Headers

[gfviperman]

Do we have any feedback from owners who have installed American Headers on the Gen Vs?

Are we getting and engine lights from them?

Any dyno numbers before and after?

Thankx!!

[mblgjr]

Rear 02s will need to be off via HP tuners software or use of Arrow PCM.

Havent seen but a couple sheets; worth about 30rwhp over a good tune. Tune+headers is approx 60rwhp total over stock.

Round figures.

Headers alone will set the c.e.l. and makes no sense to bother doing the headers without a proper a/f adjustment anyway.

[Dman]

Wow, really? If that's the case then Belangers has a real advantage in yielding 30rwhp and no CEL issues with stock tune. Add Venom or HPT and 60rwhp.

Not sure anyone would do AR headers if they give a CEL and there's no HP advantage.

[1.8t]

You should absolutely be able to use ARH headers with cats and not throw a CEL on the stock ECU. I will be doing exactly this.

As for installing them, HUGE pain in the ass. Bellangers install much easier. The 2 piece design is a nightmare and when you combine that with some QA issues, it makes me question if ARH was the right choice for me. Hopefully the numbers are worth it.

[FLATOUT]

Although 1.8t hates the install on the ARH's, I personally find them much easier to install than the Tri Y designs. I have installed every major brand header on a viper and multiple times, and I find the ARH's to be the easiest.

Both designs have their drawbacks as far as installs are concerned but both designs aren't difficult once you get a little experience installing them.


You should absolutely be able to use ARH headers with cats and not throw a CEL on the stock ECU. I will be doing exactly this.

As for installing them, HUGE pain in the ass. Bellangers install much easier. The 2 piece design is a nightmare and when you combine that with some QA issues, it makes me question if ARH was the right choice for me. Hopefully the numbers are worth it.

[Reaper]

Ive done some research on this as well since I want to add the AR headers to my car at some point. The AR headers are stainless steel and the Belangers are aluminized. Id much rather have stainless on an exhaust product. That and the AR headers seem to be cheaper. Im sure both will make nice gains over stock though but Im leaning AR. Ive seen some of their headers up close and the quality is first rate.

[Gonabite]

Although 1.8t hates the install on the ARH's, I personally find them much easier to install than the Tri Y designs. I have installed every major brand header on a viper and multiple times, and I find the ARH's to be the easiest.

Both designs have their drawbacks as far as installs are concerned but both designs aren't difficult once you get a little experience installing them.

Having used the ARH, do you get a CEL while using the stock ECM?

[FLATOUT]

Having used the ARH, do you get a CEL while using the stock ECM?

I pulled the cats and run HPTuners.

[Jack B]

Why do you prefer the SS?



Ive done some research on this as well since I want to add the AR headers to my car at some point. The AR headers are stainless steel and the Belangers are aluminized. Id much rather have stainless on an exhaust product. That and the AR headers seem to be cheaper. Im sure both will make nice gains over stock though but Im leaning AR. Ive seen some of their headers up close and the quality is first rate.

[Steve M]

Ive done some research on this as well since I want to add the AR headers to my car at some point. The AR headers are stainless steel and the Belangers are aluminized. Id much rather have stainless on an exhaust product. That and the AR headers seem to be cheaper. Im sure both will make nice gains over stock though but Im leaning AR. Ive seen some of their headers up close and the quality is first rate.

I see this stainless vs. aluminized steel debate a lot, and I'm not sure it is really justified on a car like a Viper. Very few people daily drive these cars, almost all of them never see the snow/salt, and the most moisture a lot of them sees comes from the end of a hose. The primary benefit of stainless is protection against corrosion, but I just don't see that being an issue with a Viper.

Personally, I can't stand how uncoated stainless headers look after a few heat cycles...that nasty rust brown color just doesn't look good at all under the hood. If I ever go with a stainless header, I'll likely have it coated just so I don't have to see it.

As long as the coating is good quality, aluminized steel will hold up just fine to the elements.

[Dman]

I see this stainless vs. aluminized steel debate a lot, and I'm not sure it is really justified on a car like a Viper. Very few people daily drive these cars, almost all of them never see the snow/salt, and the most moisture a lot of them sees comes from the end of a hose. The primary benefit of stainless is protection against corrosion, but I just don't see that being an issue with a Viper.

Personally, I can't stand how uncoated stainless headers look after a few heat cycles...that nasty rust brown color just doesn't look good at all under the hood. If I ever go with a stainless header, I'll likely have it coated just so I don't have to see it.

As long as the coating is good quality, aluminized steel will hold up just fine to the elements.


Agreed, maybe if we're talking a truck that's going to do 300K miles. I've had stainless and alum on all my different cars thru the years, if anything the stainless looks a little worse for wear, but I've never had them be disappointing in perf or looks with tens of thousands of miles, from vipers to mustangs to bimmers. I have had s coating fail years ago, which turned me off of coatings, but that I assume was just a bad coater issue. But, either way, we have great options.

I think the big question is if we're seeing CELs with ARH, I hadn't heard that before & am surprised if that's the case.

[FLATOUT]

I have never had a stainless steel header on any of my cars turn a "nasty rusty brown color".


I see this stainless vs. aluminized steel debate a lot, and I'm not sure it is really justified on a car like a Viper. Very few people daily drive these cars, almost all of them never see the snow/salt, and the most moisture a lot of them sees comes from the end of a hose. The primary benefit of stainless is protection against corrosion, but I just don't see that being an issue with a Viper.

Personally, I can't stand how uncoated stainless headers look after a few heat cycles...that nasty rust brown color just doesn't look good at all under the hood. If I ever go with a stainless header, I'll likely have it coated just so I don't have to see it.

As long as the coating is good quality, aluminized steel will hold up just fine to the elements.

[Steve M]

I have...you can see the primaries in this picture from my old Camaro:

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/FuelRails005.jpg

Those were Kooks stainless headers. I'll see if I can find pics of them after I pulled them off.

[FLATOUT]

That doesn't look like rust to me, but heat cycled stainless.



I have...you can see the primaries in this picture from my old Camaro:

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/FuelRails005.jpg

Those were Kooks stainless headers. I'll see if I can find pics of them after I pulled them off.

[ViperGeorge]

I'm installing Bellangers on my 2015 TA 2.0 once it gets here. I had ARH headers on my 09 ACR. Two problems with the ARH headers in my experience. One, leaks can develop where the collector mates to the manifold piece in their two piece design. This is a real pain in the a$$. Second, every single person I know that has had the ARH headers have cooked the wires to the downstream O2 sensors resulting in a CEL and blown ASD fuse. With the Mopar controller you can eliminate the downstream O2s but with the stock PCM you will eventually melt the wires and I don't care how well you insulate them. I used DEI 1500 degree wrap and they still melted. Not sure if you would have the same problem on a Gen 5.

[FLATOUT]

On my Gen V the down stream O2's are nowhere near being able to be "burned" by the turnout section. I also wrap my O2 wires in DEI 1500 on any brand of header, and also carefully route and tie everything out of the way to prevent that from happening. who knows but from running and installing all of the different brands over the years I will say that there are two major differences between the two styles that really matter to most as the all make VERY similar power.

1. Install ( I find the ARH's easier some find them harder, it is what it is)
2. Mild Steel vs. Stainless

Everything else is academic. As for the leaking at the collectors the only issue I ever had with leaks was on a Try Y header where the bolts loosened up at the collector to turnout. I have always had better luck with fasteners on the ARH's but that's just my experience.

Sometimes I think a lot of the problems that develop has to do with install tips and tricks that help prevent some of these issues as you put more miles on the cars.


I'm installing Bellangers on my 2015 TA 2.0 once it gets here. I had ARH headers on my 09 ACR. Two problems with the ARH headers in my experience. One, leaks can develop where the collector mates to the manifold piece in their two piece design. This is a real pain in the a$$. Second, every single person I know that has had the ARH headers have cooked the wires to the downstream O2 sensors resulting in a CEL and blown ASD fuse. With the Mopar controller you can eliminate the downstream O2s but with the stock PCM you will eventually melt the wires and I don't care how well you insulate them. I used DEI 1500 degree wrap and they still melted. Not sure if you would have the same problem on a Gen 5.

[KB Viper]

i have american racing headers on mine with high flow cats (everything ceramic coated) and a tune and i'm just at 600 to the tire on 91.

[ViperGeorge]

I also wrapped the wires with DEI 1500 and tied them as far from the exhaust as possible. On a Gen 4 this did not matter. I know of at least 3 others that have had the same exact problem. All 4 of us melted the wires and blew fuses. Even with the Mopar PCM installed if you melt the wires you will blow a fuse because the heater wire is still live even though the Mopar PCM doesn't look at the output of the downstream O2. Once you blow the ASD fuse the car will barely run. Steve Louden during One Lap melted his wires and threw 23 engine codes, he was using ARH headers with the Mopar PCM but had kept the downstream O2s in place. Once the O2s are removed the bung plugged there are no further problems. Maybe it is different on a Gen 5.

[FLATOUT]

Well melting an O2 wire has nothing to do with what ECU you run Mopar or stock. I ran them on my Gen IV and tracked the car with them and also never had an issue. They also run ARH headers on every ACRX that ran in the Viper cup series and I have never heard of this being some sort of systemic issue.

There is a finite amount of space in that area be it gen IV or V, and if you are running a 3 inch turnout pipe either ARH or Ballenger it will occupy the exact same amount of space. So your next issue then is does one brand put out more heat than another brand? Possibly? But again nothing is going to put out more heat than the ARH's that were on the ACRX Viper Cup cars and it wasn't an issue for them so who knows.

I can tell you that I have run my TA at COTA, Autocross, and the drag strip and the O2 wires look just like the day they did when I put them on.


I also wrapped the wires with DEI 1500 and tied them as far from the exhaust as possible. On a Gen 4 this did not matter. I know of at least 3 others that have had the same exact problem. All 4 of us melted the wires and blew fuses. Even with the Mopar PCM installed if you melt the wires you will blow a fuse because the heater wire is still live even though the Mopar PCM doesn't look at the output of the downstream O2. Once you blow the ASD fuse the car will barely run. Steve Louden during One Lap melted his wires and threw 23 engine codes, he was using ARH headers with the Mopar PCM but had kept the downstream O2s in place. Once the O2s are removed the bung plugged there are no further problems. Maybe it is different on a Gen 5.

[Steve M]

That doesn't look like rust to me, but heat cycled stainless.

Never said it was actual rust, but it sure as hell is rust colored, hence my description. Heat cycled stainless looks like garbage IMO...those headers were replaced by a ceramic coated set.

[FLATOUT]

Never said it was actual rust, but it sure as hell is rust colored, hence my description. Heat cycled stainless looks like garbage IMO...those headers were replaced by a ceramic coated set.

Understand, but for some reason mine don't look like that. Looks more like a Stainless Motorcycle exhaust.

[ViperGeorge]

Well melting an O2 wire has nothing to do with what ECU you run Mopar or stock. I ran them on my Gen IV and tracked the car with them and also never had an issue. They also run ARH headers on every ACRX that ran in the Viper cup series and I have never heard of this being some sort of systemic issue.

There is a finite amount of space in that area be it gen IV or V, and if you are running a 3 inch turnout pipe either ARH or Ballenger it will occupy the exact same amount of space. So your next issue then is does one brand put out more heat than another brand? Possibly? But again nothing is going to put out more heat than the ARH's that were on the ACRX Viper Cup cars and it wasn't an issue for them so who knows.

I can tell you that I have run my TA at COTA, Autocross, and the drag strip and the O2 wires look just like the day they did when I put them on.

The ACR-X does not run a downstream O2 hence no problem. The PCM does make a difference as with the Mopar unit you can remove the downstream O2s and not have an issue. With them removed there is no chance of melting the wires. With the stock PCM you must leave the downstream O2s in or the car will set a CEL due to cat efficiency failing. You must be lucky to not have burnt the wires. I burned them several times until I realized that the Mopar PCM allowed me to remove them.

[FLATOUT]

I guess me and the 4 others in Houston that run these Headers and track our cars regularly are "lucky" not trying to be a dick I just haven't seen that happen as you have. Not saying it doesn't happen I just haven't run into that situation with them.


The ACR-X does not run a downstream O2 hence no problem. The PCM does make a difference as with the Mopar unit you can remove the downstream O2s and not have an issue. With them removed there is no chance of melting the wires. With the stock PCM you must leave the downstream O2s in or the car will set a CEL due to cat efficiency failing. You must be lucky to not have burnt the wires. I burned them several times until I realized that the Mopar PCM allowed me to remove them.

[ViperGeorge]

I guess me and the 4 others in Houston that run these Headers and track our cars regularly are "lucky" not trying to be a dick I just haven't seen that happen as you have. Not saying it doesn't happen I just haven't run into that situation with them.

Are you running them on a Gen 4 or a Gen 5? A Gen 5 install may be different than a Gen 4. I've had the problem on a Gen 4; I have not installed them on a Gen 5 yet.

[FLATOUT]

Are you running them on a Gen 4 or a Gen 5? A Gen 5 install may be different than a Gen 4. I've had the problem on a Gen 4; I have not installed them on a Gen 5 yet.

I have run them on both (Gen IV and V) without any issues at the track and street. Ralph Gilles also runs them on his Gen V with cats. That's good enough for me.

[JonB ~ PartsRack]

Trivia relevant to discussion:


The ACR-X is a race car that has virtually all "Street Meltables" removed from the car. (Stainless Steel runs 200f+ hotter than Aluminized even before it is coated. Belangers are significanly cooler in operation.)

Belanger actually-factually received the first-choice purchase order from SRT for the ACR-X, but Lou Belanger was unable to fulfill the short-window deadline for the first 25 cars. American Racing was SRTs 2nd choice, but AR committed to produce 25 faster. At this point only 17 -Xs were sold, and AR did meet that #. SRT was NOT concerned of the factual, extra heat, due the stripped-down nature of the -X. On a Spec-series race car, just so everyone has the same products, NO PROBLEM on the Heat Penalty, since all cars have it! It would be 'illegal' in Viper Cup Rules to substitute Belangers.....

[FLATOUT]

Been Keating also has been running ARH's on his White TA mule that they helped used to develop many of the Tomball/Arrow products and the issue has not come up either. He also tracked the car at COTA with us, without issue.

[serpent]

Does anyone have estimated install times of these headers (lift or jackstands, extra helping hands)? I'm guessing they should be around the same time since you will be replacing the stock setup.

[FLATOUT]

Do you have have estimated install times of these headers (lift or jackstands, extra helping hands)? I'm guessing they should be around the same time since you will be replacing the stock setup.

All depends on the installer. I would say you could do it on a Saturday if you like. I usually work on them a few hours a night throughout a week and really take my time to insulate wiring and things of that nature.

[Steve M]

Along the lines of the Belanger vs. ARH header debate, the one thing I've found interesting of late is how well Belanger header cars seem to be running on the street during spirited driving events. The 5-into-1 design of the ARH headers seems to put down better dyno numbers (at least marginally), but the cars with the tri-y Belangers seem to do quite well where it matters. Mark Jorgensen has alluded to this in the past, and it always made me wonder if there was something to the tri-y + pickle design... it just seems to work.

[J TNT]

Is there much benefit to ceramic coating the AR Headers to lower under hood temps , and lower intake temps ?

[FLATOUT]

He alluded to that in the one video posted on the internet with both cars on the same track at the same time, one of which was MY CAR, and my video running COTA with NAMBO. On that same day a driver with much more experience than I (Ben Keating) beat both or our lap times in his Bolton TA with ARH's on his Corsa street tires.

What was not mentioned was that the Belanger car was entering the straight in 2nd gear, at a higher corner exit speed on Hoosiers, and I was entering the same straight on Street R888's in 3rd gear. When we both entered that straight in the same gear the cars pulled equal. It was the first time I had ever been on COTA and was learning the track.

Mark sells Belangers so why would he not say that?

I have a bunch of seat time at the track in both brands on the same Gen IV (my old ACR) and I chose ARH's for my gen V based on what I learned performance wise on my Gen IV. Take that for what you want but I am probably one of only a handful of people that has actually tracked the same car with multiple header brands on their car.

I don't sell headers, so I don't need to market one brand or the other. The performance gains are NEGLIGABLE when comparing one brand to another, both perform almost identical. ARH's make a little more torque down low, and the Try Y designs (M&M and Belangers) make an extra 5 up top, based on my own personal dyno's on my old ACR on the same dyno using the same correction factors.


Along the lines of the Belanger vs. ARH header debate, the one thing I've found interesting of late is how well Belanger header cars seem to be running on the street during spirited driving events. The 5-into-1 design of the ARH headers seems to put down better dyno numbers (at least marginally), but the cars with the tri-y Belangers seem to do quite well where it matters. Mark Jorgensen has alluded to this in the past, and it always made me wonder if there was something to the tri-y + pickle design... it just seems to work.

[FLATOUT]

Is there much benefit to ceramic coating the AR Headers to lower under hood temps , and lower intake temps ?

It wouldn't lower intake temps, if you want to lower intake temps you need to run the new product about to be released by Doug Shelby or do something like what Jack B did.

If you're concerned about overall under hood temps then sure just coat them if you are having a problem. I don't know of anyone that is running ARH headers that has had or is having a problem with under hood temps.

[J TNT]

Thanks for the unbiased, straight up info !

I wouldn't lower intake temps, if you want to lower intake temps you need to run the new product about to be released by Doug Shelby or do something like what Jack B did.

If you're concerned about overall under hood temps then sure just coat them if you are having a problem. I don't know of anyone that is running ARH headers that has had or is having a problem with under hood temps.

[FLATOUT]

BTW this entire thread was started by an owner who was inquiring about American Racing Headers not Belangers.

[FLATOUT]

Thanks for the unbiased, straight up info !

No problem they are all great options I have no idea why people always feel the need to act like one brand of header is far superior to the others on the market. Honestly if you want a Try Y, why would you not buy M&M's? More affordable, coated, big primaries, only thing missing is the velocity spike in the collector. (The highest dynoing NA Bolton Gen IV or V in Houston runs M&M's and a 3 1/2 M&M catback).

Literally all three options for these cars are great. The each have small differences, including price, install, and material they are made from, all perform extremely close, so just buy what you like.

[ViperGeorge]

No problem they are all great options I have no idea why people always feel the need to act like one brand of header is far superior to the others on the market. Honestly if you want a Try Y, why would you not buy M&M's? More affordable, coated, big primaries, only thing missing is the velocity spike in the collector. (The highest dynoing NA Bolton Gen IV or V in Houston runs M&M's and a 3 1/2 M&M catback).

Literally all three options for these cars are great. The each have small differences, including price, install, and material they are made from, all perform extremely close, so just buy what you like.

Hmmm, not sure of what you refer. I think most posts are focused on giving the OP feedback on the ARH headers and other options. I personally have never run the Bellangers although I will put them on my Gen 5. The problems I had with the ARH headers on my Gen 4 were fixed by either resealing the connection between the two pieces (honestly a pain in the butt) or by installing the Mopar PCM and eliminating the downstream O2s. The Mopar controller is not a solution though for some folks depending on their state's inspection. With my Gen 5 I will install the Arrow PCM and again eliminate the downstream O2s for safety.

I think you are correct though that there is no material performance difference between the various systems.

[FLATOUT]

If you read his original post he wasn't asking about other options he had questions specifically about ARH's.




Hmmm, not sure of what you refer. I think most posts are focused on giving the OP feedback on the ARH headers and other options. I personally have never run the Bellangers although I will put them on my Gen 5. The problems I had with the ARH headers on my Gen 4 were fixed by either resealing the connection between the two pieces (honestly a pain in the butt) or by installing the Mopar PCM and eliminating the downstream O2s. The Mopar controller is not a solution though for some folks depending on their state's inspection. With my Gen 5 I will install the Arrow PCM and again eliminate the downstream O2s for safety.

I think you are correct though that there is no material performance difference between the various systems.

[Reaper]

Water is a by product of combustion and it will be in the exhaust system. Ever notice why exhaust systems rust from the inside out? Its not so much how often you drive your car or if you drive in the rain. A stainless system will simply last longer. If you're worried about discoloration or added under hood heat, get them ceramic coated. Now you have the best of both. Also from what Ive seen, the AR headers seem to be cheaper too. You wouldnt notice the power differences between the 2 on a 600+ HP car. So for me personally, Id much rather go AR and get stainless and save some $ too.

[1.8t]

I went AR for the 5-1 merge.

[ViperGeorge]

If you read his original post he wasn't asking about other options he had questions specifically about ARH's.

Ok, I don't want to argue the point. I for one posted my experience with the ARH headers (admittedly on my Gen 4) but based on that experience I will use a different solution on my Gen 5. I would have thought that the OP would like to know other options but maybe he/she doesn't Threads not too big so they can read what they think is relevant.

[Steve M]

Water is a by product of combustion and it will be in the exhaust system. Ever notice why exhaust systems rust from the inside out? Its not so much how often you drive your car or if you drive in the rain. A stainless system will simply last longer. If you're worried about discoloration or added under hood heat, get them ceramic coated. Now you have the best of both. Also from what Ive seen, the AR headers seem to be cheaper too. You wouldnt notice the power differences between the 2 on a 600+ HP car. So for me personally, Id much rather go AR and get stainless and save some $ too.

Still not important for headers IMO...the exhaust temps will be high enough that any water present will quickly be boiled off.

[Jack B]

The Balengers must be substantially lighter. It might be a moot point since both will outlast the car, but, when you mandrel bend SS, you are going to create stress risers (possible failure point) at the acute bends, whereas, the more ductile aluminized product should be close to stress free. It is also possible the SS product is stress relived after being formed.


Still not important for headers IMO...the exhaust temps will be high enough that any water present will quickly be boiled off.

[FLATOUT]

Still not important for headers IMO...the exhaust temps will be high enough that any water present will quickly be boiled off.

My last set of mild steel headers did have dried rust on the insides of the tips from the combustion process, but as Jack just mentioned it's a moot point none of these brands are going to fail anytime soon.

[Steve M]

My last set of mild steel headers did have dried rust on the insides of the tips from the combustion process, but as Jack just mentioned it's a moot point none of these brands are going to fail anytime soon.

Interesting...I'll keep that in mind.

[Rapidrezults]

Not sure if I am reading this right but it seems as if the Belangers:

a) run cooler (up to 200f?)
b) are possibly lighter
c) perform about the same as the AR's
d) possibly look better after use?

I was dead set on ARH, now I'm really confused.

[Simms]

I went ARH but coated them.
9270

[Junkie]

I love mine. Car makes right at 600/565 with ARH headers/exhaust, pulley, filter and tune. Sounds WAY better vs stock and runs great! Very happy with them.

[Jack B]

I believe the Belangers come with a ceramic coat.



I love mine. Car makes right at 600/565 with ARH headers/exhaust, pulley, filter and tune. Sounds WAY better vs stock and runs great! Very happy with them.

[dcvickers]

No problem they are all great options I have no idea why people always feel the need to act like one brand of header is far superior to the others on the market. Honestly if you want a Try Y, why would you not buy M&M's? More affordable, coated, big primaries, only thing missing is the velocity spike in the collector. (The highest dynoing NA Bolton Gen IV or V in Houston runs M&M's and a 3 1/2 M&M catback).

Literally all three options for these cars are great. The each have small differences, including price, install, and material they are made from, all perform extremely close, so just buy what you like.

Does M&M produce headers for the gen V? They aren't currently listed on their website.

[FLATOUT]

Does M&M produce headers for the gen V? They aren't currently listed on their website.

Yes they can make you set. Mitch is fantastic to work with.

[Camfab]

Lots of good points, ask yourself one simple question............ how many OEM's use ceramic coated mild steel in their exhaust systems? How about a ceramic coated mild steel cat.........:rolleyes:
Not going to happen. Plenty of reasons not to make them out of stainless. 1/4 the material cost, easier on tooling, easier to weld......... One a separate note, there are many grades of stainless and 304 should be the lowest grade you should consider.

[dcvickers]

Yes they can make you set. Mitch is fantastic to work with.

According to Mitch they don't make any for the gen V right now as they don't have a gen V to work with.

[JonB ~ PartsRack]

One other point:

The musicality / tone / note of the headers. Metallurgy matters again. I spoke to a man who has a PHD in music, and a specialty in Pipe Organ Performance! He plays and repairs and tunes church and cathedral pipe organs. We had a long chat about V10 drone, resonance, and exhaust pipe tone. He is not a car-guy, but does appreciate them.

If you want deep, rich, 60s-70s muscle-car tones, created when fuel explodes into the 10-cylinder "PIPE ORGAN" of a header, it is mild steel that gets my personal nod. Stainless vibrates at a higher frequency/pitch/tone/note. You can test this yourself at any muffler shop:

Hold or hang 2 equal-length sections of mild steel vs stainless, of same diameter. Hang them with tape like a wind-chime. Tap with a hammer handle. Listen. Which is music to your ears? Your opinion may vary. There is no right or wrong answer. But the muscle-cars-of-old did NOT have stainless.

[JonB ~ PartsRack]

........ How about a ceramic coated mild steel cat.........Not going to happen.....

You should never coat or wrap a catalytic converter! Why? Its literally a furnace, burning off impurities within a targeted temperature range. Coating a cat contains and traps more heat INSIDE, and cooks the precious and semi-precious metals and substrate beyond their design and target. It shortens their life, and voids their warrantee....

[FLATOUT]

This is funny Jon. Did you know I was a pro classical musician and studio artist in my former life?

To this day my favorite sounding Viper exhausts that I have actually had on my Gen III, IV, and V Vipers.

1. ARH Gen V with ARH 3 inch mufflered catback
2. M&M Gen IV with M&M 3 1/2 inch mufflered catback
3. ARH Gen V with stock 2 1/2 inch catback
4. M&M Gen III with 3 inch Corsa catback
5. ARH Gen V with 3 inch TrackBack Catback

All of these systems are without cats.


One other point:

The musicality / tone / note of the headers. Metallurgy matters again. I spoke to a man who has a PHD in music, and a specialty in Pipe Organ Performance! He plays and repairs and tunes church and cathedral pipe organs. We had a long chat about V10 drone, resonance, and exhaust pipe tone. He is not a car-guy, but does appreciate them.

If you want deep, rich, 60s-70s muscle-car tones, created when fuel explodes into the 10-cylinder "PIPE ORGAN" of a header, it is mild steel that gets my personal nod. Stainless vibrates at a higher frequency/pitch/tone/note. You can test this yourself at any muffler shop:

Hold or hang 2 equal-length sections of mild steel vs stainless, of same diameter. Hang them with tape like a wind-chime. Tap with a hammer handle. Listen. Which is music to your ears? Your opinion may vary. There is no right or wrong answer. But the muscle-cars-of-old did NOT have stainless.

[FLATOUT]

According to Mitch they don't make any for the gen V right now as they don't have a gen V to work with.

Interesting, they are the same header and turnouts, the only thing that has changed is the tip from the Gen IV. I know because I test fit a set of ARH's I had sitting around from my ACR onto my TA before I sold them.

[ViperDog]

This is funny Jon. Did you know I was a pro classical musician and studio artist in my former life?

To this day my favorite sounding Viper exhausts that I have actually had on my Gen III, IV, and V Vipers.

1. ARH Gen V with ARH 3 inch mufflered catback
2. M&M Gen IV with M&M 3 1/2 inch mufflered catback
3. ARH Gen V with stock 2 1/2 inch catback
4. M&M Gen III with 3 inch Corsa catback
5. ARH Gen V with 3 inch TrackBack Catback

All of these systems are without cats.

Flatout, could you rate/differentiate the sound of each? (volume/tone)

[FLATOUT]

Flatout, could you rate/differentiate the sound of each? (volume/tone)

Sure:

1. ARH Gen V with ARH 3 inch mufflered catback (Deep, slightly louder than stock at idle, and best one suited for all driving environments, i.e. track day, backroads, long cruise, date night.)
2. M&M Gen IV with M&M 3 1/2 inch mufflered catback (Deep, louder than stock, great sounding setup, perfect aggressive setup, no drone makes great hp but losses a little torque)
3. ARH Gen V with stock 2 1/2 inch catback (Brighter sounding, loud cold start, screams wide open, and louder than the first two, great setup but you sacrifice a little hp with the 2 1/2 catback)
4. M&M Gen III with 3 inch Corsa catback (This system is the brightest and RIPS, very aggressive, but very loud, great HP and Torque)
5. ARH Gen V with 3 inch TrackBack Catback (Should be used for the track only, big drone, incredibly loud cold start, you will get a headache, but it has it's place, great weight reduction mod as well)

[Reaper]

How many of you guys are running different mufflers or cat backs? Can you run the AR headers w cats and it bolt up to stock catback or does that have to be changed too? Ive seen a couple great vids of some of you guys cars but it doesnt say if or what catback you're using. Im leaning to using stock catback but could be swayed to AR mufflers too.

[Voice of Reason]

How many of you guys are running different mufflers or cat backs? Can you run the AR headers w cats and it bolt up to stock catback or does that have to be changed too? Ive seen a couple great vids of some of you guys cars but it doesnt say if or what catback you're using. Im leaning to using stock catback but could be swayed to AR mufflers too.

You just asked about Option 3 right above your post. Yes it's possible, I'm getting it done next week.

[FLATOUT]

How many of you guys are running different mufflers or cat backs? Can you run the AR headers w cats and it bolt up to stock catback or does that have to be changed too? Ive seen a couple great vids of some of you guys cars but it doesnt say if or what catback you're using. Im leaning to using stock catback but could be swayed to AR mufflers too.

Yes you can run it with your stock catback, I did for awhile. They will just size the outlet of the turnout to mate up with your 2 1/2 factory catback. Sound is great its actually louder than if you run their 3 inch catback with the headers.

I like the sound with their catback better than I do with the factory catback and you pick up a few HP switching to the full 3 inch setup with their big 3 inch tips.

[ViperDog]

Thanks, Flatout. It's interesting; the ARH 3 in is a little quieter than the factory 2.5 in. A larger muffler would allow more flow without getting louder but I don't know if that's the case here. Perhaps the muffler packing?

[FLATOUT]

Thanks, Flatout. It's interesting; the ARH 3 in is a little quieter than the factory 2.5 in. A larger muffler would allow more flow without getting louder but I don't know if that's the case here. Perhaps the muffler packing?

I imagine so, it's a straight through design so I would think the baffling or packing would have something do with it. It's definitely the most livable day to day.

[JonB ~ PartsRack]

This is funny Jon. Did you know I was a pro classical musician and studio artist in my former life?

Aye, Aye, I did know, and the Studio you performed with too! [ I have a file on you like NCIS. ]

[FLATOUT]

aye, aye, i did know, and the studio you performed with too! [ i have a file on you like ncis. ]

lol :)

[SammutRacing]

Agreed, maybe if we're talking a truck that's going to do 300K miles. I've had stainless and alum on all my different cars thru the years, if anything the stainless looks a little worse for wear, but I've never had them be disappointing in perf or looks with tens of thousands of miles, from vipers to mustangs to bimmers. I have had s coating fail years ago, which turned me off of coatings, but that I assume was just a bad coater issue. But, either way, we have great options.

***I think the big question is if we're seeing CELs with ARH, I hadn't heard that before & am surprised if that's the case**.



Glad I found this thread I've been having this debate for weeks with friends now since the spring is approaching and I want to do a full catted exhaust on my TA, I get different answers from everyone on the ARH.. but everyone says the same about the Belanger system.. no CEL.

... I’ll start by saying this, I like the way ARH sound better than the belangers headers, it’s a street car for me so sound is what I’m focused on ( I do like belangers as well and it looks like this is what I’ll end up getting)

Seems that ARH has really narrowed their market by not engineering there catted system to not throw a CEL on a stock PCM. For me here is the major issue..
I live in a state (NY) like many other states where to pass inspection/registration you can’t have a CEL and you need to be able to plug in and show all systems ready. If you have a recurring CEL you won’t pass and will not be able to inspect or register your car making it pointless.. since I don’t have anyone around me that has done the HP tune on a viper I plan on doing the Arrow PCM (will not pass NYSI) but you can easily remove it, put the stock one in and with the belanger system you will show all systems ready and pass.. with ARH it seems you won’t…

So the question is if the ARH catted does throw a CEL, is it a once and a while CEL where you can just clear it with a tool? or is it a recurring every 10-20 miles after you clear it CEL? If it comes on once every thousand miles or so the car will be able to go through the drive cycles it needs without a problem and get the system ready to pass.. but if it’s the type of CEL that comes on very quickly after clearing NO GOOD. Car won’t pass. Headers aren’t something you can swap out like a PCM or the side mufflers in an hour or so, from what I was told it can be a 8-10 hr job.. im hoping for some good feedback as im ready pull the trigger but really don’t want a hassle.

It just doesn’t make sense to me that with such a limited market with gen 5 vipers idk what do they make 1000 a year? (not like vetts that have annual production #s of 20k +) that ARH would limit their system to people in states that you don’t need to plug in.. again, I don’t care about a light on my dash and I know a tune will fix that, its not being able to inspect or register that concerns me..

[FLATOUT]

I have seen both brands throw cells, and both work exactly as advertised. I personally have no idea if the ARH's throw a cel with cats or not as I have always run them catless with either HPTuners or a Mopar ECU.

[mjorgensen]

We had done 37 sets of Belangers on Gen5 cars before the Arrow PCM was released and only had 1 instance of a CEL after the owner was on a long low rpm trip in cool weather. After some spirited driving to clear the CEL he has never had it return. Belanger spent the time on placement and on the California spec cats to make sure his headers would be trouble free and for the most part this is a fact.

[FLATOUT]

We had done 37 sets of Belangers on Gen5 cars before the Arrow PCM was released and only had 1 instance of a CEL after the owner was on a long low rpm trip in cool weather. After some spirited driving to clear the CEL he has never had it return. Belanger spent the time on placement and on the California spec cats to make sure his headers would be trouble free and for the most part this is a fact.

For the most part it is a fact, but I have also seen a set or two of Belangers throw a code with a stock ECU. That is also a fact, not saying it's the norm by any means.

[Stealth]

I am not sure any Headers will pass California smog, even with stock cats and no CEL.

[SammutRacing]

i have american racing headers on mine with high flow cats (everything ceramic coated) and a tune and i'm just at 600 to the tire on 91.

KB, what do you do for inspection/registration in CA? I think its the same as NY as far as passing?


For the most part it is a fact, but I have also seen a set or two of Belangers throw a code with a stock ECU. That is also a fact, not saying it's the norm by any means.

throwing a code here and there is fine and IMO to be expected when ever tuning a car from factory spec.. but again once and awhile no biggie, get the scanner tool from the trunk and clear it in 20 seconds. . my worry is with the ARH catted the type of CEL ill get wont go away and wont let the system get ready.. I don't think im willing to take that risk..
I wonder if the 02 spacers I see out here would help? seemed to do the trick for gen 3 cars.. my buddy has no cats with the cat sims/spacer and passes no problem.. gen 4 cars not so easy to manipulate.. no clue about gen 5..

you guys down south are lucky.. NY sucks and there really is no way around it. I really want the ARH but it just seems like with not enough information out there its not for me.. shame because if I feel this way that means many others do as well and its causing them to loose market share and sales for gen5 cars.. unless more info becomes available in the near future I guess its belanger catted to corsa for me..