2014 Viper T/A + Arrow PCM dyno

[hova00]

I just recently had my Arrow PCM installed on my T/A and was able to get it to the dyno right after to get some dyno#'s before my ARH headers go on in a week. I wasn't able to get a before and after from stock pcm to the Arrow pcm at this time but plan on switching back to the stock pcm and dynoing again before my header install.

My 1st impressions after the Arrow pcm was the sound of the car changed for the better and couldn't believe that it made such a difference in that dept. along with not having all of the black soot to clean from the exhaust on the outlets anymore since it is running much leaner.

Car made 559whp/530 ft. lbs and this is SAE#'s here is a short video of it


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaWmfbpvcTM


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=creecR1HbFM

[Steve M]

It's amazing what adding a little timing and leaning these cars out can do...those are nice numbers.

[viper04]

Nice, please keep us posted.

[serpent]

is the upgrade noticeable when accelerating?
2nd video is private.

I know i have a long way to go as far as learning these gen V's, but is there a reason Dodge overrated the engine power numbers? @559rwhp, with a 12% drivetrain loss that is 626hp.

[Jack B]

Use 15% for ir cars


is the upgrade noticeable when accelerating?
2nd video is private.

I know i have a long way to go as far as learning these gen V's, but is there a reason Dodge overrated the engine power numbers? @559rwhp, with a 12% drivetrain loss that is 626hp.

[serpent]

^ Thanks, that makes perfect sense. :o

[SammutRacing]

Nice #s. Was it a mustang dyno or dynojet?

[WDW MKR]

is the upgrade noticeable when accelerating?
2nd video is private.

I know i have a long way to go as far as learning these gen V's, but is there a reason Dodge overrated the engine power numbers? @559rwhp, with a 12% drivetrain loss that is 626hp.

Using 12% loss gives you 635 bhp @ 559 rwhp. Drivetrain loss of 15% equates to 657 bhp.

[hova00]

Nice #s. Was it a mustang dyno or dynojet?

Dynojet was used

[1.8t]

I know i have a long way to go as far as learning these gen V's, but is there a reason Dodge overrated the engine power numbers? @559rwhp, with a 12% drivetrain loss that is 626hp.

I know you have already read the others posts, but don't forget the rear gear in this car eats more power than usual since it is a 3.55.

[hova00]

don't know if it matters but the shop didn't turn off the traction control

[mjorgensen]

don't know if it matters but the shop didn't turn off the traction control

It does matter, the traction needs to be off, the stability can stay on though. After a few pulls the ESC service light and ABS will light up and after that it won't matter. Both lights will reset after you drive a little bit on the road.

[hova00]

I didn't see any service lights right after it came off the dyno so maybe the guy did turn it off. This shop is a big corvette shop so they don't see to many vipers.

[swexlin]

Dynojet was used

Looking good. Is RPM going to do your header install as well?

[hova00]

Looking good. Is RPM going to do your header install as well?

RPM will be doing the header install. I don't have any real experience with them or their work but came recommended from Steve@ARH

[Orange TA]

Are you sure the Arrow PCM has been installed already? The reason I ask is because bone stock Gen Vs typically put down around the same numbers on the same dyno (Dynojet). For example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrTyJXIyeEY

[Nine Ball]

Are you sure the Arrow PCM has been installed already? The reason I ask is because bone stock Gen Vs typically put down around the same numbers on the same dyno (Dynojet). For example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrTyJXIyeEY

Every dyno is different. They aren't intended for cross country comparisons. Only before/after gains on the same dyno matter.

[Orange TA]

Other dynos I'd tend to agree with you. But you absolutely can compare numbers from one specific Dynojet model to another, provided you use the same correction factor.


Every dyno is different. They aren't intended for cross country comparisons. Only before/after gains on the same dyno matter.

[Junkie]

Conditions still change. I know I've had cars in the past on the same dyno weeks apart, same correction factory, same tire, same mods, different number….

[Orange TA]

That's more than likely something in the car changing rather than the dyno. While to you, nothing may have changed with the car, there's a lot that can change without you knowing it. Engines can gain or lose power from breaking in or from components wearing out, such as piston rings leading to less compression. Tons of other variables too such as on a turbo car temperature can affect boost pressure along with other parts of the tune. I know you've had some pretty high horsepower cars in the past so these kinds of things would affect you even more, not to mention say 20whp difference on one day at the dyno compared to the next is not huge if the car is making let's say 1500whp. That 20whp may sound like a big number to be off on the dyno but it only represents a change of 1.3% on a 1500whp car. 20whp on a 500whp car would of course have 3x much impact, as it would represent a 4% difference.

Bottomline is when you're comparing more or less stock cars like a gen v, it's going to dyno pretty damn consistently on a Dynojet, whether that Dynojet is in California or Tokyo or wherever, just as long as it's the same model Dynojet and you're using the same correction factor. Any variances are more likely related to changes with the car, such as my examples above.


Conditions still change. I know I've had cars in the past on the same dyno weeks apart, same correction factory, same tire, same mods, different number….

[hova00]

Are you sure the Arrow PCM has been installed already? The reason I ask is because bone stock Gen Vs typically put down around the same numbers on the same dyno (Dynojet). For example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrTyJXIyeEY

You cant compare #'s from 2 dynos from different places. The video you posted is funny because it shows them disconnecting the ecu before they dyno the car don't really know what that is about.

Either way car is going back with stock PCM to see what my gains are from the Arrow racing PCM. I could care less what the dyno #'s are Iam just using them for a measurement of my gains with each mod.

[Orange TA]

Read my reply to "Nine Ball" above. You absolutely can compare numbers from one Dynojet to another, assuming that it's the same model Dynojet and the same correction factor is used. That's one of the nice things about Dynojets.

To further validate my point, if you look around this forum and the Internet, you'll see that most stock Gen Vs dyno within the same 5-10whp on a Dynojet, regardless of where they're located. The lower numbers are most likely from "green" motors, not the dyno itself. Either way, the numbers have been surprisingly consistent. And yours is right there with the rest of the stock Gen V cars which is odd considering you have the Arrow PCM installed.


You cant compare #'s from 2 dynos from different places. The video you posted is funny because it shows them disconnecting the ecu before they dyno the car don't really know what that is about.

Either way car is going back with stock PCM to see what my gains are from the Arrow racing PCM. I could care less what the dyno #'s are Iam just using them for a measurement of my gains with each mod.

[Gonabite]

Read my reply to "Nine Ball" above. You absolutely can compare numbers from one Dynojet to another, assuming that it's the same model Dynojet and the same correction factor is used. That's one of the nice things about Dynojets.

To further validate my point, if you look around this forum and the Internet, you'll see that most stock Gen Vs dyno within the same 5-10whp on a Dynojet, regardless of where they're located. The lower numbers are most likely from "green" motors, not the dyno itself. Either way, the numbers have been surprisingly consistent. And yours is right there with the rest of the stock Gen V cars which is odd considering you have the Arrow PCM installed.

Sure you can compare, however it does not mean they are accurate comparisons. Regardless if they are the same dyno models and correction factor being used. The size of the rollers that is used on the dynojet changes the equation, the tie down method changes the equation.

Like Junkie said same car same dyno different numbers. Could have been related to how the car was tied down and how tight is was strapped down compared to the last time. The tie down plays a decent roll in your numbers.

[Orange TA]

You're talking about very very trivial differences now. You'll see a bigger difference dynoing the same car on the same exact dyno on the same day from one run to the next, just from external factors beyond your control, such as engine coolant temps climbing.

Again, we're not talking exact comparisons to the precise tenth of a wheel horsepower. But by and large, the premise behind the Dynojet and their claim to fame, is that numbers from one Dynojet to the next are comparable assuming you use the same correction factor. This is not the case for other types of dynos. And generally speaking, the OP is putting down roughly the same WHP as the dozen or so other Gen Vs that were dynoed on a Dynojet except they were all stock with a stock PCM.

[Jack B]

I have to agree with you. The dyno shop that I used on my G1 and G2 was a fabricator for Dynojet. In a five year period they had at least four different dyno's, these were above-ground units and all of them read the same on my car. In addition, when we started tuning the Gen2's back in in 2000-2005, virtually all the cars dyno'ed the same if they had the same mods. Again, this was when the pull was on a Dynojet. In addition, the Dynojet seems to always be 5-7% higher than the Mustang.

The closest dyno shop to me runs a Mustang. When I asked him about the posted hp differences between the Mustang and the Dynojet, he indicated that for those that had previously dyno'ed on a Dynojet, the Mustang has a simulation program that mirrors a Dynojet. He did not recommend it, he was just making a comment.



You're talking about very very trivial differences now. You'll see a bigger difference dynoing the same car on the same exact dyno on the same day from one run to the next, just from external factors beyond your control, such as engine coolant temps climbing.

Again, we're not talking exact comparisons to the precise tenth of a wheel horsepower. But by and large, the premise behind the Dynojet and their claim to fame, is that numbers from one Dynojet to the next are comparable assuming you use the same correction factor. This is not the case for other types of dynos. And generally speaking, the OP is putting down roughly the same WHP as the dozen or so other Gen Vs that were dynoed on a Dynojet except they were all stock with a stock PCM.

[Nine Ball]

Orange TA,

Have you ever operated a Dynojet yourself? Have you ever tuned cars on a Dynojet, yourself? I have, 100x of times, on various cars.

If you have, you'd understand that you don't simply "use the same correction factor". The correction factor is calculated by the software, based on the ambient conditions that are either typed into the software, or measured automatically. You don't get to pick that factor.

Houston has a LOT of dyno shops. Many of them use the popular Dynojet 248 model. Some read notoriously higher, some read lower. The dyno is a tool for measuring before/after gains, not something used for comparing bench racing notes across town. Any time you introduce variables and potential operator or ambient measurement tolerances, results can vary. As mentioned, some shops also do silly tricks to enhance numbers, such as looser straps, more air in the tires, fudged ambient inputs, less smoothing, etc..

So no, don't get into a habit of comparing dynos from different shops. That is simply a bad practice, period.

[Orange TA]

Yes, I have. I've been using them to tune cars since 2001. By "correction factor" I was actually referring to the correction method, such as SAE or STD.


Orange TA,

Have you ever operated a Dynojet yourself? Have you ever tuned cars on a Dynojet, yourself? I have, 100x of times, on various cars.

If you have, you'd understand that you don't simply "use the same correction factor". The correction factor is calculated by the software, based on the ambient conditions that are either typed into the software, or measured automatically. You don't get to pick that factor.

Houston has a LOT of dyno shops. Many of them use the popular Dynojet 248 model. Some read notoriously higher, some read lower. The dyno is a tool for measuring before/after gains, not something used for comparing bench racing notes across town. Any time you introduce variables and potential operator or ambient measurement tolerances, results can vary. As mentioned, some shops also do silly tricks to enhance numbers, such as looser straps, more air in the tires, fudged ambient inputs, less smoothing, etc..

So no, don't get into a habit of comparing dynos from different shops. That is simply a bad practice, period.

[Orange TA]

If it's such "bad practice" to compare numbers from one Dynojet to the next, then why do stock Gen Vs all across the country dyno roughly the same (within 1-2%) on a Dynojet? The proof is in the pudding. Any other dyno, I'd absolutely agree with you. But not the Dynojet.

[Orange TA]

Any variances you've seen from one Dynojet 248 to the next is more likely due to changes in the car rather than the dyno. Rising coolant temps, inadequate cooling, weather conditions affecting boost or other tuning parameters, an engine breaking in with more miles (Gen Vs will make a good bit more power with more miles), etc, etc.

You say the dyno is a tool for measuring before/after gains but on a Dynojet you typically see differences from one run to the next. That's the same day/same car/same dyno/same session. Again, these are differences related to the car, not the dyno itself.

[Nine Ball]

I cannot win an argument with someone who thinks racing dyno sheets across states is valid. Carry on.

[FLATOUT]

If it's such "bad practice" to compare numbers from one Dynojet to the next, then why do stock Gen Vs all across the country dyno roughly the same (within 1-2%) on a Dynojet? The proof is in the pudding. Any other dyno, I'd absolutely agree with you. But not the Dynojet.

Yeah this is a complete bs statement. They are all over the map. I have had my car on probably 4 different dyno jets in the Houston area, a Mustang, and a Land and Sea dyno and they all differ by as much as 60rwhp. Dyno's are literally a tunning tool and nothing else.

Pick a dyno to test all of your mods on or baseline and always go back to that same dyno for the most accurate description of whether or not you're making more or less power post modification or tune.

Watch the TX2K14 dyno day video from last year. Hennesey's dyno is a heart breaker and it's hilarious to see everyone guess what they are going to make, most people coming straight off of their home dyno's where they tune. I was the first victim in that video lol. My car had just made 3 days prior 615rwhp SAE on Serious HP's dyno jet and they it rolls 586 and 599 at Henesseys.

[Orange TA]

You must've missed the entire thread. We're talking about comparing ONLY specific Dynojet dynos, not one type of dyno to another. Of course those vary wildly. Not the case with the Dynojet.


Yeah this is a complete bs statement. They are all over the map. I have had my car on probably 4 different dyno jets in the Houston area, a Mustang, and a Land and Sea dyno and they all differ by as much as 60rwhp. Dyno's are literally a tunning tool and nothing else.

Pick a dyno to test all of your mods on or baseline and always go back to that same dyno for the most accurate description of whether or not you're making more or less power post modification or tune.

Watch the TX2K14 dyno day video from last year. Hennesey's dyno is a heart breaker and it's hilarious to see everyone guess what they are going to make, most people coming straight off of their home dyno's where they tune. I was the first victim in that video lol. My car had just made 3 days prior 615rwhp SAE on Serious HP's dyno jet and they it rolls 586 and 599 at Henesseys.

[FLATOUT]

You must've missed the entire thread. We're talking about comparing ONLY specific Dynojet dynos, not one type of dyno to another. Of course those vary wildly. Not the case with the Dynojet.

Bullshit I listed 4 dynojets in my response to you and those varied just as much.

[Orange TA]

60whp difference from the same type of Dynojet? LOL, sure. You're probably comparing different types of Dynojets. You can't do that.


Bullshit I listed 4 dynojets in my response to you and those varied just as much.

[FLATOUT]

60whp difference from the same type of Dynojet? LOL, sure. You're probably comparing different types of Dynojets. You can't do that.

I just told you that I wasn't (comparing dyno jet numbers to non dynojet numbers. I have been on other machines but I have seen dynojets vary that much as well) so you either aren't reading or will only believe what your own personal experiences have been.

Do you work for Dynojet or something?

[Orange TA]

Read your previous two responses again. You contradicted yourself.

[Viper Girl]

Arrow PCM chat anyone?

Orange TA please stop the dynojet argument this isn't going anywhere productive.

[FLATOUT]

I'll make this very simple for you:

Dyno'd in Houston area on 4 different dynojets and saw as much as a 60rwhp difference between them on same car.

I have also dyno'd on a Mustang, Land & Sea, and Dynopack hubcentric dyno and also seen numbers all over the place.

[Orange TA]

I'll make it even simpler: Post the two dyno graphs from the same car on the two SAME MODEL Dynojets in question. I feel like you guys are just arguing with me for the sake of arguing even though you know you're wrong.

The OP's car makes roughly the same power as 10-15 other stock Gen V cars, all dynoed on Dynojets throughout the country. His car has an Arrow PCM. Something doesn't jive.


I'll make this very simple for you:

Dyno'd in Houston area on 4 different dynojets and saw as much as a 60rwhp difference between them on same car.

I have also dyno'd on a Mustang, Land & Sea, and Dynopack hubcentric dyno and also seen numbers all over the place.

[Viper Girl]

Orange TA, drop the argument, they don't have to prove anything to you... the thread isn't about dynojets.

Lets get back to talking about the arrow pcm, this isn't a forum where arguing for the sake of arguing is ok. Approx half of this thread falls under purposeless inflammatory posts.
Stop now

[plumcrazy]

Yall need to stay on topic

[Orange TA]

This is completely on topic with the OP's car being dynoed on a Dynojet with the Arrow PCM. His car makes the same power as other Gen Vs which are stock, so I'm wondering if there are no real gains to be had with the Arrow PCM unless you have supporting mods, such as headers. That's all.


Orange TA, drop the argument, they don't have to prove anything to you... the thread isn't about dynojets.

Lets get back to talking about the arrow pcm, this isn't a forum where arguing for the sake of arguing is ok. Approx half of this thread falls under purposeless inflammatory posts.
Stop now

[Viper Girl]

Sorry, you are the one who made more than half of this thread about an argument on dynojets. The thread had a productive discussion going on before that argument started, rendering the thread barely readable.
That's not the type of forum this is.

[whitebeard]

Please keep the discussion on target, I was following the conversation until we went off topic.


EDIT: Who is this YALL guy?

[FLATOUT]

Back to the Arrow PCM thanks Mods!

[mjorgensen]

We have seen cars with lower numbers than others stock to stock and even on a car with lower than "should be numbers" the Arrow PCM made +24rwhp so I know it works, there are just some variations between cars out there.

[Jack B]

We eat our own and we are redundant.


Sorry, you are the one who made more than half of this thread about an argument on dynojets. The thread had a productive discussion going on before that argument started, rendering the thread barely readable.
That's not the type of forum this is.

- - - Updated - - -

We eat our own.


Sorry, you are the one who made more than half of this thread about an argument on dynojets. The thread had a productive discussion going on before that argument started, rendering the thread barely readable.
That's not the type of forum this is.

[hova00]

going back wed. for some dyno runs with the stock pcm for a true apples to apples comaparison.

[Jack B]

Watch the IAT and af.



going back wed. for some dyno runs with the stock pcm for a true apples to apples comaparison.

[SammutRacing]

going back wed. for some dyno runs with the stock pcm for a true apples to apples comaparison.

any update?

[hova00]

I did go back but the dyno and got 2 runs with the stock pcm which made 548whp but then the dyno had some problems that they couldn't figure out so I never got to make a pull with the Arrow pcm.

[SammutRacing]

I did go back but the dyno and got 2 runs with the stock pcm which made 548whp but then the dyno had some problems that they couldn't figure out so I never got to make a pull with the Arrow pcm.

ahh ok bummer...

you do the AR headers yet?

[Orange TA]

Didn't you put down 559whp on the same dyno with the Arrow PCM?


I did go back but the dyno and got 2 runs with the stock pcm which made 548whp but then the dyno had some problems that they couldn't figure out so I never got to make a pull with the Arrow pcm.

[hova00]

Yes but different day and different weather conditions.

- - - Updated - - -


ahh ok bummer...

you do the AR headers yet?


Car is at the dealer now getting the headers put on and should be back by the end of the week.

[swexlin]

Yes but different day and different weather conditions.

- - - Updated - - -




Car is at the dealer now getting the headers put on and should be back by the end of the week.

Who's doing it? Jeff at D'Ambrosio? He's THE Viper man around here.

[hova00]

Wayne at David Dodge is doing it.

[Jack B]

The correction factor should make them very close.


Yes but different day and different weather conditions.

- - - Updated - - -




Car is at the dealer now getting the headers put on and should be back by the end of the week.

[hova00]

Well according to them the dynojet they have will compare pulls from previous runs with the ones that you made that day and correct for weather etc. and the arrow pcm would have made 585whp and stock would be 548whp.

[swexlin]

Wayne at David Dodge is doing it.

Cool. Let us know how it turns out. Pics!

[SADVIPER]

Wow I just learned a lil bit about dynos from this thread lol was fun :)
nontheless, Arrow PCM sounds promising so far.

[mjorgensen]

Wow I just learned a lil bit about dynos from this thread lol was fun :)
nontheless, Arrow PCM sounds promising so far.

PCM's in stock when you are ready ;-) they work very well.