Brake fluid flush/change

[Simms]

How many bottles needed, 3?

Thanks!

[Simms]

Thanks Drew. Any info on Motul 660 vs. 600?

[lmcgrew79]

3/4 Bottles. GEN 5 also uses a diagonal split hydraulic system instead of front/rear split. Bleeding procedure is right rear, left front, left rear right front.

[Simms]

3/4 Bottles. GEN 5 also uses a diagonal split hydraulic system instead of front/rear split. Bleeding procedure is right rear, left front, left rear right front.

Thanks! Good to know! I was thinking the usual RR, RL, FR, FL.

[TexasTonka]

Thanks Drew. Any info on Motul 660 vs. 600?


Ran Motul 600 for years in all my performance vehicles without issue. I really don't push the brakes hard enough to get the fluid boiling except for ONE time... I also flush them every 6 months because the Motul absorbs so much moisture so quickly. If your brake or clutch fluid is black, change it.

With the one time Motul boiled on me and scared the crap out of me I now use Castrol SRF exclusively. It is expensive as hell but if it is good enough for road racing cars it is good enough for me.

[viper04]

Thanks! Good to know! I was thinking the usual RR, RL, FR, FL.

Same here,(RR, RL, FR, FL) is this for the Gen 5 (Bleeding procedure is right rear, left front, left rear right front). Going to be doing this just want to make sure. Thanks

[Rapidrezults]

Ran Motul 600 for years in all my performance vehicles without issue. I really don't push the brakes hard enough to get the fluid boiling except for ONE time... I also flush them every 6 months because the Motul absorbs so much moisture so quickly. If your brake or clutch fluid is black, change it.

With the one time Motul boiled on me and scared the crap out of me I now use Castrol SRF exclusively. It is expensive as hell but if it is good enough for road racing cars it is good enough for me.

I just flushed out the Motul RBF 600 in mine from a boiling I did at Laguna. I am now running Castrol SRF as well, and after 1 track day with it I can tell it is a better fluid. It may be all in my mind but right away I felt the pedal was more firm after the flush. Could be the compressibility is better, not sure, but I'm a believer in Castrol now.

[FSTENUF]

3 and 1/2 for a complete change. I went with the 600 fluid. The 660 is for above dot 5 and cost a lot more.

[Darius]

I just flushed out the Motul RBF 600 in mine from a boiling I did at Laguna. I am now running Castrol SRF as well, and after 1 track day with it I can tell it is a better fluid. It may be all in my mind but right away I felt the pedal was more firm after the flush. Could be the compressibility is better, not sure, but I'm a believer in Castrol now.

You boiled rbf600? Always worked great for me.

[Rapidrezults]

You boiled rbf600? Always worked great for me.

Yeah, probably more so related to the fact that I ran in two different groups that day with very little cool down between sessions (15-20mins)and pedal went to mush...either way I feel like the pedal is firmer and just feels better after running Thunderhill a few weeks back with Castrol.

[lmcgrew79]

Castrol SRF is probably the best, i used to run it but its kinda pricey. Motul 600 for the last few years.

[TrackAire]

I sure would like to hear from Tom (the lube guy) about his thoughts on brake fluid for tracking, etc. I'm upgrading the brakes on my track Mustang and have been doing some research regarding brake fluid. Here is what I've found so far...can't vouch how accurate it is, but it does make sense to me.

1. The higher the dry/wet boiling points, the more hydroscopic that brake fluid is. Not good if left in a system after multiple track events, etc.

2. There is some thought that a very good quality brake fluid (say DOT 4 with a 510 degree dry boiling point) that costs under $3.00 a bottle at Walmart makes more sense than the uber expensive stuff like Castrol because you can flush it literally every track day (or twice a day if running a stock class with very small brakes, etc) and have just as good performance as Castrol that's been heated up for 2 or 3 track days. Once the stuff gets cooked, I do believe it drastically loses its function, regardless of the starting price or dry boiling points.

3. I'm not sure how much "wet boiling" point matters since how many track guys leave their brake fluid in the system that long?.....I would also think humidity, max brake caliper temps, etc all matter on the final fluid performance outcome.

4. I do think that our cars (especially those with anti lock brakes and or electronic stability control) have to use a brake fluid with the correct viscosity. If the fluid is too thick, then the anti lock brakes and ESP system will be slower to react.

I've been running the Motul RBF600 for the last 3 years in my track Mustang and have never felt brake fade or what I would assume is boiling. I tracked at Sonoma a month ago. I decide to flush the system last weekend and found a brand new bottle of the Motul stuff in a box that the cars previous owner had given me with extra parts, etc. I figured it was my lucky day not having to spend about $20.00 on a bottle of Motul. But, this stuff was at least 4 years old. While refilling the brake reservoir, I noticed the Motul fluid was much thicker than I remembered. I wonder if being old changed its viscosity???. I tracked at Thunderhill 5 mile yesterday and found the brakes just seemed to be "harder" and the anti lock acting a little bit more weird than what I remember. With the big elevation changes, the 5 mile track at Thunderhill is tough on brakes...still didn't have any issues, just felt different than Sonoma a month ago.

I think it might even be a little more complicated for the Gen 5 guys since the brakes and the clutch all share the same fluid (If I understand how the new system works) compared to previous generations.

Regardless of the cost or type of brake fluid used, I would think most pro race teams and guys really pushing their cars hard on the track flush the system after every race. Since most Vipers weigh at least as much as larger race cars and have as much if not more power, the brakes take a beating especially if the driver is aggressive. Any ACR-X racers out there car to comment?

[Simms]

Thanks everyone, appreciate the info.

I'm getting lazy, is their a good brake bleeder anyone recommends? I'm tired of the pump, open, close method. Need a bleeder I can do this in my own.

[lmcgrew79]

Motive Pressure Bleeder.

[Redx]

Thanks! Good to know! I was thinking the usual RR, RL, FR, FL.

Is this the bleeding order for a gen iv? i am about to flush mine with some motul rbf600.

[lmcgrew79]

Is this the bleeding order for a gen iv? i am about to flush mine with some motul rbf600.

Yes

[serpent]

I looked up the Castrol srf.... holy shit you guys aren't kidding!!!

I wonder if amsoil has an equivalent?

[TexasTonka]

Amsoil does have a good brake fluid. I am a Amsoil dealer as well, but I use the SRF. Amsoil 600 is comparable to the Motul 600/660 and a bit less money.

My personal reason to use SRF is the wet boiling point. I try and flush my brakes and clutch at least once a year if not twice. But as soon as that fluid cap is cracked it starts absorbing moisture. SRF has teh highest wet boiling point out of any fluid I know. Dry boiling point may not be the highest but my fluid is not 100% dry for very long in the humid heat of Texas. Here si a chart of brake fluids sorted by WET boiling points from worst to best:

ARRANGED BY WET BOILING POINT:

DRY:500F -- WET:???F --- FORD HEAVY DUTY DOT 3 PM-1C (new since 2006)
DRY:590F -- WET:???F --- TILTON TBR-1 ($11.95/0.25L) (new since 2006)
DRY:622F -- WET:???F --- TILTON TSR-1 ($17.95/0.25L) (new since 2006)
DRY:626F -- WET:???F --- FERODO FSF050 Super Race Brake Fluid (new since 2009)
DRY:401F -- WET:284F --- DOT3 MINIMUM
DRY:570F -- WET:284F --- WILWOOD 570
DRY:570F -- WET:284F --- PERFORMANCE Friction Z rated
DRY:550F -- WET:284F --- FORD HEAVY DUTY DOT 3
DRY:527F -- WET:302F --- AP RACING 551
DRY:446F -- WET:311F --- DOT4 MINIMUM
DRY:527F -- WET:347F --- VALVOLINE SYNPOWER DOT3 & DOT4
DRY:500F -- WET:356F --- DOT5.1 MINIMUM (GLYCOL BASE)
DRY:500F -- WET:356F --- DOT5 MINIMUM (SILICONE BASE)
DRY:536F -- WET:388F --- ATE SUPERBLUE/TYP200
DRY:608F -- WET:390F --- AP RACING PRF660
DRY:601F -- WET:399F --- BREMBO LCF 600 PLUS
DRY:617F -- WET:399F --- MOTUL RBF 660
DRY:572F -- WET:410F --- AP RACING 600
DRY:580F -- WET:410F --- AMSOIL Series 600 DOT 4 Racing Brake Fluid
DRY:626F -- WET:417F --- WILWOOD EXP 600
DRY:593F -- WET:421F --- MOTUL RBF 600
DRY:610F -- WET:421F --- NEO SYNTHETICS SUPER DOT 610
DRY:613F -- WET:424F --- ENDLESS RF-650
DRY:635F -- WET:430F --- PROJECT MU G/FOUR 335
DRY:683F -- WET:439F --- PROSPEED RS683 (new since 2010)
DRY:590F -- WET:518F --- CASTROL SRF

Some fluids on the manufacturer's web site did not specify wet boiling point, so used the relevant DOT 3 value.

Water absorption:
DOT 3: This brake fluid has a glycol base with additives. It is clear to amber in color. It is hygroscopic (meaning it absorbs moisture) and has a minimum dry boiling point of 401F (205C) minimum and a minimum wet boiling point of 284F (140C). It will absorb 1 to 2 percent of water per year depending on climate and operating conditions.

Castrol SRF remains as always the Wet boiling champ. I don't know of any other new ones.

Now of course boiling temp is not the only thing to consider, as compressibility, water absorption rate, recovery, viscosity index, etc all play a part. But without a brake dyno, that data is hard to get.

[lmcgrew79]

Yeah basically if you dont feel like flushing as often run srf, if your doing it alot, any of the dot 4's are pretty good.

[01sapphirebob]

Thanks everyone, appreciate the info.

I'm getting lazy, is their a good brake bleeder anyone recommends? I'm tired of the pump, open, close method. Need a bleeder I can do this in my own.


Ive furchased a Mityvac with the brake bleeder adapter. We'll se how it goes. :)

[Simms]

Since the clutch shares the same reservoir, how does this affect bleeding and flushing the brake fluid?

[01sapphirebob]

Not sure exactly.

The way the mityvac brake bleeder kit works is you hook the brake bleeder adapter up to the bleeder screw on the caliper, attach the other end to the mityvac, pump up the mityvac, crack open the bleeder screw and then open the valve on the bleeder adapter. You will see it pull out the old fluid and any air bubbles in the system. Once you have new fluid and no air bubbles close bleeder screw and then close valve on the brake bleeder adapter.

[lmcgrew79]

Motive power bleeder is what i use. Much better than the mityvac.

[FLATOUT]

Motive power bleeder is what i use. Much better than the mityvac.

What I use as well.

[Simms]

What I use as well.

What model number did you get? Their application guide gave me a headache.

[Redx]

http://www.motiveproducts.com/frame-application.htm

I ordered the 1103 chrysler kit, according to the chart its the right one.

[Stealth]

If there is an easy, one-person way to safely flush the brakes and clutch on a Gen V using a speed bleeder, I would love to hear about it! Thus far, I have always left this to the dealer.

Thanks!

[ViperGeorge]

3/4 Bottles. GEN 5 also uses a diagonal split hydraulic system instead of front/rear split. Bleeding procedure is right rear, left front, left rear right front.

This is incorrect. I spoke with an SRT engineer and he assures me that the set up on the Gen 5 is still front/rear split not a cross split.

[Rapidrezults]

I bled mine as a front/rear split so I hope you're right George! The motive power bleeder is the way to go. It makes it so easy you actually want to change your fluid more often!

[ViperGeorge]

I bled mine as a front/rear split so I hope you're right George! The motive power bleeder is the way to go. It makes it so easy you actually want to change your fluid more often!

The engineer also said he does not actually care which order you bleed the calipers. He said it really doesn't make any difference despite what people think.

[lmcgrew79]

Ill agree that the procedure dont matter that much just bleeding. If swapping out all fluid it just helps from cross contaminating the fluids. On the diagonal split, go bleed the fluid out of the master cylinder and when it gets low see which reservoir it sucks from.

[TA Two Oh]

Do we need to worry about the old fluid (or possibly air) in the ABS pump? I think some shops have an ABS scan tool or something to cycle the ABS pump when they change brake fluid. It sounds like a good idea to me but ???

[lmcgrew79]

Only if you introduce air into the master cylinder reservoir.

[Steve M]

As long as you don't let the system (more specifically, the ABS module) run dry, cycling the ABS pump is not required, although I'm sure there are those that would recommend it regardless. Personally, I've never done it on any of my cars that I've bled with a Motive Power Bleeder, including my Gen 4 where I did a complete caliper swap (color change) where the calipers were completely dry (the lines and reservoir were all still filled though).

[FLATOUT]

Just put fresh Motul in my TA this afternoon. Easy breezy, I'll do the Gen 1 tomorrow.

[Simms]

Just put fresh Motul in my TA this afternoon. Easy breezy, I'll do the Gen 1 tomorrow.

Which way did you bleed?

[FLATOUT]

Which way did you bleed?

Furthest away to the closest, but I'm sure the diagonal way is great as well.

[TA Two Oh]

Thanks, Steve M and lcmcgrew

[esm_viper]

Sorry to bring up an old thread, but I'm going to COTA in February and will be changing out the brake fluid. I've got a few questions...

1. Are you guys taking the wheels off the car?
2. What fluid are you changing back to after the track?

[Steve M]

I'll answer #1 - you'll definitely need to take the wheels off the car...it'd be way too tight to get to both bleeders any other way.

[Rapidrezults]

Sorry to bring up an old thread, but I'm going to COTA in February and will be changing out the brake fluid. I've got a few questions...

1. Are you guys taking the wheels off the car?
2. What fluid are you changing back to after the track?

I wouldn't change your fluid back to anything but what you're planning on running for the track. Unless you plan on never tracking again or not wanting to flush your fluid more often. Switch to Motul, Castrol or any other high quality fluid and never look back.

[lmcgrew79]

If you have a lift you can do it without taking the wheels off, a bit of a pain and just as easy to take the wheels off, but you should always bleed the inside of the caliper first followed by the outside.

[darbgnik]

If you have a lift you can do it without taking the wheels off, a bit of a pain and just as easy to take the wheels off, but you should always bleed the inside of the caliper first followed by the outside.

Hmmm, was wondering about this very thing tonight actually, thanks for the tip.

[esm_viper]

Awesome, thanks for the replies. I do plan on tracking the car as often as I can, which may only be 2 - 3 times a year.

So can I get away with changing the fluid once a year if I use the Castrol SRF? Or does it need to be changed after each track day?

[01sapphirebob]

Awesome, thanks for the replies. I do plan on tracking the cat as often as I can, which may only be 2 - 3 times a year.

So can I get away with changing the fluid once a year if I use the Castrol SRF? Or does it need to be changed after each track day?

I think most of the hardcore track guys will say the fluid should be changed after every event. Especially if you're running the car hard. I'm sure that goes for almost all the fluids. Brake, clutch, oil, diff, maybe trans?

[Stealth]

SRF ĺasts!

[LmeaViper]

If you have a lift you can do it without taking the wheels off, a bit of a pain and just as easy to take the wheels off, but you should always bleed the inside of the caliper first followed by the outside.

Why is that? Inside then outside?

[lmcgrew79]

Why is that? Inside then outside?

Mainly because if you do the outside first and just bleeding off your pulling some from the inside. If doing a full flush it really dont matter.

[Policy Limits]

How frequently should they be flushed on a non tracked car? Every 3 years?

[01sapphirebob]

How frequently should they be flushed on a non tracked car? Every 3 years?

I do all my fluids every three years except clutch. I will do that every end of driving season now along with the oil.

[esm_viper]

Getting ready to swap out the fluid this weekend. How exactly are you guys replacing the fluid when using the pressure bleeder?

1. Are you opening the bleed screws on ALL of the calipers at the same time and letting all of the fluid drain before using the pressure bleeder to add more fluid?

Or

2. Are you opening bleed screws on 1 caliper, adding the new fluid with the pressure bleeder, closing the bleed screw once fluid starts coming out then moving to the next caliper?

[PTP]

Getting ready to swap out the fluid this weekend. How exactly are you guys replacing the fluid when using the pressure bleeder?

1. Are you opening the bleed screws on ALL of the calipers at the same time and letting all of the fluid drain before using the pressure bleeder to add more fluid?

Or

2. Are you opening bleed screws on 1 caliper, adding the new fluid with the pressure bleeder, closing the bleed screw once fluid starts coming out then moving to the next caliper?

On my previous cars I would connect the pressure bleeder to the reservoir, pump up the pressure to 40 psi, then go around each caliper one at a time bleeding until I saw fresh fluid.

[esm_viper]

Got it, that's what I needed to know. Thanks!

[cashcorn]

Is there a separate bleed for the clutch?

[esm_viper]

Is there a separate bleed for the clutch?

From the searches I've done, I don't think so. I couldn't even find anything about bleeding the clutch. I guess it's not an issue and get's bled with the brake fluid since they share a reservoir.

[ACR Steve]

Pass rear inner then outer, Drivers same procedure , Passenger front same, drivers front that order

[AZTVR]

Is there a separate bleed for the clutch?

driveviper.com/forums/threads/8171-Clutch-bleed-screw (http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/8171-Clutch-bleed-screw)

[Arizona Vipers]

Interesting.............. Saves a lot of time jacking up one side at a time versus jacking it up 4 times.....

[SRZ]

I just had the brake fluid changed at the local Dodge Dealer. I know the manual states that you need DOT4 fluid. When I reviewed the invoice when I got home, it shows that they used DOT3 brake fluid. I don't track my car. Is DOT3 brake fluid going to cause any problem?

[darbgnik]

I just had the brake fluid changed at the local Dodge Dealer. I know the manual states that you need DOT4 fluid. When I reviewed the invoice when I got home, it shows that they used DOT3 brake fluid. I don't track my car. Is DOT3 brake fluid going to cause any problem?

Well, technically they're compatible, but DOT3 can't handle nearly as much heat. Even for seriously spirited driving, I'd feel better with DOT4. Seeing as you paid them for the flush, they should replace it with the correct DOT4 for free, and I'd make them do it.

Your car isn't unsafe at the moment though, if that's what you're asking.

[AZTVR]

I just had the brake fluid changed at the local Dodge Dealer. I know the manual states that you need DOT4 fluid. When I reviewed the invoice when I got home, it shows that they used DOT3 brake fluid. I don't track my car. Is DOT3 brake fluid going to cause any problem?


Well, technically they're compatible, but DOT3 can't handle nearly as much heat. Even for seriously spirited driving, I'd feel better with DOT4. Seeing as you paid them for the flush, they should replace it with the correct DOT4 for free, and I'd make them do it.

Your car isn't unsafe at the moment though, if that's what you're asking.

Just as an FYI: The difference between DOT 3 and DOT 4 is not as straight forward as just the higher boiling point spec on DOT 4. StopTech has a good tech note talking about it: http://www.stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers/brake-fluid

A relevant part that stuck in my head was:
This does not mean that DOT 4 fluids are necessarily better than DOT 3 fluids. Remember, the boiling points listed are minimums. There are certain DOT 3 fluids with higher boiling points than some DOT 4 fluids. The real differentiating factor is that DOT 4 fluid should be changed more often than a DOT 3 fluid, because of the effects and rates of water absorption.

[SADVIPER]

Just finished the manual pumping method and upgraded the whole system with SS lines and SRF. Let's see how it will feel while bedding!

[dmann]

3/4 Bottles. GEN 5 also uses a diagonal split hydraulic system instead of front/rear split. Bleeding procedure is right rear, left front, left rear right front.

Are these the pint bottles?

[LmeaViper]

Are these the pint bottles?

I just bled mine ~ 2 months ago and the fluid I used was a different color then the kind I had in the car. It took three (500 ml) bottles to completely flush the system. However, when I swapped the fluid in the past, I used 4 bottles as I wasn't 100% sure I had all the old fluid out, so you end up bleeding more.

[dmann]

thanks

[kuishe]

Got myself the MPB that most of you & from all over praises & gonna do the brakes soon! PTP saids he pumps to 40 psi, that's nut! ppl in general do 9-15 psi. Someone on youtube even saids the reservoir is not meant to take a lot of pressure so this is good for us all to know, it cracks or pops then it's GG!

Standard procedure is to suck old fluid out of the reservoir 1st, but at which level should I stop to avoid air in the system? At the min line?

Also I will be extra careful & shouldn't get any fluid onto the calipers but if it does, what should I use to clean that for sure won't hurt the paint while 100% dissolving the fluid at the same time without any after worries at all? I aint risking it with general brake cleaner. Did a search on google too, I'm surprised something this critical is not talked about & care much for...

Lastly how tight should the nipples be? Are they torque specified? Does the service manual says anything about this?