Gen5 Heads and cam package release info

[mjorgensen]

The specifications and pricing for the Arrow Racing H/C package have been released.

Camshaft specification:
• Fixed billet camshaft core – 5160 heat treated
• Arrow Custom Grind
• Intake lobe is 234 duration and 0.617” valve lift
• Exhaust Lobe is 242 duration and 0.617” valve lift
• 115 LSA with a +1 degree advance
• Production 5 tooth timing wheel in Gen V position timed in lock pin position


Spring:
• Stock spring will not permit over 0.600” lift so we went to our race proven dual spring that is micro polished
• Permits 0.700” lift
• Higher load to control the spring up to 8400 rpm – required as we are running tight Piston to Valve clearance
• Requires custom spring seat, seal, and retainer

Cylinder Head:
• Increased Intake valve size from 2.080” to 2.125”
• Increased throat size and port volume (297cc / 105cc) on both the intake and the exhaust to take advantage of the increased lift and duration
• Increased flow of about 20 cfm at 0.617” lift.
• New Steel valve with back cut for improved air flow\


Lifters:
• Low travel hydraulic elite link bar lifter (0.050” total travel vs. 0.120” total travel from production)
• Required for Piston to Valve clearance control
• Fits in production machined cylinder block

Pushrods:
• One piece chrome molly thick with tapered ends to fit the current gasket and clear the cylinder head
• Stiffness required for valvetrain control (Piston to Valve)

Thrust Plate:
• Double disc ground CNC machined out of a billet of aluminum bronze plate • Oil slots machined to oil the chain and the sprocket interface
• Proven over the last 5 years in all of our racing applications

Oiling modifications:
• Custom billet plug inserted where the Oil Control Valve was to control the oil to the Front Camshaft journal and the trust plate

Calibration:
• All of the same features OF the Track Pak #1 off-road controller
• Elimination of the VVT system – Software is all developed for Lock – Pin position.
• EXTREMELY CRITICAL TO DO THE LEARN FUNCTION FOR EACH APPLICATION! (tooth error is critical as the window has no room for accommodating edge stack up error).
• DO NOT FLASH ON ANOTHER CAR AND THINK THAT THIS IS GOING TO WORK!!!! MUST BE ON THE CAR WITH THE ENGINE!!!!!!


Performance on the Engine Dynamometer:
• Flywheel horsepower 738 BHP @ 6200 RPM
• Flywheel Torque of 689 Lb-Ft @ 5100 RPM


Parts package $10,991.03 without exhaust if you have your own or you can add a full ARH exhaust for $3000 additional.

Heads and cam cores need to be returned to Arrow Racing to avoid core charges, they must be packaged and shipped without damage to avoid the core charge.

Installed pricing at one of the 3 dealers may vary slightly, but all parts pricing will be the same.

[FLATOUT]

Great info, 11K uninstalled, am I reading that right?

[ACRucrazy]

Can't wait to see some reviews

[mjorgensen]

Great info, 11K uninstalled, am I reading that right?

Yes, it is not stated there, but your core parts also need to be returned to avoid core charges.

[mjorgensen]

Can't wait to see some reviews

Parts availability will be in approximately 8 weeks, we have the first install scheduled on a new TA 2.0 so hopefully we have results soon after they hit the street.

[Voice of Reason]

Are those dyno ratings with or without the ARH exhaust? If without the exhaust then I'm assuming we can add about 30 hp.

[mjorgensen]

Are those dyno ratings with or without the ARH exhaust? If without the exhaust then I'm assuming we can add 30 hp

All numbers were with the ARH system installed.

[ViperSmith]

You, Tomball, and Romoco?

[ViperTony]

Nice. That package is fairly priced and great for a DIY'r like myself. Great info. Will you be able to provide a list of "incidentals" that are needed to install this package such head gaskets, timing cover gasket, head bolts, fluids, etc?

[ACRucrazy]

What's the core charge on the entire package?

[mjorgensen]

You, Tomball, and Romoco?

Yes Roanoak

- - - Updated - - -


Nice. That package is fairly priced and great for a DIY'r like myself. Great info. Will you be able to provide a list of "incidentals" that are needed to install this package such head gaskets, timing cover gasket, head bolts, fluids, etc?

Package should come with everything needed but the fluids.

[KB Viper]

that cam should offer a nice choppy idle, i'm so in on this. whats the install cost? assuming all parts are there and the install is scheduled far enough in advance whats the turn around time?

[mjorgensen]

What's the core charge on the entire package?

Core charge is $2000 if you keep your parts.

[Simms]

Thanks for the info. What's an approximate install cost or total time in labor?

[1.8t]

Calibration:
• EXTREMELY CRITICAL TO DO THE LEARN FUNCTION FOR EACH APPLICATION! (tooth error is critical as the window has no room for accommodating edge stack up error).
• DO NOT FLASH ON ANOTHER CAR AND THINK THAT THIS IS GOING TO WORK!!!! MUST BE ON THE CAR WITH THE ENGINE!!!!!!



Can you go into more detail on this? When we send the Arrow ECU back for reprogramming, does the car then need to go to a dealer to have this learn function done? If we are doing the install ourselves, I guess the car would need to be flat bedded to the dealer? Or can you drive the car there under its own power? Or is it possible for you to do the relearn on your own?

[mblgjr]

That last 40hp is hard to get...

Glad this is available; can't wait to hear it.

[mjorgensen]

Thanks for the info. What's an approximate install cost or total time in labor?

Labor is estimated at 24 hours total with exhaust.

[mjorgensen]

Can you go into more detail on this? When we send the Arrow ECU back for reprogramming, does the car then need to go to a dealer to have this learn function done? If we are doing the install ourselves, I guess the car would need to be flat bedded to the dealer? Or can you drive the car there under its own power? Or is it possible for you to do the relearn on your own?

Since the cam is different and the tolerances can vary in a 7 degree window of operation yes it will need to go to the dealer to be learned so all the parts that have tolerances that "stack up" can be learned for your car. this is why you cannot flash a PCM to one car and use it on another.

The car will start though and allow you to get on a trailer. If you live very close to a dealer you may be able to slowly drive there.

[v10enomous]

Labor is estimated at 24 hours total with exhaust.

So between $16,400 and $17,000 + tax with the exhaust ? This is all a prereq for the FI 900 system ?

[ViperDog]

Looks like a great head/cam kit. How's the throttle response and how much hp/torque drop at the lower rpms? These factors usually take a hit with bigger heads/cam.

[Murpowa]

Great info Mark.

Don't know how I feel about $350/hp for Heads/cam package...

[V10powerr]

Viper tax - I feel the same way U do

[ViperTony]

Great info Mark.

Don't know how I feel about $350/hp for Heads/cam package...

How did you come up with $350/hp? $10,991.03 + $3,000 (ARH Headers) = $13,991.03. Divide that by the amount of BHP gained (640 to 733) or 93 and I get $150.44/HP gained.

[Voice of Reason]

How did you come up with $350/hp? $10,991.03 + $3,000 (ARH Headers) = $13,991.03. Divide that by the amount of BHP gained (640 to 733) or 93 and I get $150.44/HP gained.

The tune and headers alone are getting you to 590 rwhp or 694 bhp. So the cam package gets you an additional 44 bhp (738 - 694) for a price of $249.80/hp. And that's if your tune and headers is on the low end. If you're PDV and getting 607 rwhp with tune and headers this cam package $/hp is much worse. This also assumes you install it all yourself, something most won't do. Figure in labor and again $/hp is quite high.

[Gonabite]

How did you come up with $350/hp? $10,991.03 + $3,000 (ARH Headers) = $13,991.03. Divide that by the amount of BHP gained (640 to 733) or 93 and I get $150.44/HP gained.

But wait if you call now you get a 98 HP increase for an incredibly low price of $142.77 per HP. Operators are standing by.

Sorry couldn't resist looks as if final numbers came in a touch better too 738. Either way its not horrible. These vendors aren't selling thousands of packages let alone probably not even hundreds to get their R&D money back let alone make a profit like they do with a Corvette.

And no matter what vendor anyone decides to go with for a H/C package its going to cost you around the same price. There is no way around it. These are and always have been more expensive to modify than any other massed produced car.

I also don't feel that all these dyno numbers floating around are doing anyone any justice. The only readings anyone should be taken seriously are before and after dyno pulls on the same dyno. Showing the actually increase of power. That is comparing apples to apples. Sure we all want to see a high number..... but what we are really looking for is how much power did we gain from the mods we just paid for.

[mjorgensen]

So between $16,400 and $17,000 + tax with the exhaust ? This is all a prereq for the FI 900 system ?

Not a prereq, the details for the S/C system are going to stay un spoken at this time because it is frankly to far out to start the conversation. The packages are compatible, but there will be other details that are not being shared until it is closer to being released.

[mjorgensen]

Looks like a great head/cam kit. How's the throttle response and how much hp/torque drop at the lower rpms? These factors usually take a hit with bigger heads/cam.

No losses the cam was chosen and profiled to give the best all around performance not a drag race only persona. Throttle response is said to be incredible.

[mjorgensen]

Great info Mark.

Don't know how I feel about $350/hp for Heads/cam package...


Viper tax - I feel the same way U do

It is a lot of money no doubt, but as it has been said it is only a Viper tax because it cost so much for so few, we are lucky in some ways that we don't own Corvettes and not in others.

The other side is that this is a fully engineered and tested package just like if the SRT team were to have done it on their own, there are no tuner shops out there with that kind of resources and equipment to test it as well as Arrow did, that has to be worth something when modifying a $100k car in my mind anyway.

[Junkie]

So a realistic gain for my car (already making 600whp with exhaust/filter/UD pulley/tune) would be roughly 30whp?

[ViperTony]

The tune and headers alone are getting you to 590 rwhp or 694 bhp. So the cam package gets you an additional 44 bhp (738 - 694) for a price of $249.80/hp. And that's if your tune and headers is on the low end. If you're PDV and getting 607 rwhp with tune and headers this cam package $/hp is much worse. This also assumes you install it all yourself, something most won't do. Figure in labor and again $/hp is quite high.

I'm specifically talking about the heads/cam package Mark posted up. With labor assuming 24 hrs @ $125/hr it's $182/hp. So my original question remains how did Murpowa get $350/hp with said package Mark posted?

[ViperSmith]

Assuming say $7,000 for the Supercharger and all and all this isn't bad at all.

Unsure what people expected price wise but $11k ain't all that crazy - ESP for such a small market and ESP coming from Arrow, which is close to factory you can get.

[FastMatt]

So a realistic gain for my car (already making 600whp with exhaust/filter/UD pulley/tune) would be roughly 30whp?

I find it hard to see that a cam of that size and ported heads with bigger valves would ONLY add 30 WHP to your set up, but only time will tell.

[Murpowa]

I'm specifically talking about the heads/cam package Mark posted up. With labor assuming 24 hrs @ $125/hr it's $182/hp. So my original question remains how did Murpowa get $350/hp with said package Mark posted?
The majority of folks may already have exhaust modifications so they are simply benefiting from the gains of the H/C package (roughly 30 to 40 hp). With a package price of 11k plus labor between 2000-2,500 not including any other misc expenses, you are looking at $350/hp


It is a lot of money no doubt, but as it has been said it is only a Viper tax because it cost so much for so few, we are lucky in some ways that we don't own Corvettes and not in others.

The other side is that this is a fully engineered and tested package just like if the SRT team were to have done it on their own, there are no tuner shops out there with that kind of resources and equipment to test it as well as Arrow did, that has to be worth something when modifying a $100k car in my mind anyway.
Absolutely agree - no argument there. I think the price is fair...it's a labor intensive job all around. I would have expected a bigger return on power. Maybe future custom tunes will prove that.

[Gonabite]

So a realistic gain for my car (already making 600whp with exhaust/filter/UD pulley/tune) would be roughly 30whp?

Not exactly. Depends on the dyno. Dynos are just tools. Not Judge, jury and executioner.

The mph in the 1320 would give you a more accurate figure of the power your making.

Your better off concerning your self with the power you actually gained before and after your mods and only on the SAME DYNO. And even then other variables come into play.

About the only thing this package guarentees is a 98 HP and 89 TQ. Those are true facts. not possibly skewed chassis dyno numbers.

[Junkie]

Dyno is just a ballpark estimate. Lets say my car traps 135mph, with this combo would it add 3mph? 5mph? I would hope it would go 140-ish on motor.

[Gonabite]

Dyno is just a ballpark estimate. Lets say my car traps 135mph, with this combo would it add 3mph? 5mph? I would hope it would go 140-ish on motor.

Only time will tell. I would like to think you will see close to 140. But man it takes alot to get there soooo i dont know. My last car a ZR1 was trapping 143 and it was making well over 738 BHP.

[ViperTony]

The majority of folks may already have exhaust modifications so they are simply benefiting from the gains of the H/C package (roughly 30 to 40 hp). With a package price of 11k plus labor between 2000-2,500 not including any other misc expenses, you are looking at $350/hp

Never mind. I get it now.

[TooBlue]

Since it's done at the dealer, is there any type of factory warranty remaining after this upgrade?

If not, is there any type of warranty with this package?

What is the RPM redline?

[Murpowa]

That makes no sense. I calculated the actual package cost for you above. Did you not read it? I broke out the package, headers and labor. It's nowhere near $350hp, lol. In order to reach $350/hp the package would have to cost $32,550.00 The package is for a stock GenV viper. Please break down and quantify how you reached $350/hp because it's not making any sense.

Ok, again, stating most may already have exhaust work done:

Head and cam package only (read: no exhaust) - $11,000
16 to 20 of labor @ $125/hr per your post above - $2k to 2.5k
Total - 13,000 on the low end, maybe up to $13,500

Gains from head and cam package ONLY (read: exhaust previously installed, tuned and happily running) - 30 to 40 hp

Return = $13,000/40hp equals $325/hp OR $13,500/30hp equals $450/hp.

I chose to state somewhere in between

[ViperTony]

Ok

Head and cam package only (read: no exhaust) - $11,000
16 to 20 of labor @ $125/hr per your post above - $2k to 2.5k
Total - 13,000 on the low end, maybe up to $13,500

Gains from head and cam package ONLY (read: exhaust previously installed, tuned and happily running) - 30 to 40 hp

Return = $13,000/40 equals $325 per hp OR $13,500/30 equals $450 per hp.

I chose to state somewhere in the middle

I get it now. Makes sense. It would be great if someone was able to overlay a dyno sheet from a exhaust/tune GenV on to the Arrow Heads/Cam package dyno to see where the differences are under the curve.

[Gonabite]

I get it now. Makes sense. It would be great if someone was able to overlay a dyno sheet from a exhaust/tune GenV on to the Arrow Heads/Cam package dyno to see where the differences are under the curve.

What we need is a engine dyno graph from Arrow showing just a header install to get accurate info. Im sure they have this. Maybe Mark can get that from them.

[ViperTony]

What we need is a engine dyno graph from Arrow showing just a header install to get accurate info. Im sure they have this. Maybe Mark can get that from them.

Sure but I'm talking dyno pulls from the guys that already have headers and HP Tuners tune on their GenV. I want to see what that looks like compared to an Arrow heads/cam package. Not for peak numbers but what's going on under the curve.

[Voice of Reason]

I get it now. Makes sense. It would be great if someone was able to overlay a dyno sheet from a exhaust/tune GenV on to the Arrow Heads/Cam package dyno to see where the differences are under the curve.

The best people to do this are Arrow themselves. They could provide a stock dyno, PCM only dyno, PCM + headers dyno, PCM + headers + cam dyno, and finally a blower dyno. They've already done their extensive testing on these packages so they should already have the dyno files handy. But I understand why they won't, because it's going to show the $/hp gains of the cam package are worse than the other options.

I personally expected to see a $10k number for the package, but I expected headers to be included in that price. If I can get approximately 55 bhp for $4k I don't see myself paying another 10k for the next 43 bhp but to each their own. I'll do the PCM and headers and wait to see what shakes out with the blower.

[Gonabite]

Sure but I'm talking dyno pulls from the guys that already have headers and HP Tuners tune on their GenV. I want to see what that looks like compared to an Arrow heads/cam package. Not for peak numbers but what's going on under the curve.

That wont be accurate info unfortunately unless your using the same dyno. The most accurate is Arrows engine dyno with headers alone, which most that have mods have now. Then we can all make an educated decision and see what the true gains are between just a header car and H/C with headers and tune.

[ViperTony]

That wont be accurate info unfortunately unless your using the same dyno. The most accurate is Arrows engine dyno with headers alone, which most that have mods have now. Then we can all make an educated decision and see what the true gains are between just a header car and H/C with headers and tune.

What you're looking for and what I'm looking for are two different things. I don't want what you're looking for. I'm looking for a GenV Headers/HPT Tune vs. a GenV Arrow Heads/Cam/Headers Arrow PCM. They're different solutions. Same dyno would be ideal. I'm not looking for what a header car without an HPT Tune can do on Arrow's dyno. I want to see what the differences are between the two different options. As I'm sure existing headers/HPT tuned GenV guys want to see this as well. It's pretty simple.

[Gonabite]

What you're looking for and what I'm looking for are two different things. I don't want what you're looking for. I'm looking for a GenV Headers/HPT Tune vs. a GenV Arrow Heads/Cam/Headers Arrow PCM. They're different solutions. Same dyno would be ideal. I'm not looking for what a header car without an HPT Tune can do on Arrow's dyno. I want to see what the differences are between the two different options. As I'm sure existing headers/HPT tuned GenV guys want to see this as well. It's pretty simple.

Well chances are you wont get what your looking for. Its that simple.

You cant take two different cars that were dynoed on different dynos that Im sure did not have the same power to begin with and think you will have accurate numbers to compare.

The closest option would be to have the same car with headers and HPT and dyno it. Then install Arrows package and dyno it on the same dyno. Not really a feasible option im sure. But that would be comparing apples to apples.

Or wait until these cars get out there on the drag strip and see what kind of mph they put down.

[ViperTony]

Well chances are you wont get what your looking for. Its that simple.

You cant take two different cars that were dynoed on different dynos that Im sure did not have the same power to begin with and think you will have accurate numbers to compare.

The closest option would be to have the same car with headers and HPT and dyno it. Then install Arrows package and dyno it on the same dyno. Not really a feasible option im sure. But that would be comparing apples to apples.

Or wait until these cars get out there on the drag strip and see what kind of mph they put down.

If I agree with you will you stop stalking me over this and move on?

[Gonabite]

If I agree with you will you stop stalking me over this and move on?

LMAO... trust me I want the information also. I just want accurate info.

[ViperTony]

LMAO... trust me I want the information also. I just want accurate info.

So the answer is "NO' then. Got it. :D

[kdaviper]

well unless HPT comes out with their own head/cam package, what other choice do you have for ~740 bhp?

[Murpowa]

well unless HPT comes out with their own head/cam package, what other choice do you have for ~740 bhp?

BBG teased us with a potential option

[ViperTony]

BBG teased us with a potential option

Yeah, way too much foreplay going on with these kits. Let's get to the main event already. :D

[Shooter]

Great info Mark.

Don't know how I feel about $350/hp for Heads/cam package...

They are working on a package right this minute that's probably closer to what your looking to spend Murpowa. In fact I think I found a pic of it on the dyno.

yep. here it is.

8986

[LS6M]

Yeah, way too much foreplay going on with these kits. Let's get to the main event already. :D

Its coming :)

[mjorgensen]

If the package is installed at one of our dealerships the engine warranty will be honored, there is not an established time/mileage on that finalized though. The rest of the cars drive train could be out though depending on what issue you might have. There are plenty of powerful cars out there now without issues though so I'm not that worried about it.

new redline is 6600


Since it's done at the dealer, is there any type of factory warranty remaining after this upgrade?

If not, is there any type of warranty with this package?

What is the RPM redline?

[KB Viper]

Labor is estimated at 24 hours total with exhaust.

so if you show up with headers already installed what will the estimated total install time be?

[Jack B]

This thread is like a tale of two worlds, up to six months ago, many on this forum were crying and complaining that we did not have a 700 hp car. Now some of the the same group is complaining that we have over 700 hp.

[mjorgensen]

You still have to take the heads off so still doing the exhaust work, you might save a couple hours at most.


so if you show up with headers already installed what will the estimated total install time be?

[ViperSmith]

If the package is installed at one of our dealerships the engine warranty will be honored, there is not an established time/mileage on that finalized though. The rest of the cars drive train could be out though depending on what issue you might have. There are plenty of powerful cars out there now without issues though so I'm not that worried about it.

new redline is 6600

Now that is quite interesting...

[Gonabite]

This thread is like a tale of two worlds, up to six months ago, many on this forum were crying and complaining that we did not have a 700 hp car. Now some of the the same group is complaining that we have over 700 hp.

This is so true Jack. Just goes to show no matter what you do, you just can't please everyone.

[v10tt]

Cylinder Head:
• Increased Intake valve size from 2.080” to 2.125”
• Increased throat size and port volume (297cc / 105cc) on both the intake and the exhaust to take advantage of the increased lift and duration
• Increased flow of about 20 cfm at 0.617” lift.
• New Steel valve with back cut for improved air flow\
.

Is that 20 cfm flow increase over stock after the bigger valves and port work? what are the stock flows vs. the modified heads flow?

[v10tt]

Any particular reason why a head and cam set up cannot make 80-100 more rwhp over the bolt ons + tune set up? or is the OEM stock head and cam that efficient?

[Murpowa]

They are working on a package right this minute that's probably closer to what your looking to spend Murpowa. In fact I think I found a pic of it on the dyno.

yep. here it is.

8986

You're*...

The personal attacks aimed at myself and others are cute. It's a shame the filthy riches you must possess over the average citizen could not provide more sufficient grammar lessons.


This thread is like a tale of two worlds, up to six months ago, many on this forum were crying and complaining that we did not have a 700 hp car. Now some of the the same group is complaining that we have over 700 hp.

Jack, please point to one post where someone is complaining that a performance package now offers over 700 hp. The general consensus seems to be that most individuals are surprised H/C on a Gen V does not offer MORE power.

[mjorgensen]

Is that 20 cfm flow increase over stock after the bigger valves and port work? what are the stock flows vs. the modified heads flow?


Any particular reason why a head and cam set up cannot make 80-100 more rwhp over the bolt ons + tune set up? or is the OEM stock head and cam that efficient?


The flows don't show large increases because there is only so much that can be done with valve size unless you totally re work the heads to accommodate it which would add a large amount of cost to the package. They are also at the limit of lift in relationship to the piston, you would have to give up size for lift and that would be going in the wrong direction power wise for this application. This is the same reason there has not been a compression increase. If you wanted to swap pistons to a valve relief design then you can obviously do more, but here again then the package is even more expensive so trade offs had to be made to make the kit marketable to the masses rather than to a smaller group altogether.

[Steve M]

Any particular reason why a head and cam set up cannot make 80-100 more rwhp over the bolt ons + tune set up? or is the OEM stock head and cam that efficient?

From what I understand, the stock heads are already pretty decent right from the factory, and the VVT cam above 4,000 RPMs is pretty decent sized as well. A strong baseline gives you less room to grow...I'm sure there are some that will try to shove the biggest donkey dick cam they can in there to get the big number on paper, but they'll ruin the driveability of the car in the process.

[Utahviper]

This is great news! A bit costly but worth it to maintain a factory warranty. I have read the whole thread but didn't see the answer to my question. My question is, will it pass an emissions test? Or Will the factory computer run the car enough to get an emissions test? This is pretty much a deal breaker for me if you can't have it pass an emissions test. The car would then be un marketable when It comes time to sell it. Unless you put it back to stock, which sounds very costly! You would have to keep everything at $2000 additional and then pay someone $2500 to put everything back.

[mblgjr]

All joking aside 740hp n/a is nice esp since it will remain fairly streetable.

[Shooter]

You're*...

The personal attacks aimed at myself and others are cute. It's a shame the filthy riches you must possess over the average citizen could not provide more sufficient grammer lessons.


Grow up. Why don't you actually step up and buy something, instead of complaining about the price of mods for a car you don't even own. You've been on this site since the start yapping off about stuff you have no intention of buying. Asking a question is one thing. Complaining about cost when you have no skin in the game is another.

[Steve M]

This is great news! A bit costly but worth it to maintain a factory warranty. I have read the whole thread but didn't see the answer to my question. My question is, will it pass an emissions test? Or Will the factory computer run the car enough to get an emissions test? This is pretty much a deal breaker for me if you can't have it pass an emissions test. The car would then be un marketable when It comes time to sell it. Unless you put it back to stock, which sounds very costly! You would have to keep everything at $2000 additional and then pay someone $2500 to put everything back.

The mod is tied directly to the Arrow PCM, which is an offroad use only controller. It would NOT pass a plug in emissions test with that PCM. You also won't be running a solid cam with the stock, factory calibrated PCM, so simply swapping PCMs wouldn't be possible either.

[FLATOUT]

Man I just can't decide which route to go until I see one of these packages hit the dyno. Really looking forward to see the gains on the Woodhouse dyno over one of their Bolton cars. They have dyno'ed a BUNCH of HP Tuners with full exhaust cars over there to compare to.

I have a feeling a stock cam with a real head port (not a CNC) by a big time porter will yield similar results to this package, and retain the stock cam and tunability of HPTuners.

Interesting times ahead.

[Murpowa]

Grow up. Why don't you actually step up and buy something, instead of complaining about the price of mods for a car you don't even own. You've been on this site since the start yapping off about stuff you have no intention of buying. Asking a question is one thing. Complaining about cost when you have no skin in the game is another.

Did I strike a nerve?

There is no need to derail this thread - just like there is no need to make the assumptions you've made. Where did I complain about cost? Did you miss the post where I said I thought the price was fair due to the labor and work involved? What if the information Mark has shared play into my personal decision-making of buying a Gen V vs. something else?

[RedTanRT/10]

Got a chance to get caught up on the news on this package, great work by Mark J, Arrow, etc. etc!!!

To all the comments regarding costs, old threads on the vca or the alley can give great insights to costs to get Gen IV's to this level.

Low hanging fruit on the G4 & G5 vipers are about $100.00 per rwhp (headers/exhaust, ecu, G4 ported intake). After than it gets real, real pricey to get any incremental lift. (I've got an extra 24 rwhp from ported heads on my G4 for about $4,000. installed). To move the needle further for me is a cam, similar to the one in this post, maybe pick up another 20 rwhp, but then I can't pass CA smog.

If you want 700-800 hp in a viper for a more reasonable cost, go find a G3 and add s/c and built the bottom end, or spend double that and get a 1000 plus with a twin turbo.

If you want a G5 at close to 750 flywheel hp, then it's gonna cost 5 figures starting from stock. (That doesn't come as a surprise to anyone who's been watching development back from the start of G4's)


Great news with all the efforts from these guys is that there is a platform to ultimately get these motors to 900 flywheel

[Steve M]

Got a chance to get caught up on the news on this package, great work by Mark J, Arrow, etc. etc!!!

To all the comments regarding costs, old threads on the vca or the alley can give great insights to costs to get Gen IV's to this level.

Low hanging fruit on the G4 & G5 vipers are about $100.00 per rwhp (headers/exhaust, ecu, G4 ported intake). After than it gets real, real pricey to get any incremental lift. (I've got an extra 24 rwhp from ported heads on my G4 for about $4,000. installed). To move the needle further for me is a cam, similar to the one in this post, maybe pick up another 20 rwhp, but then I can't pass CA smog.

If you want 700-800 hp in a viper for a more reasonable cost, go find a G3 and add s/c and built the bottom end, or spend double that and get a 1000 plus with a twin turbo.

If you want a G5 at close to 750 flywheel hp, then it's gonna cost 5 figures starting from stock. (That doesn't come as a surprise to anyone who's been watching development back from the start of G4's)


Great news with all the efforts from these guys is that there is a platform to ultimately get these motors to 900 flywheel

Well stated - getting big numbers out of an NA setup costs big money, because at some point it becomes an exercise in maximizing efficiency, which is all about chasing fine details. If you want more power out of a forced induction setup, you simply up the boost.

[FLATOUT]

Yeah I am interested in the results before I pull the trigger either way. I have the funds to do something so we'll see which route provides the best solution for how I use my Gen V.

BTW people might want to start budgeting for a clutch as the power levels increase.

[99RT10]

Man I just can't decide which route to go until I see one of these packages hit the dyno. Really looking forward to see the gains on the Woodhouse dyno over one of their Bolton cars. They have dyno'ed a BUNCH of HP Tuners with full exhaust cars over there to compare to.

I have a feeling a stock cam with a real head port (not a CNC) by a big time porter will yield similar results to this package, and retain the stock cam and tunability of HPTuners.

Interesting times ahead.

It sounds like this would be the way to go and then if a paxton system comes out, it would make a perfect bolt-on for another 200 HP. Good times ahead for the Gen 5!!!!

[Jack B]

You can use HPT on the Arrow pcm.



Man I just can't decide which route to go until I see one of these packages hit the dyno. Really looking forward to see the gains on the Woodhouse dyno over one of their Bolton cars. They have dyno'ed a BUNCH of HP Tuners with full exhaust cars over there to compare to.

I have a feeling a stock cam with a real head port (not a CNC) by a big time porter will yield similar results to this package, and retain the stock cam and tunability of HPTuners.

Interesting times ahead.

[FLATOUT]

You can use HPT on the Arrow pcm.

True but do you think they will sell you an Arrow PCM with the upgraded Heads and Cam tune in it?

[Steve M]

You can use HPT on the Arrow pcm.

From what I've read, the Arrow PCM is a little more "opened up", but what I don't understand is if those parameters that have been relaxed are hard-coded in the original PCM or not.

I'd assume HPT would operate the same way on the Arrow PCM as it would the stock one, as in it would overwrite whatever Arrow had in there, essentially starting you back at square 1 (same thing that would happen if you used HPT on a Gen 4 Mopar PCM).

[Jack B]

Just a guess, but, you would start with a new pcm read. Now you have the best base tune available, plus, you can fine tune for temps and conditions.


From what I've read, the Arrow PCM is a little more "opened up", but what I don't understand is if those parameters that have been relaxed are hard-coded in the original PCM or not.

I'd assume HPT would operate the same way on the Arrow PCM as it would the stock one, as in it would overwrite whatever Arrow had in there, essentially starting you back at square 1 (same thing that would happen if you used HPT on a Gen 4 Mopar PCM).

[Voice of Reason]

From what I've read, the Arrow PCM is a little more "opened up", but what I don't understand is if those parameters that have been relaxed are hard-coded in the original PCM or not.

I'd assume HPT would operate the same way on the Arrow PCM as it would the stock one, as in it would overwrite whatever Arrow had in there, essentially starting you back at square 1 (same thing that would happen if you used HPT on a Gen 4 Mopar PCM).

There are things that Arrow has access to that HPT does not, my thought (and maybe it's wrong) is that whatever those parameters are would not be overwritten if you load HPT on it. So someone should be able to do the full Arrow cam package and then go with HPT on top to possibly get a few more HP.

- - - Updated - - -


Just a guess, but, you would start with a new pcm read. Now you have the best base tune available, plus, you can fine tune for temps and conditions.

Remember though that it's a fake read, you're just getting a canned base tune from HPT themselves.

[FLATOUT]

There are things that Arrow has access to the HPT does not, my thought (and maybe it's wrong) is that whatever those parameters are would not be overwritten if you load HPT on it. So someone should be able to do the full Arrow can package and then go with HPT on top to possibly get a few more HP.

Or run a different cam, or different heads?

[Steve M]

Just a guess, but, you would start with a new pcm read. Now you have the best base tune available, plus, you can fine tune for temps and conditions.

If it still uses rolling encryption, then it won't be able to be read out, just like the stock G4/G5 PCMs.

[Jack B]

I do not think it matters. Currently HPT is adding and subtracting and it us not linear. In others words if you request 12.5 af, you will not get that number, it may take several attempts. Therefore, I see hpt working with the new pcm. I do have a partial confirmation



True but do you think they will sell you an Arrow PCM with the upgraded Heads and Cam tune in it?

[Jack B]

Exactly, that is why it will work




There are things that Arrow has access to that HPT does not, my thought (and maybe it's wrong) is that whatever those parameters are would not be overwritten if you load HPT on it. So someone should be able to do the full Arrow cam package and then go with HPT on top to possibly get a few more HP.

- - - Updated - - -



Remember though that it's a fake read, you're just getting a canned base tune from HPT themselves.

[FLATOUT]

Exactly, that is why it will work

I just want to have a PCM OR tuning software that will allow me my choice of non VVT cam, and my choice of heads to work. I have a feeling that HPTuners on top of the stocker will not work, but I have a feeling that HPTuners on top of the Heads and Cam Arrow tune will make this possible.

[Voice of Reason]

I just want to have a PCM OR tuning software that will allow me my choice of non VVT cam, and my choice of heads to work. I have a feeling that HPTuners on top of the stocker will not work, but I have a feeling that HPTuners on top of the Heads and Cam Arrow tune will make this possible.

Agreed.

This is jumping the gun a little but I bet the same will be true of the supercharger package. Get the package, change the pulley to up boost, put HPT on it and retune = 1000 hp. Maybe you also need more injector too but you get the idea.

[FLATOUT]

My vision of modding a 2008-2015 Viper, how ever the F*** I want is closer than ever. I really hope we are there.


Agreed.

This is jumping the gun a little but I bet the same will be true of the supercharger package. Get the package, change the pulley to up boost, put HPT on it and retune = 1000 hp. Maybe you also need more injector too but you get the idea.

[FLATOUT]

My vision of modding a 2008-2015 Viper, how ever the F*** I want is closer than ever. I really hope we are there.

I have a feeling that they will not allow us to buy the stage two ECU with heads and cam tune in it without the rest of the hardware.

[Steve M]

I just want to have a PCM OR tuning software that will allow me my choice of non VVT cam, and my choice of heads to work. I have a feeling that HPTuners on top of the stocker will not work, but I have a feeling that HPTuners on top of the Heads and Cam Arrow tune will make this possible.

What issues do we know of with a solid cam and HPT? Keith got it to work on his Gen 4, so are people having issues with the Gen 5s that no one has publicly addressed? I'm still waiting on Toddy's results, and am starting to wonder what the issue is...

[Junkie]

What issues do we know of with a solid cam and HPT? Keith got it to work on his Gen 4, so are people having issues with the Gen 5s that no one has publicly addressed? I'm still waiting on Toddy's results, and am starting to wonder what the issue is...

Link to it working and making power on a Gen4?

[FLATOUT]

Link to it working and making power on a Gen4?

Exactly, we know Toddy did it but haven't heard anything about it. He's not the type of guy that keeps things to himself. Also If Keith did it successfully that would be great and I would love for him to let us know if he made it work with his software.

[Steve M]

Link to it working and making power on a Gen4?

It's his race car ('06 with a Gen 4 motor and PCM), but this is it right here:


http://youtu.be/Zwt3_Xff9sI

I don't think it is what you were looking for as far as details, but his car was his own personal test mule for the software. The tables available in HPT were the ones he needed to make his car work with a solid cam. He hasn't (or won't) divulge power numbers though.

[FLATOUT]

As long as I know it will work than I am good to go. Thanks for providing the link!


It's his race car ('06 with a Gen 4 motor and PCM), but this is it right here:


http://youtu.be/Zwt3_Xff9sI

I don't think it is what you were looking for as far as details, but his car was his own personal test mule for the software. The tables available in HPT were the ones he needed to make his car work with a solid cam. He hasn't (or won't) divulge power numbers though.

[ACRucrazy]

My vision of modding a 2008-2015 Viper, how ever the F*** I want is closer than ever. I really hope we are there.


I have a feeling that they will not allow us to buy the stage two ECU with heads and cam tune in it without the rest of the hardware.

Quoting yourself. That's a first for me.

[Steve M]

As long as I know it will work than I am good to go. Thanks for providing the link!

Well, that's the thing...I know HE got it to work, but I've not seen any verifiable results from anyone else that's gone down this road. That's what's making me wonder if there's something going on behind the scenes...he did mention that he needed to disable a number of DTCs to keep his car from going into limp mode, but I'm not sure which ones those were.

[FLATOUT]

Quoting yourself. That's a first for me.

Because I just got off the phone with Arrow and it changed my optimism on what I had just posted.

[ACRucrazy]

Because I just got off the phone with Arrow and it changed my optimism on what I had just posted.

Damn the man!

[mjorgensen]

I just want to have a PCM OR tuning software that will allow me my choice of non VVT cam, and my choice of heads to work. I have a feeling that HPTuners on top of the stocker will not work, but I have a feeling that HPTuners on top of the Heads and Cam Arrow tune will make this possible.



HPT does not have the ability to copy the tune that is in the Arrow PCM or the H/C PCM. Their base tune is what they have and it would be flashed into whatever PCM you have negating any of the good qualities the Arrow PCM's had to begin with. I was under the same impression as you all were, but it has been confirmed it will not work that way, sorry for the confusion.

[mjorgensen]

I have a feeling that they will not allow us to buy the stage two ECU with heads and cam tune in it without the rest of the hardware.

You are correct in that assumption.

[mjorgensen]

Exactly, we know Toddy did it but haven't heard anything about it. He's not the type of guy that keeps things to himself. Also If Keith did it successfully that would be great and I would love for him to let us know if he made it work with his software.

Maybe Keith had help making the racecar work?

[Magnus]

Maybe Keith had help making the racecar work?

There's a lot of misinformation in this thread. Let me do my best to clarify.


There isn't rolling encryption on the venom pcm's. They just don't have read enabled. For the Gen4 PCM's, we added reading code to our calibration that HPT starts you with. This also allows enhanced scanning. If you really want to see what's going on in the PCM/Vehicle by scanning, what we offer on the Gen4 PCM is simply unmatched.

The standard scannable parameter set available for Gen4/Gen5 PCM's are so limited, it's ridiculous... We fixed this for Gen4 but haven't fixed it for Gen5. Not sure if we will.


If you buy an Arrow PCM and then wish to use HPT, you will erase whatever the Arrow PCM originally had and will have to start from scratch. In my opinion, you're better off buying an HPT kit from a vendor from this forum and using one of their already tested tunes. You can then keep the HPT kit with the car for the life of the car, or give it to whoever purchases the car in the future. While you have the HPT software, you'll be able to update the tune as the modifications of the car changes.


You will not gain any more or any less power with either system. There's no magic inside the motor, and HPT gives you full access to spark and fuel.


Most of the issues tuners have with limp mode and the HPT systems are simply the tuner trying too many things. We (HPT) provide the tool, not the education on how to use it. I must say Torrie McPhail has done a pretty damn good job at finding the in's and out's of the calibration with our product.

If you push too much airflow with the HPT system, you may run into limp mode issues, even with a stock calibration. I'm not sure exactly where this limit is, 700+ rwhp? I don't know for sure. Plenty of cars are making 650rwhp range with HPT.

I believe the Arrow PCM has this limitation removed. We are working on doing the same.


There are cars running solid cams. Mine, and other Gen4 and Gen5 vehicles... and have been for a long while. My car had this done 1.5 years ago without issue. The implementation is simple. Unplug the phaser. Disable the DTC. That's it. Note: There is a "Number of Variable Camshafts" parameter in VCM Editor. Don't change that.


I'm still finishing up the throttle learn functionality of the HPT software. If you're dead set on an Arrow PCM and simply cannot get to a dealer, at a minimum you could purchase our VCM Scanner software to take care of this learn in your garage. No ETA *soon*.


- Keith @ HP Tuners

[Steve M]

Keith - sorry for the misinformation, but thanks for setting the record straight.

[Jack B]

Keith:

Your comment:
----------------------------------------
"I'm still finishing up the throttle learn functionality of the HPT software. If you're dead set on an Arrow PCM and simply cannot get to a dealer, at a minimum you could purchase our VCM Scanner software to take care of this learn in your garage. No ETA *soon*.[QUOTE=Steve M;113354]Keith - sorry for the misinformation, but thanks for setting the record straight"
--------------------------------------------------------------

If you go back to one of Mark J's comments, Arrow has indicated that the new cam will "stack" up within a range of 7 degrees, therefore, the relearn that the dealer does after the cam install is also a relearn of cam/crank positioning. Are you saying that HPT will also be capable of this 2nd relearn process?

[FLATOUT]

Thanks Keith!

[mjorgensen]

Keith:

Your comment:
----------------------------------------
"I'm still finishing up the throttle learn functionality of the HPT software. If you're dead set on an Arrow PCM and simply cannot get to a dealer, at a minimum you could purchase our VCM Scanner software to take care of this learn in your garage. No ETA *soon*.[QUOTE=Steve M;113354]Keith - sorry for the misinformation, but thanks for setting the record straight"
--------------------------------------------------------------

If you go back to one of Mark J's comments, Arrow has indicated that the new cam will "stack" up within a range of 7 degrees, therefore, the relearn that the dealer does after the cam install is also a relearn of cam/crank positioning. Are you saying that HPT will also be capable of this 2nd relearn process?

The initial mating to the car has to be done at a dealer, this lets the PCM learn the variables for each car as far as sensor range and tolerances that differ from car to car, "stack up".

[ViperSmith]

So the $10,900 question - who all is ordering

[mjorgensen]

So the $10,900 question - who all is ordering

There has been a lot of calls and emails, most people are ok with the pricing, but want to wait and see real world numbers. There have been a half dozen put the money down though already. I think it will be a great seller especially if the price of the potential S/C package is 2X+ as much and over a year out.

[ViperSmith]

I think anyone with a voucher, the price is a steal when you add that in (if they are buying another)

[Crotalidae]

I think anyone with a voucher, the price is a steal when you add that in (if they are buying another)

Very good point!!!

[FLATOUT]

So the $10,900 question - who all is ordering

I think pricing is fine if it was a top of the heap H&C package, but I'm not interested in spending that much for a CNC port with a mild cam. Now then if it does put down more HP that what they are saying then yes I might buy the package.

Based on the HP numbers I am seeing I think I could get very close with a really nice set of ported stock heads, we'll see. I remain open minded about it.

*** BTW this is NOT a knock on the package I am thrilled there are options in the aftermarket that are starting to trickle out.***

[ViperDog]

234/242 with .617 lift is a mild cam??!!

[FLATOUT]

234/242 with .617 lift is a mild cam??!!

Guess I should have said it makes mild power based on the released numbers. When it comes to spending that much money on a package I just want the ability to choose what I want based on what I want the car to do, and how I plan to use it.

For instance we have a Gen 3 down here that went from 500rwhp with boltons SAE to 640rwhp SAE tuned with an SCT handheld. So a gen 3 picks up 140RWHP with a bad ass set of heads and a cam only slightly larger than this one. I will gladly drop the money on something that shows a gain of even half of that number to the rear wheels. It's hard for me to justify spending that much money to only gain 30-40 rwhp. But like I already said I will wait for the cars to hit the dyno and see what they make to the wheels before I make my decision.

[Carbon GTS]

Im with you Andy, not enough power for the money. For that kind of cash going turbo is still an option. At least then for roughly 10-12K more you can make an extra 200-300rwhp.

[KB Viper]

i am in on the package. i do agree that on a NA car .617 is mild but better than the .580ish lift on the stock cam, i get it though, drive-ability was taken into careful consideration when specing this cam. i do have a question for Mark or anyone who knows, would it be an option to put the challenger drag pak cam into the car for those wanting more cam? it's an arrow racing produced and spec'ed cam for the 2011+ drag pak Challenger cars that are built with Viper motors and has .687 lift with more duration. any feedback is appreciated.

[mjorgensen]

i am in on the package. i do agree that on a NA car .617 is mild but better than the .580ish lift on the stock cam, i get it though, drive-ability was taken into careful consideration when specing this cam. i do have a question for Mark or anyone who knows, would it be an option to put the challenger drag pak cam into the car for those wanting more cam? it's an arrow racing produced and spec'ed cam for the 2011+ drag pak Challenger cars that are built with Viper motors and has .687 lift with more duration. any feedback is appreciated.

No way to do this with the piston to valve clearances there are, that is why this is the max you can get it there with the larger valve without redoing everything with the heads. If you changed out the pistons then anything will fit, you would just need a way to custom tune it because at this point Arrow will not be offering anything done custom, just too much time and money to do it.

[Simms]

I like the sound of the package and the added security of the folks who developed, tested and produce it. Just a matter of timing for me.

I'm fortunate enough to still have my 96 when excessive power is needed.

[docwviper]

Happy to have you guys use my car as the mule for the supercharger kit :) I barely drive her as is.


[QUOTE=Jack B;113361]Keith:

Your comment:
----------------------------------------
"I'm still finishing up the throttle learn functionality of the HPT software. If you're dead set on an Arrow PCM and simply cannot get to a dealer, at a minimum you could purchase our VCM Scanner software to take care of this learn in your garage. No ETA *soon*.

The initial mating to the car has to be done at a dealer, this lets the PCM learn the variables for each car as far as sensor range and tolerances that differ from car to car, "stack up".

[ACRucrazy]

So how many people are down for this kit when it comes out?

[FLATOUT]

So how many people are down for this kit when it comes out?

I have quite a running list, and prepaid cars. I got our first set of Test Heads and Cam yesterday. These are right around the corner guys. Spoke with the folks at Arrow yesterday and you can tell how proud they are of what they have put together. I got my car on the dyno Thursday for the baseline and we'll start the install on Monday.

Get ready :D the ViperExchange/Arrow package is going to be awesome!

[ACRucrazy]

I have quite a running list, and prepaid cars. I got our first set of Test Heads and Cam yesterday. These are right around the corner guys. Spoke with the folks at Arrow yesterday and you can tell how proud they are of what they have put together. I got my car on the dyno Thursday for the baseline and we'll start the install on Monday.

Get ready :D the ViperExchange/Arrow package is going to be awesome!

:dude3::dude3::dude3:

I look forward to a build thread with the baseline dyno and other info!

[FLATOUT]

:dude3::dude3::dude3:

I look forward to a build thread with the baseline dyno and other info!

Will do, this is one of two pre production packages not meant for customer cars. Same exact cam specs, valves, valve train,and port work as the production versions. We are finalizing install instructions and the final calibration and then we're literally off to the races.

I'll see what pics I can post ;)

[J TNT]

Subscribed !!! :)

[FLATOUT]

Subscribed !!! :)

I'll start a new thread for the install.

[XTREME SUPERCARS]

I have quite a running list, and prepaid cars. I got our first set of Test Heads and Cam yesterday. These are right around the corner guys. Spoke with the folks at Arrow yesterday and you can tell how proud they are of what they have put together. I got my car on the dyno Thursday for the baseline and we'll start the install on Monday.

Get ready :D the ViperExchange/Arrow package is going to be awesome!

You know I'm interested
Cant wait to see you numbers
Thanks

[FLATOUT]

You know I'm interested
Cant wait to see you numbers
Thanks

Thanks Wayne, email me at awheeler@viperexchange.com if you have any more questions.

Andy

[HANKFAN]

If this heads/cam package hits at least 650rwhp, Arrow is going to have a hard time keeping up with the demand. Should help sell a few new Vipers as well.

[jvm728]

Will this work/apply to gen iv?

[FLATOUT]

If this heads/cam package hits at least 650rwhp, Arrow is going to have a hard time keeping up with the demand. Should help sell a few new Vipers as well.

They (Arrow) hit 650 SAE on a Mustang dyno in the ViperExchange owned mule car that Arrow has been running for awhile now. And if you purchase a new Gen V from Bernie and Courtney at ViperExchange we are throwing in a free install on the stage II heads and cam package. That's a 740hp NA Viper with a 12 month/12,000 mile warranty if installed by us at ViperExchange. Going to be a wicked setup.

[KB Viper]

anyone have any idle clips of a viper with headers and a cam with 115 lobe separation? I'm trying to get an idea of how much lope these beasts will have with this package.

[HANKFAN]

anyone have any idle clips of a viper with headers and a cam with 115 lobe separation? I'm trying to get an idea of how much lope these beasts will have with this package.

I am curious to hear the idle as well.

[mjorgensen]

Will this work/apply to gen iv?

We will be offering the Ge4 version shortly after the Gen5 launch so YES! it will be for you guys also ;-)

[FLATOUT]

I am curious to hear the idle as well.

Motor and Trans are back in the car at ViperExchange. I expect to fire it tomorrow.

[ACRucrazy]

Exciting!

[timberwolf]

Really wish i could have done this but the wife wanted a new kitchen and i got my Viper! Happy with the Arrow pcm and caps thus far! Might need to send her back down at some point! Cant wait for numbers and videos!!!

[Voice of Reason]

You know, maybe I'll have this package installed right before my factory 3/36 warranty runs out. This would be a fun way to get another year of warranty out of the engine. :)

[danny1305]

Can't wait to hear this!!

[Darius]

Motor and Trans are back in the car at ViperExchange. I expect to fire it tomorrow.

You need to find a good photographer-video editor, that will make it. Let's see what it's got!!

[FLATOUT]

Really wish i could have done this but the wife wanted a new kitchen and i got my Viper! Happy with the Arrow pcm and caps thus far! Might need to send her back down at some point! Cant wait for numbers and videos!!!

You have my email awheeler@viperexchange.com.


You know, maybe I'll have this package installed right before my factory 3/36 warranty runs out. This would be a fun way to get another year of warranty out of the engine. :)

And an extra 100 hp :)


Can't wait to hear this!!

I'll do what I can to get something up soon.


You need to find a good photographer-video editor, that will make it. Let's see what it's got!!

Photo part I can handle, video I need to find a solution.

[IndyRon]

anyone have any idle clips of a viper with headers and a cam with 115 lobe separation? I'm trying to get an idea of how much lope these beasts will have with this package.

It's actually much more mild than what I expected. You'd be hard pressed to tell its more aggressive than stock when I heard it at the Ohio Viper Party. I'm looking forward to the dyno results.

[KB Viper]

It's actually much more mild than what I expected. You'd be hard pressed to tell its more aggressive than stock when I heard it at the Ohio Viper Party. I'm looking forward to the dyno results.

What was the name of thread that you posted those idle clips?

[mjorgensen]

Here are a couple clips of the Stage 2 car here at the track with us this weekend, I like the sound and in person it is MUCH better than you can get on the video, I think everyone is going to be very pleased with Arrows work!

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Woodhouse-Motorsports-Division/167968157736

[J TNT]

Just finished touring Arrow Racing with Dick , the stage 2 package sounds freakin awesome and very crisp throttle response ! Those getting this package have a lot to smile about !!! :)

[FLATOUT]

What was the name of thread that you posted those idle clips?

My car is up and running, we fired it up this afternoon. I will be getting the second test kit installed next week and we're off. The ViperExchange/Arrow Heads & Cam is going to be a winner, you guys won't be dissapointed.

Andy