. I'm not certain of the exact production number of Gen 5 cars built so far, but lets say 2,000 of them.

6/2000 = 0.3%

The sky certainly isn't falling. You can't compare a 640hp NA V10 reliability with that of a Camry or Civic - and even those cars have engine failures you never hear about.

I bought a brand new BMW X5 in 2008. It lasted 2 days and the engine blew. They bought it back.

Yeah compare this to what happened with the Porche GT3's... complete engine replacements for ALL.

[gpearl]

Also, Kudo's to the dealership (Keffer Dodge in Charlotte) that is dealing with this issue. I did not purchase the car from them, yet I don't know if I could have gotten a team that is anymore diligent in trying to resolve this problem for me. Both the service director and the Viper Tech have been communicating with Chrysler and SRT......I've seen the emails. They both have a true sense of empathy on my situation, and want nothing more for my car to be fixed and fixed correctly. They have even offered for me to come and watch the motor replacement take place; if that is what happens. I have been reassured several times that this will be resolved, and that I have nothing to worry about, and I believe them.

As it should be. Nice to see.

[ViperJon]

Hardly an elephant. I'm not certain of the exact production number of Gen 5 cars built so far, but lets say 2,000 of them.

6/2000 = 0.3%
.

There has been at least six or more on just the TA's and that's only ones willing to post HERE. That's out of 159 cars. That seems like an unusually high failure rate on one model doesn't it?

[jjrho]

hi guys, i have a '14 TA with 1300 miles… starting to drive again after getting the front strut replaced… what are the symptoms, if any, of a pending failure ? does it go up in temp? what are the noise you'd hear ? i read something about oil dip stick being not easy to read but assuming i read it on a flat surface with car been off for a few days…. if i'm reading the oil at the bottom of the "range", how much should I refill ?

tnx,
jR
'14 TA, corsa, mgw

[Jack B]

Keep in mind, several of the failures were related to low oil.


There have been way more than 6 failures though. A friend just bought a 14 that was bought back due to an engine failure. He doesn't post here. Those of us online make up a small portion of owners so whatever we're hearing about take it times 10 at least. Heck I didn't "come out" about my engine failure for a year, I bet there are others on here just like me keeping quiet while their engine is replaced or keeping quiet for fear of backlash later during resale. Also consider the historical Viper owner who only drives 1000 miles a year. Some of those are going to fail in 3-4 years, right when warranty runs out. I suspect failure rates are 3-5% which is way too high.

If they do learn of an inherent issue I hope they do the right thing and perform a recall, even if that means 2000 crate engines need to be sent out for installation.

[viper04]

Outnumbered
Thanks for the update, hope it all works out. You seem to be in good hands dealership wise.

[outnumbered]

Outnumbered
Thanks for the update, hope it all works out. You seem to be in good hands dealership wise.

Thanks. I'm pretty optimistic that it will.

[ICPREY]

I would have them replace the oil cooler and lines while they are at it.

[outnumbered]

I would have them replace the oil cooler and lines while they are at it.

Good point.

[mjorgensen]

I would have them replace the oil cooler and lines while they are at it.

That is a requirement any time the engine is replace, the engine will come with these items if they are sending one out complete.

[outnumbered]

Motor has been ordered. 2-4 weeks to deliver, 3 days to install.

[darbgnik]

Wow. That escalated quickly. From a pressure sensor to a new engine. Glad they're taking care of you though.

[outnumbered]

I know. Having to cancel some upcoming plans; hopefully not the Dragon event.

[swexlin]

Motor has been ordered. 2-4 weeks to deliver, 3 days to install.


2-4 is too long, IMO. They should have once overnighted to the dealer, IMO.

[CarolinaViper]

Hopefully closer to two weeks than the four. That way you can still make the ToD

[Voice of Reason]

Let them know your lemon clock it ticking and if they're smart the engine will come quicker.

[outnumbered]

2-4 is too long, IMO. They should have once overnighted to the dealer, IMO.

I'm being told that the motor has to be shipped from the motor factory to the dyno so that it can go through its test run and verify HP. I don't know whether the motor is even built, but I have to assume so. My dealer has already told them that 4 weeks is completely unacceptable.

- - - Updated - - -


Let them know your lemon clock it ticking and if they're smart the engine will come quicker.

Did that.

[AZTVR]

2-4 is too long, IMO. They should have once overnighted to the dealer, IMO.

Definitely, they should pull it from a car on the line. Whoever is waiting on it can wait longer.

[Mamba52]

Sorry too hear your problems outnumbered. Looks like we might be fighting for the same engine. My car is now back at the dealer for the same problem (3x) and is stalling for no reason. They should be giving me a update this week as this might be a buy back car :( or replacing the engine. Hopefully they can resolve it quickly.

[outnumbered]

Sorry too hear your problems outnumbered. Looks like we might be fighting for the same engine. My car is now back at the dealer for the same problem (3x) and is stalling for no reason. They should be giving me a update this week as this might be a buy back car :( or replacing the engine. Hopefully they can resolve it quickly.

Best of luck to you. It certainly isn't any fun sitting around wanting to drive your car, but can't. Sounds like they need to be proactive and get a couple of motors prepared.

[outnumbered]

Tomorrow will be 14 days since I dropped the car off. I'm trying to be as patient as I can, and not lose interest in the car that I searched for six months to find. It's hard not to think about the 20 day lemon law in NC. However, I have been given a couple of options (of value) for the inconvenience from SRT. So the possibility of me acting on the lemon law are slim. Besides, I seriously doubt that I would be able to get another Carbon Edition; which for me, would be a deal killer.

It doesn't look like we will found out what actually caused all this. Although, I did receive some information basically saying that within FCA warranty division, there is a listing of early 2014 engines that were exposed to debris during assembly. This would explain why they didn't have the dealer probe any deeper than what they did (not removing the timing cover or the intake). Hopefully I get some good news this week.

[dasvolk]

It took almost 6 weeks for my engine replacement to be completed. My car had a dragging clutch, a bad synchronizer, reverse gear hub, and some electrical problems. Chrysler didn't balk at agreeing to build a replacement vehicle for me (MSRP to MSRP) when I emailed the district warranty manager. I figured a car built this year would be more likely to have the fixes/adjustments that the earlier cars needed taken care of, plus I really like that competition blue color.

[Aspirations57]

Although, I did receive some information basically saying that within FCA warranty division, there is a listing of early 2014 engines that were exposed to debris during assembly.


So Dodge is admitting that they know a known quanity of cars could have engine problems but instead of a recall they will wait and see if the engines expire at some point?,thats total BS....Makes me feel real good to know I might be driving a potential time bomb ,so to speak. People who have these vehicles on this so called list should be alerted at the very least for a dealer inspection at the very least. Good ole QC Dodge..

[ViperJon]

Although, I did receive some information basically saying that within FCA warranty division, there is a listing of early 2014 engines that were exposed to debris during assembly.


So Dodge is admitting that they know a known quanity of cars could have engine problems but instead of a recall they will wait and see if the engines expire at some point?,thats total BS....Makes me feel real good to know I might be driving a potential time bomb ,so to speak. People who have these vehicles on this so called list should be alerted at the very least for a dealer inspection at the very least. Good ole QC Dodge..

This is exactly what I was asking previously. A dealer like Woodhouse or Tomball MUST be aware of this and yet no one says anything.
They have never commented in any of the threads discussing this issue yet they are replacing engines and they know why.

[outnumbered]

It took almost 6 weeks for my engine replacement to be completed. My car had a dragging clutch, a bad synchronizer, reverse gear hub, and some electrical problems. Chrysler didn't balk at agreeing to build a replacement vehicle for me (MSRP to MSRP) when I emailed the district warranty manager. I figured a car built this year would be more likely to have the fixes/adjustments that the earlier cars needed taken care of, plus I really like that competition blue color.

6 weeks would not be a good scenario for me.

[Nine Ball]

There has been at least six or more on just the TA's and that's only ones willing to post HERE. That's out of 159 cars. That seems like an unusually high failure rate on one model doesn't it?

Your logic here is numerically flawed. The TA has no special difference in engines. The engine is exactly the same as all the other Gen 5 Vipers built. Your statement would be the equivalent of me stating that the ratio of blown engines in a 1-of-2 color scheme car would mean that all cars that color should be counted separately. That has zero value here.

We can't even pin the possibility on the fact that TA owners track their cars more. The engines that have failed didn't do so on the track, most of them never even went on a track.

The facts are based on data. Even if 20 engines failed by now, that is still only 1% of production. Hardly "sky is falling", again.

[ViperJon]

It doesn't look like we will found out what actually caused all this. Although, I did receive some information basically saying that within FCA warranty division, there is a listing of early 2014 engines that were exposed to debris during assembly. This would explain why they didn't have the dealer probe any deeper than what they did (not removing the timing cover or the intake).

And slowly and obviously begrudgingly the truth will seep out about this issue.
Lets see what the statistics and percentages say then. And hope you're not on the "listing".

[G37Sam]

Can't say I didn't hear of that as well! :)

Best of luck Ron.

[outnumbered]

And slowly and obviously begrudgingly the truth will seep out about this issue.
Lets see what the statistics and percentages say then. And hope you're not on the "listing".

Actually, I do hope I'm on the list. If so, I at least know the causal factor, or at least the assumed causal factor.

[outnumbered]

What might be helpful is if we could somehow look at the motors with issues, and group them together. Maybe look to see if the range occurred over a specific week or month. Then those with close enough motor build dates could somewhat question as to whether they should be concerned. I don't know if we could do it with VIN #'s, as certain colors/editions would have the same last 4 numbers. Are there any other identifiers that would allow us to compare?

[ViperJon]

Your logic here is numerically flawed. The TA has no special difference in engines. The engine is exactly the same as all the other Gen 5 Vipers built. Your statement would be the equivalent of me stating that the ratio of blown engines in a 1-of-2 color scheme car would mean that all cars that color should be counted separately. That has zero value here..

Not necessarily.
They (TA's) could have been built at the same time, one after the other on the line on a certain day(s) by a certain shift or other pertinent characteristic.
That would make it hugely relevant.

[outnumbered]

I can't win....we bought the 50 acres behind our house several months ago. Afterwards, we went and bought a new Yamaha Viking side by side to enjoy the property. Noticed the other day that brake fluid was coming out of the rear caliper. So I had the dealer come and get it. They called me yesterday to let me know that the caliper failed, and that it would take a week for another to arrive.

Maybe I shouldn't buy new things anymore...it's only got 30 hours on it.........I guess I just have to laugh, given my situation.

[swexlin]

I hear ya Ron. Shit happens, and all we can do is keep on keepin' on. Please keep us posted.

[outnumbered]

The heck with all of this....I'm going to be spending some time in Nashville over the next couple of weeks. So, I'm going to indulge in some Jack Daniels Tennessee Honey. Maybe I will come back realizing this was all a bad dream.

[viper04]

Just hang in there, I think it will all work out in the end.

[swexlin]

As an aside, I did find out from my tech this morning that there is a TSB for the oil pressure sending unit. It is the same part number used in many Chrysler products, and many are failing.

Also, he as one Gen 5 engine that he has been ordered to send oil samples back to Detroit. It was a car this dealer sold some time ago, don't know what the engine issue is. So someone in Detroit knows something is going on.

[Jack B]

Good luck, you have handled this issue extremely well.



The heck with all of this....I'm going to be spending some time in Nashville over the next couple of weeks. So, I'm going to indulge in some Jack Daniels Tennessee Honey. Maybe I will come back realizing this was all a bad dream.

[outnumbered]

Good luck, you have handled this issue extremely well.

Love the car.......And although this is disappointing, I'm not going to turn my back on a brand that I have supported (with 4 vehicles) for the last 10 years.

[TrackAire]

Love the car.......And although this is disappointing, I'm not going to turn my back on a brand that I have supported (with 4 vehicles) for the last 10 years.

Regardless of how bad FCA is handling this situation, I wouldn't give up a Carbon Edition, no matter what. That car is just too special IMO.

Having said that, how can a company the size of FCA not have a least a dozen motors sitting on the shelf for situations like this? THAT is unacceptable.

[drueherl]

Not necessarily.
They (TA's) could have been built at the same time, one after the other on the line on a certain day(s) by a certain shift or other pertinent characteristic.
That would make it hugely relevant.

From what we see on the order to delivery timeframe what you are saying IS hugely relevant. Its odvious they run models through all at once like you are saying.

[outnumbered]

Making the most of my situation (down time that is). Taking the X brace to get painted the color of the car.